Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win!

[Mr. Wednesday]

Non-official opinion, I'd think they'd retain any magical items they had created, but would lose the ability to create any more.

[DaddyTorgo]

I hate D1-voting. Whether i'm a villager or a wolf I always agonize over it way too much.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Non-official opinion, I'd think they'd retain any magical items they had created, but would lose the ability to create any more.

then that will sway the roles some to more bad than good again depending on where we are in the game.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Absolute shadiest reason I've ever seen you use. To call what I did a defense is practically an out and out lie by itself :P

I gotta agree with tyrith on this one hoops. To me it just seemed like he was takin a jab, makin a joke.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Absolute shadiest reason I've ever seen you use. To call what I did a defense is practically an out and out lie by itself :P

Sure, but I also worry about the trend for voting for Schmidty or ITC or other low posters as default behavior on Day 1. Over time, it becomes the built-in excuse for voting in a certain direction. And while I may or may not agree with the sentiment in a meta-game context, I don't enjoy having to sift through its usage in a given game when determining how much I trust someone.

Or, to be more brief, I'm not going to vote for a quiet guy by default this game. They are going to be around, cleansed or uncleansed, the rest of the way. So this seems like a good game to go against that trend and just play a hunch.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by roles

Magical Roles

Each player will be assigned one of these roles. If you would like you can try to do a role revealing strategy, but note that some of these roles are going to be particular Shadow targets.

Signifier - The player has the powerful magic ability to once each day (as a day action) indicate one statement and learn whether it is true or false. Note that this is not intended to allow coerced situations where everyone is forced to say "I am good!" Such situations muddle the truth and the ability will be wasted.

Warlock - This role allows you to cast a powerful hex on another player, three times per game. This must be done as a night action, you choose another player and they sleep soundly, unable to perform any night actions.

Medium - As a night action you can see through someone else's eyes. What you see might reveal their role, or might reveal nothing.

Artificer - You were the first to study the artifact, and a trickle of shadow energy made its way to you, despite the seals. It has been working through you enough that you believe embracing it would be the ultimate source of power. Each night you can make an action to study one player and determine if they have been embraced by the Shadow or not. You want to protect them, and hope to become one in time. Also, if you are cleansed, you are still loyal to the evil side, and don't have to confess their names.

Alchemist - During the course of the game, you can make three potions, either of Weariness, Alertness, Masking, or Sleep. You can only have one potion at a time - ie, you have to use the first one before you can make the second one. You can't make the same potion more than once.

Diabolist - You specialize in the summoning of demons, a dark and risky magic that is even shunned by most members of the cult. Three times during the game, as a night action, he can choose a player and find out what magical role that player has. He will not learn if a player if affected by the Shadow this way.

Ritualist - You can draw sorcerous circles that can keep magical powers out, or in. Three times per game you can choose to draw a barrier which will protect one room from any outside actions or influences. Players can take actions inside the protected room but they have a higher chance of being noticed. The circles will be drawn as a day action, so message the GM before the deadline if you want to do this, and which room you want to protect.

Spiritmaster - You have expertise in speaking with spirits and the dead. Twice per game you can summon up spirits that will protect the room you're in, guarding against any intrusion at night.

Researcher - You have the ability to identify magical items and have learned much about them. Each night you can pick a magic item from the list and try to find out where it is currently located, if successful you will learn which room it is in or who has it. You can also identify if a potion is a Potion of Darkness.

Sorceror - You care about nothing except magical power. You have quite a lot of it now, and if you were corrupted by the shadow, you're pretty sure you'd have even more. You are immune to magical sleep of any kind.

Summoner - You have a small imp as your creation, that can act independently and follow your orders. Each night you can give it a simple order - "Follow so and so" "Guard me and make sure nothing happens" "Steal an item from Player X." Your pet is not completely reliable, however, and there is a 25% each night that it will not follow your orders.

Augur - You have the power to follow magical trails through the ether. In this case, you can attempt each night to track the shadow (or Sun) energies. If you do so, you have a 50% chance of seeing either where the energy starts or where it finishes, a 25% chance of not seeing anything, and a 25% chance of having the energy focus on you instead!

Theurgist - You can focus a magical field which will block other forms of magic from taking place. Each night you may specify a person, and they will not be able to use any magical abilities. You can't choose the same person more than two nights in a row. Note that this does not give you any knowledge of what their abilities are.

Witch - You have the power to work through people's dreams. Each night you can take a night action to send someone a message through their dreams. The message is necessarily vague and will not always be sent accurately. Alternately, you can use the same action to study someone's dreams. You have to be near them to do this (in the same room) but if you are successful you may learn something about them, including their role and possibly their past actions.

Wizard - Despite being in the coven, you've grown increasingly worried about things here, because you're basically a good person and want to get out. Each night as a night action you can check someone to see if they are a member of the Sun faction. You also have a Sun Amulet which gives you a powerful ability - you can't be corrupted by the Shadow.

Enchanter - You command the power of the enchantments that run through the very walls of the complex. Each night you can specify one room, and you will be notified if any major magical powers are used there (this includes Shadow corruption but also some of the other roles.) You will have a smaller chance to find out who used them.

Craft Mage - You have the ability to build and unbuild magical items. It takes time to build a magical item, but over three night actions, you can make any of the non-potion items on the list. Also, if you choose, you can destroy a magical item. To do this, you have to know the item and who has it.

Elementalist - You have the power to command rock and stone, and can move through them from room to room without being seen. This will also allow you to escape from a magical circle created by the Ritualist.

same rules apply

RED=Bad
BLUE=Good
GREEN=Either

again this is based on not knowing more about the role itself as some could actually move from GREEN to BLUE based on more info being knows I guess.

The ones that jump out at me as more valuable to the Shadow later in the game depending on what that person does with their role are the Craft Mage, Alchemist & Researcher.

[hoopsguy]

Also, I'm not sure "shady" is the correct word. I conceded that the reasoning is marginal, but there are no ulterior motives here that would cause this to drift towards shady.

[Alan T]

Sndvls, the thing about the roles list thats different from the items list is that most of the roles won't benefit the shadow players if I understand correctly. In the rules it states once someone is converted by the shadow, they lose their magical ability (ie: this list).

Obviously the Artificer seems to stand out like a sore thumb, and I have no idea whats meant in the Sorceror role, but the rules clearly state you lose the magical roles if converted to the shadow. The only thing I could think of that would matter is I believe there was an item that helped restore one's magical role if it was lost. My initial assumption on that was based on being cleansed, but I guess perhaps the same could be said if they lost their role due to being converted.

So to me when looking at the list of blues and greens, its not a matter of how useful it is to the good vs bad team as its how useful it is for the good guys vs how important for the bad guys to remove it from the game. (If you follow my logic here).

Or am I understanding the rules incorrectly, it just seems to me that most or all of the magical roles will be unavailable to the players converted by the shadow, so your list's perspective is missing that key point.

[SnDvls]

I have to leave and won't be back in time for lynch, might be in time for the second part so.

Vote Barkeep
don't like the idea of a mass reveal given what I've look at for roles, but feel he might have just been misguided so Vote Mercy

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Sndvls, the thing about the roles list thats different from the items list is that most of the roles won't benefit the shadow players if I understand correctly. In the rules it states once someone is converted by the shadow, they lose their magical ability (ie: this list).

Obviously the Artificer seems to stand out like a sore thumb, and I have no idea whats meant in the Sorceror role, but the rules clearly state you lose the magical roles if converted to the shadow. The only thing I could think of that would matter is I believe there was an item that helped restore one's magical role if it was lost. My initial assumption on that was based on being cleansed, but I guess perhaps the same could be said if they lost their role due to being converted.

So to me when looking at the list of blues and greens, its not a matter of how useful it is to the good vs bad team as its how useful it is for the good guys vs how important for the bad guys to remove it from the game. (If you follow my logic here).

Or am I understanding the rules incorrectly, it just seems to me that most or all of the magical roles will be unavailable to the players converted by the shadow, so your list's perspective is missing that key point.

if some roles get to keep what was already done as a cultest when converted then yes almost all the green will move to blue except the three I noted. If not then all the green move to blue. I'm hoping we'll get a clarification on this to help us.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Some thoughts on the topics of discussion:

1. I do not have a mundane role ability, unless I suck at reading comprehension.
2. I plan on voting for Punishment unless given a reason to do otherwise. This stinks for the person with the Day 1 short straw, just like most Day 1 votes. But it is less harsh in this game than most. We have up to six good targets out there - Sun, Shadow, a sympathizer role, and another that will be more powerful for the enemy than he is for us. I'm none of these roles, so I believe I've got a 6/17 chance of hitting someone that I don't mind losing. Better odds than many games, especially when the penalty does not involve being lost for the duration of the game. And when a cleansed Shadow can potentially yield information on his peers or at the very least game mechanics we don't see. In short, I think Mercy is a poor play.

Why do we care what the Sun does? Their win actually helps us cultists if I read the rules correctly. It bothers me that you want to get rid of the Sun actually. Gives me some focus to day 1.

UnVote KWhit
Vote Hoops

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Or, to be more brief, I'm not going to vote for a quiet guy by default this game. They are going to be around, cleansed or uncleansed, the rest of the way. So this seems like a good game to go against that trend and just play a hunch.

The point that they're going to be around the rest of the way either way is an excellent one. I'm not sure that we can draw any conclusions about whether a quiet person is more or less likely to be one of the corrupted, but the usual incentive for voting for them early (removing the clutter from the game) is completely absent here.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would agree with this, He is at the point where if he didn't call for it people would suspect him.

I'm only on post 100, but I would like to point out that in Alan's last game where I started off good (and was converted to bad) I did not call for mass reveals. My reasoning for mass reveals are, as always, a way to build a COT. More on this, likely, when I'm all caught up.

[Schmidty]

I'm finally awake and here. Catching up, and will hustle to get a vote in by the deadline.

[Joe]

if you voted for me, stop it.

thank you.

[Barkeep49]

Thoughts for the day:

*I'm going to have to start a thread after this game to discuss this whole mass reveal thing, because I really think the villagers err in their failure to do this every game where such an option is available. I'll point out that villagers have a handy way of undermining villager efforts that would out wolves. Just look at how the wolves were all able to skate by, due to villager undermining, after CR introduced his very sound bid strategy.

*I think Hoops was way too inclusive with his 6/17 analysis

*Without role reveals I can't, at this time, voting for mercy. I think preventing someone from using their powers for one day simply do not justify the potential good of finding a bad guy. I will, however, reconsider on a case by case basis where there have been role reveals, real or otherwise.

*I think the insight that quiet players are around for the whole game is very astute and am torn. On the one hand, I love the idea hoops presented of why going away from the vote quiet on D1 makes sense for this game. On the other hand, I think they screw us over more than normal since we're going to have so many posts to go through and they'll have no record compared to active players. Having some reasonable understanding that they're good seems like more of an incentive to vote for them than normal.

Anyone have a vote count? Seems like it's time to start coalesicing around people. I seem to be one of those people, which is a shame, but the price I pay for trying to introduce an idea that would do more good than harm for the whole, but is risky to an individual.

[Tyrith]

I'd rather clear the quiet players now, when we have nothing to really go on, and then let them sit there if they're going to be quiet, then have to try to find them out later, when their quietness will mean there will be less of a trail to find them.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Barkeep, while I generally agree with you on the mass reveal thing, I don't see how mass reveals here are going to do anything to show anybody beyond possibly the original Shadow. The way the mechanic is laid out, I think it's highly likely that the second shadow started out with a role, and so would be able to reveal confidently.

Would the value of possibly outing the Artificer or the Sorceror be enough to offset the negative of outing the truly useful roles?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, actually, I don't think I generally agree on the mass reveal thing. I think in some instances it's worthwhile, and in others it's not, and it always depends on the value of the information revealed to the villagers vs. to the wolves.

[DaddyTorgo]

dinner and I won't be back in time to get a vote in

VOTE KWHIT

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

dinner and I won't be back in time to get a vote in

VOTE KWHIT

You have to also vote for mercy or punishment too.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Barkeep, while I generally agree with you on the mass reveal thing, I don't see how mass reveals here are going to do anything to show anybody beyond possibly the original Shadow. The way the mechanic is laid out, I think it's highly likely that the second shadow started out with a role, and so would be able to reveal confidently.

Would the value of possibly outing the Artificer or the Sorceror be enough to offset the negative of outing the truly useful roles?

Fair enough. I can respect this POV.

[Joe]

vote mercy

[BrianD]

I'm really sad St. Cronin isn't in this game. He always make a good default Day 1 vote for me.

This game is interesting in that the quiet players will be around for the whole game. It almost seems like being cleansed is the best way to get into a COT. Those guys will lose their abilities, but they will still be a nice batch of "normal" villagers.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I guess one thing we might want to think about up-front is, are there any particular roles we have a particular interest in protecting (so that if they were on the block, we would go mercy rather than cleanse)? Any roles that are subject to cleansing immediately?

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm going to start with my punishment vote. I don't see that we gain a whole lot by mercy, unless we find that we have a role we can't do without on the block.

VOTE PUNISHMENT

[Alan T]

As of post #175, Imthecrew will be voted for with 3 votes and Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith all have chosen to punish him. Its pretty close right now with 20 min left, so I would highly suggest if Imthecrew wishes to not be cleansed he give others a reason to not cleanse him.



(3) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143)
(2) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119)
(2) Barkeep - Joe (106), Sndvls (159)
(1) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161)
(1) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Schmidty - Path (135)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

(6) Punishment - Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith
(4) Mercy - Ntndeacon, Swaggs, Sndvls, Joe


No votes:


2) BrianD
6) Barkeep49
10) Schmidty
11) Mr. Wednesday
14) ImTheCrew

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm a little up in the air about who I would want to vote for, though... anybody want to volunteer?

[Mr. Wednesday]

VOTE CHIEF RUM

It's day 1, so obviously I don't have a reason.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Hmm... I may rethink that, with the option to switch punishment, it may not be a great idea to vote for someone who's not here in the rethinking interval.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

(3) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143)
(2) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119)
(2) Barkeep - Joe (106), Sndvls (159)
(1) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161)
(1) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Schmidty - Path (135)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

Redone with colors of mercy/punishment incorporated.

[Barkeep49]

Ok I now have 3 people I could reasonably vote for:
CR, Joe, and ITC

I'm disinclined to vote for CR since I think he's the best villager around. That means I'm left to decide between Joe and and ITC. Since Joe has voted for me I think that's enough to win my my vote.

Therefore I'm going to

Vote Joe with Punishment

[BrianD]

Vote Hoopsguy

I'm not sure why, something just didn't feel right with him.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm disinclined to vote for CR since I think he's the best villager around.

If he's the best villager around wouldn't you almost want to vote for him, get him cleared even at the cost of his role, and put him to work?

[path12]

I've got to run and since ITC hasn't said anything one way or the other after getting votes I'll go that way.

UNVOTE SCHMIDTY
VOTE ITC

VOTE PUNISHMENT

The arguments for punishment swayed me.

[Alan T]

Barkeep just tied up the vote. We have a little more then 10 min left, what do people think are pros/cons of a tie in this game? It says it will be resolved in some magical manner, and if none is available there will be no punishment.

THe last part of that gives me enough reason to stick with my standard feeling on ties. If a tie likely will end in no lynch, then they are bad bad bad. If forced, I will move my vote to untie it. I am curious to why Barkeep chose to tie it there though even if it could mean in no lynch. That usually isn't a very good thing.

[Joe]

time to change my vote

unvote barkeep

vote imthecrew

[Barkeep49]

Through 185:

(4) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143), Path (185)
(3) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119), Barkeep(182)
(2) Barkeep - Joe (106), Sndvls (159)
(2) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161), BrianD (183)
(2) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103), Mr.Wednesday (180)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Alan, I think path just untied it.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I guess one thing we might want to think about up-front is, are there any particular roles we have a particular interest in protecting (so that if they were on the block, we would go mercy rather than cleanse)? Any roles that are subject to cleansing immediately?

I'm going to say yes

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, and Joe really untied it.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Alan, I think path just untied it.

Yeah, he posted at the same time as me. Its now:



(5) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143), Path12 (185), Joe (187)
(3) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119), Barkeep (182)
(2) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161), BrianD (183)
(2) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103), Mr.Wednesday (179)
(1) Barkeep - Sndvls (159)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

(9) Punishment - Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith, Mr.Wednesday, Barkeep, Path12
(4) Mercy - Ntndeacon, Swaggs, Sndvls, Joe


No votes:


10) Schmidty
14) ImTheCrew

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Barkeep just tied up the vote. We have a little more then 10 min left, what do people think are pros/cons of a tie in this game? It says it will be resolved in some magical manner, and if none is available there will be no punishment.

THe last part of that gives me enough reason to stick with my standard feeling on ties. If a tie likely will end in no lynch, then they are bad bad bad. If forced, I will move my vote to untie it. I am curious to why Barkeep chose to tie it there though even if it could mean in no lynch. That usually isn't a very good thing.

I'm sad to be called on it, but surprised you didn't figure out the rationale:

I don't actually believe that there is no mechanism for resolving ties. Therefore, I feel a tie would have given us a defacto role reveal. More public information = good thing for the villagers.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm sad to be called on it, but surprised you didn't figure out the rationale:

I don't actually believe that there is no mechanism for resolving ties. Therefore, I feel a tie would have given us a defacto role reveal. More public information = good thing for the villagers.

Thats a pretty risky thing to wage an entire's day lynch on. How do you know if there is such a thing, that it is not at the hands of Imthecrew himself? Or someone who already is gone for the day and won't use it. Or someone who can't use it until some item is found or created for them which hasn't happened yet, or etc etc etc.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Thats a pretty risky thing to wage an entire's day lynch on. How do you know if there is such a thing, that it is not at the hands of Imthecrew himself? Or someone who already is gone for the day and won't use it. Or someone who can't use it until some item is found or created for them which hasn't happened yet, or etc etc etc.

I don't. But then again I would also point out that the tie was easily broken, and then double broken, since I've cast my vote.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Thats a pretty risky thing to wage an entire's day lynch on. How do you know if there is such a thing, that it is not at the hands of Imthecrew himself? Or someone who already is gone for the day and won't use it. Or someone who can't use it until some item is found or created for them which hasn't happened yet, or etc etc etc.

I would also suggest that these out comes are less likely than having the tie breaking be part of a player's role.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Since I put the roles out there, my thoughts are...

On the bad side:
Artificer - probably should be cleansed, more to deny him to the shadow than for what he can do on his own
Sorceror - probably should be cleansed, out of concern over whether he gets more power if corrupted

On the good side:
Signifier - probably worth saving
Enchanter - probably worth saving

The Augur's seer abilities would be extremely useful, but the relatively high risk of rebound of Shadow energy means that I'm not putting them on the automatic keep list.

I don't think any of the other magical roles have enough usefulness to either side to be worth saving or cleansing.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I would also suggest that these out comes are less likely than having the tie breaking be part of a player's role.

Which often times is the case is based on whom they voted on themselves. Considering only 8 of the 18 players (less than 50%) are actually involved in today's tiebreaker right now, and even less at the time of the tie, that once again is a pretty big reach.

I'm finding it odd that you are so defensive over a very common discussion/topic.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Which often times is the case is based on whom they voted on themselves. Considering only 8 of the 18 players (less than 50%) are actually involved in today's tiebreaker right now, and even less at the time of the tie, that once again is a pretty big reach.

I'm finding it odd that you are so defensive over a very common discussion/topic.

I find it odd that you thought I was defensive.

[DaddyTorgo]

I knew i'd be back in time for the punishment/ mercy deadline though alan. Just knew it'd be tight with the vote deadline