The Official 2016-17 NBA Regular Season Thread

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

The Heat rolled out the tanktastic starting lineup of Willie Reed, Luke Babbitt, Wayne Ellington, Rodney McGruder, and Josh Richardson yesterday. To recap Miami's post-LeBron 'rebuild' thus far...

It's unfair not to mention the Chris Bosh situation, which wasn't just a CEI, but also put them in limbo for basically an FA period & a trade deadline. I won't call Winslow a bust for a #11 pick, but he has not progressed as hoped (thank god the Hornets turned down the Celtics offer during that draft), though he's one of several wing players who at least look.like NBA rotation guys, which is more than you can say about the Nets. They're just desperately missing a 2nd big, and if Bosh was healthy they're probably #4 in the East.

Originally Posted by Atocep

He's young, but Brandon Ingram doesn't look like he has the ceiling as a scorer that was projected. I don't think it's much to ask the #2 pick that's been playing relatively heavy minutes to shoot better than 34/24/70 with a TS% of 43% and a PER of 6.4.

Originally Posted by nol

It's probably too much to ask from the #2 pick in the 2016 NBA draft, which categorically sucks. Pretty sure I settled on 'better version of Rashard Lewis,' which is still well within reach considering that Lewis wasn't even good enough to see the floor at that age (4.5 PER, 40% TS in just 150 minutes his rookie season).

I mean Kris Dunn, awesome streetball dribble aside, is 3 years older and has a 45% TS and 9.5 PER, so it's not like anyone selected after Ingram would be giving the Lakers any regrets.

We all knew Ingram had to fill out, but his quickness & first step is also being questioned which is the worrisome part. Way too early to declare anything, but I certainly wouldn't trade Jaylen Brown for him & Jamal Murray is the other guy who has shown flashes of elite NBA skills.

More importantly for the 2017 Celtics, there have been a lot of amazing seasons but I think Isaiah is flying under the radar even after his insane last two weeks. He somehow keeps upping his true shooting % & keeping a TO rate under 10% all while raising his usage rate to new heights, which shouldn't be possible for a 5'9 PG. 29/15 on 18 shots with 1 TO tonight after dropping 52 on 26 with 2 TO's & 31/9 on 13 shots with only 3 TO's vs the Cavs. According to B-Ref PER he's in that top 11 with Russ, Giannis, Harden, DMC, AD, KD, CP3, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler & LeBron, with a solid gap down to DeRozan, Lowry, Kemba, John Wall, Kyrie (not to mention Steph & Lillard), yet I'd bet there's a bigger % of fans who'd say he's not an All-Star than consider him a potential starter. So glad for dysfunctional organizations like the Kings & Suns that gave up on him.

Now, overall the defensive rebounding is still capping our overall ceiling & won't be fixed internally. (Though Ante Zizic looks like a good fit in that rebounding/interior toughness/bully scorer vs smallball 5's role, but unfortunately 2 or 3 years down the line.) Just need Philly to finally trade Nerlens! I still think a package centered around Smart for Noel makes so much sense for both sides (Smart, Zizic or Yabu & our 2018 #1?)

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's unfair not to mention the Chris Bosh situation, which wasn't just a CEI, but also put them in limbo for basically an FA period & a trade deadline.

How did it put them in limbo? If Bosh had been completely healthy, most teams would have been loathe to trade for a guy signed to a max deal until he's 36. At this point it helps them since they can now clear his salary earlier to pitch some max free agents on coming to South Beach to team up with their young guys plus whichever high lotto pick they get. I mean, from Chris Bosh's point of view he believes he can still play and the Heat are intentionally holding him out and preventing him from signing with another team for this very reason - it's a weird situation all around.

When Bosh did play the last couple years he was doing well enough that his diagnosis was a total surprise, but the team was still not that great as a whole. Miami was well under .500 at the All-Star break in '14-15 and with a healthy Bosh for the rest of the season would have just done well enough to knock the Winslow pick down a few notches and give it to Philadelphia. Then last season he didn't coexist with Whiteside very well on the floor.

We all knew Ingram had to fill out, but his quickness & first step is also being questioned which is the worrisome part. Way too early to declare anything, but I certainly wouldn't trade Jaylen Brown for him & Jamal Murray is the other guy who has shown flashes of elite NBA skills.

Well yeah, you generally need muscles to be quick and explosive.

... Despite his athletic abilities he lacks elite explosiveness ... He has to bulk up, working especially in the lower body since he’s definitely too skinny to face NBA opponents at the moment

He's still working on his balance on the defensive end, and isn't an incredibly explosive leaper—something that could change as his lower body strength improves.

Those are things draft sites said about Giannis in 2013 so I wouldn't be particularly worried in that regard. Murray, Brown, and Ingram are all currently in the same realm of suckiness to the point that none of them have distinguished themselves at the NBA level to change what you would have thought about them 6 months ago.

More importantly for the 2017 Celtics, there have been a lot of amazing seasons but I think Isaiah is flying under the radar even after his insane last two weeks. He somehow keeps upping his true shooting % & keeping a TO rate under 10% all while raising his usage rate to new heights, which shouldn't be possible for a 5'9 PG. 29/15 on 18 shots with 1 TO tonight after dropping 52 on 26 with 2 TO's & 31/9 on 13 shots with only 3 TO's vs the Cavs. According to B-Ref PER he's in that top 11 with Russ, Giannis, Harden, DMC, AD, KD, CP3, Kawhi, Jimmy Butler & LeBron, with a solid gap down to DeRozan, Lowry, Kemba, John Wall, Kyrie (not to mention Steph & Lillard), yet I'd bet there's a bigger % of fans who'd say he's not an All-Star than consider him a potential starter. So glad for dysfunctional organizations like the Kings & Suns that gave up on him.

I can't think of a case in which PER is better than BPM, and Isaiah Thomas certainly would not be the exception to the rule. Between Lowry, Kyrie, Wall, Kemba, and Isaiah there will be a very good PG that doesn't make the All-Star team, and Thomas certainly doesn't stand out among those other four once you factor in defense in the slightest way. The flip side of the NBA's versatility is that in addition to all the big guys who can shoot threes and guard some on the perimeter, there are quite a few guards who have the post skills to take advantage of the mismatch on Thomas. So I guess you could count me among those who would consider him more likely to not be an All-Star (as in he's having an awesome year but someone will get the short end of the stick and there's some non-zero chance it's him) than to start (he's definitely not better than Lowry at least).

As far as 'giving up on him' goes, the entire league effectively gave up on him based on what he got paid the last time he was a free agent; if Boston thought he was going to be this good, it would have been easy for them to have signed him as a starter for even less money than he's currently getting. They even used a first round pick on Terry Rozier the summer after they acquired Thomas, so I'd definitely be quicker to credit Thomas himself for improving this much rather than the Celtics for knowing he was such a hidden gem.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

How did it put them in limbo? If Bosh had been completely healthy, most teams would have been loathe to trade for a guy signed to a max deal until he's 36. At this point it helps them since they can now clear his salary earlier to pitch some max free agents on coming to South Beach to team up with their young guys plus whichever high lotto pick they get. I mean, from Chris Bosh's point of view he believes he can still play and the Heat are intentionally holding him out and preventing him from signing with another team for this very reason - it's a weird situation all around.

When Bosh did play the last couple years he was doing well enough that his diagnosis was a total surprise, but the team was still not that great as a whole. Miami was well under .500 at the All-Star break in '14-15 and with a healthy Bosh for the rest of the season would have just done well enough to knock the Winslow pick down a few notches and give it to Philadelphia. Then last season he didn't coexist with Whiteside very well on the floor.

They had just traded for (a huge PG upgrade in) Dragic when the first blood clot scare came up, were the #3 seed in the East last year, and I'm confident the upgrade from Josh McRoberts/Luke Babbitt/Derrick Williams to Chris Bosh, plus possibly re-signing DWade this past offseason if Bosh was healthy would be enough to have them on pace for 45-50 wins again.

Bosh's contract does not go until he's 36, Goran Dragic's contract is fine and they can probably recoup a 1st round pick if they trade him, and we have little idea how those 2 & Whiteside would've meshed because they had half a season together (& Wade was still around so they couldn't give the keys to Dragic and let that chemistry develop faster.)

Would they be better off if they tore it down completely after LBJ left town? On the slim chance they got KAT (or Simmons?) I guess so, but most of the bad little moves were made when LeBron was there (or in the Shabazz case, still pulling the strings even when he was a FA), and sometimes career ending injuries to your best player and a borderline Hall of Famer have a way of messing up plans.

Well yeah, you generally need muscles to be quick and explosive.

Aww, thanks Doc! That's why guys are constantly improving their lateral quickness and verticals in the NBA throughout their NBA careers and guys like Zach Lavine have such strong looking legs, right?

Ingram possibly hasn't completely finished going through puberty yet so there might be some projection left, but saying that first step quickness and leaping ability peak earlier than physical strength isn't rocket surgery, and Ingram's has been even more questionable than it looked at Duke, and so far behind the guy (KD) his biggest fans and Laker stans still hope he can become that that comparison is pretty much off the table. Ingram has much better length, but a guy like Evan Turner shows how hard it is to create offense when you don't have that quickness, even if you're smart and extremely skilled.

Those are things draft sites said about Giannis in 2013 so I wouldn't be particularly worried in that regard. Murray, Brown, and Ingram are all currently in the same realm of suckiness to the point that none of them have distinguished themselves at the NBA level to change what you would have thought about them 6 months ago.

Giannis isn't a fair comparison for anyone, and nobody saw him close to as much as any player like Ingram who did the US AAU/Camp/NCAA circuit. It sucks that he came from so far off the map that his pre-draft measurements aren't available, but he also grew multiple inches after being drafted and lost no coordination, which isn't something you can project anyone to do.

You can disagree, but Brown has exceeded expectations in multiple areas, shown an ability to already get to the rim/FT line and play defense that give him a much higher floor than Ingram, and while the results may or may not come his outside shooting form is much better than people thought going into the draft. It's still early enough things will change, but since that draft Brown & Murray's stock has gone up, while Ingram and Dunn's have gone down (and you have other very raw players like Chriss & Bender who haven't changed.) But I doubt you'll find anyone arguing that Ingram should've been the #1 pick, or that the Celtics reached/messed up taking Jaylen.
[/quote]I can't think of a case in which PER is better than BPM, and Isaiah Thomas certainly would not be the exception to the rule. Between Lowry, Kyrie, Wall, Kemba, and Isaiah there will be a very good PG that doesn't make the All-Star team, and Thomas certainly doesn't stand out among those other four once you factor in defense in the slightest way.[/quote]Just like defensive stats in baseball, when James Harden has a better dBPM than Kawhi I take those results with a grain of salt. But fine, if you want to use BPM he's well ahead of Kyrie and all 5 are light years ahead of Demar DeRozan.

I've seen NBA writers pushing the same line about 5 good East PG's & not enough spots but with Butler & Giannis listed in the frontcourt I don't 100% agree. Even if DWade gets a legacy spot & chooses to play that assumes DeRozan makes it & he simply hasn't been as good as them even though he's soaking up more than his share of coverage. If Melo gets the legacy spot he just bumps Porzingis from the team imo.

The flip side of the NBA's versatility is that in addition to all the big guys who can shoot threes and guard some on the perimeter, there are quite a few guards who have the post skills to take advantage of the mismatch on Thomas. So I guess you could count me among those who would consider him more likely to not be an All-Star (as in he's having an awesome year but someone will get the short end of the stick and there's some non-zero chance it's him) than to start (he's definitely not better than Lowry at least).

As far as 'giving up on him' goes, the entire league effectively gave up on him based on what he got paid the last time he was a free agent; if Boston thought he was going to be this good, it would have been easy for them to have signed him as a starter for even less money than he's currently getting. They even used a first round pick on Terry Rozier the summer after they acquired Thomas, so I'd definitely be quicker to credit Thomas himself for improving this much rather than the Celtics for knowing he was such a hidden gem.

Of course we didn't think he was this good, but we did think he was more valuable than Phoenix! (And you know I love Rozier's athletic potential, but you go BPA all day outside the lottery... plus we've literally picked a first rounder at every position in the last 2 years. Picking RJ Hunter didn't mean we were trying to replace Bradley.)

The defensive knock on him is true to an extent but also overblown. Kyle Lowry & Kemba aren't winning many post battles either, Kyrie's effort is hit or miss (though still a huge improvement over anything preceding last year's playoffs), and you can run down all the Western PG's except Chris Paul the same way. Though it's fallen off this year (partially due to a horrendous November stretch when Horford & Crowder missed a lot of time) Celtics finished 4th in the NBA last year in dRtg despite poor defensive rebounding and no rim protection. If Isaiah's as bad and easy to take advantage of as people claim that wouldn't be possible. Quickness, understanding a scheme and having chemistry, and simply paying attention off ball go a long way in team defense.

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

They had just traded for (a huge PG upgrade in) Dragic when the first blood clot scare came up, were the #3 seed in the East last year, and I'm confident the upgrade from Josh McRoberts/Luke Babbitt/Derrick Williams to Chris Bosh, plus possibly re-signing DWade this past offseason if Bosh was healthy would be enough to have them on pace for 45-50 wins again.

All that could have been had for the low cost of having the highest payroll in the league, being built around 3 old guys and Whiteside (who is 27 and not going to improve all that much), and being two first round picks in the hole! 45 wins this year is good for losing in the first round to Charlotte (which they almost did last year as well). The Heat actually rallied last season after Bosh went out because it forced them to play small more often - and they had the personnel to do so mostly because Joe Johnson could have gone to any contender when bought out but chose Miami because it's in Miami.

Bosh's contract does not go until he's 36, Goran Dragic's contract is fine and they can probably recoup a 1st round pick if they trade him, and we have little idea how those 2 & Whiteside would've meshed because they had half a season together (& Wade was still around so they couldn't give the keys to Dragic and let that chemistry develop faster.)

Miami's original starting lineup of Dragic, Wade, Deng, Bosh, and Whiteside got outscored for the season last year, so that's a decent idea of how they would have meshed (even with Bosh missing time, that lineup played more minutes than any other the Heat used all season - 338 with the second-closest being 196). To put that in perspective, even weaker teams (the Blazers and Pelicans this season, for example) tend to have a positive scoring margin when their usual starting five plays together. Not good when the scoring margin is negative and 4 of those guys are basically getting paid the max. Bosh is/was best as a stretch 5 and obviously he couldn't do that with Whiteside.

I would definitely question how 'fine' Dragic's contract is considering how few teams are in need of a point guard. If a team's point guard is worse than Dragic (not saying he sucks but he's certainly not in the top half of starting PGs at this point), that team is definitely going to be drafting high enough that giving up a first-round pick for him would be insane. And then of course this time next year there will be a half-dozen more point guards on rookie deals whose teams would not want to give up anything for Dragic to come in and block the younger player's PT, so good luck moving him then.

I typo'd 36 instead of 33 but Bosh would have been paid over $26 million in 2018-19 when he wasn't worth quite that much even when healthy in 2014-15 - that contract would have been a major albatross, especially when you consider that Winslow and Richardson would have been up for free agency by then.

Would they be better off if they tore it down completely after LBJ left town? On the slim chance they got KAT (or Simmons?) I guess so, but most of the bad little moves were made when LeBron was there (or in the Shabazz case, still pulling the strings even when he was a FA), and sometimes career ending injuries to your best player and a borderline Hall of Famer have a way of messing up plans.

Well, LeBron left pretty much because of those poor moves (obviously the Heat got zero from anyone else during his final playoffs there, and then stuff like the owner not wanting to go into the luxury tax to keep Mike Miller around), and Miami/Pat Riley chose to be petty and try to stick it to him rather than realistically assess where the rest of the team was at that point. Miami already had to tank for Justise Winslow, is tanking again this season, and will have to tank again next year to keep their top-6 protected pick, so yeah it probably would have been better to tear down from the start. Bosh having blood clots did ruin their plan to become the Brooklyn Nets circa 2013, which is a plan certainly in need of ruining.

Aww, thanks Doc! That's why guys are constantly improving their lateral quickness and verticals in the NBA throughout their NBA careers and guys like Zach Lavine have such strong looking legs, right?

OK this is seriously flabbergasting. Yes, NBA players tend to become significantly quicker, stronger and more athletic by the prime of their careers than what they were at age 18-19, if that was something that needed asserting. I would without question say that Zach LaVine's legs look much stronger than they did when he was at UCLA. He probably weighs 10 pounds more than he did a couple years ago and can actually dunk in NBA games from time to time rather than just dunk contests.

Just like defensive stats in baseball, when James Harden has a better dBPM than Kawhi I take those results with a grain of salt. But fine, if you want to use BPM he's well ahead of Kyrie and all 5 are light years ahead of Demar DeRozan.

You didn't seem to be taking PER with a grain of salt. Anyway, the Harden/Kawhi numbers are not too surprising because:

1) they are close enough that "the numbers" don't come close to definitively saying one is better than the other due to the inherent uncertainty in any statistical observation. There's less of that with Isaiah Thomas being around -4 when the other point guards are in that -1 range.
2) Harden is definitely trying harder on defense this year. Rockets are better defensively this year despite losing Howard, hiring a 'no defense' coach, and relying on newcomers like Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon who nobody ever mistook for defensive stoppers. Even then I'm guessing something like real plus-minus or player tracking plus-minus would further separate Harden and Leonard because of a specific outlier thing players like Harden and Westbrook do, whereas a box score metric is a bit more conservative when it comes to assuming that each player has a relatively equal share in his team's defensive success.
3) A lot of teams have gameplanned to reduce Kawhi's defensive impact this year by just allowing him lock up his assignment and playing 4 on 4 with the other guys. The Spurs are still very good defensively, but their difference in defensive rating from last year to this year is equivalent to the gap between the #1 (Golden State) and #21 (Washington) defense this year.

If Isaiah's as bad and easy to take advantage of as people claim that wouldn't be possible.

Sure it is. For starters, it's been taken advantage of in the playoffs fairly regularly. Teams that are bad and/or playing at lower intensity take advantage of it as well but Isaiah just takes advantage of them more on the other end.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

All that could have been had for the low cost of having the highest payroll in the league, being built around 3 old guys and Whiteside (who is 27 and not going to improve all that much), and being two first round picks in the hole! 45 wins this year is good for losing in the first round to Charlotte (which they almost did last year as well).

So we're back to championship or blow it all up? I supported Philly's decision to tank, but if Mickey Arison & Pat Riley wanted to win 45-50 games and hope a superstar chose Miami because it's Miami (or secretly hoped LeBron opted out of Cleveland after a year or two and came back) I don't blame them either. Is a team like Toronto that effectively has a 0% chance to win a title this year and no obvious path to winning a title, while being built around a 30 year old who will be opting out and demanding a long term contract dumb too? Or a Houston team hoping a 45-50 win team in a prime NBA destination is a better path to attracting that needed star than tanking?

Miami's original starting lineup of Dragic, Wade, Deng, Bosh, and Whiteside got outscored for the season last year, so that's a decent idea of how they would have meshed (even with Bosh missing time, that lineup played more minutes than any other the Heat used all season - 338 with the second-closest being 196). To put that in perspective, even weaker teams (the Blazers and Pelicans this season, for example) tend to have a positive scoring margin when their usual starting five plays together. Not good when the scoring margin is negative and 4 of those guys are basically getting paid the max. Bosh is/was best as a stretch 5 and obviously he couldn't do that with Whiteside.

Just like how LeBron, Kyrie & Love are still improving their understanding of each other after 3 years of heavy minutes together, maybe the chemistry would have come, maybe it wouldn't have. Not all gambles work out. But singling out and writing a synopsis of their failure without mentioning that they had an all-star in medical limbo for a year before being declared out with a CEI is odd.

I would definitely question how 'fine' Dragic's contract is considering how few teams are in need of a point guard. If a team's point guard is worse than Dragic (not saying he sucks but he's certainly not in the top half of starting PGs at this point), that team is definitely going to be drafting high enough that giving up a first-round pick for him would be insane. And then of course this time next year there will be a half-dozen more point guards on rookie deals whose teams would not want to give up anything for Dragic to come in and block the younger player's PT, so good luck moving him then.

Question it all you want, and opinions from anonymous scouts are worth the pixels they're displayed on, buf consensus is if he gets traded it's for a 1st round pick. A protected or future 1st for sure, but it's still positive trade value.

I typo'd 36 instead of 33 but Bosh would have been paid over $26 million in 2018-19 when he wasn't worth quite that much even when healthy in 2014-15 - that contract would have been a major albatross, especially when you consider that Winslow and Richardson would have been up for free agency by then.

He struggled in 2014-15 without a Point Guard when asked to be a focal point, which is a big part of why they traded for Dragic... And he was back in line with his career efficiency and 25th amongst qualified players in win shares per 48 minutes in 2015-16 until being re-declared out. He might have fallen off a cliff, but "Chris Bosh's skill level and on-court performance" vs "Chris Bosh's medical situation" is an odd interpretation of the problem since that contract was signed.

When things didn't work out they quickly pivoted to the tanking that you're advocating for more teams, they'll basically be tied for the lowest payroll once Feb 9 rolls around and they can apply for relief from his cap hit, if they trade Dragic they'll probably only be down 1 future 1st round pick, and the only 4 players signed past next year (Dragic, Whiteside, Winslow, Johnson) all have positive trade value. It's fun to see Pat Riley fail & the on court product the next 3 months will be ugly, but they're not in a bad spot considering just how unlucky they got with the drawn out Bosh saga.

[Atocep]

On a side note with the Isaiah talk, my son goes to the same school he did in University Place here in Washington. Last summer I was in a subway in a not so good part of Tacoma and Isaiah came in. Seemed like an incredibly down to earth person. He was recognized by someone and then stopped to take pictures with anyone that asked, signed some stuff, and talked to someone he went to Curtis High School with before leaving.

[Groundhog]

Kyle Korver to Cavs? I'll take it.

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

So we're back to championship or blow it all up? I supported Philly's decision to tank, but if Mickey Arison & Pat Riley wanted to win 45-50 games and hope a superstar chose Miami because it's Miami (or secretly hoped LeBron opted out of Cleveland after a year or two and came back) I don't blame them either.

Which they could have done by just trying to sign other players after LeBron left and Bosh turned down their initial offer. They could've done with Wade what Dallas has done with Dirk for the last few years, but they doubled down on trying to build a mediocre veteran team in an effort to stick it to LeBron. When you have Bosh signed long-term, that's one fewer superstar that can choose Miami.

Just like how LeBron, Kyrie & Love are still improving their understanding of each other after 3 years of heavy minutes together, maybe the chemistry would have come, maybe it wouldn't have. Not all gambles work out.

Kinda like that, except that in their first year together the trio of Love, James, and Irving was already outscoring opponents by 13.6 points per 100 possessions (which has not-so-drastically improved all the way up to 14.8 now; Bosh, Wade and Dragic were +0.7 together last year). If the players are talented enough, they will at least occasionally be able to work well together from the start. This should hold particularly true if you're talking about 3 (or more) highly-paid players because without as much money to spend on everyone else, it should be expected that the bench/supporting cast is going to give a few points back. Main difference with the Cavs in the regular season is that they have gotten rid of guys like Varejao and Waiters and brought in players like JR Smith, Channing Frye, and now Kyle Korver.

He struggled in 2014-15 without a Point Guard when asked to be a focal point, which is a big part of why they traded for Dragic... And he was back in line with his career efficiency and 25th amongst qualified players in win shares per 48 minutes in 2015-16 until being re-declared out. He might have fallen off a cliff, but "Chris Bosh's skill level and on-court performance" vs "Chris Bosh's medical situation" is an odd interpretation of the problem since that contract was signed.

No, you just said the problem with his skill level and on-court performance: If your team's best and highest-paid player is the 25th-best player in the league (11th-highest salary currently), that's not going to amount to anything in the playoffs - the 25th-best player isn't even an all-star if the conferences are evenly balanced! What you continue to not get is that the contract would not have been even halfway over at this point in time, and that downside would have represented a much longer 'limbo' period than what the Heat had to go through (especially considering Miami didn't even play Whiteside until Bosh was out).

[wustin]

The rich get richer.

[Chief Rum]

While Korver certainly brings a skillset as a shooter which will help the Cavs, he isn't nearly the player he was early on. This is really just a replacement for JR Smith while he is sidelined

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

While Korver certainly brings a skillset as a shooter which will help the Cavs, he isn't nearly the player he was early on. This is really just a replacement for JR Smith while he is sidelined

When was Korver a great of a player? His number this season are in line with his career averages. He should have a lot more open shots and he's an upgrade from JR as he likes to pass the ball. The question is whether he will figure out like Love did that when you get the ball you need to shoot the open shot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

When was Korver a great of a player? His number this season are in line with his career averages. He should have a lot more open shots and he's an upgrade from JR as he likes to pass the ball. The question is whether he will figure out like Love did that when you get the ball you need to shoot the open shot.

Probably not a big problem for Korver.
Current season catch-and-shoot stats
JR avgs 5.6 of those per game, Korver averages 4.8 per game (playing just 1 min less per game) but with a bit better EFG%

Last season, c&s attempts for the two were just a half shot per game diff

NBA.com/Stats | Players Catch & Shoot

[whomario]

While we are on the topic of great shooters (solid move for the Cavs)

[nol]

I think Korver is supposed to be an upgrade over Dunleavy (shooting 35% off mostly open LeBron looks is really struggling) rather than Smith. It's a nice coincidence that he can play some minutes as the SG while Smith recovers, but he's just another shooter they can have out there who will also keep everyone's minutes lower until the Finals.

The kind of job Cavs' front office has done the past couple years is why I'm never impressed by the mediocre teams that just tread water - a team can improve itself so much if it really wants to be aggressive in using future draft picks and trade exceptions and has a good idea of the type of basketball it is best off playing.

How about Giannis? I feel like every game the past few weeks I've watched him thinking "there is no way he's actually one of the 5-10 best players right now at age 22," but it's getting hard to deny that. He even shoots it well enough as of late, and his overall defensive positioning/effort is sound enough that it certainly doesn't cancel out the insane amount of steals and blocks he gets.

[RainMaker]

I was thinking about the trade deadline and wondering should anyone besides the Cavs and Warriors bother upgrading this year?

[CrescentMoonie]

John Wall with a nice 18 and 18 game tonight. Wizards haven't lost at home since December 6. Only 3-12 on the road though, so they're still a game below .500 overall and a half game out of a playoff spot.

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by whomario

While we are on the topic of great shooters (solid move for the Cavs)

As a NH native, I followed Matt's career from HS, to UF, to the NBA. Certainly one of the most successful NH athletes ever - which admittedly isn't saying much.

[korme]

So the big story from last night's GS blown lead was this particular play, in which Curry got the ball at the top of the key, and Durant stood at center court almost unmoving until Curry relented and gave him the ball. You can see at the far side of the court Draymond throwing his arms around, annoyed at the move.

I don’t blame Draymond at all. He’s right to get frustrated in that situation - when team’s with ‘big 3's’ or what have you successfully co-exist, the stars do not demand the ball from other star’s hands. Durant made a power move and ended up settling for a 3 without trying Z-Bo one-on-one at all. It was a totally selfish move and one that doesn’t align with how Golden State operates offensively.

[Groundhog]

That "play" was straight out of the OKC playbook.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by korme

You can see at the far side of the court Draymond throwing his arms around, annoyed at the move.

Well, that's the problem right there. Without at least one knee moving spasmodically, Green's teammates didn't recognize him.

[Brian Swartz]

Thing is, the same thing was happening at the end of games in the NBA Finals last year. This isn't a new-with-Durant thing. I think it's just harder to be freewheeling in these kinds of situations. Something Kerr has to figure out I think.

[Atocep]

The Sixers have matched their win total from last year.

[nol]

So Derrick Rose hasn't exactly made the Knicks a dark horse contender.

Sources: Derrick Rose's game absence a surprise to Knicks

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I was thinking about the trade deadline and wondering should anyone besides the Cavs and Warriors bother upgrading this year?

Sure, mostly because some are nearing the end of a window and don't have another visible path to a championship. Thinking specifically about Toronto & Millsap, though the Clippers apply here too, and I guess Memphis even though nobody thinks they have a chance. With their Front Office & Kawhi's age the Spurs aren't nearing the end of their window, but they're close enough to the top I couldn't blame them either, and Danny Ainge will always sniff around the chance a DMC/Paul George/Jimmy Butler/Blake Griffin is available, though that's not really a short term play.

Originally Posted by Sublime 2

As a NH native, I followed Matt's career from HS, to UF, to the NBA. Certainly one of the most successful NH athletes ever - which admittedly isn't saying much.

Knew Luke a bit at UMass, he was great. They weren't All-Stars, but the Bonners represented the area well!

Originally Posted by Atocep

On a side note with the Isaiah talk, my son goes to the same school he did in University Place here in Washington. Last summer I was in a subway in a not so good part of Tacoma and Isaiah came in. Seemed like an incredibly down to earth person. He was recognized by someone and then stopped to take pictures with anyone that asked, signed some stuff, and talked to someone he went to Curtis High School with before leaving.

I've always heard great things from everybody since he came to Boston too, which is why I'm so confused how he could be considered and rumored to be a team cancer at his two previous stops. Ball dominant sure, but personality-wise or off court? I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by korme

I don’t blame Draymond at all. He’s right to get frustrated in that situation - when team’s with ‘big 3's’ or what have you successfully co-exist, the stars do not demand the ball from other star’s hands. Durant made a power move and ended up settling for a 3 without trying Z-Bo one-on-one at all. It was a totally selfish move and one that doesn’t align with how Golden State operates offensively.

I hate settling for a 3 and obviously Steph has better chemistry with his teammates, but playing devil's advocate isn't KD vs Z-Bo a better matchup than Steph Curry had?

Originally Posted by nol

Which they could have done by just trying to sign other players after LeBron left and Bosh turned down their initial offer. They could've done with Wade what Dallas has done with Dirk for the last few years, but they doubled down on trying to build a mediocre veteran team in an effort to stick it to LeBron.

What other players?
And are you arguing Miami should've kept Wade last summer instead of moving on, or implying that moving on from him was worse than what Dallas is doing with Dirk? Shit, Dallas is another team who's whole team building plan was thrown off course by an unpredictable event involving the all-star big man they planned to build around.

When you have Bosh signed long-term, that's one fewer superstar that can choose Miami.

Because multiple NBA superstars love to sign for a lottery team without other all-stars?

No, you just said the problem with his skill level and on-court performance: If your team's best and highest-paid player is the 25th-best player in the league (11th-highest salary currently), that's not going to amount to anything in the playoffs - the 25th-best player isn't even an all-star if the conferences are evenly balanced! What you continue to not get is that the contract would not have been even halfway over at this point in time, and that downside would have represented a much longer 'limbo' period than what the Heat had to go through (especially considering Miami didn't even play Whiteside until Bosh was out).

Nah, I understand contract lengths and age-related decline, but I still look at Chris Bosh's $24m/y deal that ends in 2019 at age 33 & Al Horford's $28m/y deal that ends in 2020 at 32 and think both teams took an acceptable risk... and unfortunately for the Heat they came up snake eyes.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by nol

So Derrick Rose hasn't exactly made the Knicks a dark horse contender.

Sources: Derrick Rose's game absence a surprise to Knicks

When was the last time a player no showed a game?

[Chief Rum]

I have seen some guys no show a game and they're physically on the court.

[BishopMVP]

Wish we had AB tonight, but man DeRozan in particular put on a clinic in the 2nd half. I also wonder if this loss will put more pressure on Ainge to trade for a Bogut (or Nerlens). Heck, I'd take Greg Stiemsma back at this point...

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I hate settling for a 3 and obviously Steph has better chemistry with his teammates, but playing devil's advocate isn't KD vs Z-Bo a better matchup than Steph Curry had?

It's less the settling for a three than it is the entire lack of even an attempt at running the offense. You have literally the best passing team in the NBA, and one of the best passing teams in NBA history, and the league's best offense. Why on earth are you trying something different than what has been called?

[RainMaker]

Bulls should trade either Taj Gibson or Robin Lopez to the Celtics.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

It's less the settling for a three than it is the entire lack of even an attempt at running the offense. You have literally the best passing team in the NBA, and one of the best passing teams in NBA history, and the league's best offense. Why on earth are you trying something different than what has been called?

Because you've played almost your whole career under Rick Barnes & Scotty Brooks so your coaches either weren't calling plays in crunch time or you iso'ing was better than what they called? Idk, just playing devil's advocate

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Bulls should trade either Taj Gibson or Robin Lopez to the Celtics.

Definitely interested in Taj, not so much RoLo with 2 more years left after this one (or Tyson Chandler for the same reason), plus I assume the Bulls wouldn't trade Gibson unless they traded Butler too.

As a Bulls fan, what would you be looking for in a Butler trade? The best I can parse is that they fell apart last draft because Chicago was insisting on 2 of AB/Smart/Jae, plus last year's Brooklyn pick & another first. I'm still on board with trading any one of those 3, this year's Brooklyn pick, one of our later firsts (our 2018/LAC or Memphis 2019 etc), and a Rozier or Olynyk (and I assume a trade before this trade deadline would be expanded to include Taj Gibson (as a UFA on what would be a rebuilding team) & Tyler Zeller/Jonas Jerebko to match salaries) but I don't think that's enough unless we do get the #1 pick & a chance at Fultz. But I have zero clue why the Bulls would try and trade Butler unless they were going full rebuild, and they don't seem interested in doing that.

[Vince, Pt. II]

It was more of a rhetorical question for me, I know exactly what was happening

[BishopMVP]

I wish these stats went back past '96 (sorry it's only PER & not RPM)

Highest PER in 4th Qtr/OT - Last 20 Seasons
2016-17 Isaiah Thomas 41.9
2008-09 LeBron James 40.0
2009-10 LeBron James 39.8

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) January 12, 2017

And in the game since, he dropped another 13 in the 4th, including waving off a timeout and a switch from Jae that would've matched him up vs Mike Dunleavy Jr, so he could hit the step back game winner over Kent Bazemore because Bazemore slapped the floor against him earlier... just absurd the confidence he's playing with, and improbably he's backing it all up. I guess when you have Floyd Mayweather flying in to sit courtside & AI texting you that they can't fuck with a real killa you have to carry the banner for all "5'9" guys out there.

Also, in non-Celtics news, this was pretty cool. Go go gadget arms!

[wustin]

Would be something if he could lead Boston past Cleveland to the Finals.

[stevew]

All Boston needs is for hatchet man Olynyk to hurt a key player on the Cavs again and they will have a shot at making the finals

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by wustin

Would be something if he could lead Boston past Cleveland to the Finals.

Let's worry about beating Toronto and making the ECF first. Or winning a playoff series. I'm under no illusions about where we are as a team (unless we add a rebounder/rim protector, in which case I reserve the right to get irrationally over-exuberant!), but even in a season filled with amazing individual performances, to see a player of his stature & pedigree doing what he's doing is as exciting as what Westbrook & Harden are doing for their teams out west. I'm glad the national media has caught up and no serious observer is still arguing that Kemba or Kyrie are having a better season and deserve an ASG nod over him (though obviously Kyrie will be there.)

Originally Posted by stevew

All Boston needs is for hatchet man Olynyk to hurt a key player on the Cavs again and they will have a shot at making the finals

Unless that player is named LeBron we still shouldn't be favored. But sure, keep thinking gangly uncoordinated Olynyk was the one who intentionally injured a key opposing player in that series.

[kingfc22]

More Lebron bullshit. I don't care how good he is. His antics and flopping knock him way down the list of best ever. Just play the game.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

More Lebron bullshit. I don't care how good he is. His antics and flopping knock him way down the list of best ever. Just play the game.

What actually happened? I'm doing homework with the game on in the background and I notice a review, Lebron shooting free throws (that looked like a technical or a flagrant) and Draymond making faces but I didn't actually see it.

[wustin]

Cleveland perspective: Draymond clotheslined Lebron and Lebron had to flop to sell the call because he never gets calls

GSW perspective: Draymond made a play on the ball and it should've been a common foul instead

[heybrad]

Just saw the replay. It was a foul with a little embellishment added to it, IMO.

[wustin]

They called a charging foul on Lebron pretty soon after that fiasco so I guess even the refs knew Lebron was flopping even though Secaucus decided on the flagrant. lol

[MrBug708]

Lakers are starting to look good....

....for that lotters protected pick

[CrescentMoonie]

Wizards have now won 13 consecutive home games. The difference in bench production at home vs on the road is comical. They're currently the 5 seed in the East, 1.5 games behind the Hawks.

[stevew]

That Westbrook travel tonight was awesome. He took 5+ steps or so

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by stevew

That Westbrook travel tonight was awesome. He took 5+ steps or so

Maybe the all-time greatest travel, beating out Dan Majerle's uncalled travel all those years ago.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Maybe the all-time greatest travel, beating out Dan Majerle's uncalled travel all those years ago.

I know exactly what you're talking about, lol

[wustin]

If the Lakers can land Lonzo Ball that would be something. Perfect player for Walton and Ball is also from southen California.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by no1

The Sixers are 7-1 in the last 8 games Joel Embiid has played.

So who had the Sixers with a better record than the T-Wolves at the midway point this season?

[BishopMVP]

Might not make the highlights because he didn't make it, but Westbrook just tried this over Gobert.

Twitter

[CrescentMoonie]

Kelly Olynyk is a homeless man's Vlade Divac.

[korme]

Bulls trying to challenge Knicks for biggest dumpster fire.

LAST NIGHT

Butler still yelling at Twardoski on his way off the floor. Bulls blew this one badly. 119-114 Hawks. Final.

— Nick Friedell (@NickFriedell) January 26, 2017

Butler jumps on the pile: "We don't play hard enough. This is your job. I want to play with guys who care."

— K.C. Johnson (@KCJHoop) January 26, 2017

Wade: "This just can’t be acceptable if you want to do anything besides have an NBA jersey on and make some money. That’s all we’re doing."

— K.C. Johnson (@KCJHoop) January 26, 2017

Wade: " I don’t know if we can keep going down the line and be able to say that."

— K.C. Johnson (@KCJHoop) January 26, 2017

Wade, when asked if it was a heart issue for his team: "I don't know. I've never had that problem. They have to figure that out."

— Nick Friedell (@NickFriedell) January 26, 2017

Wade: "It has to change it has to hurt inside to lose games like this. This s*** should f****** hurt."

— Nick Friedell (@NickFriedell) January 26, 2017

TONIGHT

My vets would never go to the media. They would come to the team. My vets didn't pick and choose when they wanted to bring it. They brought it every time they stepped in the gym whether it was practice or a game. They didn't take days off. My vets didn't care about their numbers. My vets played for the team. When we lost, they wouldn't blame us. They took responsibility and got in the gym. They showed the young guys what it meant to work. Even in Boston when we had the best record in the league, if we lost a game, you could hear a pin drop on the bus. They showed us the seriousness of the game. My vets didn't have an influence on the coaching staff. They couldn't change the plan because it didn't work for them. I played under one of the greatest coaches, and he held everyone accountable. It takes 1-15 to win. When you isolate everyone, you can't win consistently. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a bad teammate. My goal is to pass what I learned along. The young guys work. They show up. They don't deserve blame. If anything is questionable, it's the leadership.

A photo posted by Rajon Rondo (@rajonrondo) on Jan 26, 2017 at 3:03pm PST

DRAMA ENSUES