God Hates Fags?

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And this is precisely where I have such a hellish time retaining my ire.

"peddling religion" is, to me, the biggest problem overall. I honestly don't care what you, or anyone else believes. but when joe believer starts "peddling" his religion to me or my family, I have to stop them. it is no one's place but my own and my family members to find their spiritual path. We certainly don't believe that anyone else can truly show us "the way"

It goes further ary when the "peddler" and their fellow believers take it upon themselves to legislate their beliefs into law. As much as they may wish it so, this country is not a "believers" state. There has been tremendous effort throughout our history to keep religious interests and political ones seperated.

People can hold whatever beliefs they choose, but no one, myself foremost as anyone, has the right to force their beliefs on me or my family.

its sad that people can't seem to accept that ideal. it would remove a huge amount of discontent from the world.

I love the way Christians are always trying to force their beliefs down others throats.

If you look at the gay movement in this country, it can basically be boiled down to, "we're queer and we're in your face...deal with it." A lot of school-age kids might have trouble reading and writing, but they do know that "Heather has two mommies, and that's okay!" and they quickly learn that a person can save all kinds of money by getting those free condoms from the health office rather than having to buy them.

If anything, I would say right leaning religious folks are simply trying to maintain the status quo.

As I have said elsewhere, sex is a private matter. What consenting adults do together is their own business. However, as a parent, I maintain the right to impart my value system to my children. While I despise the mindset that would foster a "you should hate all fags, cuz they're all gonna burn in hell," mentality, I do believe homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle that is not pleasing to God and should be avoided just as I also believe promiscuous heterosexuality and substance abuse are sinful and destructive lifestyles.

[RendeR]

Where does the "queer movement" come from? Can you look back at this countries history and discover why there is a gay movement at all? I'll suggest a starting point: Prejudice and bigotry. Why does a group of people go public with their unhappiness with society? Do they bring such attention on themselves just to be pompous and annoying? Do they bring the focus of society on themselves just to feel special?

Not likely.

The Gay movement, like many "movements" in the past was created by the idiotic prejudice of society, the slander, the ostrecism from "accepted" people.

Now you may say that believers are simply maintaining the staus quo, but thats not a real valid case when the religious right's belief system fostered the discontent that created the "movement" to begin with.

The fact of the matter is, its gotta stop somewhere, one side or the other has to take the higher road and say "hey, ok, we don't agree, I'll leave you alone" But unfortunately, even when the gay movement tried to do this during the late 80's early 90's the religious right took it as a sign of weakness and revved up the pressure.

Now days we have right wingers across the country scrambling madly to create laws at the highest levels directly against the rights of those people.

Now you tell me. Who's in Whom's face?

[SFL Cat]

Well, I've had my say. Obviously no one is going to change anyone else's mind, so I leave it in God's hands. His will be done.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I love the way Christians are always trying to force their beliefs down others throats.

If you look at the gay movement in this country, it can basically be boiled down to, "we're queer and we're in your face...deal with it." A lot of school-age kids might have trouble reading and writing, but they do know that "Heather has two mommies, and that's okay!" and they quickly learn that a person can save all kinds of money by getting those free condoms from the health office rather than having to buy them.

If anything, I would say right leaning religious folks are simply trying to maintain the status quo.

As I have said elsewhere, sex is a private matter. What consenting adults do together is their own business. However, as a parent, I maintain the right to impart my value system to my children. While I despise the mindset that would foster a "you should hate all fags, cuz they're all gonna burn in hell," mentality, I do believe homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle that is not pleasing to God and should be avoided just as I also believe promiscuous heterosexuality and substance abuse are sinful and destructive lifestyles.

Fact is, nothing is more hypocritical than the whole 'gay/queer' thing and how its being accorded 'favored protection' status from the powers that be in our country today. Example: Public school teachers and administrators want to promote gay causes and indoctrinate young minds into that mindset. So they designate the gay-queer agenda as 'life-style' and feel free to indoctrinate away. Christians, however, whose very beliefs define the word 'life-style' and believe that homosexual activity is sin are designated 'religion' by those same powers that be. This effectively censures the Christians and eliminates any debate by removing the other-side's argument before it can even be made. Hitler would be proud.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Hitler would be proud.

You lose.

[Bubba Wheels]

Hitler was the master of indoctrination and censorship. In fact, in a recent Federal Court trial involving a Michigan High School this is exactly what the Judge stated: That when one side is effectively denied its ability to argue its case, whatever the forum, its in effect a form of totalitarianism just like the Nazis. This case, by the way, was ruled in favor of Christians who had been denied the same meeting priveleges after school that other non-academic groups had been allowed (like the Gay and Lesbian club). Just stating the facts, folks.

[Butter]

That's nice and all, but that doesn't make you any less of a schmuck.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

That's nice and all, but that doesn't make you any less of a schmuck.

Coming from you, High Praise Indeed!

[Butter]

Thanks, and good luck with your ignorance. I hope your idiocy goes really really well.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Thanks, and good luck with your ignorance. I hope your idiocy goes really really well.

Ignorance is not knowing the facts, I know the facts quite well. I, unlike yourself, actually do view both sides of the argument. I just happen to understand which side wins on the merits. As for idiocy, well that's usually what someone who has become bankrupt of facts starts to call those who disagree with them. I have never called someone that, and won't start now.
God Bless you!

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Ignorance is not knowing the facts, I know the facts quite well. I, unlike yourself, actually do view both sides of the argument. I just happen to understand which side wins on the merits. As for idiocy, well that's usually what someone who has become bankrupt of facts starts to call those who disagree with them. I have never called someone that, and won't start now.
God Bless you!

No, you don't view both sides of the argument and you are in fact the very definition of ignorant. And a bigot too.

Saying gay America's agenda is analogous to Hitler's. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by John Galt

No, you don't view both sides of the argument and you are in fact the very definition of ignorant. And a bigot too.

Saying gay America's agenda is analogous to Hitler's. Yeah, that makes sense.

What part of the argument did I not view? Just because I don't agree with it you claim I don't know what it is? And bigot is a term derived from the civil rights movement, of which the homosexual activists desperately would like to see themselves viewed as. Sorry, even long-time civil rights leaders are stating that this is way off base. Apples and Oranges entirely. Fact is, your terminology shows your attempt to censor the other side's argument by name-calling same as Hitler would. So you just proved my argument.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

What part of the argument did I not view? Just because I don't agree with it you claim I don't know what it is? And bigot is a term derived from the civil rights movement, of which the homosexual activists desperately would like to see themselves viewed as. Sorry, even long-time civil rights leaders are stating that this is way off base. Apples and Oranges entirely. Fact is, your terminology shows your attempt to censor the other side's argument by name-calling same as Hitler would. So you just proved my argument.

Now I am Hitler? Really, you are too much. You put skippybot to shame and you make babies cry.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Fact is, your terminology shows your attempt to censor the other side's argument by name-calling same as Hitler would. So you just proved my argument.

Good argument... if this were 7th grade.

Hitler liked apples and oranges. So, what's that say about you?

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Fact is, nothing is more hypocritical than the whole 'gay/queer' thing and how its being accorded 'favored protection' status from the powers that be in our country today. Example: Public school teachers and administrators want to promote gay causes and indoctrinate young minds into that mindset. So they designate the gay-queer agenda as 'life-style' and feel free to indoctrinate away. Christians, however, whose very beliefs define the word 'life-style' and believe that homosexual activity is sin are designated 'religion' by those same powers that be. This effectively censures the Christians and eliminates any debate by removing the other-side's argument before it can even be made. Hitler would be proud.

This isn't how I intended this thread to go, but since stupid is the cause of the day, I thought I'd chime in.

A) I was never taught anything about homsexuality in school
B) An afterschool club is not the same as a teacher led indoctrination.
C) Homosexuality is not a religion
D) Christianity is a religion
E) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
F) At my school, there was a group that met afterschool called the Fellowship of Christian Athletes... a religious group.

I attended public school.

[John Galt]

BTW, here is the case which I believe Bubba referred to. I think the decision is a good one (notice how the court actually found the intertwining of religion in schools to be problematic under the Establishment Clause). Also notice that the decision doesn't mention Hitler or the Nazis and that Bubba had the "facts" wrong. When you get your legal reporting from Rush, it is bound to riddled with errors. "Just the facts."

http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/_opinio...pdf/hansen.pdf

Also, this is the summary of the case for the lazy:

http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_cosa.as...=487&DID=32692

[sabotai]

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.”

Guess who said this...

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by sabotai

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.”

Guess who said this...

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say . . .

Hitler.

Dictators say the strangest things, don't they Bubba?

[Butter]

Well, if it's not Hitler, I bet it was Gabe Kaplan.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Fact is, nothing is more hypocritical than the whole 'gay/queer' thing and how its being accorded 'favored protection' status from the powers that be in our country today. Example: Public school teachers and administrators want to promote gay causes and indoctrinate young minds into that mindset. So they designate the gay-queer agenda as 'life-style' and feel free to indoctrinate away. Christians, however, whose very beliefs define the word 'life-style' and believe that homosexual activity is sin are designated 'religion' by those same powers that be. This effectively censures the Christians and eliminates any debate by removing the other-side's argument before it can even be made. Hitler would be proud.

Bubba, one hopes that someday you see beyond your rose-tinted glasses.

[Bubba Wheels]

Oh geez, more cherry-picking from the pro gay-agenda crowd with an ax to grind. Seems to me that off-hand I can name Stalin, Mao, Castro, ect..., all who do not like religion at all because it interferes with their 'New World Order." And those are not dictators? I get called alot of names, but funny how I talk big picture and those attacking me always focus in on minutia. Talk about small minds.

Fact: Bible is THE Best Selling Book of ALL TIME. Christianity is, well, 2004 years old? (or there-abouts?) So those attemting to mainstream an alternative, or even 'deviant' life-style like yourselves are on the losing end of 2000 years. And again, God Bless you! And I mean that!

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Oh geez, more cherry-picking from the pro gay-agenda crowd with an ax to grind. Seems to me that off-hand I can name Stalin, Mao, Castro, ect..., all who do not like religion at all because it interferes with their 'New World Order." And those are not dictators? I get called alot of names, but funny how I talk big picture and those attacking me always focus in on minutia. Talk about small minds.

Fact: Bible is THE Best Selling Book of ALL TIME. Christianity is, well, 2004 years old? (or there-abouts?) So those attemting to mainstream an alternative, or even 'deviant' life-style like yourselves are on the losing end of 2000 years. And again, God Bless you! And I mean that!

I prefer to think of as pro-people agenda - I'd rather not legislate the lives of everyone else, unlike your type- your desire for some sort of Theocracy scares the hell out of me.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Fact: Bible is THE Best Selling Book of ALL TIME. Christianity is, well, 2004 years old? (or there-abouts?) So those attemting to mainstream an alternative, or even 'deviant' life-style like yourselves are on the losing end of 2000 years. And again, God Bless you! And I mean that!

Psssttt...Bubba, some Christians are gay.

[Butter]

Buddhism is 2600 years old. Beat that, beyotch!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Aadik

I prefer to think of as pro-people agenda - I'd rather not legislate the lives of everyone else, unlike your type- your desire for some sort of Theocracy scares the hell out of me.

This one really makes me laugh! Liberals don't legislate people's lives but conservatives do? Only someone with their head hopelessly up their own tail-pipe would make a statement like that one.

[sabotai]

True to his word, Bubba hasn't actually used the word "idiot" in any of his insults yet...

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

This one really makes me laugh! Liberals don't legislate people's lives but conservatives do? Only someone with their head hopelessly up their own tail-pipe would make a statement like that one.

Funny Bubba, but I am a conservative/libertarian. I hate the legislation attitude from liberals, and I see no reason to change my stance on legislation because the "conservatives" now support it. NIce try- now what ?

[sabotai]

BURNED!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Funny Bubba, but I am a conservative/libertarian. I hate the legislation attitude from liberals, and I see no reason to change my stance on legislation because the "conservatives" now support it. NIce try- now what ?

Well, if your absolutely consistant in your views, I can respect that. Most 'libertarians' are not that at all though, they like others just want to 'cherry pick' what they want to.

So your in full support of the following:

NO government sponsored public schools. Privatize them all! I can agree!

NO more income tax! User-taxes only!! I see this one actually growing in popularity, like it myself.

Part-time legislators ONLY on both state and federal levels. (Keeps the careerists out and they only work part-time anyway! Great money-saver!)

I am actually sympathetic to many if not most libertarian views. Lay some more on me! (Funny how its always the gay-thing and abortion-rights that most 'libertarians' show up in these discussions.)

Also, since your the libertarian authority here, who's your candidate for President and what is his main platform? I am interested, others too I imagine. Not many libertarians really out there discussing these things.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Well, if your absolutely consistant in your views, I can respect that. Most 'libertarians' are not that at all though, they like others just want to 'cherry pick' what they want to.

So your in full support of the following:

NO government sponsored public schools. Privatize them all! I can agree!

NO more income tax! User-taxes only!! I see this one actually growing in popularity, like it myself.

Part-time legislators ONLY on both state and federal levels. (Keeps the careerists out and they only work part-time anyway! Great money-saver!)

I am actually sympathetic to many if not most libertarian views. Lay some more on me! (Funny how its always the gay-thing and abortion-rights that most 'libertarians' show up in these discussions.)

Actually, most libertarian's moderate their views to some extent. I prefer limited government public schools, but Im in favor of a voucher system. Like any good economist, I would prefer a more consumption based taxation system, but that's unrealisitc. Legislators- sigh, that's about as likely to happen as you admitting the failures of your logic.

Fundementally, you bitch and moan when liberals want to legislate lives, but when you want to- you're A-okay with it. That's textbook hypocrisy.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Actually, most libertarian's moderate their views to some extent. I prefer limited government public schools, but Im in favor of a voucher system. Like any good economist, I would prefer a more consumption based taxation system, but that's unrealisitc. Legislators- sigh, that's about as likely to happen as you admitting the failures of your logic.

Fundementally, you bitch and moan when liberals want to legislate lives, but when you want to- you're A-okay with it. That's textbook hypocrisy.

Solutions' pretty simple. Allow school-choice (real choice, no more tax-funded public schools teaching a Godless agenda and making those of faith pay extra for schools they desire.)

As a libertarian, I'm sure you agree. Interesting how the word 'moderate' suddenly came up in your post when you positions were being defined. Guess that means you believe what you want when you decide to believe in them at all, no?

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by tucker342

hxxp://www.godhatesfags.com

I read that as hxxp://www.godatefags.com

[RendeR]

THe more bubba Talks the more convinced I become that organized religion is the single greatest evil ever conceived..... keep talking bubba, please. I'm hoping you manage to define the real need for keeping religion out of our government. you're doing a helluva job thus far..*applauds*

[Bubba Wheels]

I'm just incredibly surprised its always the usual 5 or 6 suspects attacking me. I would have expected a much more diverse crowd banging away given the contencious nature of the topic.

[RendeR]

I guess its your unbelievable ability to ignore anyone elses opinion and declare yourself correct at any given time.

For example, why, when a large portion of the united states has stated over and over again that it does NOT want religion taught in public schools, do you seem to think that eliminating them is the only good option? Is this not then forcing those people who do not wish to have their children taught other peoples religious views and values to live YOUR way?

Is that not exactly why you would want to make such a change? To make people live YOUR way?

[Danny]

My gosh, I'm only 20, but I have already learned it is pointless to argue with an idiot. They always win as they dont feel the need to include logic or reason in there argument. You keep on trucking Bubba, you the man!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I guess its your unbelievable ability to ignore anyone elses opinion and declare yourself correct at any given time.

For example, why, when a large portion of the united states has stated over and over again that it does NOT want religion taught in public schools, do you seem to think that eliminating them is the only good option? Is this not then forcing those people who do not wish to have their children taught other peoples religious views and values to live YOUR way?

Is that not exactly why you would want to make such a change? To make people live YOUR way?

A very simplistic characterization of the facts. Only a small minority wanted prayer out of schools. How did they prevail? Same way they always do, when the left cannot win in the voting booths they find simpathetic judges that mandate their agenda. Is prayer in schools, acknowledging only GOD in a very general sense 'indoctrinating' our youth into 'religion?" Only the extremists driving a Godless agenda would think so. Fact is, a majority of Americans DO and ALWAYS have believed in God, and be attacking even the very concept of a 'higher power', an extremist 'Atheistic', and even 'Marxist' agenda is the only thing that can be attempting indoctrination.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

A very simplistic characterization of the facts. Only a small minority wanted prayer out of schools. How did they prevail? Same way they always do, when the left cannot win in the voting booths they find simpathetic judges that mandate their agenda. Is prayer in schools, acknowledging only GOD in a very general sense 'indoctrinating' our youth into 'religion?" Only the extremists driving a Godless agenda would think so. Fact is, a majority of Americans DO and ALWAYS have believed in God, and be attacking even the very concept of a 'higher power', an extremist 'Atheistic', and even 'Marxist' agenda is the only thing that can be attempting indoctrination.

when you come back to reality from your never-never land of made up facts and ideas, let us know.

your majority and always statements should be sending off lots of signals to you that you're really closed minded to any way of life other than your own.

If we lived in a christian state, one where the government and way of life was truly designed based on that religious doctrine, then you would probably be right. Unfortunately for you and thankfully for the rest of us, that has never been, nor will it ever be the case in this country. so please, go start your xion state,a nd live blissfully ever after, but if you're living here, then you don't have the right to legislate your lifestyle on the rest of the nation.

And that, dear, one-sided bubba, is exactly what is happening. The religous of the country are doing everything they can to create laws that bind EVERYONE, which are based soley off their personaly spiritual beliefs. Its wrong, and may god have mercy on your soul for your self ritiousness.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by RendeR

when you come back to reality from your never-never land of made up facts and ideas, let us know.

your majority and always statements should be sending off lots of signals to you that you're really closed minded to any way of life other than your own.

If we lived in a christian state, one where the government and way of life was truly designed based on that religious doctrine, then you would probably be right. Unfortunately for you and thankfully for the rest of us, that has never been, nor will it ever be the case in this country. so please, go start your xion state,a nd live blissfully ever after, but if you're living here, then you don't have the right to legislate your lifestyle on the rest of the nation.

And that, dear, one-sided bubba, is exactly what is happening. The religous of the country are doing everything they can to create laws that bind EVERYONE, which are based soley off their personaly spiritual beliefs. Its wrong, and may god have mercy on your soul for your self ritiousness.

As usual, just accusations based on opinions, no facts. You may disagree with my facts, but they exist never-the-less. You are claiming that the majority of Americans do NOT profess a belief in God? Don't know how to argue with that one, since every poll taken proves otherwise.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

A very simplistic characterization of the facts. Only a small minority wanted prayer out of schools. How did they prevail? Same way they always do, when the left cannot win in the voting booths they find simpathetic judges that mandate their agenda. Is prayer in schools, acknowledging only GOD in a very general sense 'indoctrinating' our youth into 'religion?" Only the extremists driving a Godless agenda would think so. Fact is, a majority of Americans DO and ALWAYS have believed in God, and be attacking even the very concept of a 'higher power', an extremist 'Atheistic', and even 'Marxist' agenda is the only thing that can be attempting indoctrination.

Bubba, here is a concept...

The Constitution protects against the tyranny of the majority.

Here is a corollary concept...
The Constitution does not protect against the tyranny of the super majority because a super majority can amend the constitution.

If you sincerely believe that it is just a few extremists driving an agenda, please work with the super majority you believe exists to amend the constitution and shut these extremists up.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by digamma

Bubba, here is a concept...

The Constitution protects against the tyranny of the majority.

Here is a corollary concept...
The Constitution does not protect against the tyranny of the super majority because a super majority can amend the constitution.

If you sincerely believe that it is just a few extremists driving an agenda, please work with the super majority you believe exists to amend the constitution and shut these extremists up.

Interesting concepts, but you don't explain how allowing someone to profess a general belief in GOD becomes tyranny of the majority. To me, your argument is extremist on its face. Are you saying that allowing a simple reference to GOD in the public forum, like school, is indocrinating students by establishing a religion on them? View points don't get more extreme than that one, my friend.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I was on the verge of responding to a question from yesterday, but this entire fourth page for the most part made me realize it just isn't worth it.

You guys carry on...

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by RendeR

THe more bubba Talks the more convinced I become that organized religion is the single greatest evil ever conceived..... keep talking bubba, please. I'm hoping you manage to define the real need for keeping religion out of our government. you're doing a helluva job thus far..*applauds*

Then don't put your faith in organized religion.

HFP: I agree.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

I was on the verge of responding to a question from yesterday, but this entire fourth page for the most part made me realize it just isn't worth it.

Are you surprised?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by EagleEye11

My gosh, I'm only 20, but I have already learned it is pointless to argue with an idiot. They always win as they dont feel the need to include logic or reason in there argument. You keep on trucking Bubba, you the man!

LOL.

But the advice is sound. I'm done arguing with Bubba.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Interesting concepts, but you don't explain how allowing someone to profess a general belief in GOD becomes tyranny of the majority. To me, your argument is extremist on its face. Are you saying that allowing a simple reference to GOD in the public forum, like school, is indocrinating students by establishing a religion on them? View points don't get more extreme than that one, my friend.

On second thought, my friend, I am finished as well.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Are you surprised?

Sadly, no. That little faith thing keeps getting in the way.

But I had said I would try to answer druez's question so I will.

You say updated or overwritten, I say contridiction. Which, btw is not supposed to happen in the bible as it is divinely inspired, so there can be no mistakes or inconsistances. I am curious as to why the apostles didn't agree on everything and there were different viewpoints/factions when Jesus died. If the bible was written by god shouldn't have the disiples of god had a uniformed concensus on what the word of the lord was?

Self-criticism is a theme throughout the Bible. For starters in the Old Testament there are examples of criticism of the Isrealites themselves and their rulers, it even has arguments of Job, Moses and Abraham with God himself. (I can point out specific passages if you wish, I just can't access a Bible this minute)

Now this carries on in the New Testament. One of the remarkable things about the accounts of the ministry of Jesus is that his closest followers are portrayed in a not so flattering light. They quarrel about who shall be the greatest, Peter says that he will never betray Jesus, and then does so almost immediately, and at Jesus's deepest hour of need they all abandon him (with the exception of his mother and Mary Magadaline).

Even after the Pentecost, when they are on their own, there are disagreements among the apostles, the letters of Paul in particular give glimpses of early Christian establishments that have to be reprimanded for their divisiveness and lack of charity. (again I can find passages if you wish)

Ok, so is self-criticism a virtue? In the bigger picture, yes.

Because it bears witness to the fact that the biblical writers were not commending themselves or writing to establish their own reputations. They are and they describe ordinary, fallible (in other words human just like you or I) and not necessarily very religious people (remember you are dealing with a tax collector, a fisherman among others.. back then these were the lowest of the social scale) who nonetheless had been caught up in God's purposes, and who discovered to their surprise and often in spite of themselves that God was still achieving great things through them.

When you step back and look back at the bigger picture, this is a powerful statement about spirituality at work in the world in the face of human frailty, sin and injustice... in other words the human condition.

[Noop]

Glad to see some of you think you can actually change opinions...

[RendeR]

I realize I'm barking at a brick wall when talking about these things. I'm not sure what drives me to keep trying or even bothering to try to understand the believers ways. Call it sick fascination, I dunno. I admit to having a very negative image of organized religion and an even lower opinion of evangelical bible thumpers. I have my reasons for those opinions, but I keep them to myself as it is a very personal thing.

I guess what I really get down to at some point is that I am curious, I've had the same old lines and quotes and "parise jesus" thrown at me for so long, I guess I just hold out hope that one day, a believer who thinks before he benuflects will come along and show me WHY it makes any sense to them. I really wish I could get an answer that held any real basis in reality.

maybe someday. but until then I'll keep fighting intolerant legislation the likes of bubba's hopes would bring upon the world.

[Butter]

You guys are no fun.