BART Shooting

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Noop

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

I'll bet it happens more often than people take to the streets to riot over it.

The assignation of a motive is pretty ridiculous here. It looks like an accident, the guy's reaction. He resigned...probably because of what this has done to him personally. He took a life, he is screwed up even if he isn't prosecuted...which I'm guessing he will be. Most likely manslaughter...he'll probably plead it down.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Noop, you're in law school, right?

No I start in August.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Noop

JeBus Thrist you're clueless.

Of course I am, I'm a 30 something white male, I know nothing about the travesties and tribulations of anyone that's been discriminated...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Is it ironic that MLK's birthday is coming up soon? Whatever happened to that guy? He sure gets quoted a lot, and everyone seems to respect him, but what ever happened to his spirit?

I think some bigot killed him.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Most likely manslaughter...he'll probably plead it down.

And then once again people will riot, and destroy other peoples dreams and properties.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It has nothing to do with blaming people or trying harder. It's about one race that put the other race at a severe disadvantage in society. Then that race complains when people want to help level the playing field a bit.

when does this stop becoming a reason and start becoming an excuse?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Lathum

when does this stop becoming a reason and start becoming an excuse?

You mean those aren't the same thing?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It has nothing to do with blaming people or trying harder. It's about one race that put the other race at a severe disadvantage in society. Then that race complains when people want to help level the playing field a bit.

I'm a white guy, but I had nothing to do with slavery. Not even segregation.

And LOL at this not having to do with blame.

We're all together here, spinning around on the same planet. Some people just want to separate and divide.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

when does this stop becoming a reason and start becoming an excuse?

Probably for generations upon generations. Wealth is not something that fluctuates greatly from generation to generation. Bill Gates grandchild will have better odds at being a success than the grandchild of a poor family living in a trailer park. But perhaps in 10-20 generations down the line, that gap will shrink.

It's easy to have your team spotted 40 points and then say "well the game has started and all things are equal, so you have no excuse not to beat us". It will probably take hundreds of years before the gap is closed. Just as it will take hundreds of years for the family in the trailer park to close the gap on the millionaire investment banker.

People do use it as an excuse at times and that is wrong. There are too many people who just want a handout or excuse for failure. But it is also an aspect of society that is a reality. Take a look at the schools in the rich white suburbs vs the schools in the poor black neighborhoods. Ask yourself if they each have the same opportunity. As long as there is that massive gap in opportunity, I have no problem with giving then a helping hand.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing damaged in the boston tea party was the tea and one lock.

That tea adjusted to our times is worth almost $2 million dollars.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Probably for generations upon generations. Wealth is not something that fluctuates greatly from generation to generation. Bill Gates grandchild will have better odds at being a success than the grandchild of a poor family living in a trailer park. But perhaps in 10-20 generations down the line, that gap will shrink.

It's easy to have your team spotted 40 points and then say "well the game has started and all things are equal, so you have no excuse not to beat us". It will probably take hundreds of years before the gap is closed. Just as it will take hundreds of years for the family in the trailer park to close the gap on the millionaire investment banker.

People do use it as an excuse at times and that is wrong. There are too many people who just want a handout or excuse for failure. But it is also an aspect of society that is a reality. Take a look at the schools in the rich white suburbs vs the schools in the poor black neighborhoods. Ask yourself if they each have the same opportunity. As long as there is that massive gap in opportunity, I have no problem with giving then a helping hand.

Not all of white people are entitled, believe it or not. Not all of us grew up in the "rich white suburbs". In fact, most of us didn't.

Why not extend a "helping hand" based on class instead of race?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Yes. It's exactly what everyone preaches against. It's denying someone an equal opportunity at a benefit because of the color of their skin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Let me ask you this. Are you opposed to scholarships for lower income families who wouldn't normally be able to afford college? How about the scholarships for disabled people? Or children of the military?

Those are denying an equal opportunity based on economic status, disability, or family history.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Not all of white people are entitled, believe it or not. Not all of us grew up in the "rich white suburbs". In fact, most of us didn't.

Why not extend a "helping hand" based on class instead of race?

Those white people had much more opportunity than blacks did at one time.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That tea adjusted to our times is worth almost $2 million dollars.

Ok...

There's still a gigantic difference between the boston tea party and running down the street torching random cars and shit.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Those white people had much more opportunity than blacks did at one time.

What do you mean "at one time"? Their ancestors?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Ok...

There's still a gigantic difference between the boston tea party and running down the street torching random cars and shit.

Would it have made you feel better if the damage wasn't random and instead a bunch of cop cars or the police station itself?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

What do you mean "at one time"? Their ancestors?

Yes.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Would it have made you feel better if the damage wasn't random and instead a bunch of cop cars or the police station itself?

Personally, I think rioting over something like this does more harm for whatever your cause is than good. That's not the point, though. The point is to compare any sort of rioting where idiots are running around trashing random shit to the Boston Tea party is either a huge stretch or just ignorance.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yes.

That's the kind of thinking that brought us here to begin with - that certain people are entitled to things, or are inferior, because of nothing more than their bloodline.

America didn't invent slavery. Many (if not all) blacks are descendants of slave owners in Africa. Nobody can document a bloodline of pure morality and good deeds. But who cares? That not what we should be about.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

That's the kind of thinking that brought us here to begin with - that certain people are entitled to things, or are inferior, because of nothing more than their bloodline.

America didn't invent slavery. Many (if not all) blacks are descendants of slave owners in Africa. Nobody can document a bloodline of pure morality and good deeds. But who cares?

What are you talking about? Are you trying to tell me that the great great grandparents of the poor white people you mention didn't have more rights than the great great grandparents of the average black person?

You tried to make a comparision between poor white people and black people. The comparision is silly considering both ended up in that position by completely different avenues.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You tried to make a comparision between poor white people and black people. The comparision is silly considering both ended up in that position by completely different avenues.

I'm talking about today.

The smart black kid isn't dumber than he would otherwise be because his grandfather didn't have access to schools.

Sure, the fact that his great grandparents faced certain challenges may have trickled down to him in some ways. But that's illustrated in class. Why target race? Is it just about payback?

Who cares how the poor got poor? And there's more than two ways to poverty.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Personally, I think rioting over something like this does more harm for whatever your cause is than good. That's not the point, though. The point is to compare any sort of rioting where idiots are running around trashing random shit to the Boston Tea party is either a huge stretch or just ignorance.

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

Maybe they feel heroic. At some level I can understand that trap, the emotions involved, the history, the struggle against authority.

But that's what it is, a trap. There's better outlets for this energy (even riotous energy) than one incompetent cop.

This sets the whole thing back, which is sad.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm talking about today.

The smart black kid isn't dumber than he would otherwise be because his grandfather didn't have access to schools.

Sure, the fact that his great grandparents faced certain challenges may have trickled down to him. But that's illustrated in class. Why target race? Is it just about payback?

I think class and race here are interlinked. When civil rights finally came to blacks, they were all lower class. That trickles down a lot. As I said, the grandson of Bill Gates is going to have more opportunity than yours or my grandson. Just in the same way that the grandsons of whites had more opportunities than the grandsons of blacks.

You can use a similar argument with women. Not necessarily based on class, but other factors. What is the reason that there are so few women running major companies? So few women in Congress. Because when they were given equal rights, they had to build there way up from nothing. It takes generations to do that.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

Read your history. There was much more to it than rioting over a tea tax.

Its also very debatable as to whether or not you could consider the east india trade company a private entity.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe they feel heroic. At some level I can understand that trap, the emotions involved, the history, the struggle against authority.

But that's what it is, a trap. There's better outlets for this energy (even riotous energy) than one incompetent cop.

This sets the whole thing back, which is sad.

I agree with you. The whole thing was stupid. They should have protested peacefully outside the police station. Got the media attention they wanted and gotten a solution out of it that is fair.

But that video is bad. I can imagine there is a lot of emotion involved in this mess. There is also bad history between city cops and blacks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Read your history. There was much more to it than rioting over a tea tax.

Its also very debatable as to whether or not you could consider the east india trade company a private entity.

Taxation without represenation, oppression, etc. We're still talking about a human life vs money and politics.

The Tea Party wasn't as noble as you think it is.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What is the reason that there are so few women running major companies? So few women in Congress.

Huh?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Taxation without represenation, oppression, etc. We're still talking about a human life vs money and politics.

The Tea Party wasn't as noble as you think it is.

I never said it was noble. I said there was a difference between what they did and riots where random people's property is destroyed.

Most people admit that the Tea Party was counterproductive to what they were trying to accomplish. If you want to compare riots today to the tea party, that's where comparisons should start and end.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I never said it was noble. I said there was a difference between what they did and riots where random people's property is destroyed.

Most people admit that the Tea Party was counterproductive to what they were trying to accomplish. If you want to compare riots today to the tea party, that's where comparisons should start and end.

So what's the big difference here? That you were taught that one was heroic and the other unabashed vandalism?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So your belief is that blacks are poorer and less educated because of the type of melanin in their body? Nothing to do with not having access to land, jobs, schools, or money for the first 200 years of the country's existence?

How you got that out of my quote I really have no idea. I said that there are poor and stupid people of EVERY race. So why are the poor and stupid minorities given an upper hand? This is simple discrimination based on the color of someone's skin. And that is wrong.

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character"

Somehow I don't think that scholarships that discriminate based on race were a part of MLK's dream.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

People do use it as an excuse at times and that is wrong. There are too many people who just want a handout or excuse for failure. But it is also an aspect of society that is a reality. Take a look at the schools in the rich white suburbs vs the schools in the poor black neighborhoods. Ask yourself if they each have the same opportunity. As long as there is that massive gap in opportunity, I have no problem with giving then a helping hand.

As a local example... In the very same county where there are music programs with hundreds of participants, luxury equipment trucks, the best uniforms that money can buy, luxury buses, etc, there are also music programs where they can barely afford to put 20 members through the program. Any guess as to what the demographics are like in the differing parts of the very same county?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm a white guy, but I had nothing to do with slavery. Not even segregation.

And LOL at this not having to do with blame.

We're all together here, spinning around on the same planet. Some people just want to separate and divide.

+1

I don't have anything to do with those things either. Hell over 60% of the blacks around today don't even have 1st or even 2nd hand experience of it.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How so? Both destruction of private property over a perceived oppression by people in power. At least the recent riots were over a killing and not a tax increase.

But my statement was never to compare them. It was to say that you may perceive the destruction of private property during the Boston Tea Party to be heroic. The people who feel oppressed may feel the same way about their destruction of property. Same goes for any riot.

Come on, you can't compare the Boston Tea Party, to a riot because ONE person got killed. Completely different scenarios.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Come on, you can't compare the Boston Tea Party, to a riot because ONE person got killed. Completely different scenarios.

Indeed. Since the Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with a life being taken away, and was just part of a growing dispute over taxation. It was a direct response to the Tea Act of 1773, after building anger from Townshend Acts of 1767 and Stamp Act of 1765... If it had anything to do with just one life being taken, it probably would've been much worse.

Of odd note in the Boston Tea Party, is that the ships were going to return to England. However, the decision was made to block the harbor and not let the ships leave until they were unloaded. Imagine the reception this kind of action would get today... I also meant to add that the Tea Act only hurt businesses that imported Tea and had to sell their imported tea at higher prices than the East India Tea would be sold. This was entirely a business dispute over which ones were getting the best favors from government. An example today might be if the responsible community banks (that needed no bailout) started destroying property of the big banks, who are obviously getting favoritism from the government that may grant them a competitive advantage.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Indeed. Since the Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with a life being taken away, and was just part of a growing dispute over taxation. It was a direct response to the Tea Act of 1773, after building anger from Townshend Acts of 1767 and Stamp Act of 1765... If it had anything to do with just one life being taken, it probably would've been much worse.

Of odd note in the Boston Tea Party, is that the ships were going to return to England. However, the decision was made to block the harbor and not let the ships leave until they were unloaded. Imagine the reception this kind of action would get today... I also meant to add that the Tea Act only hurt businesses that imported Tea and had to sell their imported tea at higher prices than the East India Tea would be sold. This was entirely a business dispute over which ones were getting the best favors from government. An example today might be if the responsible community banks (that needed no bailout) started destroying property of the big banks, who are obviously getting favoritism from the government that may grant them a competitive advantage.

Wasn't the point I was trying to make originally, but you are right.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Noop

This.... either way this guy better go to jail at minimum but I am hoping he gets put to death.

Wow, you're ridiculous. Why don't you wait for the facts before you get the noose out. Christ.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Quite honestly, in my area, this goes a long way towards perpetuating things. Everytime there is a huge fight at a school, its at the minority schools in the area. Probably 90% of the weapons at school incidents are at the minority schools or concern minority students.

There was an incident here last year where something like 8 people were killed in a house. It was the result of a guy having an argument with his brother over a coat (could be wrong about the coat, but I think that was what it was about). Guy comes back with a gun, shoots his brother, and then kills the rest of the people in the house because they were witnesses, this included something like 4 kids.

You have incidents like that in an area, and at some point, it goes from being anecdotes, to a trend, to a belief in the way people act. I'm not saying this is right, but this is exactly how perceptions are made.

The fact of the matter is that there are some universal truths out there that are true regardless of other factors. Murder, malicious intent, hurting people for the sake of hurting people, are all things that are wrong. I don't care what your background is, what your family situation is, you treat people the way you want to be treated. You want respect, give respect. You want love, you give love. You want understanding, understand.

Spooner St, right? I saw the First 48 on A&E talking about this one. Simply an amazing story.

I go to Memphis a few times a year for my company and it's amazing how bad the murder rate is there.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Well I hope he is put on death row if they find out(which they won't) he did it with malicious intent.

so what you are saying is anyone who commits murder with malicious intent should be put to death?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Wow, you're ridiculous. Why don't you wait for the facts before you get the noose out. Christ.

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Lathum

so what you are saying is anyone who commits murder with malicious intent should be put to death?

If you purposely plan to kill someone and do so; you should be put to death. If it was in a heat of the moment then no; life without parole should be enough.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

is that a yes?

( i don't necessarily disagree with that POV)

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

If you purposely plan to kill someone and do so; you should be put to death. If it was in a heat of the moment then no; life without parole should be enough.

well watching that video couldn't it be interpreted to ba more in the heat of the moment and less planned?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Noop

No more ridiculous then some of the other posters in this thread.

You mean like the ones that can't understand that the majority of white people in the US aren't racist?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

You mean like the ones that can't understand that the majority of white people in the US aren't racist?

Who is saying that?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Lathum

well watching that video couldn't it be interpreted to ba more in the heat of the moment and less planned?

You are correct. I was a bit to passionate with my statement because I can not understand why he chose to do what he did.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

You are correct. I was a bit to passionate with my statement because I can not understand why he chose to do what he did.

Fair enough.

For what its worth I think we need to be way harsher with the death penalty. I am a firm believer in eye for an eye.

IMO it's absurd, regardless of what color you are, that you can kill someone and then live off the state for 30 years getting free meals, education, boarding, excersise, etc...

There are literaly millions of people who commit crims on purpose so they can be in prison instead of a shelter, etc...

I say put the money they spend on these worthless members of society into educating youths so maybe they don't make the mistakes others have.

[Lathum]

to harsh?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Lathum

There are literaly millions of people who commit crims on purpose so they can be in prison instead of a shelter, etc...

Literally millions????

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Literally millions????

ok, millions may be a stretch, but there are alot