Grammar Police - Graduate School

[RPI-Fan]

The answer "I don't" instead of "I haven't" - "Have you seen my car keys?. "No, I don't".

Anyone who anwers that way is probably just a redneck.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Zippo

"the data show" not "the data shows"

I'm not so sure about that. I thought data was a collective noun in many cases, thus making it singular.

SI

[QuikSand]

I've always heard that "data" is ambiguously singular or plural, and that in most cases either usage is acceptable. I'm not aware if there's a more specific rule that applies to the instance you use above... but I wouldn't feel comfortable criticizing the usage you do.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I note, QS, that there's an uncharacteristic number of typos in your posts. Have you included a code for us to work on or is your subconscious playing tricks because of the subject matter?

Actually, typos are very characteristic of me... I'm probably guilty of more typos on this board than most people have typed words. I tend to type very quickly (faster than I can handle) and only bother to go back if there's something rendered difficult to read or understand. How to square that with my general encouragement of "attention to detail" is left as an exercise for the critic.

[Touchstone]

This word, of course, may come with its own set of grammar police problems, but I feel a need to indicate that it is

y'all and NOT ya'll.

It is short for YOU ALL.

[Dutch]

"You will not look as good when you reach nine-hundred years old." should read "When nine-hundred years old you reach, look as good, you will not."

Not many get that one right.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Touchstone

This word, of course, may come with its own set of grammar police problems, but I feel a need to indicate that it is

y'all and NOT ya'll.

It is short for YOU ALL.

I agree that people abuse this perfectly legitimate second person plural pronoun (or at least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it)

SI

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Actually, typos are very characteristic of me... I'm probably guilty of more typos on this board than most people have typed words. I tend to type very quickly (faster than I can handle) and only bother to go back if there's something rendered difficult to read or understand. How to square that with my general encouragement of "attention to detail" is left as an exercise for the critic.

This is a random thing to discover two some-odd months later, but I'm absolutely in this same boat. My typos are rarely, if ever, a matter of not knowing the correct usage but just typing faster than I can handle. I tend to combine words, I'll occassionally type one word that is similar to another word, I'll transpose laters, etc. I assumed that I was either developing adult on-set dyslexia or early on-set Alzheimer's. While I'm afflicted much worse than Quik, I'm glad to know that someone I consider automatic feels they miss some extra points now and then.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

This is a random thing to discover two some-odd months later, but I'm absolutely in this same boat. My typos are rarely, if ever, a matter of not knowing the correct usage but just typing faster than I can handle. I tend to combine words, I'll occassionally type one word that is similar to another word, I'll transpose laters, etc. I assumed that I was either developing adult on-set dyslexia or early on-set Alzheimer's. While I'm afflicted much worse than Quik, I'm glad to know that someone I consider automatic feels they miss some extra points now and then.

Watch out for those transposed laters.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Bee

Watch out for those transposed laters.

Dear god. Is that poetic justice or what?

[dbd1963]

I have an MA in English and this kind of thing strikes me as a poopy-headed waste of time. It's not exactly in line with my interests, but I did teach remedial English to adults, along with high school English.

Ordinarily I wouldn't bother to post my opinion in a thread like this one, but in this case, and in this venue, I think it's worth mentioning that what we are doing here is communicating. When I read the stuff on the net from a variety of people with varying degrees of education in English, many of whom maybe don't speak English as a first language, all I ask is that I can understand what they mean when they write. If I don't understand, I ask for clarification. I can't think of a time when I never came to understand what was being communicated.

The fact that human languages are robust enough to convey meaning with some imperfections in the transmission is a fact to be celebrated. A site like this one, with people from all around the world communicating together quite easily, is a great wonder if you really stop to think about it. How is it that people understand each other, coming from such different backgrounds, learning different things, and having an imperfect grasp of the language? Yet they do, and without a whole lot of effort either.

So why bother about a thread like this one? There's some danger, small though it may be, that those not confident enough about their use of English will feel less able to try communicating out of fear they will be singled out or ridiculed. Knowing the general tenor of this board, I can already hear the chorus of "so what? Fek 'em".. Well, sometimes something you needed or wanted to know won't get posted. You'll still get the same old stuff you always get no matter what you do here, that's certain, but the those things that are known by few people are less likely to be posted if there are barriers, even informal ones. So that's one reason to bother.

Then there is my own sense of the place we are in. There are places where maybe it's more useful to launch a crusade on issues in standardizing English. But on a sports game website? It makes me want to say things like, "Egad! The ENORMITY of it!!" (See how serious I am? I used allcaps and TWO exclamations.) This is just straight out of bounds for a site like this one. If one can't "let one's hair down" in a place like this one, then where can one.. uh, do that hair-letting-down thing, then? If I wanted to, say, rhetorically speaking of course, scratch my balls and belch, I can't do it HERE, on a site dedicated to a football game?

imonhavta make a adjustment here, scuse me.. ahh, that's better.

Maybe it's legit to spend time educating people about the things that do inhibit understanding, like WRITING IN ALLCAPS AND STUFF LKE THAT FOR PAGES AND PAGES or never using any punct or anything and i dont like to use caps either but with all this unpunctuated stuff who can rly follow wht im talking about n e way.. Maybe there's a use in that, though it only takes a little practice and I'm reading that as well as anything else, on account of the amazing stretchiness of language. But proper use of subjunctive.. wha? On a sports game website?

::blink blink::

I know that my take on it will likely only be a provocation to those who like this stuff, and if there's one thing I dislike more than grammar policing, it's back and forth bitching about grammar policing. I am reminded of a certain quote by Emerson in his essay "Self Reliance" -- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".

And then looking back at it just now, "whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist.” There's a point to those quotes that goes beyond the argument here, but they are still applicable.

Finally, I have to admit, threads like this one often contain the well-manured seeds of comedy gold. A point against my railing, and I acknowledge it.

[st.cronin]

Emerson was a tool.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I have an MA in English and this kind of thing strikes me as a poopy-headed waste of time. It's not exactly in line with my interests, but I did teach remedial English to adults, along with high school English.

No, you're a poopy-headed waste of time

SI

[Ajaxab]

Thought those who have stuck with this thread might find some interest in this site: hxxp://eggcorns.lascribe.net/.

[Ksyrup]

This is more like remedial school, but it made me laugh, so I needed to post it somewhere and this is the most recent grammar thread. From Steve Phillips' chat:

"...a ligitement shot..."


And no, that's not something Phillips typed.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm not so sure about that. I thought data was a collective noun in many cases, thus making it singular.

SI

I've worked as a copyeditor for IEEE publications, and the word data is always regarded as plural.

[21C]

I attended a teachers' conference the other day and the guy running it made a ton of errors both in print and in speech.

The best one - or the most jarring - was when he spoke of 'ingrediences.' I'm guessing that he was thinking of the word 'ingredients' and thought, "I'm sure that word is the singular case so I need to turn it into a plural somehow."

It also reminded me of a teacher I work with who keeps using the word 'incidences.' I'm sure he's thinking of an 'incident' and is trying to get the plural as 'incidents' but then he's crossing it with the word 'incidence' which doesn't fit his context. As in "There have been many incidences of fighting at our school lately."

[Ksyrup]

From the recap of the Phillies/Mets game last night:

Wagner said Burrell has a "one path swing, and I threw it in it's path."

I seriously doubt Wagner included the apostrophe as he spoke...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Wagner said Burrell has a "one path swing, and I threw it in it's path."

I seriously doubt Wagner included the apostrophe as he spoke...

You know how some people annoy everyone by making those double-quote movements with their hands when they talk? I'm going to start doing a single-quote movement whenever I use an apostrophe. When everyone is doing this in a few years, remember that it started with me.

[Oilers9911]

Not sure if this had been mentioned yet but I have seen many instances on message boards of someone being called a "premadonna" So wait...someone is before Madonna? WTF? I think you mean primadona.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Not sure if this had been mentioned yet but I have seen many instances on message boards of someone being called a "premadonna" So wait...someone is before Madonna? WTF? I think you mean primadona.

Those are my favorite kinds of screw-ups, because it's one thing to misspell or misuse a word, but it's another to demonstrate that you lack a fundamental understanding of the genesis of the word you're attempting to use.

A couple of weeks ago, that guy who replaced Kuselius on ESPN Radio in the afternoons (Seibel...? (not sure of the spelling)) was talking about Giambi, I think it was, and he kept saying that he was speaking up about steroids to soothe his conscious. And he kept saying that over and over. After a few minutes, I started to feel bad for him, but then I figured why should I - the guy probably makes way more money than I do and clearly doesn't deserve it, so a little public humiliation is the price he pays. I'm just shocked no one was whispering in his ear, "It's conscience, you idiot! CONSCIENCE!!!!"

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Those are my favorite kinds of screw-ups, because it's one thing to misspell or misuse a word, but it's another to demonstrate that you lack a fundamental understanding of the genesis of the word you're attempting to use.

A couple of weeks ago, that guy who replaced Kuselius on ESPN Radio in the afternoons (Seibel...? (not sure of the spelling)) was talking about Giambi, I think it was, and he kept saying that he was speaking up about steroids to soothe his conscious. And he kept saying that over and over. After a few minutes, I started to feel bad for him, but then I figured why should I - the guy probably makes way more money than I do and clearly doesn't deserve it, so a little public humiliation is the price he pays. I'm just shocked no one was whispering in his ear, "It's conscience, you idiot! CONSCIENCE!!!!"

I was watching the Canada/Costa Rica Gold Gup match the other night and before the game started the commentator said...the officials are concurring at midfield. Either he meant conferring or they officials were actually just agreeing on everything.

[terpkristin]

I was on the Metro last night, coming home from a jaunt in DC, when I saw this on a sign: "Is your SAVINGS safe?" I wanted to grab a picture of it so I could remember what company actually ran the ad, but by the time I grabbed my phone, the train had moved on (for anybody in the DC area, it was on the orange line, somewhere between Eastern Market and Rosslyn, I was heading west).

My general rule of thumb when it comes to grammar, at a first cut anyway, is, "does it sound right when you say it aloud?" "Is your savings safe" doesn't sound right to me when I say it out loud. I guess it comes down to if "savings" is singular or plural, and after giving it a lot of thought, I couldn't decide. "Savings account" is singular, but "savings" on its own is fairly ambiguous....any thoughts from the grammar crew here?

/tk

[MJ4H]

Usage Note: Traditionalists state that one should use the form a saving when referring to an amount of money that is saved. Indeed, that is the form English speakers outside of the United States normally use. In the United States the plural form a savings is widely used with a singular verb (as in A savings of $50 is most welcome); nonetheless, 57 percent of the Usage Panel find it unacceptable.

(dictionary.com)

[sterlingice]

I love this thread

SI

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I love this thread

SI

I, on the other hand, thought it was slightly disturbing last night when my first thought upon realizing I couldn't make heads or tails of the "correctness" of it was to post here....

/tk

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

I was on the Metro last night, coming home from a jaunt in DC, when I saw this on a sign: "Is your SAVINGS safe?" I wanted to grab a picture of it so I could remember what company actually ran the ad, but by the time I grabbed my phone, the train had moved on (for anybody in the DC area, it was on the orange line, somewhere between Eastern Market and Rosslyn, I was heading west).

My general rule of thumb when it comes to grammar, at a first cut anyway, is, "does it sound right when you say it aloud?" "Is your savings safe" doesn't sound right to me when I say it out loud. I guess it comes down to if "savings" is singular or plural, and after giving it a lot of thought, I couldn't decide. "Savings account" is singular, but "savings" on its own is fairly ambiguous....any thoughts from the grammar crew here?

/tk

Yeah, while I am right with you in this thread and with respect to the deplorable nature of grammar in general, I think this is one of those exceptional (set out as separate; not extraordinary) cases where popular usage may end up trumping a set rule. The use of savings as a singular is very widespread, and at some point, that turns it from wrong to right.

As crappy as that is.

[revrew]

dbd1963 - Dude, it's OFF-TOPIC for a reason. We scratch our balls in the on-topic forum. Here, we only scratch them if we can do it in a grammatically correct manner.

I am increasingly aggravated with the virtual elimination of the serial comma in today's writing. It is becoming widely accepted, especially in my field (publishing; I'm an editor by trade), to drop that last comma in a series: "planes, trains and automobiles" rather than "planes, trains, and automobiles." NOOO!

Here is a case where saving the extra keystroke actually hinders clear communications. I recall reading several articles where I read a series, only to be seriously confused by it, when placing the comma would have clarified the meaning. The serial comma should NOT be dropped. It is NOT acceptable to omit it. Period. I don't give a fig what the almighty Usage Panel says. Sticklers, unite!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by revrew

dbd1963 - Dude, it's OFF-TOPIC for a reason. We scratch our balls in the on-topic forum. Here, we only scratch them if we can do it in a grammatically correct manner.

I am increasingly aggravated with the virtual elimination of the serial comma in today's writing. It is becoming widely accepted, especially in my field (publishing; I'm an editor by trade), to drop that last comma in a series: "planes, trains and automobiles" rather than "planes, trains, and automobiles." NOOO!

Here is a case where saving the extra keystroke actually hinders clear communications. I recall reading several articles where I read a series, only to be seriously confused by it, when placing the comma would have clarified the meaning. The serial comma should NOT be dropped. It is NOT acceptable to omit it. Period. I don't give a fig what the almighty Usage Panel says. Sticklers, unite!

Actually, dropping the last comma has been accepted in the AP style book, the standard for grammar (and other word usage topics) in print journalism, which is adopted also by most mainstream Internet publications, for at least two decades now.

As a former reporter, I have never had an issue understanding the lack of it (especially when you view the comma as a replacement for "and", which is always included in the last part of the series in these sentences).

[Chief Rum]

And, BTW, as to your first sentence, dbdwhatevernumbersareinhisname wrote that in 2006! He may not even be around anymore.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Actually, dropping the last comma has been accepted in the AP style book, the standard for grammar (and other word usage topics) in print journalism, which is adopted also by most mainstream Internet publications, for at least two decades now.

Same with CP style.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Actually, dropping the last comma has been accepted in the AP style book, the standard for grammar (and other word usage topics) in print journalism, which is adopted also by most mainstream Internet publications, for at least two decades now.

...and I give thanks to my parents, God and Ayn Rand.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by revrew

I am increasingly aggravated with the virtual elimination of the serial comma in today's writing.

While I'm with you in principle, I'd probably use a different adjective in this thread. Strict usage of the term "aggravated" is to say that an existing condition was made worse, rather than saying someone was annoyed.

[dontreadthis]

It's "cool, calm, and collected (as opposed to collective)".
Just hearing that disappoints me.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dontreadthis

It's "cool, calm and collected (as opposed to collective)".
Just hearing that disappoints me.

Fixed that for ya.

[Ajaxab]

I am becoming increasingly irritated by the use of the alleged word 'impactful.' Sure, language is always changing, but for some reason this coinage just bugs me.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Actually, dropping the last comma has been accepted in the AP style book, the standard for grammar (and other word usage topics) in print journalism, which is adopted also by most mainstream Internet publications, for at least two decades now.

As a former reporter, I have never had an issue understanding the lack of it (especially when you view the comma as a replacement for "and", which is always included in the last part of the series in these sentences).

The AP style book may accept confusion as a standard of doing business, but us hardliners certainly don't. The serial comma is something over which I've fought kind of hardcore in my editing and teaching. There are no disadvantages to using it, but all sorts of problems can crop up when it isn't used.

The AP dropping it probably has more to do with print costs (same reason for not having two spaces after a period in print -- saves ink and paper) than grammar.

Now when you go to the grocery store later please pick up food for dinner, bananas and cat food.

[kurtism]

Cue Vampire Weekend.

[MikeVic]

Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Now when you go to the grocery store later please pick up food for dinner, bananas and cat food.

I don't see how an extra comma would make that any more or less comprehensible.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't see how an extra comma would make that any more or less comprehensible.

I haven't been following this thread, until I saw the Vampire Weekend thing. But to me, if that sentence doesn't have an extra comma, it doesn't sound right. It's more confusing.

I actually thought in that case, you'd use a semi colon or even a colon?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't see how an extra comma would make that any more or less comprehensible.

Neither do I. I often eat bananas and cat food for dinner.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I haven't been following this thread, until I saw the Vampire Weekend thing. But to me, if that sentence doesn't have an extra comma, it doesn't sound right. It's more confusing.

I actually thought in that case, you'd use a semi colon or even a colon?

I think a colon would be awkward, although technically correct. Anyway the sentence as written works perfectly.

[Passacaglia]

I guess without the comma, one might think that 'bananas and cat food' are together, so we're talking about food for bananas and cats.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I guess without the comma, one might think that 'bananas and cat food' are together, so we're talking about food for bananas and cats.

Theoretically that's true, you could construct a sentence without the comma that would be misleading. But there are numerous stylistic choices you can make to avoid that problem before you get to the question of the last comma.

[MikeVic]

If I read:
Now when you go to the grocery store later please pick up food for dinner bananas and cat food.

I'd think it says that I'd be picking up food for "dinner bananas," what ever that is.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Theoretically that's true, you could construct a sentence without the comma that would be misleading. But there are numerous stylistic choices you can make to avoid that problem before you get to the question of the last comma.

If I wrote that exact sentence, word-for-word, it would be:

Now when you go to the grocery store later, please pick up food for dinner: bananas and cat food.

But I'd probably re-arrange it if I really did write it.

[st.cronin]

I don't think that's right, that implies that you are having bananas and cat food for dinner. This would be better -

When you go to the grocery store later please pick up: Food for dinner, bananas and cat food.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."

Oxford comma?

[MikeVic]

Whoa wait, so we're not picking up bananas and cat food for dinner?