The 2013 NBA Playoffs

[bulletsponge]

when are the western conference games starting? these eastern games are reminding me why i stopped watching "NBA action"

[MrBug708]

Steph Curry would be nice on the Lakers

[Groundhog]

I turn the game off for 5 mins and what happens...

[murrayyyyy]

Oh no... Crawford... Grizz are in trouble.

[Logan]

This has been unbelievable. A 26 point lead down to 6 (courtesy of a 20-0 run) in about 5 minutes.

They've stabilized a bit but I think the Knicks can very easily blow it the full way.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hawks-Pacers was on the TV while we were at dinner. Made girls high school hoops look like offensive juggernauts. Just staggeringly ugly, Hawks went nearly 16 minutes without putting a ball through the hoop (only "basket" came on a goaltending call).

And they seem like a classic case of "WTF do you do with this mess?". Only 3 players under contract for next season, Horford the only starter among them. I don't think you can really call that "blowing the team up" even if they leave. At the same time, they weren't nearly bad enough to get into the lottery (which is kind of scary actually). They'll get crap from the draft, they're an unattractive f.a. destination considering the state of the team & the ownership. They look like the definition of sustained mediocrity, except that seems almost insulting to the word mediocre.

[hoopsguy]

Late to the party today, but I'll take Crapshoot's side on this argument. Comparing injuries/sickness/etc doesn't seem like an argument you can actually win. Just sticking with the Bulls, I recall a few seasons ago that Deng was getting tarred and feathered for missing games. But over the last 3-4 seasons he has been among the league leaders in minutes while playing through all kinds of ailments. I think fans making judgments from afar on injuries are far less informed than they are about evaluating events on the field of play. In fact, I'm not sure how that is even debatable.

Specific to Rose - I'm not sure why anyone thinks he doesn't want to play in these games. Prior to this injury, he played through all kinds of injuries last season. His teammates and coaches at every level have raved about his work ethic and lack of ego. These things do not add up with someone who wants to hang out on the sidelines in a suit rather than play.

Does this viewpoint encapsulate the entirety of my opinions on Rose? Nope ... as a fan I totally wanted him back earlier to see what this team could do in the playoffs. But if I take any kind of a long view, I think it is pretty clear that this Bulls team wasn't going anywhere this season. Too many guys beat up, and barring a LBJ injury the Heat are rolling to the finals.

Rose is 24 years old, hopefully has 10 more years to play, and if he isn't confident in his ability to play at full throttle then it seems like a needless risk to play this season.

Now, does that viewpoint suck for Nate Robinson as he throws up on the sideline and Joakim Noah as he battles through broken feet? Yep, it definitely does.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by whomario

Hope you got to see the game, SI ?

Rockets are a fun team, happy for them and that aditional game (or more ?) will definitely help them in the long run. I think McHale said sth about wanting them to win game 4 and be up in game 5 late, because those are the moments where you can really be tested.

Durant should have shot the ball way more, instead of trying to get his teammates involved kinda forcedly. If you shoot 12-16 and loose by 2, you didn´t shoot enough.

Asik and Parsons were great last night.

Also, Delfino did this (and yeah, Durant had a huge dunk as well )

I did get to make it to game 4 and it was great! Going this deep really helps the young team with experience going forward. I'll see if I can get some pics up later on.

SI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I think it is pretty clear that this Bulls team wasn't going anywhere this season. Too many guys beat up, and barring a LBJ injury the Heat are rolling to the finals.

Rose is 24 years old, hopefully has 10 more years to play, and if he isn't confident in his ability to play at full throttle then it seems like a needless risk to play this season.

So should he just sit out the next 5 seasons until the Heat get broken up?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So should he just sit out the next 5 seasons until the Heat get broken up?

Just for the entertainment value, I do hope he's not "comfortable" enough yet to start next season.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So should he just sit out the next 5 seasons until the Heat get broken up?

Yeah, this is the argument I don't get. If you don't have the best team in the league, why bother playing? Shouldn't Melo, George, Deron Williams, etc all call it a day because they can't beat Miami?

The whole point of sports is to compete. Not sit around and wait until your team is deemed the best and then play.

[Matthean]

At least Rose has the chance for a dramatic Game 7 return.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So should he just sit out the next 5 seasons until the Heat get broken up?

That seems like a little bit of an extreme position to take. But perhaps you would concede that there is less incentive to rush back from an injury when there is not a realistic title window this season?

Forecasting on roster makeups beyond this season doesn't make as much sense - too much can happen. The current season, barring injury, was set in stone at the trade deadline. If Rose is still hurt in Oct/Nov 2013, then maybe your scenario comes into play. But I'm guessing he is ready to go then, thereby rendering this question moot.

[molson]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

But I'm guessing he is ready to go then, thereby rendering this question moot.

From what his brother said that appears to depend on what the Bulls do this off-season. I can see what you're saying from the perspective of the team, that maybe if they're not a playoff team or something it makes sense to just shut him down early. But obviously they haven't done that, and they want him to play. He's chosen not to, and kind of put himself in the position of being the GM. With him, they're the #2 team in the East - when will that be any different in the foreseeable future? #2 can beat #1 sometimes if everything falls together.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, this is the argument I don't get. If you don't have the best team in the league, why bother playing? Shouldn't Melo, George, Deron Williams, etc all call it a day because they can't beat Miami?

The whole point of sports is to compete. Not sit around and wait until your team is deemed the best and then play.

There is an element of managing risk. An element than is hardly unique to the Rose situation. For example, the Nationals shut down their healthy pitcher last fall due to fear of future injury.

Comparing that to a healthy Melo or George taking their teams into a playoff series after playing 80 games ... that is an argument I don't get.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Specific to Rose - I'm not sure why anyone thinks he doesn't want to play in these games. Prior to this injury, he played through all kinds of injuries last season. His teammates and coaches at every level have raved about his work ethic and lack of ego. These things do not add up with someone who wants to hang out on the sidelines in a suit rather than play.

Everyone plays through injuries in the NBA. But everyone doesn't have a PR team running around telling every reporter how tough their client is for playing with a sore toe.

I think Rose wants to play, I just think his brother and other reps don't. They think it's bad for his image to lose to Miami. They think it's bad to look rusty for a few weeks. His shoe already came out and there isn't much incentive from a marketing standpoint to come back. For those unaware of the relationship, his brother/manager has a ton of control over his life. Derrick doesn't take a piss without asking him for permission.

So I think the "muscle memory" stuff is a lie. I think he'd be fine to play, just as all the doctors have told him. If he's still having issues with "muscle memory", he didn't rehab. For those who haven't had an ACL tear, you are technically able to do most stuff by the 6 month mark. You can't come back at that point, but that's where you start getting your muscles in tune for the next month or two.

All I know right now is that he is the healthiest guy on the team and not playing.

[Lathum]

How is being cleared by doctors, practicing in full with the team, and dunking in warm ups rushing anything?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

There is an element of managing risk. An element than is hardly unique to the Rose situation. For example, the Nationals shut down their healthy pitcher last fall due to fear of future injury.

Comparing that to a healthy Melo or George taking their teams into a playoff series after playing 80 games ... that is an argument I don't get.

The doctors have said that he is at the same risk of re-injury as anyone else in the league. He is no more likely to get injured than George or Melo. So why wouldn't it be OK for them to just take the season off since they can't beat Miami either?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The doctors have said that he is at the same risk of re-injury as anyone else in the league.

The fact that we know that tells me that the Bulls are really pissed about this situation no matter what they're saying publicly. Was it even legal for them to disclose so much information? "Backing up their guy" would mean saying he can't go and shutting him down. Instead, the Bulls doctors tell the world that he's ready to go, and the Bulls keep acting as if he'll come back any day now, and that it's just up to him.

[Lathum]

Should have been a foul on Durant

[sterlingice]

There's going to be a fight in Houston if the refs don't clamp down

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

The fact that we know that tells me that the Bulls are really pissed about this situation no matter what they're saying publicly. Was it even legal for them to disclose so much information? "Backing up their guy" would mean saying he can't go and shutting him down. Instead, the Bulls doctors tell the world that he's ready to go, and the Bulls keep acting as if he'll come back any day now, and that it's just up to him.

Bulls have been pretty quiet about things. Probably realize that starting a war with the franchise player doesn't really result in anything good happening. My guess is it's a reluctant acceptance of the situation.

There is some tension between the two sides though. After Derrick's manager trashed the team and organization, the Bulls leaked the "he was cleared" info to a local reporter. This apparently upset the Rose camp. And then there is also the part where the Rose camp wanted the Bulls to come out and say he was done for the year a month or two ago and the Bulls won't do it. They don't feel there is a reason to shut someone down who is perfectly healthy.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Everyone plays through injuries in the NBA. But everyone doesn't have a PR team running around telling every reporter how tough their client is for playing with a sore toe.

I think Rose wants to play, I just think his brother and other reps don't. They think it's bad for his image to lose to Miami. They think it's bad to look rusty for a few weeks. His shoe already came out and there isn't much incentive from a marketing standpoint to come back. For those unaware of the relationship, his brother/manager has a ton of control over his life. Derrick doesn't take a piss without asking him for permission.

So I think the "muscle memory" stuff is a lie. I think he'd be fine to play, just as all the doctors have told him. If he's still having issues with "muscle memory", he didn't rehab. For those who haven't had an ACL tear, you are technically able to do most stuff by the 6 month mark. You can't come back at that point, but that's where you start getting your muscles in tune for the next month or two.

All I know right now is that he is the healthiest guy on the team and not playing.

Suggesting he is the healthiest guy on the team is pretty clearly hyperbole, and it derails a lot of good points you make in the earlier paragraphs.

I also don't think that comparing your ACL tear to the Rose injury is necessarily a perfect comparison. I'm sure you get this on some level, but you've now pulled it into two posts on the topic.

For every Adrian Peterson comparison where someone crushed the recovery and came back faster + better than ever, there are a slew of "damn, dude came back too fast and screwed himself" stories. Just to quickly pick two: Bill Simmons wrote about Arenas today and Tim Legler has commented about his return from injury costing him years of his career.

If the Thunder make it past the Rockets, at what point does Westbrook start hearing about how he is milking his meniscus injury when Artest came back from one in two weeks? I think that is a preposterous suggestion, but I'm raising it as a counter-point to all the Peterson comparisons people make.

No fans want to hear about injuries. No fans want to think that players aren't putting themselves out there for the team. I 100% get that. But suggesting guys sitting on the bench are soft rather than hurt is going to be wrong pretty often, and in those cases it is grossly unfair to the player.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Bulls have been pretty quiet about things. Probably realize that starting a war with the franchise player doesn't really result in anything good happening. My guess is it's a reluctant acceptance of the situation.

There is some tension between the two sides though. After Derrick's manager trashed the team and organization, the Bulls leaked the "he was cleared" info to a local reporter. This apparently upset the Rose camp. And then there is also the part where the Rose camp wanted the Bulls to come out and say he was done for the year a month or two ago and the Bulls won't do it. They don't feel there is a reason to shut someone down who is perfectly healthy.

The part about "shutting down" isn't consistent with what I've heard. The version of events I heard is that the team was ready to announce he was shut down for the year, but Rose didn't want to close the door on it. Which seems strange if he is all about managing PR, listening to his brother/agent/shoe company, or all the other things that have been suggested.

[murrayyyyy]

Changing from Rose... If you are CP3, do you want to come back? Griffin and Jordan seem to only understand lobs. Do you stay in LA and change color jerseys? Or do you go to NYC like you proposed at Melo's wedding?

[hoopsguy]

Is there a scenario for him to go to NYC and make the same money he could make with Clippers? Any realistic sign-and-trade, if he tried to push the Clippers in that corner?

[chadritt]

Clippers will probably let him chose the new coach

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Suggesting he is the healthiest guy on the team is pretty clearly hyperbole, and it derails a lot of good points you make in the earlier paragraphs.

Not really when you look at the Bulls injury report. He's healthier than Deng, Hinrich, Taj, Nate, Rip, VladRad, and Noah. I guess Boozer is healthy and some of the guys at the end of the bench who don't play. But the fact remains he's healthier than almost all the guys playing. That isn't really debatable.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I also don't think that comparing your ACL tear to the Rose injury is necessarily a perfect comparison. I'm sure you get this on some level, but you've now pulled it into two posts on the topic.

Then lets compare it to every other professional athlete over the last 20 some odd years. Find some with similar injuries that needed longer to come back.

And the comparison to Arenas is ridiculous. It was a completely different injury. Doctors told him not to play. Doctors are telling Rose to play to finish his rehab. Arenas actually came back early, Rose is past month 12.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

If the Thunder make it past the Rockets, at what point does Westbrook start hearing about how he is milking his meniscus injury when Artest came back from one in two weeks?

Westbrook has a different injury from Artest. And I imagine the "milking" comments would come when Westbrook is 2-3 months past the normal recovery time and his manager came out and said he wouldn't play if the team wasn't good enough.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

But suggesting guys sitting on the bench are soft rather than hurt is going to be wrong pretty often, and in those cases it is grossly unfair to the player.

Unless you have inside information, he is not hurt. Team doctors cleared him, his own personal doctors have cleared him. He is not hurt anymore.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Changing from Rose... If you are CP3, do you want to come back? Griffin and Jordan seem to only understand lobs. Do you stay in LA and change color jerseys? Or do you go to NYC like you proposed at Melo's wedding?

Where can he really go? Not many teams have cap room and why would the Clippers facilitate a S&T to a team that has no cap room?

He's in LA, they have a young team, it's not that bad of a situation. I think they should trade Bledsoe for a SF/SG and make a run at it next year. I'd go hard after someone like Paul Pierce if the Celtics decide to blow it up.

[molson]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

If the Thunder make it past the Rockets, at what point does Westbrook start hearing about how he is milking his meniscus injury when Artest came back from one in two weeks? I think that is a preposterous suggestion, but I'm raising it as a counter-point to all the Peterson comparisons people make.

Comparing Rose's injury recovery to one other guy isn't fair, but what about comparing it to every other modern pro athlete who has had the injury? Is there another pro athlete who was still unable to play at all 1 year after that injury? Obviously, off-seasons get in the way, so maybe it's a small sample size. But nobody comes to mind. At the very least, this is an abnormally long recovery time, which is surprising in a guy so young. Throw in the brother/manager's comments, and the whole team/doctor disconnect, and this is, at the very least, a very unusual athlete injury story. I think the speculation is fair from both sides of it when you have something so extreme and out of the ordinary.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Is there a scenario for him to go to NYC and make the same money he could make with Clippers? Any realistic sign-and-trade, if he tried to push the Clippers in that corner?

Looking at cap figures, there is no way unless the Clippers take back Chandler or Stoudemire(forgot about his horrible contract). About the only spot I can see Paul getting paid is in Dallas.

HoopsHype - NBA Salaries

Jesus, some GMs have done horrible. Hawks have a shit load of cap room but do you want to go there with Dwight or Al Jefferson? Paul may be stuck on the Clippers.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Where can he really go? Not many teams have cap room and why would the Clippers facilitate a S&T to a team that has no cap room?

He's in LA, they have a young team, it's not that bad of a situation. I think they should trade Bledsoe for a SF/SG and make a run at it next year. I'd go hard after someone like Paul Pierce if the Celtics decide to blow it up.

Celtics can't get rid of Pierce. He needs to retire in green, and not in some dumbass "1 day contract" kind of way. In a "plays whole career with one team" kind of way.

Otherwise I'll fucking stab Danny fucking Ainge.

Think that's a pretty common sentiment around here. Even if it costs them another year or two of being bad, it's worth it from that loyalty standpoint.

[RainMaker]

The Clippers could also hire a good coach. Why not throw a ton of money at Stan Van Gundy?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Where can he really go? Not many teams have cap room and why would the Clippers facilitate a S&T to a team that has no cap room?

He's in LA, they have a young team, it's not that bad of a situation. I think they should trade Bledsoe for a SF/SG and make a run at it next year. I'd go hard after someone like Paul Pierce if the Celtics decide to blow it up.

It's no secret in the NBA. Paul does not get along with Griffin or Jordan. It may be worth one less year to move to Atlanta which is closer to home. Isn't he from the North Carolina area?

Also the Clippers aren't that young. Five players have 10+ years experience and two more join that club next season. I'm just not sure if Dallas or Atlanta is a better situation (Well Dallas is because no state income taxes).

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The Clippers could also hire a good coach. Why not throw a ton of money at Stan Van Gundy?

Sterling is still there. They will not hire a good coach.

[bhlloy]

I think the Clippers could be really good with Bledsoe and Paul on the court at the same time. I wonder if you don't see what you can get for Griffin. He's probably worth too much in jersey sales and marketing to scumbag owner for them to even consider it but you could probably get a kings random relative to his play on the floor the second half of this season

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by molson

Comparing Rose's injury recovery to one other guy isn't fair, but what about comparing it to every other modern pro athlete who has had the injury? Is there another pro athlete who was still unable to play at all 1 year after that injury? Obviously, off-seasons get in the way, so maybe it's a small sample size. But nobody comes to mind. At the very least, this is an abnormally long recovery time, which is surprising in a guy so young. Throw in the brother/manager's comments, and the whole team/doctor disconnect, and this is, at the very least, a very unusual athlete injury story. I think the speculation is fair from both sides of it when you have something so extreme and out of the ordinary.

What window of time? Last 5 years? Last 25 years? Obviously there has been a lot of progress on putting knees back together again over the last generation.

What kind of knee injuries? Do multi-CL (ACL/MCL/PCL) blowouts count? Or just a strict ACL injury?

Just wondering what the criteria is for evaluating whether Rose is being a pussy by nursing this knee injury when his teammates are playing through bad flu, dammit!

Note: I think it is miserable luck for the Bulls that those players are dealing with a bad flu bug while Noah + Heinrich + Rose are out with injuries. I just don't think that should have any bearing on whether Rose suits up for games #88-89 of the season when he has missed the first 87.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

It's no secret in the NBA. Paul does not get along with Griffin or Jordan. It may be worth one less year to move to Atlanta which is closer to home. Isn't he from the North Carolina area?

Also the Clippers aren't that young. Five players have 10+ years experience and two more join that club next season. I'm just not sure if Dallas or Atlanta is a better situation (Well Dallas is because no state income taxes).

Their best players are young though. I don't know about his relationships, I just think from a talent standpoint, he'll have a tough time finding a team with more. And players seem to have a hard-on for playing in big markets.

Atlanta is interesting, although I don't see him being interested. I think Houston would give him a nice team to play with too and a quality GM to improve. Dallas has cap room but at Dirk's age, you maybe have another year or two before he is done.

Total long shot but New Orleans would be a good team to go back to. Paul, Gordon, Anderson, and Davis is a nice lineup moving forward. Plus they have a top 6 pick and some decent role players.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I think the Clippers could be really good with Bledsoe and Paul on the court at the same time. I wonder if you don't see what you can get for Griffin. He's probably worth too much in jersey sales and marketing to scumbag owner for them to even consider it but you could probably get a kings random relative to his play on the floor the second half of this season

I don't think you can be successful with both your guards being 6'0" and 6'1" (And if they are listed that tall, subtract two inches). Combine with Jordan and Griffin standing below the goal you would have to run the NBA Jams offense.

[Warhammer]

I am really beginning to hate the Clippers. These guys have been losing their cool all night.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I think the Clippers could be really good with Bledsoe and Paul on the court at the same time. I wonder if you don't see what you can get for Griffin. He's probably worth too much in jersey sales and marketing to scumbag owner for them to even consider it but you could probably get a kings random relative to his play on the floor the second half of this season

I keep thinking Kevin Love would be a great trade for the Clippers. Love is not happy up there and is from LA. Griffin gives Minnesota a legit player in return and someone that can sell tickets. Plus Rubio throwing alley-oops for the next few years would be fun.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Their best players are young though. I don't know about his relationships, I just think from a talent standpoint, he'll have a tough time finding a team with more. And players seem to have a hard-on for playing in big markets.

Atlanta is interesting, although I don't see him being interested. I think Houston would give him a nice team to play with too and a quality GM to improve. Dallas has cap room but at Dirk's age, you maybe have another year or two before he is done.

Total long shot but New Orleans would be a good team to go back to. Paul, Gordon, Anderson, and Davis is a nice lineup moving forward. Plus they have a top 6 pick and some decent role players.

Don't take this the wrong way. But who the hell are the best players who are young (I live in Vegas so I see every Clippers game on Prime). Jordan Crawford will be on his 13th year next season, Butler his 11th. They can't play Jordan, Odom or Griffin late in close games because they can't shoot from the line (38%, 47%, 66% respectively). The Warriors did a number on the Clippers by offering the max deal to Jordan.

I don't count Houston because of Lin's back loaded contract. Maybe they can find someone to take him. I don't know if it would work but J-Smoove in Houston might be scary.

I still think Dallas is interesting because of the personal tax breaks and a rich owner who likes to spend if he thinks he can win. Supposedly the reason DWill didn't sign there is because Cuban was filming Shark Tank and wasn't there to personally stroke his ego.

[GoldenEagle]

Grizz need to finish this.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I keep thinking Kevin Love would be a great trade for the Clippers. Love is not happy up there and is from LA. Griffin gives Minnesota a legit player in return and someone that can sell tickets. Plus Rubio throwing alley-oops for the next few years would be fun.

Keep Griffin, trade Jordan and im thrilled.

[RainMaker]

I also don't think the Clippers are that far off. Memphis is a solid team. Give them a good coach and grab a decent SF in the offseason and they're contending.

If you threw Danny Granger on that team, I think they'd be real tough. I'd do Bledsoe/Butler for Granger in a heartbeat for both teams.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Don't take this the wrong way. But who the hell are the best players who are young (I live in Vegas so I see every Clippers game on Prime). Jordan Crawford will be on his 13th year next season, Butler his 11th. They can't play Jordan, Odom or Griffin late in close games because they can't shoot from the line (38%, 47%, 66% respectively). The Warriors did a number on the Clippers by offering the max deal to Jordan.

Griffin and Jordan are 24. Bledsoe is 23. They are their best players besides Paul. Crawford is a nice player, but gunners off the bench who don't play defense are a dime a dozen in this league.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Griffin and Jordan are 24. Bledsoe is 23. They are their best players besides Paul. Crawford is a nice player, but gunners off the bench who don't play defense are a dime a dozen in this league.

Gunners with the last name Crawrod who don't play defense are a dime a dozen in this league.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Keep Griffin, trade Jordan and im thrilled.

Didn't you hear Kahn got fired... But I agree, they need to figure out how to dump Jordan on someone.

Love's contract is too nice to move unless you are getting valuable picks in Minnesota. I think Gasol for Love is more likely if Lakers attach picks or can trick Philly into taking a horrible contract again.

[sterlingice]

Rockets ran out of steam. One hell of a fun season. Can't wait to see what Morey does in the offseason.

SI

[GoldenEagle]

Joey Crawford taking over in Memphis.