Soccer Draft

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I assume the guy you are thinking of has already been taken... who do you think is better at that particular role?

[Katon]

Drogba when he's fully motivated and on his game is very much the best target forward in the world, and is as difficult to play against as most of the guys who went in the first couple of rounds. On the other hand, he hasn't been fully motivated and on his game all that consistently since Mourinho left, and was especially dodgy during the Scolari era, so I'm not sure how much of that peak form bhlloy can really expect to get.

For my pick, I'll go with another of the world's best target forwards, an unselfish player who may not be quite as devastating as Drogba at his best but has been a lot more consistent recently, and has a World Cup Golden Boot to his name:

Pick 8.6, Miroslav Klose, FW, Bayern Munich

[DaddyTorgo]

great. i just woke up from a killer-headache inspired nap. give me a few minutes to get some food down and i've got my picks

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Round 8.5 - Ricardo Carvalho, central defender, Chelsea

I know he's missed some time this year but when he plays he is one of the best around, and better than his club teammate Mr. England Captain.

you're an a-hole. he was going to be my #2 choice at DC

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I assume the guy you are thinking of has already been taken... who do you think is better at that particular role?

i'd go with who Katon picked, or somebody else

[DaddyTorgo]

8.7 Fabio Cannavaro - DC, Real Madrid/Italy
9.1 Philippe Mexes, DC, AS Roma/France

[Katon]

Pick 9.2 Francesco Totti, AM/FW, AS Roma

[Big Fo]

One of my favorites. To demonstrate how cool Totti is, here is a youtube video of him scoring a backheel penalty in training.

I want to go ahead and finish up the backline so

Round 9.3 - Jose Bosingwa, right back, Chelsea

Fast as hell, supports the attack well and is good enough defensively. Currently having a good first season at Chelsea after being a key member of a Porto team which won the league four out of five seasons. fwiw (not much) he was the most expensive fullback in world soccer history for several months (£16.3m) before Dani Alves signed for Barcelona (€29m).

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'd go with who Katon picked, or somebody else

For me, Klose doesn't fit the role of a target man. Better forward than Drogba right now - sure. But I already filled that role with Huntelaar and Kaka can also play forward if needed.

I think I know who the "somebody else" is, and I nearly went with him, but he's clearly not as skillful as Drogba is and doesn't create the space and chances for his teammates IMO. I think he's just about a step below him, even with Drogba's poor last couple of seasons.

[BishopMVP]

Well is he picking Chelsea Drogba or Ivory Coast Drogba? Because I would pick Ivory Coast Drogba over Torres or any other forward. Anyways, following up with finishing the backline....

Vincent Kompany, Belgium/Man City

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

9.5 LB Gael Clichy Arsenal

Just like with Arsenal, Clichy and Sagna will be my fullbacks.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Well is he picking Chelsea Drogba or Ivory Coast Drogba? Because I would pick Ivory Coast Drogba over Torres or any other forward. Anyways, following up with finishing the backline....

Vincent Kompany, Belgium/Man City

nice pick. i considered it as well.

[bhlloy]

Well, if nobody liked the Drogba pick, I guess nobody is going to like this one either. Really I don't think he has been "that" bad this season for Chelsea, and he has 3 goals in 4 games for the German national team including a 30 yard piledriver that sunk my Wales team on the weekend. I really think he's good value right here and he fits in really well with the way my team is shaping up.

9.6 Michael Ballack, CM Chelsea/Germany

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I like the Drogba pick. I'd considered him. The guy is lethal and the when doing the judging I will be seeing his ability to change a game just as much as the fact that his season hasn't been the greatest. I think there has to be a balance between how good the guy is vs. how good the guy has been recently. I fully expect Drogba to return to form, it's not like he's done IMO, so I think he's a good pick.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Well, if nobody liked the Drogba pick, I guess nobody is going to like this one either. Really I don't think he has been "that" bad this season for Chelsea, and he has 3 goals in 4 games for the German national team including a 30 yard piledriver that sunk my Wales team on the weekend. I really think he's good value right here and he fits in really well with the way my team is shaping up.

9.6 Michael Ballack, CM Chelsea/Germany

If we're talking about this season's form, Ballack shouldn't even be starting for Chelsea at the moment (granted, two of the people starting ahead of him have already been drafted). He was one of our key players down the stretch last year, but hasn't been close to his best this year - like about 3/4 of the team, really.

[GoldenEagle]

9.7 - Javier Zanetti - A true work-horse who can play multiple positions. He is old, but will be the spirit of my squad.

10.1 - Diego Forlan - I really like La Liga based strikers. I don't why, but Forlan scores a lot of goals for an average team in a top league.

[bhlloy]

Time to pick up my big, physical center back who will play in the middle of my back three. Pretty much an ever present in one of the best teams in Europe this season, and his center back partner got taken 5 rounds ago.

10.2 Martin Skrtel Liverpool/Slovakia

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Perhaps a risky move, but selecting another forward here will allow me to offer two different looks from the forward spot: the dynamism and playmaking of Pato, and the target ability of a bigger forward. He's been suffering with injuries all year, but reading the rules in the first post (current form, so injuries matter) makes me think it's not a problem - he scored twice yesterday, so I'd say his current form is fine.

10.3 Emmanuel Adebayor, ST Arsenal

[BishopMVP]

Maybe a bit of a controversial pick here. Yes, his form in the new year has been terrible, but he's still 4th in the Premier League in goals and he was sold for 32.5m pounds this summer, plus I think he'll benefit from not being a focal point. Robinho, Man City/Brazil

[BishopMVP]

Dola - since this is moving at a nice pace, are people interested in expanding it to 18 rounds?

[Big Fo]

Round 10.5 - Maxi Rodríguez, midfielder, Atlético Madrid

Hardworking midfielder that can play in the middle or as a right winger. He's the captain of his club and a fixture for the Argentina team. His stunning goal vesus Mexico was one of the best moments from World Cup 2006.

[Big Fo]

18 rounds would be cool for me.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, I'd like to expand it a bit more.

[DaddyTorgo]

fine by me to expand it

[Katon]

Expanding it works for me.

Pick 10.6 - Lassana Diarra, DM, Real Madrid

One of the hottest up-and-coming defensive midfielders in Europe, he was a key player in Portsmouth's FA Cup win last year and stepped straight into Real's first team after signing for them in January.

[DaddyTorgo]

10.7 - Fabio Grosso, D/WB L, OL/Italy

(11.1 is coming)

[DaddyTorgo]

11.1 - Alessandro Del Piero, FC, Juventus

I debated a couple other strikers here, but Del Piero had equivelent numbers, and makes more sense tactically rather than having say 2 target men. Although I can still grab target men later. Plus he is my favorite trequartista since the Divine Ponytail.

[Katon]

And, completing my starting lineup,

11.2 - Petr Cech, GK, Chelsea

The anchor of a Chelsea back line which has achieved the Premiership's best defensive record despite massive injury issues.

[DaddyTorgo]

great value pick in cech. i think pretty much everyone cept for you + me + whoever picked buffon still has goalies to pick if i'm not mistaken - sad but true

[DaddyTorgo]

i've got my eye on at least 3-4 guys who have as of yet gone undrafted so i hope by the time things swing back around to me again that most of them will still be there

2 ST
1 MC
1 winger
1 defender

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

great value pick in cech. i think pretty much everyone cept for you + me + whoever picked buffon still has goalies to pick if i'm not mistaken - sad but true

Well I suppose we'll see come the end, but I didn't find picking a goalie early to have much relative value compared to other positions. The league is only 7 teams deep.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Well I suppose we'll see come the end, but I didn't find picking a goalie early to have much relative value compared to other positions. The league is only 7 teams deep.

well it may very well be my bias as a former goalie, but if you're actually constructing a "team" versus "drafting the best available 11 players" then you have to place a high value on the keeper position, as the organizer of the defense, the last line of defense, etc.

if i was looking at putting all 11 of my guys on the field, i'd much rather have Casillas or Buffon behind them organizing the defense and inspiring the team with great saves then [insert any other keeper in the world] .

But then again maybe I'm looking at the draft in a fundamentally different way, which would explain why I drafted Del Piero versus say someone who scored one more goal then him during the same time period but styleistically wouldn't fit (it'd be the equivelent of drafting shaq + dwight howard onto your nba fantasy team and playing howard at PF)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I understand your point and agree to some extent, I just feel that the depth available at keeper - Cech just went in the 11th round - to be deeper than the other positions. To each his own.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I understand your point and agree to some extent, I just feel that the depth available at keeper - Cech just went in the 11th round - to be deeper than the other positions. To each his own.

however i'd argue that Cech is a clear drop-off from Casillas & Buffon. And in turn there's maybe 1-2 other keepers at the level of Cech and then everyone else drops off even more precipitously.

It's all good - I'm happy with my team and I'm sure you are too.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

well it may very well be my bias as a former goalie, but if you're actually constructing a "team" versus "drafting the best available 11 players" then you have to place a high value on the keeper position, as the organizer of the defense, the last line of defense, etc.

if i was looking at putting all 11 of my guys on the field, i'd much rather have Casillas or Buffon behind them organizing the defense and inspiring the team with great saves then.

Even though I'm currently a goalie too I (clearly ) agree with RonnieDobbs here. There are going to be 14 goalies picked, and probably no more than 7 in the first 16 rounds. And I see the difference numbers 3-14 to be fairly negligible, as well as the difference between Iker Casillas and goalie #7 (I can think of 4 undrafted right now) to be much less than the difference between Cristiano Ronaldo and Maxi Rodriguez or Lionel Messi and Alessandro Del Piero. Or goalie #7 + Rio Ferdinand > Iker Casillas + Mexes or Cannavaro imo. Certainly goalie #7 + Rio > Petr Cech + Giorgio Chiellini

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Even though I'm currently a goalie too I (clearly ) agree with RonnieDobbs here. There are going to be 14 goalies picked, and probably no more than 7 in the first 16 rounds. And I see the difference numbers 3-14 to be fairly negligible, as well as the difference between Iker Casillas and goalie #7 (I can think of 4 undrafted right now) to be much less than the difference between Cristiano Ronaldo and Maxi Rodriguez or Lionel Messi and Alessandro Del Piero. Or goalie #7 + Rio Ferdinand > Iker Casillas + Mexes or Cannavaro imo.

Aaaah...but Mexes may not even end up starting for me in the end. I may move Ramos inside to CB and draft another wingback.

Would I rather have Messi...sure. But would I rather have Messi + goalie #7 over Casillas + Del Piero? Not really.

I'd make the argument that Casillas ( & Buffon) are degrees of ability better at their positions and have a much greater impact on the game as a whole over [keeper #14] then Messi does over say Del Piero. Messi or Del Piero still need teammates to perform at their optimum levels - someone like Casillas performed at a "clear cut #1 in the world" status even on a team where defending was an afterthought.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Even though I'm currently a goalie too I (clearly ) agree with RonnieDobbs here. There are going to be 14 goalies picked, and probably no more than 7 in the first 16 rounds. And I see the difference numbers 3-14 to be fairly negligible, as well as the difference between Iker Casillas and goalie #7 (I can think of 4 undrafted right now) to be much less than the difference between Cristiano Ronaldo and Maxi Rodriguez or Lionel Messi and Alessandro Del Piero. Or goalie #7 + Rio Ferdinand > Iker Casillas + Mexes or Cannavaro imo. Certainly goalie #7 + Rio > Petr Cech + Giorgio Chiellini

I'd also argue that there AT A MINIMUM 4 offensive talents that I could pick right now that would be able to start on my team and likely most of the teams - or at least be strong arguments. It's all about where you think the relative value is. I'd argue that there's a much deeper pool of talent as far as strikers go (and even as far as midfielders go) then there is in GK's.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Aaaah...but Mexes may not even end up starting for me in the end. I may move Ramos inside to CB and draft another wingback.

Would I rather have Messi...sure. But would I rather have Messi + goalie #7 over Casillas + Del Piero? Not really.

I'd make the argument that Casillas ( & Buffon) are degrees of ability better at their positions and have a much greater impact on the game as a whole over [keeper #14] then Messi does over say Del Piero. Messi or Del Piero still need teammates to perform at their optimum levels - someone like Casillas performed at a "clear cut #1 in the world" status even on a team where defending was an afterthought.

I don't have Setanta or FSC, so my exposure is limited to Casillas and Buffon compared to their English counterparts, but I watched those CL matches.

I rate the goalies Casillas - Buffon - group of 3-4, with possibly 1 guy slightly better at #3. Now, if Casillas had still been around rounds 2-3 I would have been considering him, but picking him above Ronaldo and Messi is inexcusable - and saying they need talent around them more than Casillas is a lie, imagine an MLS team or lower team in any Big 4 league, would they benefit more from Ronaldo/Messi or from Casillas? Once Casillas was gone, there was a clear step down to Buffon with his injuries, and once he was picked it made no sense to grab a goalie round 6 when I could wait 10 rounds and get an equivalent player.

btw - I'm gone until at least 930, probably 12 if we make the championship game in indoor playoffs tonight. RonnieDobbs has my next pick, but I may hold it up in Round 12 if Big Fo gets back shortly and things move fast. Feel free to jump me after 2 hours on the clock if that's the case.

[Big Fo]

Round 11.3 - Antonio Cassano, winger/playmaker forward, Sampdoria

The former Roma/Bari star and Roma/Real Madrid misfit is back to his best after a few years wasted due to a bad attitude and a lack of fitness. He will offer some tactical flexibility to the team, with Ronaldo able to play on both flanks while Cassano and Maxi Rodriquez each offering something a little different. Or all three of them could play in a 4-3-3 with Maxi in the middle.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

FOR BISHOP MVP
11.4 Ashley Young, W Aston Villa/England.

13 goals 23 assists last two seasons, and the first ever player to win three FA Premiership Player of the Month awards in the same year.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

11.5 Edwin van der Sar GK Manchester United

While there may be technically superior keepers out there, van der Sar will fit in my scheme perfectly as he is a fantastic distributor of the ball. My team is definitely going the we'll-score-one-more route and with Henry and Ribery available on the wings to receive long balls and start the attack, van der Sar will be very useful.

[bhlloy]

This guy fits in very nicely with what I want to do, even though he doesn't play that position for his club team any more I still think he's the best on the board. Gives me a nice option on the wing in a more attacking formation also.

11.6 Emmanuel Eboue, RWB/RW Arsenal/Ivory Coast

[Katon]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Aaaah...but Mexes may not even end up starting for me in the end. I may move Ramos inside to CB and draft another wingback.

Would I rather have Messi...sure. But would I rather have Messi + goalie #7 over Casillas + Del Piero? Not really.

But look at where the keepers are going - you could've had Messi + Buffon (or Casillas, if bhlloy stuck with Buffon) compared to Casillas + Del Piero. Goalie #7 is irrelevant.

Even if you wouldn't have waited for round 11, I'd take Messi + Buffon over Casillas + Arshavin, and Buffon almost certainly would've been there at round 7.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Katon

But look at where the keepers are going - you could've had Messi + Buffon (or Casillas, if bhlloy stuck with Buffon) compared to Casillas + Del Piero. Goalie #7 is irrelevant.

Even if you wouldn't have waited for round 11, I'd take Messi + Buffon over Casillas + Arshavin, and Buffon almost certainly would've been there at round 7.

i suppose that's true. but picking #1 i wasn't sure if there'd be an early run on goalies and i'd be left having to wait 14 picks and end up with someone clearly worse. because of that and knowing that the dropoff was far more severe arguably than the dropoff between say messi+zlatan, I feel fine with my pick. i didn't want to get stuck picking the #14 keeper because I didn't take a keeper at #1

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Saying keeper #14 doesn't make any sense. At worst it would have been keeper #7, and to me that's a HUGE difference.

[DaddyTorgo]

good point...good point

[DaddyTorgo]

eh - i think there's a huge difference between #1 keeper and #7 keeper

[GoldenEagle]

11.7 - Robin Van Persie - A versatile player to add to my bench who can play on the left wing or as withdrawn attacker. He has had a bit of a form dip, but seems to be recovering.

12.1 - Julio Cesar - In my opinion, he is just as good as some of the goalkeepers taken earlier in the draft. He can show up in big games (see home leg vs Man U) and communicates well.

[DaddyTorgo]

nice pick with Van Persie

[Big Fo]

Julio Cesar is one of the value picks of this draft imo.