Leach Fired!

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

UNLV has an opening and I think they would be willing to take a chance on him.

They would take him in a second. An even better fit if they hadn't just hired Brady Hoke would be San Diego State. Long a mystery why they have not been better with the recruiting base they have, Leach would turn them into a top none AQ school for sure.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We aren't really comparing Big 12 defenses to those in the SEC? Florida had a down year after they lost some of their biggest weapons. Talentwise, I wouldn't put them that high up in the SEC in terms of offense this season. Like I've said, I just don't think that offense will translate all that well in the SEC. The defenses are just too fast.

Sure, let's compare. Leach faced 3 of the top 8 defenses in FBS and put up the numbers I posted (24, 31, 41 points). Kansas State is another team that had a top 20 defense in the other 11 games, but gave up 739 yards and 66 points to a TT team with a QB starting his first game (aka Leach doesn't need multiple 1st-round picks or have down years - he plugs guys in and keeps leading the nation in passing). Meyer faced 2 top 20 defenses (Alabama and LSU) and scored 13 points in each. Florida also played 2 defenses between 21 and 42 and put up 23 vs. SC and 24 vs. UT.

And that basic offense has appeared in the SEC - Hal Mumme's Air Raid at Kentucky - of which Leach was the offensive coordinator for 2 years. And those teams had no trouble scoring.

Meyer and Leach don't run the same offenses. While they are both called "the spread", they are vastly different philosophies and approaches to the offensive game. Florida runs a spread option that relies heavily on the QB running the ball while Texas Tech does none of that. To compare the two is just nonsense.

Yes, we all know the difference between an offense that relies on QB read options and one that focuses on short passes, but it's the same basic philosophy - spread the other team out, isolate 1v1 matchups. And they're dismissed for the same exact reasons - "gimmick" offenses that "could never work in the SEC" due to "team speed".

His job is to coach football, not make public disgraces out of players. If he doesn't like the player, then cut him from the team. Suspend him for the season. What he did had nothing to do with football and everything to do with embarassing a kid he didn't like.

I didn't realize Mike Leach made this incident public. Is singling out a kid to run laps or wind sprints publically embarassing them now too?

Les Miles beat Florida at the Swamp last year and kicked the shit out of the great Mike Leach in a bowl game with TT best team ever.

No. If you're talking about Ole Miss then Texas Tech with its "gimmick offense that would never fly in the SEC" put up 469 yards and 34 points in a game they allegedly had the shit kicked out of them.

Brian Kelly took a team to a BCS game in his 3rd year at a school that has never been good at football. He was a bad pass interference call in the Big 12 Championship Game away from playing Alabama for the title. Leach mustered a 5-3 record in the Big 12 in one of the conferences weakest seasons in recent memory.

If you're talking about Brian Kelly making the BCS in his 3rd year, then that was last year and Mike Leach/Texas Tech was 5 spots higher in the BCS rankings than Cincinnati. And Cincy wasn't a Texas loss away from making it - TCU would have been higher. But other than that, I don't see what any of this misdirection has to do with Brian Kelly (who you should know I think is a really good coach and am hoping will quickly change this stat) never beating a team ranked higher than 16th while Mike Leach has done it at least once in each of the last 3 seasons.

[RainMaker]

BishopMVP, we will bump this in the offseason and show all the major programs offering him jobs. I say he's not major program caliber, you say he is. Lets see what the major programs have to say this offseason. That'll determine who is right.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

But I would still argue that the top HALF of the ACC would win the BE....

I would love to see you make that argument with a straight face.

I think you can reasonably say that the top two teams in the ACC (GT and VPI) would have competed for the Big East title this season, but you can turn around and say that Cincy probably could/would have won the ACC this season, as well. Cincy won the close ones this season, while GT and VPI did not.

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.

Only the hugest of ACC homers would claim that the top half of the ACC would finish ahead of a 12-win Cincy this season. The Big East and ACC are relatively even conferences at this point and, as much at folks want to argue it, after the SEC, the other five BCS conferences are all pretty similar in strength. The Massey Ratings, which compiles different computer rankings bare this out:

 PAY COF D1A CLA LAZ   ARG ALB ALD WLK MTN        Rank, Conference             ASH HOW BIH IMS ACU   SOR KMV RYN DOL SAG   PSR MAU HKB BPI MAS    Rank, Team   KRA WOB RUD MAO RTB   HAT SEL KEE FMG MEA   BSS AND MAA KEL SAU    Rank, Team   COL MCK WEL TRX ISR   PGH WOL SOL STH ABC   JNK BOB REW RFL MAR    Rank, Team   RTH KKM VRN SCH KNT    TR BIL MJS SLN  MB   BAS DUN WAS WIL DOK    Rank, Team   RTR  SE DCI DES MGN    SP  DP PIG  RT CFN   REI OMY  AP GBE CSL    Rank, Team    CA CPA ONV PFZ RWP   DKC LAW MOR GRN CTW   DC2 DEF DEZ COV KLK    Rank, Team   BRN USA CGV KAM SFX   MRK MKV HAR NOL BDF   PBI LEG GUN CPR OAF    Rank, Team   NUT CMV MRS FEI  GM   SNS GRL GMP ACR    Mean

   1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1    1 Southeastern                     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1    1 SEC          1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1    1 SEC          1   1   1   1   2     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1    1 SEC          1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   1   1   1    1 SEC          1   1   1   2   1     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   5   1   1    1 SEC          1   1   2   1   1     1   1   1   1   1     1   1   3   1   1    1 SEC          1   5   1   1   1     1   1   5   1   1     1   6   1   3   2    1 SEC          1   2   1   1   1     2   1   2   1   33.47
   2   2   2   2   2     2   3   3   2   2    2 Pac 10                           2   4   2   4   3     2   2   3   2   2     3   3   4   3   5    2 P10          2   3   5   2   2     2   2   3   2   3     2   2   2   2   2    2 P10          2   2   3   5   1     2   2   2   3   2     3   3   2   2   3    2 P10          2   3   3   2   3     3   2   3   3   2     2   2   5   2   2    2 P10          3   2   2   4   3     2   3   2   4   2     4   4   1   3   3    2 P10          2   2   1   2   2     4   4   3   2   4     3   3   1   3   2    2 P10          3   1   4   4   3     3   2   1   3   3     2   1   4   1   1    2 P10          3   1   4   3   2     4   2   1   4   40.88
   3   3   3   3   4     3   2   2   3   5    3 Big East                         4   2   3   2   4     3   3   2   4   4     2   4   5   2   3    3 BE           3   2   3   3   3     3   3   6   3   2     3   3   3   3   4    3 BE           3   3   2   2   3     3   3   3   6   3     2   5   3   3   4    3 BE           3   2   2   5   2     2   3   2   2   3     5   5   3   3   5    3 BE           2   3   3   1   2     5   5   4   3   3     5   5   2   2   2    3 BE           3   3   3   3   3     2   5   5   3   2     5   2   2   2   6    3 BE           6   2   2   6   4     2   6   2   2   4     6   2   6   2   4    3 BE           6   3   3   5   3     1   5   3   5   44.08
   4   5   4   4   3     4   4   4   5   3    4 Big 12                           5   3   5   3   2     5   4   5   3   5     4   2   2   5   4    4 B12          5   6   2   5   5     6   5   2   5   4     4   5   4   4   5    4 B12          4   4   4   3   6     5   5   5   2   6     4   4   6   6   2    4 B12          5   4   4   4   5     4   5   4   5   6     3   3   4   5   3    4 B12          4   5   4   6   5     3   2   3   2   4     2   2   7   4   4    4 B12          5   5   6   4   5     5   3   2   5   3     2   5   4   4   3    4 B12          2   7   3   2   2     5   3   7   4   2     3   7   2   5   6    4 B12          2   5   2   6   5     7   3   5   2   47.24
   5   4   5   5   5     5   5   5   4   4    5 Atlantic Coast                   3   5   4   5   6     4   5   6   5   3     5   5   3   6   2    5 ACC          4   4   4   4   4     4   4   5   4   6     5   6   5   5   3    5 ACC          5   5   6   6   4     4   4   4   4   4     6   2   5   4   5    5 ACC          4   6   6   3   6     6   4   6   6   4     4   6   2   4   4    5 ACC          6   4   5   5   6     4   4   5   6   5     3   3   6   6   6    5 ACC          6   4   5   5   4     6   2   4   4   6     4   6   7   6   4    5 ACC          4   6   6   3   5     6   4   6   6   5     4   4   5   4   3    5 ACC          5   4   6   2   6     3   4   6   6   48.11
   6   6   6   6   6     6   6   6   6   6    6 Big 10                           6   6   6   6   5     6   6   4   6   6     6   6   6   4   6    6 B10          6   5   6   6   6     5   6   4   6   5     6   4   6   6   6    6 B10          6   6   5   4   5     6   6   6   5   5     5   6   4   5   6    6 B10          6   5   5   6   4     5   6   5   4   5     6   4   6   6   6    6 B10          5   6   6   3   4     6   6   6   5   6     6   6   3   5   5    6 B10          4   6   4   6   6     3   6   6   6   5     6   4   5   5   5    6 B10          5   3   5   5   6     4   5   3   5   6     5   5   3   6   5    6 B10          4   6   5   4   4     5   6   4   3   51.66
   

EDIT: That format is horrible because it is a huge amount of data -- better to check the above link and scroll to the bottom to see the rankings and indexes.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

BishopMVP, we will bump this in the offseason and show all the major programs offering him jobs. I say he's not major program caliber, you say he is. Lets see what the major programs have to say this offseason. That'll determine who is right.

Except I never said anything of the sort. He's an elite offensive mind who hasn't coached defense particularly well, is an extremely odd man (not just arrogant and egotistical, which is normal for a football coach, but a weird dude) who is currently (or soon to be) engaging in multiple lawsuits against his (former) school and AD. Particularly since he was let go after most of the major coaching searches were finished I don't think he'll be getting any offers from major schools this offseason. But I don't presume to predict what AD's will do since based on body of work alone he is more accomplished than Les Miles when he was offered the LSU position after going 28-21 (16-16 in the Big XII) and particularly Gene Chizik when he was offered the Auburn job after going 5-19 (2-14 in Big XII).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Except I never said anything of the sort. He's an elite offensive mind who hasn't coached defense particularly well, is an extremely odd man (not just arrogant and egotistical, which is normal for a football coach, but a weird dude) who is currently (or soon to be) engaging in multiple lawsuits against his (former) school and AD. Particularly since he was let go after most of the major coaching searches were finished I don't think he'll be getting any offers from major schools this offseason. But I don't presume to predict what AD's will do since based on body of work alone he is more accomplished than Les Miles when he was offered the LSU position after going 28-21 (16-16 in the Big XII) and particularly Gene Chizik when he was offered the Auburn job after going 5-19 (2-14 in Big XII).

but he's more toxic from a PR-standpoint. If you're a recruit and you're looking at what went on at Texas Tech is that really a guy you want to go play for, or your parents want you going to play for? That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

[Swaggs]

Leach is going to need to resolve this lawsuit before any BCS program will touch him as a HC. He absolutely needs to restore his "good name" before being able to recruit effectively. The more I hear, the more I think that, while he didn't handle things very well, he didn't get a fair shake on this.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

but he's more toxic from a PR-standpoint. If you're a recruit and you're looking at what went on at Texas Tech is that really a guy you want to go play for, or your parents want you going to play for? That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

If a recruit wouldn't want to play for me because of this, I wouldn't want him on my football team.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by sooner333

If a recruit wouldn't want to play for me because of this, I wouldn't want him on my football team.

It's easy to say that, but there are a finite amount of resources available in recruiting (time, money, phone calls, etc.). Even if only 20% (I'm guessing the number would be quite a bit higher, especially after other teams begin bringing it up to parents), are influenced by it, it is still pretty crippling to spend those resources, only to find out that nothing you say or do will help get a foot into the door with some recruits. It's also easy to say that if you are recruiting to Florida, Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, etc., but not so much when you are in the next tier or two down from them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

Depending upon how this ultimately plays out, there may not be an ESPN connection to the James family when all is said & done.

If it ends up the way it's been going, I can't see how James could keep his job if he's thoroughly discredited as anything more than a parent trying to use his influence to attack a coach who was fed up with his whiny lazy kid.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Depending upon how this ultimately plays out, there may not be an ESPN connection to the James family when all is said & done.

If it ends up the way it's been going, I can't see how James could keep his job if he's thoroughly discredited as anything more than a parent trying to use his influence to attack a coach who was fed up with his whiny lazy kid.

did i miss some news where it came out that the kid was whiny and lazy and not legit?

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

did i miss some news where it came out that the kid was whiny and lazy and not legit?

Well, it's obviously an opinion, and Leach has said it. I believe Graham Harrell said it as well. As did the current Inside WR Coach for Tech (I guess instead of a TE coach, they just have an Inside and Outside WR coach).

Also, as an aside, Dennis Dodd wrote an article in his blog bashing ESPN's coverage of this because of the James connection. He also said that there's a rumor that James was considering running for Senate. I don't see this helping at all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

did i miss some news where it came out that the kid was whiny and lazy and not legit?

Where you been?

In a letter last week to Texas Tech administrators Riley called James "unusually lazy and entitled." ... Riley wrote that James is the type of person who makes "excuses or blames people for things that go wrong in his life."

Texas Tech coach Lincoln Riley, once critical of Adam James, now offers support - ESPN

You could have easily missed it though, since it was buried under a story headlined something to the effect that "TT assistant coach supports James".

Yeah, he "supports" him since he's technically still a part of the team at the moment. But he also spelled out pretty clearly -- and pretty obviously at the risk of his own job with a university who wanted a nice, neat hatchet job on his old boss -- that the kid is a spoiled candy ass.

[DaddyTorgo]

hmmm i see. well i suppose that changes my read of leach's future job prospects to some degree - once he gets the situation all resolved and stuff

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Well, it's obviously an opinion, and Leach has said it. I believe Graham Harrell said it as well. As did the current Inside WR Coach for Tech (I guess instead of a TE coach, they just have an Inside and Outside WR coach).

Also, as an aside, Dennis Dodd wrote an article in his blog bashing ESPN's coverage of this because of the James connection. He also said that there's a rumor that James was considering running for Senate. I don't see this helping at all.

I searched and could not find it. Link?

[SirFozzie]

Another side to the Leach/Texas Tech story - CBSSports.com

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

but he's more toxic from a PR-standpoint. If you're a recruit and you're looking at what went on at Texas Tech is that really a guy you want to go play for, or your parents want you going to play for? That stigma will stick - I think especially because of the ESPN connection of the James family.

I'm sure other coaches will whisper it and try to recruit against him, but considering the general practices of guys like Mangino, Meyer, Kelly, Weis, Saban, Rodriguez to name 6 I've heard worse about, I don't think it will fly. As long as ESPN isn't successful in their quest to bury what actually happened* these actions are par for the course at worst at pretty much any major college football program. How many nice guys are coaching major college programs at this time? Maybe Mack Brown, Pete Carroll, idk is Joe Paterno considered a nice guy? And Texas Tech's administration really doesn't have a leg to stand on considering they hired Bobby Knight to coach basketball and he's been documented physically assaulting his own players.

I will agree he's more toxic from an AD standpoint considering he's suing his school, and I don't see why they would hire him if there's another comparable candidate.

* My take - James says he has a concussion, shows up at practice refusing to run drills and wearing sunglasses. Leach tells him to take his sunglasses off, put his helmet on and stop causing a distraction to the other players. James refuses, Leach says if you need to avoid sunlight, go stay indoors in that equipment room for the length of practice. I coach HS lacrosse, not D1 college football, and we're much more lenient and less disciplinarian than most schools we compete with, but if a kid was using injury as an excuse to get out of parts of practice that wouldn't aggravate the injury we'd send him back inside to get "medical attention" too.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I will agree he's more toxic from an AD standpoint considering he's suing his school, and I don't see why they would hire him if there's another comparable candidate.

Yeah, but if the general consensus is that he was fired without cause, but it was defined as "with cause" for the sole purpose of not paying him, I don't think it will hurt him that much. Sure, he's suing the school, but he's also owed a lot of money. If the lawsuit is seemingly with merit, then I'm sure that there would be schools that would hire him again. I'm sure you can find coaches who have been terminated "for cause," fought the decision, and landed on their feet elsewhere.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.

This is funny because Pitt and WVU both had losses to middle or lower tier ACC teams.

I'll admit that the good gentleman from Clemson's statement may have been over the top, but I also feel pretty confident that the top four in the ACC (GT, VPI, Miami and Clemson) would have competed pretty favorably with the top 3 or 4 in the Big East.

Also, the Big East is always going to have an inherent advantage in conference computer rankings because of the 8 team size. With the extra non-conference games (most spent on cream puffs) the whole conference gets a ratings boost.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Another side to the Leach/Texas Tech story - CBSSports.com

Thanks!

[Logan]

Thought it was interesting how just maybe 15 minutes ago, while watching the Liberty bowl, the ESPN crawl said that according to an affidavit, the trainer Pincock "says Leach instructed him to 'lock' WR Adam Jones in a dark place."

Then only a few minutes later, in the halftime coverage, Rece Davis reads over a screen with the affidavit in writing, "Leach further said something to the effect that he wanted me to tell James that I was to 'lock' (him in a dark place)."

Does anyone see two of the problems with how ESPN is reporting this, just in this instance alone?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Logan

Thought it was interesting how just maybe 15 minutes ago, while watching the Liberty bowl, the ESPN crawl said that according to an affidavit, the trainer Pincock "says Leach instructed him to 'lock' WR Adam Jones in a dark place."

Then only a few minutes later, in the halftime coverage, Rece Davis reads over a screen with the affidavit in writing, "Leach further said something to the effect that he wanted me to tell James that I was to 'lock' (him in a dark place)."

Does anyone see two of the problems with how ESPN is reporting this, just in this instance alone?

Yeah, it's called biased and shoddy reporting. Amazing how just leaving out a couple of words here and there completely changes the context of the story. I don't even listen to or read their coverage anymore. CBSsports.com seems a bit more reliable at this point.

[RainMaker]

My problem with CBS Sports is that they seem to have a few columnists and they tell them all to take different points of view for the sake of argument. It's like that on every major off-field issue on the site.

[TexasT]

Was at the game tonight and when the players walked off the field at half time, the stands erupted in some of the loudest boos I've ever heard when Adam James walked by. I have no sympathy for the kid because I'm of the opinion he's a spoiled brat who's constantly whined to Daddy Craig about not playing enough.
There were lots of t-shirts with Team Leach on the front and a picture of a closed door on the back which said " Real Men Aren't Afraid of the Dark". Hilarious! Numerous banners and posters about Adam, most of which aren't g-rated.
Btw, great game!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by TexasT

Was at the game tonight and when the players walked off the field at half time, the stands erupted in some of the loudest boos I've ever heard when Adam James walked by. I have no sympathy for the kid because I'm of the opinion he's a spoiled brat who's constantly whined to Daddy Craig about not playing enough.
There were lots of t-shirts with Team Leach on the front and a picture of a closed door on the back which said " Real Men Aren't Afraid of the Dark". Hilarious! Numerous banners and posters about Adam, most of which aren't g-rated.
Btw, great game!

Sounds like the fans are as classy as the former head coach.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Yeah, but if the general consensus is that he was fired without cause, but it was defined as "with cause" for the sole purpose of not paying him, I don't think it will hurt him that much. Sure, he's suing the school, but he's also owed a lot of money. If the lawsuit is seemingly with merit, then I'm sure that there would be schools that would hire him again. I'm sure you can find coaches who have been terminated "for cause," fought the decision, and landed on their feet elsewhere.

At a certain point it's not about whether the lawsuit has merit but merely about the fact he's willing to engage in a lawsuit against his school, deserved or not.

Again, I don't presume to know what AD's think since multiple coaches with A)terrible records B) no track record and/or C) a list of NCAA violations have been hired, but quite simply if there you were an AD and there was a coach who was known for consistently antagonizing his AD why would you hire him?

As to your last point, I'm sure I'm ignorant/blanking, but I can't think of previous football coaches that sued their school over a non-technical/buyout point. The coaches I can remember that are "caught"/"punished" have ended up going from BCS contenders to directional schools (usually in Florida).

[Honolulu Blue]

Originally Posted by TexasT

Btw, great game!

As a fan of the other half of the show, we acknowledge your approval.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Sounds like the fans are as classy as the former head coach.

Sounds to me like the kid is reaping what he sowed...........

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

At a certain point it's not about whether the lawsuit has merit but merely about the fact he's willing to engage in a lawsuit against his school, deserved or not.

Again, I don't presume to know what AD's think since multiple coaches with A)terrible records B) no track record and/or C) a list of NCAA violations have been hired, but quite simply if there you were an AD and there was a coach who was known for consistently antagonizing his AD why would you hire him?

As to your last point, I'm sure I'm ignorant/blanking, but I can't think of previous football coaches that sued their school over a non-technical/buyout point. The coaches I can remember that are "caught"/"punished" have ended up going from BCS contenders to directional schools (usually in Florida).

So a coach isn't allowed to enforce his contract but the school can?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Sounds to me like the kid is reaping what he sowed...........

Complaining that he thought being locked in a shed was inappropriate? The kid didn't fire him, the AD did.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chubby

So a coach isn't allowed to enforce his contract but the school can?

He is, but it makes you less desireable to other schools. Just like any boss would be skeptical about hiring an employee who was engaged in a lawsuit against his previous employer.

[TexasT]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Complaining that he thought being locked in a shed was inappropriate? The kid didn't fire him, the AD did.

He wasn't "locked" in there, he was put in there with staff members because it was cooler and he needed to be out of bright light, per doctor's advice. If he had been "locked" in a shed others would have brought this to light long before. He's just a spoiled kid looking for attention because Daddy thought he wasn't being played enough.

[Dr. Sak]

I love how Craig James, who was one of the reasons that SMU got the death penalty, is all up in a coaches ass about his kid not being played. My dislike for him allows me to be anything but fair to either party in this situation.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I would love to see you make that argument with a straight face.

I think you can reasonably say that the top two teams in the ACC (GT and VPI) would have competed for the Big East title this season, but you can turn around and say that Cincy probably could/would have won the ACC this season, as well. Cincy won the close ones this season, while GT and VPI did not.

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.

Only the hugest of ACC homers would claim that the top half of the ACC would finish ahead of a 12-win Cincy this season. The Big East and ACC are relatively even conferences at this point and, as much at folks want to argue it, after the SEC, the other five BCS conferences are all pretty similar in strength. The Massey Ratings, which compiles different computer rankings bare this out:

Ok, I will make the argument, but pardon me if I am wearing a bit of a smirk instead of a straight face.

Cincy was 12-0, and they did every thing they could to prove themselves, for that they deserve credit. However their lone impressive win was against Oregon St, that win aside they beat 3 other over inflated Big East team and a few lesser oponents (dont give me Fresno state is l33t crap).

There only worthwhile competition was Florida who destroyed them, but I will give them a total pass with the Tebow last game, Myer, Kelly gone distractions.

For Cincy it comes down to a matter of opinion. And I think GT, VT, Clemson, Miami all handle them easily by 10+.

WVU and Pitt each lost to lower half ACC teams this year.

Now to your specific points.
GT was 5-0 in games decided by 5 points or less and won them all.
VT did lose 2 of 3 decided by 5 points or less
And Cincy was 3-0.

Thats a pretty big leap to say Cincy won the close ones while GT and VT did not. Honestly neither Cincy nor VT really had many close ones, while GT was the cardiac kids.

Beyond that, I think Miami hangs in a tier with Pitt and WVU. Clemson, BC, UNC, and Florida State are probably a hair behind that group with Rutgers, UConn, and USF. Those ten teams are all above average, but aren't really striking fear into the hearts of any elite teams this season.

Obviously I am going to defend Clemson here, and I think that was your point just to raise my ire a bit.

But Miami hangs with Pitt and WVU, while Clemson et.al are behind.
Clemson beat Miami head to head, Destroyed NCSU that was Pitt's only loss for much of thee season (and their only ACC opponent until the bowl game) and handled an FSU team easily that carried their coach off the field after whipping WVU.

But you relegate Clemson to the likes BC (who we beat had to head and held to less than 100 yards of total Offense), FSU (beat head to head), UNC (who shock is not any good) Rutgers, Uconn, USF...nice

Clemson was probably the 3rd best ACC team this year, they lost twice to GT, once to TCU, and had 2 embarrassing indefensible losses. That is about as good as can be expected with a freshman QB and a first year coaching staff.

But yes, I think Clemson, VT and GT and probably Miami would roll Cincy who is "clearly" the class of the Big East.
I think FSU, UNC, and even Wake Forest would give Cincy a run for their money and I would rate any of those games as a toss up.

So thats 6 teams, or half of the ACC.


Oh and FWIW, I am not all googly eyeed with the SEC beyond 1&2 either.

[DeToxRox]

Mike Leach needs to go to Washington State. It's close to the Pacific Ocean and God knows I'd want him as close as possible to any Somalian Pirates who might float over onto American soil.

Plus, Wazzou is a pit and Leach would have them respectable, no doubt about it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

As to your last point, I'm sure I'm ignorant/blanking, but I can't think of previous football coaches that sued their school over a non-technical/buyout point. The coaches I can remember that are "caught"/"punished" have ended up going from BCS contenders to directional schools (usually in Florida).

Neuheisel.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Complaining that he thought being locked in a shed was inappropriate? The kid didn't fire him, the AD did.

Are you related to Craig James?

[Blackadar]

Reading this thread is just...wow. It's funny and sad at the same time.

According to some people, there must be conspiracy to get Leach fired between Adam James, Craig James, ESPN, the AD and the chancellor, while current players must be getting paid off to bad mouth Leach to the press (Swindall, Charbonnet, Carter).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Reading this thread is just...wow. It's funny and sad at the same time.

According to some people, there must be conspiracy to get Leach fired between Adam James

Described as lazy by teammates, has quit on a team before, and has already (at best) exaggerated the story when he said he was held in an electrical closet with guards at the door.

Craig James

Listens to his son, tries to support him. Possibly tried using his job to get his kid more PT.

ESPN

I've already shown how they are inaccurately reporting this.

the AD and the chancellor

Financial reasons for how they've acted.

while current players must be getting paid off to bad mouth Leach to the press (Swindall, Charbonnet, Carter).

And there are players supporting him, past and present. Not everyone likes their coach, whether they are a boy scout or not.

But thanks for playing.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I love how Craig James, who was one of the reasons that SMU got the death penalty...

First, I think Craig James is probably guilty of the bad-mouthing of him as an intrusive parent meddling with the Tech coaching staff to lobby for his son, and has used his position with ESPN to help slant the story.

That said, it really bugs me when I see people piling on and accusing James of being part of the reason SMU got the death penalty. Proof please? To my knowledge, he's never been named as a player that got paid off. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share and I'll back off.

If not, can we kindly refrain from lying about James? What he's done in the case of his son and Tech is plenty to vilify him - there's no need to make up stuff to further smear him.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Logan

And there are players supporting him, past and present. Not everyone likes their coach, whether they are a boy scout or not.

Have you read what current players have said? That he changed this year? Makes sense that former players would support Leach - even the current players are basically saying it was this season that things started to go South between Leach and the players.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do think it's interesting and informative to see how united the current players seem to be in backing James and taking shots at Leach.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Mike Leach needs to go to Washington State. It's close to the Pacific Ocean and God knows I'd want him as close as possible to any Somalian Pirates who might float over onto American soil.

Plus, Wazzou is a pit and Leach would have them respectable, no doubt about it.

As a Washington fan, I hate this idea. Because you're right - he'd turn that program around.

Though it should be noted that Leach would be a 6+ hour drive from the Pacific Ocean if he were in Pullman...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Have you read what current players have said? That he changed this year? Makes sense that former players would support Leach - even the current players are basically saying it was this season that things started to go South between Leach and the players.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do think it's interesting and informative to see how united the current players seem to be in backing James and taking shots at Leach.

Actually, I haven't and was just looking for them. I didn't find any quick links in the thread here or in a couple of the regular sports sites. Do you have any links?

I don't have a dog in it, either. I will just throw out, though, that players--non-seniors anyway--have every reason to be supportive of the current administration/university stance, since their education and football futures are at risk. We have already seen, too, how the current interim coach is throwing Leach under the bus.

I would guess, as with most any situation involving a large group of disparate, thinking individuals, there is a divide of opinion on the team.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

... players--non-seniors anyway--have every reason to be supportive of the current administration/university stance, since their education and football futures are at risk.

FTR, those quoted were two juniors and a senior (who acknowledged issues between him & Leach in the past).

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

If not, can we kindly refrain from lying about James? What he's done in the case of his son and Tech is plenty to vilify him - there's no need to make up stuff to further smear him.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...it's a duck to me. I'll smear him all I want. He thought it was hilarious to pile on Joe Paterno when he had a few bad years calling him and old fart and other senile names on National TV without an apology. So excuse me if I want to pile on someone who was apart of the ONLY College Football team in history to get the death penalty and the years he was a 'star' with them was right in the heart where there was a booster slush fund that paid the players.

[dawgfan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/news/story?id=4792320

Granted, this is reported from ESPN, so there's every reason to be suspicious of bias, especially when they mention a number of players unwilling to go on the record with their criticisms of Leach.

As well, the Senior quoted also admits he has not seen eye to eye with Leach in the past.

All that said, I think there's enough evidence to think that there are no innocent parties in all of this - Tech administration and boosters were clearly fed up with Leach and looking for a way out; Leach clearly had had enough of Tech, and perhaps had let that affect his relationship with his players; James and his family clearly seem to have blown out of proportion the "isolation" incidents; ESPN clearly has allowed their relationship with Craig James to color their reporting of the story.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...it's a duck to me. I'll smear him all I want. He thought it was hilarious to pile on Joe Paterno when he had a few bad years calling him and old fart and other senile names on National TV without an apology. So excuse me if I want to pile on someone who was apart of the ONLY College Football team in history to get the death penalty and the years he was a 'star' with them was right in the heart where there was a booster slush fund that paid the players.

I guess if you don't care about your own credibility you can smear James all you want. If you can't produce some evidence to back up your contention that James was one of the players getting paid at SMU, then you'll forgive me if I take your opinions with a huge grain of salt, as you clearly don't care about being accurate and accountable.

Like I said, there are plenty of legitimate, verifiable reasons to criticize James. There's no need to add on unsubstantiated conjecture.

[Edward64]

I wanted to know also so I did a quick search. I was not able to find a complete list of players that supposedly received payments/cars etc. Not sure I understand why this is not public info?

Craig James should get the benefit of doubt but it would not surprise me if James was one of those that did get extra benefits in the early 80s.

[CU Tiger]

I thought what made the SMU case so bad, was that it was generally accepted the every player, even non-scholarship players, were receiving illegal benefits.

I know for a fact that when we had to watch those cheeky NCAA after school specials on compliance, SMU was cited by name and video shown of players talking about how it ruined their lives and made seals die in the artic. The point the video made was even if every team mate is doing it you can still be punished.

Given his stature with the team and his socio economic status I always ASSUMED he was right in the middle of it

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by TexasT

He wasn't "locked" in there, he was put in there with staff members because it was cooler and he needed to be out of bright light, per doctor's advice. If he had been "locked" in a shed others would have brought this to light long before. He's just a spoiled kid looking for attention because Daddy thought he wasn't being played enough.

Your trainer and team doctor disputed that in sworn affadavits.