The NBA 2010 offseason/draft thread

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

Yah, this is pretty key. Saying Lebron isn't like Jordan isn't the worst thing in the world. Jordan has an extremely unhealthy competitive streak, it just happened to be something that we loved about him when it came to basketball.

I don't think it's just Jordan. I think we're realizing he's also not like Bird, Magic, Isiah, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem, and probably Kobe. The article is basically saying that he's an amazing talent, fun to watch, but not really concerned about winning. The Dr. J comparison is perfect.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

sorry, every time i see the name bill simmons i go blind with rage. let me reread the article.

...

okay so,

he's a mix of dr.j, bo jackson and magic except not so much magic because he hasn't won shit.

he needs a group of competent players around him and a coach with leadership skills.

if he cared about winning he'd go to chicago and if he goes anywhere else he's a selfish cunt.

well, how embarrassing for me. here i thought he was just another self important asshole with an opinion but this is truly some insightful journalism.

If ALL he cared about was winning, he'd go to Chicago. If he goes elsewhere, it's because he's looking at other things. Of course, I don't know of very many people who disagree with that advice. If he leaves the Cavs and goes to the Knicks, would it be for anything other than fame? Seriously, the Knicks are going to be better than the Bulls short term? If he stays with Cleveland, he's loyal.

Simmons isn't shredding Lebron like you seem to think he is. He's simply saying he's not Michael Jordan, Larry Bird or Magic, because those players put winning above anything else in life. That's what drove them. Sometimes to an unhealthy extent. But it doesn't drive Bron the same way. I think we can say this with 100% assurance now. You would not have saw Jordan give up in the final 2 minutes of any game, much less of a close out game. We saw Bron do it. That says something.

You have your blinders on. Others have their hatred out. (like those saying Bron will never win a title or that he sucks horribly or that they wouldn't want him on their team) Both sides are just as insane to me.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

he's a 2 time mvp, and he's 25.

let's just give him a couple more years. that's all i'm sayin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Considering what he had around him in Cleveland, does it really matter how focused he was on winning? Unless he's going to literally beat teams 4/7 in multiple series by himself and override all the coaching decisions, it's not going to happen no matter how much he "wants" it.

If he's in a position where there's a realistic chance of actually winning a title, then perhaps we see a different emphasis on winning. For that to have been his single-word-focus in Cleveland would have been a ticket to misery.

[RainMaker]

What teams out there that have a superstar have that much more talent surrounding them than Lebron? I'll give you L.A., but outside of that, there aren't any teams that feature two top-10 talents in the league.

Everyone keeps saying he has no one around him, but fail to realize that no one really does. There is a lot more parity in the league and few teams that have multiple All-Stars. And last I looked, Jamison has been a solid 20-10 guy in this league for a decade. Mo Williams has been one of the best outside shooters in the league. Shaq has lost a lot, but still is capable of drawing defenders and fouls. They have a high energy guy in Verajao and a bench that is comparable to most other NBA teams.

This isn't a team that struggled all year. They've had the best record in the East for the last two seasons. A coach who was voted Coach of the Year in 2009. I'd give him some slack if it was a Wade situation where he's struggling to get a 5 seed. But this team has been top dog in the conference for the last 2 years and flamed out in the playoffs. And they didn't lose a close series, they got the shit kicked out of them, and Lebron played nothing like an MVP in those losses.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Considering what he had around him in Cleveland, does it really matter how focused he was on winning? Unless he's going to literally beat teams 4/7 in multiple series by himself and override all the coaching decisions, it's not going to happen no matter how much he "wants" it.

If he's in a position where there's a realistic chance of actually winning a title, then perhaps we see a different emphasis on winning. For that to have been his single-word-focus in Cleveland would have been a ticket to misery.

This.

LeBron has an awful supporting cast, but everyone wants him to make those scrubs into the Jordan Five and it's just not gonna happen.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What teams out there that have a superstar have that much more talent surrounding them than Lebron? I'll give you L.A., but outside of that, there aren't any teams that feature two top-10 talents in the league.

Everyone keeps saying he has no one around him, but fail to realize that no one really does. There is a lot more parity in the league and few teams that have multiple All-Stars. And last I looked, Jamison has been a solid 20-10 guy in this league for a decade. Mo Williams has been one of the best outside shooters in the league. Shaq has lost a lot, but still is capable of drawing defenders and fouls. They have a high energy guy in Verajao and a bench that is comparable to most other NBA teams.

This isn't a team that struggled all year. They've had the best record in the East for the last two seasons. A coach who was voted Coach of the Year in 2009. I'd give him some slack if it was a Wade situation where he's struggling to get a 5 seed. But this team has been top dog in the conference for the last 2 years and flamed out in the playoffs. And they didn't lose a close series, they got the shit kicked out of them, and Lebron played nothing like an MVP in those losses.

Boston, Orlando, and Los Angeles all have more talent around their star player than Cleveland does.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Boston, Orlando, and Los Angeles all have more talent around their star player than Cleveland does.

Boston does, but they sure didn't look like it a few weeks ago. That great team finished 11-11 the final 21 games.

The Lakers do, but that's essentially because of one guy. You take away Pau, and go down the rest of the list and Cleveland matches up with them.

Orlando? That's comical to me, because I've been saying it all year, but the people who know basketball better than me haven't been saying it. whomario gave a response above about how Cleveland was built to beat the Magic and went on a player by player analysis of why that would happen.

It's easy to say he doesn't have the best supporting cast right now, but there were only a handful of people in the league who thought that before these playoffs started. I didn't see a single person from a major outlet pick the Celtics to beat the Cavs. In fact, of the 15 or so I've looked up so far, only 3 had it going 7 games.

Me? I don't think Lebron had the best supporting cast at all. I do think he had a better one than some people are saying now, however.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by TroyF

whomario gave a response above about how Cleveland was built to beat the Magic and went on a player by player analysis of why that would happen.

so ? You do realize that matchups matter and some teams match up better with some than others ?

I never claimed Cleveland is more talented than Orlando 2-12 (or that Boston is for that matter), just that they would have matched up much very well against the Magic, ultimately they made a decicion to go that route and got exposed against a team that plays totally different type of basketball than what they built their roster for.

I´m not saying Garnett/Perkins are better than Howard/Lewis, just that the latter was why the Cavs added Shaq and Jamison. Shaq for defensive purposes and getting Howard in foul trouble and Jamison to trade buckets with Lewis without having to guard a bigger player. With the Celtics you had Shaq useless on defense and Jamison overmatched on both ends against a longer player.
And Parker was signed to give them a legit-sized 2 guard to put a body on Carter on isolations, yet he had to first chase Allen off screens and then guard a Point Guard.

The Cavs took a gamble and lost. They did have a very talented roster, just not a very versatile one. Kind of like the Suns who propably could have won a couple titles if the Mavs or Lakers or whoever would have beaten the Spurs before they got to meet them.

Versatility pays off in the playoffs, take those old spurs teams who could slow it down or speed it up as need be. The Cavs just didn´t have a ton of 2-way players, which doesn´t hurt in the regular season as much as in the playoffs.

[Radii]

Has this been posted yet?


We Are LeBron Video

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by whomario

so ? You do realize that matchups matter and some teams match up better with some than others ?

I never claimed Cleveland is more talented than Orlando 2-12 (or that Boston is for that matter), just that they would have matched up much very well against the Magic, ultimately they made a decicion to go that route and got exposed against a team that plays totally different type of basketball than what they built their roster for.

I´m not saying Garnett/Perkins are better than Howard/Lewis, just that the latter was why the Cavs added Shaq and Jamison. Shaq for defensive purposes and getting Howard in foul trouble and Jamison to trade buckets with Lewis without having to guard a bigger player. With the Celtics you had Shaq useless on defense and Jamison overmatched on both ends against a longer player.
And Parker was signed to give them a legit-sized 2 guard to put a body on Carter on isolations, yet he had to first chase Allen off screens and then guard a Point Guard.

The Cavs took a gamble and lost. They did have a very talented roster, just not a very versatile one. Kind of like the Suns who propably could have won a couple titles if the Mavs or Lakers or whoever would have beaten the Spurs before they got to meet them.

Versatility pays off in the playoffs, take those old spurs teams who could slow it down or speed it up as need be. The Cavs just didn´t have a ton of 2-way players, which doesn´t hurt in the regular season as much as in the playoffs.

You are missing my point. You felt the Cavs were built just fine to beat Orlando. (I disagree with that, though I do concede some of your points, I just think Orlando was the better team and it would have shown through)

You also felt Cleveland would be just fine against the Celtics two weeks ago. Most everyone in the world did. Cleveland's supporting cast wasn't considered an issue, it was considered a strength before these playoffs started.

The only issue I have with this is that the supporting cast went from being a strong point for most to people now saying that Bron's supporting cast was so bad we should have never expected a final appearance. I'm in the happy medium here. I think the cast had issues and big issues at that. I also think that horrible supporting Cavs cast could probably make the playoffs in the eastern conference next year if Lebron doesn't come back. (just like Orlando and Boston would make the playoffs without Dwight or KG)

Just to be clear here. . . My issues with Lebron have zero to do with him not winning this series. They really don't have anything to do with him playing poorly either. My issues are with his effort in game 5 (a game he mailed in), his comments after game 5 (where instead of being pissed off, he acted as though it wasn't a big deal and that everything was ok), him and his teammates quitting in the final two minutes of game 6, and his inexplicable desire to pass the ball to scrubs off screen and rolls before he even read the defense.

Just imagine if we swapped out the leadership skills of KG and Shaq in the last series. You think maybe pissed off KG gets in Bron's grill and the second half of game five is different? I most certainly do.

I understand that goes to the quality of your teammates. But I also know that MJ, Bird or Magic wouldn't have had to have that other player to motivate them. That makes Bron a spectacular, once in a generation player. And it makes him a notch below those other three in my book.

[NewIdentity]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If ALL he cared about was winning, he'd go to Chicago. If he goes elsewhere, it's because he's looking at other things. .

Really? I think he would look better in Celtic green myself.

Pierce out, Lebron in? I don't think Pierce could coexist with Lebron.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

Pierce out, Lebron in? I don't think Pierce could coexist with Lebron.

neither could Rondo. That´s the problem with guys like Lebron or Wade or even Kobe to a degree (although he really worked on that), guys like McGrady ealier in his career as well, they get way less effective and valuable if they don´t have the ball all the time.
That´s why you almost never see them play with a true PG but with shooters that can defend PGs at the point.
So once they are having an off game you generally don´t have many options to go to that can create their own shot or create for others.

That´s why the Wingscorer/great Center is so much more prepared nowadays, while sometimes balance is tricky you at least have a balance between inside and outside play where you can say that wingplayer X gets all the perimeter touches and Postplayer Y the touches inside.
Heck, even the Spurs tried to balance Parkers and Ginobili´s time on the court (Ginobili 6th man) and only play them together for 15-20 minutes max.
Ideally of course you have a guy like Gasol who plays brilliant even without many plays run for him.

[Chubby]

Hmm everything is somebody else's fault but not Lebron's? Oh it's his teammates fault, his coaches fault, his GM's fault...

Did we say this about Magic/Bird/Jordan? Did they try to duck responsibility? Nope. Heck even look at Ewing who never won a title or Barkley it was never everyone else's fault but theirs when they lost, they simply lost to better teams.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by whomario

neither could Rondo. That´s the problem with guys like Lebron or Wade or even Kobe to a degree (although he really worked on that), guys like McGrady ealier in his career as well, they get way less effective and valuable if they don´t have the ball all the time.
That´s why you almost never see them play with a true PG but with shooters that can defend PGs at the point.
So once they are having an off game you generally don´t have many options to go to that can create their own shot or create for others.

That´s why the Wingscorer/great Center is so much more prepared nowadays, while sometimes balance is tricky you at least have a balance between inside and outside play where you can say that wingplayer X gets all the perimeter touches and Postplayer Y the touches inside.
Heck, even the Spurs tried to balance Parkers and Ginobili´s time on the court (Ginobili 6th man) and only play them together for 15-20 minutes max.
Ideally of course you have a guy like Gasol who plays brilliant even without many plays run for him.

I think it comes down to Lebron having to change to fit his surroundings whomario. Honestly? I think LAST years Cavs team was set up about as well as they could be to utilize Bron's talents.

1) a center who doesn't need the ball in the post and can hit 20 foot jumpers. (Big Z)
2) A PG who hits the three point shot at a high percentage and doesn't need the ball all of the time. (Moe Williams)
3) A PF who concentrates on defense, rebounding, and picking up scraps on the offensive end. (Varejao)
4) A fourth player who is kind of a jack of all trades guy, plays some D, hits some threes, does a little of everything. (West)

Last year the Cavs were a better team. Without Shaq this year, they were a better team. They panic over Dwight Howard and made themselves a worse team.

Keep the same team as last year, add two bench scorers instead of a 25 million dollar paper weight who slows your team down and I think they'd have had a real shot.

If he goes to the Bulls, he's going to have to adjust a little. Rose needs the ball and needs some shots like he does. They don't have a lot of long range threats yet so the defense will collapse on them.

He goes to NY, he'll have Gallinari to kick it out to. Then it comes down to who else the Knicks get for help. Let's assume it could be Bosh. Bosh, Gallinari, Bron is a good start, but that isn't winning titles.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

Really? I think he would look better in Celtic green myself.

Pierce out, Lebron in? I don't think Pierce could coexist with Lebron.

Obviously, I know you are joking, but let's put a dream scenario together here. Let's swap Vince Carter for Lebron James and look at the Magic.

How many titles in a row do they get? 3? 4? 5?

[DaddyTorgo]

i didn't see this, but apparently my father said after the loss in game 6 that lebron went over to the celts and was whispering and talking to all of them??

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

They often do that after games/series.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i didn't see this, but apparently my father said after the loss in game 6 that lebron went over to the celts and was whispering and talking to all of them??

Also known as shaking hands and congratulating them on their series win.

[DaddyTorgo]

true. i dunno...i was up in Montreal, but he was i guess trying to insinuate that there was something more to it than that...but he was prolly just screwing around.

frankly i'm not so sure i'd want lebron

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

true. i dunno...i was up in Montreal, but he was i guess trying to insinuate that there was something more to it than that...but he was prolly just screwing around.

frankly i'm not so sure i'd want lebron

Well he tried the walk off the court without saying anything to anybody last year and got ripped for not being sportsmanlike. So this year he went the other way.

KG did give him some advice after the game. Basically he said don't waste your youth being loyal to a bad team. Go where you need to go to win a title.

[Eaglesfan27]

I find it funny that so many fans say they wouldn't want the best player in the game who is just entering his prime.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I find it funny that so many fans say they wouldn't want the best player in the game who is just entering his prime.

I agree with you. I'd certainly love to have Lebron on the Nuggets.

That said, Lebron has made it REALLY tough to cheer for him with some of his actions over the last few years. He was a punk when he lost against Orlando, he's performing dance routines during games showing up the opposition and he claimed he's had 3 bad games in his Cleveland career. That's not exactly a warm and fuzzy superstar for some people to love and adore. (and no, he isn't a criminal, isn't a roid user, isn't nailing 20 year olds in public restrooms. . . I'm not saying any of that, I'm just saying I can see why some people dislike him and wouldn't want to cheer for him)

Again, I'll say I'd want him on the Nuggets, badly.

Oakley came out today and said it's the Heat or Bulls. (evidently he's a friend of Bron, which to me could be Bron just playing with the media more. I still think he ends up a Knick)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If he goes to the Bulls, he's going to have to adjust a little. Rose needs the ball and needs some shots like he does. They don't have a lot of long range threats yet so the defense will collapse on them.

I'd imagine they would have someone like Calipari as coach and run his dribble/drive offense. I honestly can't think of two players more built for that system and don't know how you could stop it. The same goes if he goes to Miami and plays with Wade.

[bulletsponge]

i thought calipari's system was to pay the best high schoolers the most $$ under the table. you cant outbribe in the NBA (well unless your the commish)

[flere-imsaho]

This thread needs to be a poll. My vote is New York. LeBron wants the biggest stage, and since he couldn't build it in Cleveland he'll just buy it in New York.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Bill Simmons

If LeBron saved professional basketball in New York and brought Knicks fans their first title since 1973? That's the best available accomplishment in team sports right now. Name me a better one. You can't.

England. World Cup Title.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

England. World Cup Title.

Yeah.....yeah.

[bhlloy]

So here's the scenario. LeBron tells you he won't be back in Cleveland but as a final thank you to the city he's willing to discuss a sign and trade, and he's even willing to consider any other team in the league so you can get the best deal possible.

Who (if anyone) has enough to get it done? If the Wizards offer you the first overall (giving you Wall to replace LeBron) plus another first and swap some expirings for some bad salary do you consider that? Or do you sit tight and lose him for nothing knowing that the negative PR if you trade him will probably result in riots across the city?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

So here's the scenario. LeBron tells you he won't be back in Cleveland but as a final thank you to the city he's willing to discuss a sign and trade, and he's even willing to consider any other team in the league so you can get the best deal possible.

Who (if anyone) has enough to get it done? If the Wizards offer you the first overall (giving you Wall to replace LeBron) plus another first and swap some expirings for some bad salary do you consider that? Or do you sit tight and lose him for nothing knowing that the negative PR if you trade him will probably result in riots across the city?

Well, there could be some interesting offers, but I think John Wall and some soon-to-expire contracts would certainly be better than nothing.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

So here's the scenario. LeBron tells you he won't be back in Cleveland but as a final thank you to the city he's willing to discuss a sign and trade, and he's even willing to consider any other team in the league so you can get the best deal possible.

Who (if anyone) has enough to get it done? If the Wizards offer you the first overall (giving you Wall to replace LeBron) plus another first and swap some expirings for some bad salary do you consider that? Or do you sit tight and lose him for nothing knowing that the negative PR if you trade him will probably result in riots across the city?

Rubio to the Cavs for Lebron.

In all seriousness in order to get the right value for LeBron it would take a Kevin Durant and 2 lottery picks. Lebron himself is probably worth 30-40 wins to a team a year and I cant think of fair compensation for that kind of a player.

If I knew he was leaving I would just shop him and get the best deal I was offered which is hard to figure out because a team isnt going to want to give up all the resources it would take to get him and give up all chances of winning a championship. A team desperate to win with some talent would be the Bulls so Ill say Derrick Rose, Lou Deng, and 2 first round picks.

[Scoobz0202]

Hey Cavs fans, wouldn't that be awesome if Lebron said he'd take 5 million a year and the rest could be used to build a supporting cast! I mean, he makes close to 200 mil a year in endorsements anyways!

That'd be great

[Big Fo]

Rashard Lewis would be a close match for the contract if not for the talent. LeBron could team up with Dwight Howard to try and get a ring while not paying state income taxes.

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Hey Cavs fans, wouldn't that be awesome if Lebron said he'd take 5 million a year and the rest could be used to build a supporting cast! I mean, he makes close to 200 mil a year in endorsements anyways!

That'd be great

+1

in all honesty out of all the super stars in the last ten years in the NBA, I'm surprised that this hasn't ever really happened, at least for one year or something. Why hasn't someone just really hungry for a title came out and said hey this year I'll sign for the Veteran Minimum so this team can get another superstar and we can win an NBA championship..

[Big Fo]

Guys have done that but it's happened towards the tail end of their careers. Like when the Laker team that lost to Detroit in the finals had Gary Payton and Karl Malone.

Ron Artest isn't a superstar but he did sign with the Lakers for less money than he could have received elsewhere.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

+1

in all honesty out of all the super stars in the last ten years in the NBA, I'm surprised that this hasn't ever really happened, at least for one year or something. Why hasn't someone just really hungry for a title came out and said hey this year I'll sign for the Veteran Minimum so this team can get another superstar and we can win an NBA championship..

Because it's all wrapped up in their ego...they have to get paid so much in order to have "bragging rights" about being the best.

[DeToxRox]

Bosh has a 5 team wishlist:

Chris Bosh's agent has told the Toronto Raptors that he's narrowed his list of preferred teams to five, two sources told ESPN.com's Chad Ford at the NBA draft camp.


The list of five teams -- Toronto plus the Chicago Bulls, Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat and New York Knicks, sources said -- were given to Toronto management in case the Raptors want to construct a sign-and-trade deal (assuming he doesn't re-sign with Toronto).

Bosh likes that option, sources told Ford, because he'd get one more year on his contract and could make more money.

Sources said the Raptors prefer a sign-and-trade if Bosh is intent on leaving as well. They likely would want a big man to replace the 6-10, 230-pound Bosh in the lineup.

One source said Bosh's decision hinges on where LeBron James signs.

"If LeBron decides to go to either New York or Chicago, I think that's where you'll see Chris land," the source told Ford. "If LeBron stays in Cleveland, I think the process is more wide open."

Bosh, 26, is an unrestricted free agent. He averaged 24 points per game last season and has averaged 20.2 points per game for his career.

[stevew]

I'm hoping that if LeBron does decide to stay, that it's on a 5 year contract. Every summer since he's been here, it's been "let's throw some crap on the roster and hope he will stay." They have never built this team correctly, and almost every acquision has been a player that basically another team no longer wanted.

Also, we've never had a good 2 guard, and I think that's a lot of the problem. Joe Johnson or Michael Redd instead of Larry Hughes was a problem. It was too bad they didn't want to give compensation for Johnson, and that Redd chose money and losing.

[MrBug708]

Awesome! I wouldn't mind a Bynum/Sasha trade for Bosh. Unless he wants a 1 year minimum exception to win a ring

[bhlloy]

I think the Raptors might be looking for a little more than a very injury prone C with a big contract and salary junk for Bosh. I'm guessing it takes a top 15 pick and some expirings to get it done.

NM - I see the article says they would be looking for a replacement big man, but I would stay the hell away from Bynum with the way his knees are at 23

[RainMaker]

I'm telling you guys, he's going to LA. I said it in the NBA thread. It makes the most sense. He gets on a championship team and becomes the future star attraction.

The Lakers also probably have the best deal available for him in offering up Bynum.

[MikeVic]

I like Bosh, and I don't like the Lakers, but I think he has the personality for LA too.

[DeToxRox]

According to ESPN Dirk is opting out later this month to become a FA July 1st.

Edited for clarity amongst other things.

[MrBug708]

I think you're overestimating the Lakers desire to trade Bynum. Buss Jr made his mark on taking a risk on Bynum and having him turn out to be a good player. I doubt he trades him that fast nor do I think the Lakers offer a max contract for him

[RainMaker]

He trades him for Bosh in a heartbeat.

[jbergey22]

Im not so sure. The Lakers really dont need any additional scoring. They need Bynums post defense. Bosh may be great on offense but hes certainly not a defensive stopper.

[MrBug708]

Ya, Buss Jr is considered kind of an idiot in the basketball world and the Bynum draft pick was his call. He's going to milk it for all its worth, even if it doesnt make basketball sense

[stevew]

Bosh should be a good compliment for the Sparks' front line. Wait, he's not a girl?

For me, for my money, he's going to be the most overpaid player this offseason by far. Bosh isn't a winner, he's going to play about 70 games a season and score 22points quietly.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by stevew

Bosh should be a good compliment for the Sparks' front line. Wait, he's not a girl?

For me, for my money, he's going to be the most overpaid player this offseason by far. Bosh isn't a winner, he's going to play about 70 games a season and score 22points quietly.

You think moreso then Amare?

[stevew]

I think Amare won't get as many years, or if he does it'll be with the Suns again and he seems to be doing just fine out there in their system.