Alright boyz, here we go!!! FM 2006 First Impressions - Page 40

Marc Vaughan · 05-30-2006, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daedalus

Off the top of my head, I believe Off the Ball and Positioning are also quite important to someone you would want to give a free role to. I don't know that I really would agree with giving someone on the flank that much freedom, however. You could be leaving that wing exposed to some serious counter-attacks.

In case anyones isn't aware:

"Off the ball"
This is the attacking movement related attribute. It helps determine how intelligently players more into space when off the ball (ie. a striker with 1 off the ball might have fantastic stats but under-perform because he's permanently marked and doesn't have the footballing intelligence to lose his marker by dropping deep or whatever).

"Positioning"
This is the defensive movement related attribute. It helps determine how intelligently a player positions himself with regards to defense. For instance a wing-back with 1 positioning is more likely to be caught 'short' having pushed forward then one with 20 positioning ...

PS> If giving free-roles/attacking mentality to wingbacks try and ensure they've got good pace, stamina and positioning if you don't want to find yourself seriously exposed on the flanks ...
If you're giving this to a winger then its not quite so serious unless you're playing 3 at the back (and the winger has defensive duties) because you'll have a defender behind him in most cases ... however it might be an idea to ensure that the central midfielder on his side is a work horse who will close any loose players down should the winger be caught out of position.

st.cronin · 05-30-2006, 10:54 AM

Thanks daedalus and MV. Is the free role primarily an attacking role, then?

Marc Vaughan · 05-30-2006, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Thanks daedalus and MV. Is the free role primarily an attacking role, then?

Yeah its largely an 'attacking' option - for safest results using it ensure that its not a player who is playing a critical defensive role, I've used it infrequently with DMC's where they're particually skillful players I've wanted brought into attack more often ... but generally I leave it to MC, AMC style players .....

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 12:45 PM

So I quit Chelsea in a defiance and am looking for a job...there ae about 15 jobs open and I've applied for them all, but none are hiring...anyone know why? Been 5 months for some...

Pumpy Tudors · 05-30-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

So I quit Chelsea in a defiance and am looking for a job...there ae about 15 jobs open and I've applied for them all, but none are hiring...anyone know why? Been 5 months for some...

Maybe they're all scared that you'll quit on them, too.

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 01:03 PM

I doubt it.

Im a world class manager and I've influenced at least three of the firings...Add in a Euro Championship...I'm gold...

I quit because the chairmen kept ruining my chemistry I built up...I did laugh when Riinse turned down his offer the first time. Made me laugh

Blade6119 · 05-30-2006, 01:06 PM

Anyone else have trouble getting offers for players on the transfer list, regardless of talent? I find i have to dramatically undercut their value to get offers, to the extent of having to sell a guy valued at 7 mil for 1.2 last night...and this isnt rare for me and my inter sqaud(and PSV before it). Anywhere near their value and they wont get a sniff

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 01:10 PM

Blade, a lot of time that is because they wont be able to afford the salary that comes with it...

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 01:11 PM

THis happened to me one time before. I think I took over CP and moved on. Well the team went managerless for at least a year, maybe two. I took over and they had 6 non greyed players. It was great because I really built a team from scratch

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 01:31 PM

I've decided to let it autorun while I go to school. Now, the new OOTP2006 can supposedly go 100 seasons in 6 hours? Something like that. I'll be gone for about 7. Maybe I'll get through 5 seasons? That or I'll have a job...

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 02:08 PM

Woot! 30 jobs frozen thus far..

The UK has seen clubs go on strike from hiring managers....

st.cronin · 05-30-2006, 04:56 PM

I love it when, on a goal kick, my goalie kicks the ball out of bounds, on the fly. On his side of the field.

SirFozzie · 05-30-2006, 04:59 PM

Just going to MLS games, I've seen that happen several times.

Usually gets a bronx cheer

st.cronin · 05-30-2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Just going to MLS games, I've seen that happen several times.

Usually gets a bronx cheer

That's really, really hard to believe.

My second favorite thing that happens in this game is when you are up a goal, and the game goes to injury time, and the referee says something like 4 minutes to play, but in reality just waits for the other team to tie the game, which however long that takes is how much extra time the game gets. Of course, if my team was the one trying to come back, he would say 1 minute to play, and would blow the whistle at exactly 91:00.

My third favorite thing that happens in this game is when the other team gets a goal, despite being hundreds of yards offsides, and moments later your squad gets whistled for offsides, despite the opponent having about 4 men back.

Marc Vaughan · 05-30-2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

So I quit Chelsea in a defiance and am looking for a job...there ae about 15 jobs open and I've applied for them all, but none are hiring...anyone know why? Been 5 months for some...

Which version of the game are you running?

SirFozzie · 05-30-2006, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

That's really, really hard to believe.

My second favorite thing that happens in this game is when you are up a goal, and the game goes to injury time, and the referee says something like 4 minutes to play, but in reality just waits for the other team to tie the game, which however long that takes is how much extra time the game gets. Of course, if my team was the one trying to come back, he would say 1 minute to play, and would blow the whistle at exactly 91:00.

My third favorite thing that happens in this game is when the other team gets a goal, despite being hundreds of yards offsides, and moments later your squad gets whistled for offsides, despite the opponent having about 4 men back.

Ah, I see you have the super-secret Man United version

MrBug708 · 05-30-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Which version of the game are you running?

Not a clue. Wouldnt stun me if I dont have the latest and greatest version.

st.cronin · 05-30-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ah, I see you have the super-secret Man United version

otoh, what a thrill to watch your goalie, whos stupid goal kicks have been driving you mad all game, launch a beautiful one over everybody which your forward amazingly stays onside and takes it all the way in for a score!

Katon · 05-30-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ah, I see you have the super-secret Man United version

or rather, his opponents do.

MikeVick7 · 05-30-2006, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

That's really, really hard to believe.

My second favorite thing that happens in this game is when you are up a goal, and the game goes to injury time, and the referee says something like 4 minutes to play, but in reality just waits for the other team to tie the game, which however long that takes is how much extra time the game gets. Of course, if my team was the one trying to come back, he would say 1 minute to play, and would blow the whistle at exactly 91:00.

Building on this...my favorite thing in the game is when you're up by 1 late in the game on extended highlights and the computer makes you watch the last 10 minutes of the game. Basically taunting you and making your life pure hell.

And then on the flipside...if you're down by one...I love it when the computer will just let the last 10 mins of the game roll off w/o showing you one highlight.

vex · 05-30-2006, 09:52 PM

Just thought I'd report that I finally got the game. It had always been a problem of me getting into the game. I'm still confused about, well, a lot

, but having a lot of fun.

I'm playing as Taranto in C2/C in Italy. I love starting at the bottom and working my way up.

DaddyTorgo · 05-30-2006, 09:55 PM

just dont let starting on the bottom and working your way up kill your enjoyment of the game. it does have the potential to do that i think cuz of the lack of available players and "names" and such

vex · 05-30-2006, 10:00 PM

As far as names, I don't pay attention to soccer IRL, so I only know the REALLY big names like Beckham, Adu, Ronaldo et al. Which as you said, is another reason that I could never get into the game.

path12 · 05-30-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

just dont let starting on the bottom and working your way up kill your enjoyment of the game. it does have the potential to do that i think cuz of the lack of available players and "names" and such

One of the great things about this game for me is that I've never really followed the European game closely enough to even know who the "names" are (of course I'm much more aware after playing for five years). But I also prefer fictional universes on FOF and now PureSim, so maybe it's just me....

Anyway Vex, fire away with questions. We'll answer 'em best we can.

DaddyTorgo · 05-30-2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vex

As far as names, I don't pay attention to soccer IRL, so I only know the REALLY big names like Beckham, Adu, Ronaldo et al. Which as you said, is another reason that I could never get into the game.

well then you should be okay. i always found it discouraging in the beginning having very little $$ to work with and having to adjust to buying guys with flaws in their games.

st.cronin · 05-30-2006, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vex

Just thought I'd report that I finally got the game. It had always been a problem of me getting into the game. I'm still confused about, well, a lot

, but having a lot of fun.

I'm playing as Taranto in C2/C in Italy. I love starting at the bottom and working my way up.

I'm having a fun career playing in Italy. There actually is some good talent lying around, you've just got to poke about for it.

MrBug708 · 05-31-2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Which version of the game are you running?

Downloaded the without data 6.03 and there are now over 50 jobs with no managers in the year 2013. Quite interesting but not sure if the patch will help. Oh well I guess

daedalus · 05-31-2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Anyone else have trouble getting offers for players on the transfer list, regardless of talent? I find i have to dramatically undercut their value to get offers, to the extent of having to sell a guy valued at 7 mil for 1.2 last night...and this isnt rare for me and my inter sqaud(and PSV before it). Anywhere near their value and they wont get a sniff

If they know you have to sell (whether it's upcoming contract expiration or discontent), they are not going to offer you top money. Likewise, some players (like Anelka) carry around enough baggages that they cannot fetch the price match their talent level.

st.cronin · 05-31-2006, 11:39 PM

Remember, eating gives you the strength to keep on playing.

MikeVick7 · 06-02-2006, 05:11 PM

This is definitely a first for me. Check out the Slight Concerns. This is after he was red carded in my last match.

DaddyTorgo · 06-02-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVick7

This is definitely a first for me. Check out the Slight Concerns. This is after he was red carded in my last match.

hedwiges maduro?!? i've got him on my squad! he can be a bit of an unhappy git. and don't tell me you've got my man Mirko. Mirko has been a godsend for me in my career, without looking it up i'd say he's prolly averaging more than a point per match. he's dominating Spain.

MikeVick7 · 06-02-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

hedwiges maduro?!? i've got him on my squad! he can be a bit of an unhappy git. and don't tell me you've got my man Mirko. Mirko has been a godsend for me in my career, without looking it up i'd say he's prolly averaging more than a point per match. he's dominating Spain.

lol....yeah I do have Mirko as well. Such a stud that guy is.

And yeah I think Hedwiges will be on his way out after this season. I'm not liking his play for me this year.

DaddyTorgo · 06-02-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVick7

lol....yeah I do have Mirko as well. Such a stud that guy is.

And yeah I think Hedwiges will be on his way out after this season. I'm not liking his play for me this year.

i may end up shipping hedwiges out too. i'm always tempted not too because he is so young and his potential is so great, but i think i may just cut-bait with him.

Mirko OTOH...I bought some Brazillian wonderkid in for 20 million dollars to be my second striker...Mirko isn't letting him sniff the field!

Flasch186 · 06-03-2006, 02:58 PM

Im in a difficult position...For the first time Im seriously considering leaving Highwood Stadium for greener pastures. Deportivo just offered me a killer deal:

425K/yr.
16.5M in transfer funds
15.25,/yr. in payroll and room for more

Forest Green has some hot prospects in the future but Im tired of the grind with them. Now weve been showing poor form and are in 10th in Championship division and I love playing in England...would a move to Italy be that bad? Wouldnt this be a life changing, historic move? ugh, what to do.

ice4277 · 06-03-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Im in a difficult position...For the first time Im seriously considering leaving Highwood Stadium for greener pastures. Deportivo just offered me a killer deal:

425K/yr.
16.5M in transfer funds
15.25,/yr. in payroll and room for more

Forest Green has some hot prospects in the future but Im tired of the grind with them. Now weve been showing poor form and are in 10th in Championship division and I love playing in England...would a move to Italy be that bad? Wouldnt this be a life changing, historic move? ugh, what to do.

Well, considering that Deportivo are in Spain, moving to Italy might be a bad idea, yeah.

MikeVick7 · 06-03-2006, 03:09 PM

AlexB · 06-03-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ice4277

Well, considering that Deportivo are in Spain, moving to Italy might be a bad idea, yeah.

Flasch186 · 06-03-2006, 03:54 PM

sorry, i thought that that was their abbreviation but it is:

Club Deportivo Pachuca

theyre in the Premera Division in MEXICO!!!!

Forget it!! I am not moving to MExico, Italy is one thing but Mexico no way!!

sorry for the screw up before.

RPI-Fan · 06-03-2006, 04:22 PM

Well, after not playing my 7-year career in Russia because the game got too slow (I was running too many leagues), I started a game in France running 4 levels in France and nothing else.

I've had a very hard time getting into it, but I just had a really good session where I really feel like I'm starting to know my players and I think I'm starting to yearn to play that save game.

Hopefully that's the case because I could see playing that game for a LONG time since it runs SOO fast.

~rpi-fan

BreizhManu · 06-03-2006, 05:18 PM

who did you take ?

DaddyTorgo · 06-03-2006, 05:41 PM

Maduro just put up a "5" in another half of play for me. That makes his average rating for me 7.04 in 18 matches. Goodbye biatch.

AlexB · 06-03-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Maduro just put up a "5" in another half of play for me. That makes his average rating for me 7.04 in 18 matches. Goodbye biatch.

7.04 average is pretty damned good.. OK a 5 isn;t great, but one bad performance and you're showing him all the doors marked exit? Sounds a bit harsh...

tanglewood · 06-03-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Maduro just put up a "5" in another half of play for me. That makes his average rating for me 7.04 in 18 matches. Goodbye biatch.

Bit harsh, 7.04 is perfectly respectable.

DaddyTorgo · 06-03-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

7.04 average is pretty damned good.. OK a 5 isn;t great, but one bad performance and you're showing him all the doors marked exit? Sounds a bit harsh...

7.04 won't cut it. Not at Real Madrid. Not with the talent I have available and the big games I have to play.

edit: i like to hold my defenders (especially central) to AT LEAST a 7.25-7.3 standard. and for all the bitching about not playing enuf that Maduro has done, he's gotta put up more than a 7.04

edit x2: after that 5 his average is actually 6.82

RPI-Fan · 06-03-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

who did you take ?

Tours

MikeVick7 · 06-03-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Maduro just put up a "5" in another half of play for me. That makes his average rating for me 7.04 in 18 matches. Goodbye biatch.

Nope, I'm with DT here. Maduro is definitely not an ideal centre back. I just unloaded him after last season for 4+ million. (Firefox won't let me type the british pound symbol) Then I picked up Robert Huth from Chelsea and feel much better about my backline.

DaddyTorgo · 06-03-2006, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVick7

Nope, I'm with DT here. Maduro is definitely not an ideal centre back. I just unloaded him after last season for 4+ million. (Firefox won't let me type the british pound symbol) Then I picked up Robert Huth from Chelsea and feel much better about my backline.

i am totally agonizing over losing Raul this coming season but i dont want to pay 9 million dollars to have him as a backup for a couple years so he can finish his career with madrid. love this game!

RPI-Fan · 06-03-2006, 08:13 PM

Does anyone else have a problem with starting the season very slow time after time?

I wonder if scheduling really easy friendlies, or really hard friendlies might make a difference? Right now I don't even manage the friendly games that I have (they're usually teams in my own divisoin).

Any advice to get off to better starts to the season?

st.cronin · 06-03-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Does anyone else have a problem with starting the season very slow time after time?

I wonder if scheduling really easy friendlies, or really hard friendlies might make a difference? Right now I don't even manage the friendly games that I have (they're usually teams in my own divisoin).

Any advice to get off to better starts to the season?

I have definitely seen this after getting promoted.

MikeVick7 · 06-03-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Does anyone else have a problem with starting the season very slow time after time?

I wonder if scheduling really easy friendlies, or really hard friendlies might make a difference? Right now I don't even manage the friendly games that I have (they're usually teams in my own divisoin).

Any advice to get off to better starts to the season?

Do you buy new players during the offseason? How many starters do you return each year? It takes time to gel if you bring in numerous new players each season.

05-30-2006, 10:54 AM	#1952
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Thanks daedalus and MV. Is the free role primarily an attacking role, then? __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

05-30-2006, 01:06 PM	#1957
Blade6119 Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona	Anyone else have trouble getting offers for players on the transfer list, regardless of talent? I find i have to dramatically undercut their value to get offers, to the extent of having to sell a guy valued at 7 mil for 1.2 last night...and this isnt rare for me and my inter sqaud(and PSV before it). Anywhere near their value and they wont get a sniff __________________ *Underachievement* The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the lawnmower. *Despair* It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black. *Demotivation* Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy people. http://www.despair.com/viewall.html

05-30-2006, 04:56 PM	#1962
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I love it when, on a goal kick, my goalie kicks the ball out of bounds, on the fly. On his side of the field. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

05-30-2006, 04:59 PM	#1963
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Just going to MLS games, I've seen that happen several times. Usually gets a bronx cheer __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

05-30-2006, 09:52 PM	#1971
vex Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tulsa	Just thought I'd report that I finally got the game. It had always been a problem of me getting into the game. I'm still confused about, well, a lot, but having a lot of fun. I'm playing as Taranto in C2/C in Italy. I love starting at the bottom and working my way up.

05-30-2006, 12:45 PM	#1954
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	So I quit Chelsea in a defiance and am looking for a job...there ae about 15 jobs open and I've applied for them all, but none are hiring...anyone know why? Been 5 months for some...

05-30-2006, 01:03 PM	#1956
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	I doubt it. Im a world class manager and I've influenced at least three of the firings...Add in a Euro Championship...I'm gold... I quit because the chairmen kept ruining my chemistry I built up...I did laugh when Riinse turned down his offer the first time. Made me laugh

05-30-2006, 01:10 PM	#1958
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Blade, a lot of time that is because they wont be able to afford the salary that comes with it...

05-30-2006, 01:11 PM	#1959
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	THis happened to me one time before. I think I took over CP and moved on. Well the team went managerless for at least a year, maybe two. I took over and they had 6 non greyed players. It was great because I really built a team from scratch

05-30-2006, 01:31 PM	#1960
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	I've decided to let it autorun while I go to school. Now, the new OOTP2006 can supposedly go 100 seasons in 6 hours? Something like that. I'll be gone for about 7. Maybe I'll get through 5 seasons? That or I'll have a job...

05-30-2006, 02:08 PM	#1961
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Woot! 30 jobs frozen thus far.. The UK has seen clubs go on strike from hiring managers....

05-30-2006, 09:55 PM	#1972
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	just dont let starting on the bottom and working your way up kill your enjoyment of the game. it does have the potential to do that i think cuz of the lack of available players and "names" and such

05-30-2006, 10:00 PM	#1973
vex Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tulsa	As far as names, I don't pay attention to soccer IRL, so I only know the REALLY big names like Beckham, Adu, Ronaldo et al. Which as you said, is another reason that I could never get into the game.

05-31-2006, 11:39 PM	#1979
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Remember, eating gives you the strength to keep on playing. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

06-02-2006, 05:11 PM	#1980
MikeVick7 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ron, Mexico	This is definitely a first for me. Check out the Slight Concerns. This is after he was red carded in my last match. __________________ Hattrick - Seattle Reign (224367)

06-03-2006, 02:58 PM	#1984
Flasch186 Coordinator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL	Im in a difficult position...For the first time Im seriously considering leaving Highwood Stadium for greener pastures. Deportivo just offered me a killer deal: 425K/yr. 16.5M in transfer funds 15.25,/yr. in payroll and room for more Forest Green has some hot prospects in the future but Im tired of the grind with them. Now weve been showing poor form and are in 10th in Championship division and I love playing in England...would a move to Italy be that bad? Wouldnt this be a life changing, historic move? ugh, what to do. __________________ Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL

06-03-2006, 03:09 PM	#1986
MikeVick7 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ron, Mexico	oops __________________ Hattrick - Seattle Reign (224367)

06-03-2006, 03:54 PM	#1988
Flasch186 Coordinator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL	sorry, i thought that that was their abbreviation but it is: Club Deportivo Pachuca theyre in the Premera Division in MEXICO!!!! Forget it!! I am not moving to MExico, Italy is one thing but Mexico no way!! sorry for the screw up before. __________________ Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL

06-03-2006, 04:22 PM	#1989
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	Well, after not playing my 7-year career in Russia because the game got too slow (I was running too many leagues), I started a game in France running 4 levels in France and nothing else. I've had a very hard time getting into it, but I just had a really good session where I really feel like I'm starting to know my players and I think I'm starting to yearn to play that save game. Hopefully that's the case because I could see playing that game for a LONG time since it runs SOO fast. ~rpi-fan __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

06-03-2006, 05:18 PM	#1990
BreizhManu College Benchwarmer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Paris, France	who did you take ?

06-03-2006, 05:41 PM	#1991
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	Maduro just put up a "5" in another half of play for me. That makes his average rating for me 7.04 in 18 matches. Goodbye biatch.

06-03-2006, 08:13 PM	#1998
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	Does anyone else have a problem with starting the season very slow time after time? I wonder if scheduling really easy friendlies, or really hard friendlies might make a difference? Right now I don't even manage the friendly games that I have (they're usually teams in my own divisoin). Any advice to get off to better starts to the season? __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

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