The Trump Presidency – 2016

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So we now have a Saudi Arabia's air force officer killing us (and supposedly co-students, at best, passively involved)

It wouldn't surprise me as much if it was some grunt but these (I assume like their US counterparts) are highly educated, screened, and loyal.

Must be more to the story.

https://apnews.com/75a8adc71422596a54052540fabb7230

If there was an opportunity, to suspend a program, send all current students out of the county, reconsider the current program, screening, etc, and have the Pentagon address these issues with SA and viability of continuing the program, this would be it.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Oh, yeah, and Trump is corrupt and is getting God knows what from Erdogan.

I confess to being fairly ignorant on foreign policy, it's just not my strong suit. But from where I sit, we don't really need a complex rationale to explain Trump's series of strange positions and statements about basically everything in Europe and the northern edges of the Middle East. It all seems to connect to Russia very nicely.

Whether it's a matter of him/them feeling indebted to Russia for assistance in the last election, him/them becoming persuaded as a matter of policy that the Russian goals are worthy, or him/them seeking some further personal enrichment from the relationship... I/we don't know, and it might not even matter at this point. If you start with the assumption that Trump and his administration are pursuing or abetting a Russian agenda in that part of the world, then basically everything else flows from there fairly naturally.

[Edward64]

Admittedly, not the beautiful wall I was expecting (nor free to US taxpayers which I never believed), but good to see some new construction.

Article states 8 miles for $167M which is approx $21M per mile. Simplistic extrapolation, for $10B we'll get 476 miles.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-b...mp-2019-12-04/

Nearly three years after President Trump took office, work is finally underway on one of his key campaign promises. CBS News was able to get access to the locations where new border wall is being constructed along the 2,000-mile-long southern border.

In rural south Texas, construction crews are pushing to finish an 8-mile stretch of border wall in the town of Donna. The total cost is about $167 million.

West of Donna, CBS News saw a second 3-mile stretch of wall that is also being built. Nearly $10 billion has been diverted from government agencies for wall funding. That's a bill U.S. taxpayers, not Mexico, are footing.

Border Patrol Sector Chief Rodolfo Karisch said it's just a start. "We're looking at about 80 to 90 miles over the next year to year and a half," he said. But it won't all be connected.
:
:
At least 78 miles of existing wall has been replaced along the southern border since 2017. Mr. Trump has called these refurbished walls unclimbable. But a video posted on social media shows two men scaling a replaced portion of the wall in California.

[Lathum]

How is it good?

We have a president who claims to love the military, yet he would rather spend billions on a useless wall to appease his xenophobic base than use that money for something better. Lets also not forget a lot of this money is being funneled from military projects.

FFS that article states the sections wont be connected.

---------------------- BROWN PEOPLE -------------------
WALL WALL

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How is it good?

We have a president who claims to love the military, yet he would rather spend billions on a useless wall to appease his xenophobic base than use that money for something better. Lets also not forget a lot of this money is being funneled from military projects.

FFS that article states the sections wont be connected.

---------------------- BROWN PEOPLE -------------------
WALL WALL

No one expects it to be perfect. As fair as reducing illegals, I'd think that once completed and operational (and it probably never will be if Trump doesn't win second term), it will reduce quite a bit. Purely my swag, I would hope by 70-80%?

I agree with the term xenophobic as its "dislike or prejudice" vs racist (used way too often here IMO). The additional context I would add is approx a third of hispanics support a wall, so its not just old white Americans.

On not being connected, give him the $40-$50B (number I once heard early on) and I'm sure it'll be connected where the Border Patrol thinks best.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No one expects it to be perfect. As fair as reducing illegals, I'd think that once completed and operational (and it probably never will be if Trump doesn't win second term), it will reduce quite a bit. Purely my swag, I would hope by 70-80%?

62% of illegals came in on visas last year. And between boats, airplanes, tunnels, gaps and trucks there is no reason to think you'll get near that number even on border crossings.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No one expects it to be perfect. As fair as reducing illegals, I'd think that once completed and operational (and it probably never will be if Trump doesn't win second term), it will reduce quite a bit. Purely my swag, I would hope by 70-80%?

I agree with the term xenophobic as its "dislike or prejudice" vs racist (used way too often here IMO). The additional context I would add is approx a third of hispanics support a wall, so its not just old white Americans.

On not being connected, give him the $40-$50B (number I once heard early on) and I'm sure it'll be connected where the Border Patrol thinks best.

How about we spend that money actually trying to fix the economies, etc..of those countries instead of on an absurd, useless wall?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ryche

62% of illegals came in on visas last year. And between boats, airplanes, tunnels, gaps and trucks there is no reason to think you'll get near that number even on border crossings.

Sorry, I should have said reduce by 70-80% that cross illegally at the southern border.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How about we spend that money actually trying to fix the economies, etc..of those countries instead of on an absurd, useless wall?

Helping fix the economies ... it'll never be enough help.

But absolutely agree we need a holistic immigration reform package which includes Wall, more guest workers, allow higher educated more slots, help grow the economies (somehow), bullying Mexico to step up enforcement (which is working to a degree) etc.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But absolutely agree we need a holistic immigration reform package which includes Wall, more guest workers, allow higher educated more slots, help grow the economies (somehow), bullying Mexico to step up enforcement (which is working to a degree) etc.

But for now, staging some impotent political theater to show the worst among us that we're serious about the "brown people problem" gets chalked up as "good." Got it.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No one expects it to be perfect. As fair as reducing illegals, I'd think that once completed and operational (and it probably never will be if Trump doesn't win second term), it will reduce quite a bit. Purely my swag, I would hope by 70-80%?

You are being wildly optimistic. Between ladders, saws, tunnels, and areas where a wall simply can't be built, it won't put a dent in the numbers. Anybody I've talked to that's ever crossed the border illegally laughs at the idea of a wall stopping them.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

But for now, staging some impotent political theater to show the worst among us that we're serious about the "brown people problem" gets chalked up as "good." Got it.

Doesn't seem impotent to me. At the very least, he has succeeded in bullying Mexico to patrol the border and he has brought awareness that something has to be done (one way or another, good or bad depending on your POV) vs same old do-nothing-much.

Too bad the Obama didn't see reforming immigration as something he wanted to spend his political capital on and/or cared enough about during his 8 years.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by lungs

You are being wildly optimistic. Between ladders, saws, tunnels, and areas where a wall simply can't be built, it won't put a dent in the numbers. Anybody I've talked to that's ever crossed the border illegally laughs at the idea of a wall stopping them.

Yeah, I can see that on the $10B version. All the more reason we need the $40-50B version.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Too bad the Obama didn't see reforming immigration as something he wanted to spend his political capital on and/or cared enough about during his 8 years.

Undocumented immigration dropped drastically under Obama.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yeah, I can see that on the $10B version. All the more reason we need the $40-50B version.

You could throw trillions of dollars at a wall. Still won't work.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by molson

Undocumented immigration dropped drastically under Obama.

Probably because there's weren't that many jobs back then? Or care to share what policies Obama enacted that would explain the drop?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by lungs

You could throw trillions of dollars at a wall. Still won't work.

Trillion dollars (lets say over 5-7 years) is a lot of money. I'd lay odds it'll work assuming its managed and apportioned properly by/to commercial firms (e.g. Blackwater-and-such patrolling the border)

[Atocep]

Is is the same wall you're able to cut through with Home depot saws?

I guess we can just assume brown people can't afford to go to home depot so it's effectively impenetrable.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Is is the same wall you're able to cut through with Home depot saws?

I guess we can just assume brown people can't afford to go to home depot so it's effectively impenetrable.

Too bad he can't get the $40-$50B version where maybe there will be more guards patrolling the wall.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Too bad he can't get the $40-$50B version where maybe there will be more guards patrolling the wall.

Seriously?

It is a 2500 mile border, exactly how many guards should we have?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Too bad he can't get the $40-$50B version where maybe there will be more guards patrolling the wall.

Yeah it's too bad the military doesn't have more housing and school projects they could steal money from. Let me tell you, living in old SS barracks in Germany, then previously condemned housing on a closed Fort Ord, and Housing that was condemned within a year of leaving San Antonio was the highlight of my military career. Then you can add to that the elementary school on Fort Lewis my son attended that wasn't large enough for the number of students and didn't have a gym or cafeteria.

But at least we get a wall that's both cuttable with home power saws and easily climable despite data and scientists saying it's going to have miminal impact on the actual problem.

[PilotMan]

The only true plan that will work in Mexico will never work. It involves a stance, where you do brand the cartels and terrorist organizations. You go to the people and say, you want to come here for money, and jobs, well, let's make Mexico have the same prosperity as the US. The massive problem though, is that the central government in MEX is just too weak to ferret out the corruption and back dealings at the state level (which coincidentally, is exactly the kind of government the Grover Nordquist's of the world want). It involves a lot of legit fighting, warfare, innocent deaths, and the destruction of the only thing that is bringing money into and supporting many of the towns in Northern Mexico. Idealistically, you'd create a thriving culture that buffers (see Turkey) the land (except that they functionally annexed the land), with a combination of people who want the same things. In order to pull such a thing off you'd have to be ok with lots of dead bodies, dead civilians, and Mexico would have to allow the US military to operate within their country, alongside their government, killing Mexicans. That will never happen either. See Afghanistan for a similar failed attempt, because you can't have it both ways. You can't just eradicate the problem without the locals turning on you, as you're taking away the only thing that has ever supported them. On paper, in a strategy game, that's exactly what I'd do. Americans haven't invested in anything without a profit margin in decades. So they would see this as just throwing good money down the drain. But like infrastructure investments, the payoffs would happen years and years down the road. A wall doesn't do anything, unless you're using it as part of a much more comprehensive, technological determent and security platform utilizing topography, drones, and more officers. Many, many more officers.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Seriously?

It is a 2500 mile border, exactly how many guards should we have?

Clearly we need to reinstate the draft and have everyone spend three years marching east to west to save us from the brown menace.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Seriously?

It is a 2500 mile border, exactly how many guards should we have?

Let’s level set first and agree there isn’t an additional 500 miles of border

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Clearly we need to reinstate the draft and have everyone spend three years marching east to west to save us from the brown menace.

I would hope there would be electronic and other type of surveillance with $40-50B budget.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

A wall doesn't do anything, unless you're using it as part of a much more comprehensive, technological determent and security platform utilizing topography, drones, and more officers. Many, many more officers.

I agree with you here.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Let’s level set first and agree there isn’t an additional 500 miles of border

This is such a typical response for someone who buys in to this nonsense, deflect, deflect. 2000 or 2500 doesn't matter.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I agree with you here.

You can also have a very similar solution without a wall, just as effective. That's why it's a complete waste of money.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is such a typical response for someone who buys in to this nonsense, deflect, deflect. 2000 or 2500 doesn't matter.

In this day and age of fake news and hyperbole, and mis-aligned definitions ...

I would say the same to you where you focus only on "guards" when I've stated it needs to be a holistic solution where the wall are just part of.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You can also have a very similar solution without a wall, just as effective. That's why it's a complete waste of money.

I appreciate your post as you've obviously put thought into it.

I do not believe the Wall (+other stuff) is the only solution but honestly, other recent administrations were given an opportunity to make change, and nothing much has happened. If it takes a buffoon to do a sales job on his base and reallocate funds to make things happen I'm all for it.

Trump and the Wall has forced this discussion into the forefront where it once wasn't. And it will continue to do so even if Trump loses 2020 and that, in itself, is not a bad thing. I sincerely hope the next Democratic administration will act decisively and reform immigration because Trump's way right now seems very piecemeal (but doing something is better than doing not-much-at-all).

[RainMaker]

Easiest way to stop it is to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants. Also stop fucking with their countries so they have to leave.

[JPhillips]

Real immigration reform won't happen as long as the GOP is a white nationalist party looking to reduce legal as well as illegal immigration. So all that can happen is wasteful, symbolic gestures like the wall. Nothing changes, but the GOP can point to their legos and demand people clap for them.

[bronconick]

Immigration will be the GOP's new boogeyman to rally to the polls for the next 20 years since they're about to "win" on abortion with the Supreme Court.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

... and scientists saying it's going to have miminal impact on the actual problem.

I would honestly like to read more about this, hoping it truly is a substantive analysis. Appreciate a link when you get a chance.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I would honestly like to read more about this, hoping it truly is a substantive analysis. Appreciate a link when you get a chance.

Previous administrations didn't push the need for this because it because both parties deemed expanding the border wall expensive, unfeasible, and unnecessary.

The High Cost and Diminishing Returns of a Border Wall | American Immigration Council

Though recent comments by the DHS leadership and GOP members of Congress show support for a wall, this is a change in tone from their past insistence that a wall was not necessary. Former Commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Gil Kerlikowske said in January 2017, “I think that anyone who’s been familiar with the southwest border and the terrain ... kind of recognizes that building a wall along the entire southwest border is probably not going to work,” adding that he does not “think it is feasible” or the “smartest way to use taxpayer money on infrastructure.”

The head of the National Border Patrol Council, a union representing 16,000 Border Patrol agents which endorsed President Trump during his campaign, said, “We do not need a wall along the entire 2,000 miles of border.” He went on to say, “If I were to quantify an actual number, I would say that we need about 30 percent. Thirty percent of our border has to have an actual fence [or] wall.” The existing 650 miles make up more than 30 percent of the 2,000 mile border.

According to an internal U.S. government study obtained by Reuters in April 2016, CBP indicated that more technology is needed along the border to create a “virtual wall.” The agency requested better radios and more aerial drones, but only 23 more miles of fences.

The only reason the GOP is supporting a border wall now is because Trump made is popular with his based during his campaign and we've seen congressional GOP will do absolutely anything to avoid alienating Trump's base.


Cato institute article on why a border wall won't work for further reading:

Why the Wall Won't Work | Cato Institute


I throw the ball back in your court. Find a well sourced and reliable study that shows a border wall will be effective. The DHS website is pretty much the only place you'll find data showing a wall will work and the DHS didn't believe that as recently as 3 years ago because the government's own internal studies showed otherwise.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I appreciate your post as you've obviously put thought into it.

I do not believe the Wall (+other stuff) is the only solution but honestly, other recent administrations were given an opportunity to make change, and nothing much has happened. If it takes a buffoon to do a sales job on his base and reallocate funds to make things happen I'm all for it.

Trump and the Wall has forced this discussion into the forefront where it once wasn't. And it will continue to do so even if Trump loses 2020 and that, in itself, is not a bad thing. I sincerely hope the next Democratic administration will act decisively and reform immigration because Trump's way right now seems very piecemeal (but doing something is better than doing not-much-at-all).

The sad part is that population trends suggest we will need more and more of these immigrants to support an aging population with a falling birth rate.

So keeping immigrants out (whether it works or not) merely exacerbates what will become a major problem in the near future.

[JediKooter]

How do I know 'Trump's Foley #2' is all about keeping the brown people out and nothing but masturbation material for his racist voting base (and steve miller)? Someone please point to me the wall that will separate the US from Canada please. If it really was about illegal immigration, there would be a wall up north, not just on the southern border.

I for one do not accept the white utopia that trump and his ilk and his deplorable supporters want.

[NobodyHere]

How many illegal immigrants cross over from Canada vs Mexico?

[albionmoonlight]

Alaska Cod Fishery To Close For 2020 Season Amid Warming Waters : NPR

It will snow somewhere this winter, and Trump will tweet that that proves that climate change isn't real, and very serious Republicans will all agree that the science is still unsettled.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Probably because there's weren't that many jobs back then? Or care to share what policies Obama enacted that would explain the drop?

WTF? Biden is getting hammered by the left right now because Obama's reputation was "Deporter in Chief". Removals increased - and now Biden is having to answer questions in the debates on this. How in the world is this conveniently forgotten by the right?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

How in the world is this conveniently forgotten by the right?

asked and answered... "convenient"

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Previous administrations didn't push the need for this because it because both parties deemed expanding the border wall expensive, unfeasible, and unnecessary.

The High Cost and Diminishing Returns of a Border Wall | American Immigration Council

The only reason the GOP is supporting a border wall now is because Trump made is popular with his based during his campaign and we've seen congressional GOP will do absolutely anything to avoid alienating Trump's base.

Cato institute article on why a border wall won't work for further reading:

Why the Wall Won't Work | Cato Institute

I throw the ball back in your court. Find a well sourced and reliable study that shows a border wall will be effective. The DHS website is pretty much the only place you'll find data showing a wall will work and the DHS didn't believe that as recently as 3 years ago because the government's own internal studies showed otherwise.

Thanks for the info. I'll take a closer look and reply back later.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The sad part is that population trends suggest we will need more and more of these immigrants to support an aging population with a falling birth rate.

So keeping immigrants out (whether it works or not) merely exacerbates what will become a major problem in the near future.

In a holistic immigration reform package, I'm all for legal immigration to mitigate our low birth rates and to position us for the future. I've said in previous posts that we should encourage legal immigration and give preference (and more slots) to highly educated, key professionals (e.g. nurses, doctors) etc.

There are definitely jobs that Americans don't want to do and I'm definitely for increasing guest worker program. I'm not sure where I stand on DACA but am leaning towards a path to citizenship.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

How many illegal immigrants cross over from Canada vs Mexico?

From south of the border (not just Mexico)

Access Denied


From Canada

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-shows-n981131

More than 960 people crossed into the U.S. illegally from the northern border with Canada last year, according to data released from Customs and Border Protection.

While that number is a tiny fraction compared to the migration across the border with Mexico, it represented a 91 percent increase from the prior fiscal year, the data showed.

For total illegals in the US

Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the countries of origin for the largest numbers of illegal immigrants are as follows (latest of 2017):[43]

Country of origin Raw number Percent of total
Mexico 6,640,000 55
El Salvador 700,000 6
Guatemala 640,000 5
India 430,000 4
Honduras 400,000 3
Philippines 360,000 3
China 270,000 2
Korea 250,000 2
Vietnam 200,000 2
Dominican Republic 180,000 1
Other 2,050,000 17

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

WTF? Biden is getting hammered by the left right now because Obama's reputation was "Deporter in Chief". Removals increased - and now Biden is having to answer questions in the debates on this. How in the world is this conveniently forgotten by the right?

The discussion topic was

Undocumented immigration dropped drastically under Obama.

Are you saying that Obama's policies on deportation was the reason why vs bad economy and no jobs?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The discussion topic was



Are you saying that Obama's policies on deportation was the reason why vs bad economy and no jobs?

That's your discussion topic (ignoring that the economy was on a steady increase from Obama's 2nd year). Which was a goalpost moving from your why didn't Obama do anything about immigration.

If you want a decent discussion about these things you need to stop being so intellectually dishonest.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

How many illegal immigrants cross over from Canada vs Mexico?

Honestly, I have no idea what the numbers are and don't think that's really important if you reeaaally just want to stop illegal immigration, regardless if it's 1 or 1,000,000. However, the argument the right/conservatives always like to use is "What part of ILLEGAL do liberals not understand?". So if it really is just about illegal immigrants, then they would want a wall in the north and south. They would also realize that most people here illegally were here legally initially, then they would want a wall at all the airports, seaports and up down our coast lines. But in reality, it isn't about how many illegal immigrants there are, it's about the non white ones.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That's your discussion topic (ignoring that the economy was on a steady increase from Obama's 2nd year). Which was a goalpost moving from your why didn't Obama do anything about immigration.

If you want a decent discussion about these things you need to stop being so intellectually dishonest.

See #20436 to who/what I was responding to.

Sorry I got you triggered.

FWIW, declined started before Obama got into office.

[ISiddiqui]

Which was based on a response to #20432. But sure, do your goalpost shifting, "the discussion is" bullshit that just serves to hide the ball as opposed to actually having an intellectually honest discussion about these issues.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Which was based on a response to #20432. But sure, do your goalpost shifting, "the discussion is" bullshit that just serves to hide the ball as opposed to actually having an intellectually honest discussion about these issues.

I believe I've been pretty honest about my opinions on illegal immigration and don't feel that I have to hide the ball.

Sorry you feel that way. Feel free to ignore me and I'll do the same.