COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You ok with a child molester getting a ventilator over your wife or mother?

That's a horseshit question. No one would be taking your mother's ventilator.

When you get to productive members of society, that really sounds like letting the poor die in order to save the rich. Do you really look at the world in those terms?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are people who work at a prison too. The virus doesn't just die within those prison gates.

I never once said anything about their care

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That's a horseshit question. No one would be taking your mother's ventilator.

When you get to productive members of society, that really sounds like letting the poor die in order to save the rich. Do you really look at the world in those terms?

that is your interpretation. Poor doesn't equate to criminals, do you look at the world in those terms?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That's a horseshit question. No one would be taking your mother's ventilator.

Really?

Are ventilators an infinite resource?

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'll ask you the same question. What is your solution?

You ok with a child molester getting a ventilator over your wife or mother?

I guess to turn the question around (because you've gone straight to one extreme to make your point) would you be OK with your mother who was in prison on a short sentence for a DUI or a white collar crime just being left to die because she happened to be in prison in the middle of a pandemic?

I'd have thought there was an obvious solution - within reason treat them like any other member of society who needs critical care within the confines of the prison system. Obviously many of those in prison aren't going to get put onto regular medical wards, but there are prison hospitals and other medical resources and they should be treated and prioritized like anybody else would be. The other solution seems to be once you've gone to prison, you are SOL when it comes to medical or other care if we need the resources elsewhere.

[JPhillips]

You're the one that said productive members of society. What's that mean if not less affluent?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You're the one that said productive members of society. What's that mean if not less affluent?

It means people who don't commit crimes.

Plenty of less affluent people are productive members of society. To suggest otherwise is comical.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I never once said anything about their care

Well you said we shouldn't be providing resources to it. I'm just pointing out that these aren't closed systems. If the virus runs rampant through a prison, workers and guests in that prison are going to get it and bring it back to their communities.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Really?

Are ventilators an infinite resource?

Okay, let's play this game. Would you take away a ventilator from a foreign national to save your mom? A cancer patient? A child? What exactly is your hierarchy of life worth? Surely your mom ranks higher than just above prisoner.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I guess to turn the question around (because you've gone straight to one extreme to make your point) would you be OK with your mother who was in prison on a short sentence for a DUI or a white collar crime just being left to die because she happened to be in prison in the middle of a pandemic?

I'd have thought there was an obvious solution - within reason treat them like any other member of society who needs critical care within the confines of the prison system. Obviously many of those in prison aren't going to get put onto regular medical wards, but there are prison hospitals and other medical resources and they should be treated and prioritized like anybody else would be. The other solution seems to be once you've gone to prison, you are SOL when it comes to medical or other care if we need the resources elsewhere.

Would I be OK with it? I would be sad. Would I understand it? Yes I would.

We all want to seem so altruistic and act like all lives are equal. The reality is there are POS people out there and in extreme situations I would prioritize those who contribute to society over those who chose to flaunt the rules of society.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It means people who don't commit crimes.

Plenty of less affluent people are productive members of society. To suggest otherwise is comical.

You're the one that used the Randian language.

Why, then, limit it to people currently in jail? What about the person released yesterday? Is their life worth more because of an accident of the calendar?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Would I be OK with it? I would be sad. Would I understand it? Yes I would.

We all want to seem so altruistic and act like all lives are equal. The reality is there are POS people out there and in extreme situations I would prioritize those who contribute to society over those who chose to flaunt the rules of society.

My problem is the assumption that we're in that situation now. We aren't, and even if we were already rationing ventilators there are a lot of other care and sanitation options.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well you said we shouldn't be providing resources to it. I'm just pointing out that these aren't closed systems. If the virus runs rampant through a prison, workers and guests in that prison are going to get it and bring it back to their communities.

For one most prisons are closed to guests. For another I think it was implied I meant prisoners. I would be all for guards to be given PPE.

the reality is we only have so many resources and if we find ourselves in extreme situations do we really want to dedicate those resources to the worst of our society?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You're the one that used the Randian language.

Why, then, limit it to people currently in jail? What about the person released yesterday? Is their life worth more because of an accident of the calendar?

They served their time.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Would I be OK with it? I would be sad. Would I understand it? Yes I would.

We all want to seem so altruistic and act like all lives are equal. The reality is there are POS people out there and in extreme situations I would prioritize those who contribute to society over those who chose to flaunt the rules of society.

I can respect your point of view - but I just feel like it's a massively slippery slope. Your mom could have made terrible life choices that contributed to her being at risk, contracted the virus by flaunting a shelter in place order and could be prioritized over a pillar of the community that was falsely convicted or made one poor decision in their life. There are definitely bad people in prison I wouldn't feel bad about if they died in agony tomorrow but how you apply these kind of moral rules across large scale populations - I feel a lot better being on the other side of the argument.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My problem is the assumption that we're in that situation now. We aren't, and even if we were already rationing ventilators there are a lot of other care and sanitation options.

I am all for those options.

What I am not for is when and if we have to take extreme measures diverting resources to prisoners.

Listen, I am not a callous person. I don't want to see anyone die like a caged animal, but if we have to triage patients in ERs we certainly need to do it on a broader scale.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I can respect your point of view - but I just feel like it's a massively slippery slope. Your mom could have made terrible life choices that contributed to her being at risk, contracted the virus by flaunting a shelter in place order and could be prioritized over a pillar of the community that was falsely convicted or made one poor decision in their life. There are definitely bad people in prison I wouldn't feel bad about if they died in agony tomorrow but how you apply these kind of moral rules across large scale populations - I feel a lot better being on the other side of the argument.

Just be aware then that the other side includes all those bad people.

we all want to feel good about ourselves, but when push comes to shove and there are limited resources something has to determine who has access to them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

For one most prisons are closed to guests. For another I think it was implied I meant prisoners. I would be all for guards to be given PPE.

the reality is we only have so many resources and if we find ourselves in extreme situations do we really want to dedicate those resources to the worst of our society?

There are more than just guards entering prisons. Plenty of other workers do too.

But since we are rationing supplies based on value, why would prison guards get them? Seems a health care worker or grocery store employee should be considered much more valuable in this situation.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Just be aware then that the other side includes all those bad people.

we all want to feel good about ourselves, but when push comes to shove and there are limited resources something has to determine who has access to them.

Lots of bad people out walking the streets as well. Real life isn't cut and dried like that.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are more than just guards entering prisons. Plenty of other workers do too.

But since we are rationing supplies based on value, why would prison guards get them? Seems a health care worker or grocery store employee should be considered much more valuable in this situation.

you act like doctors can even get them at this point

[Lathum]

again. Would love to hear anyones solution or should we all just circle jerk about the poor inmates to make ourselves feel like good humanitarians?

[Brian Swartz]

This thread is going to get real ugly before this is over. It won't be a month until we're desperately wishing we were where we are now. I hope we're able to keep it civil (not aimed at anyone who has posted recently, just the nature of such difficult issues).

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

This thread is going to get real ugly before this is over. It won't be a month until we're desperately wishing we were where we are now. I hope we're able to keep it civil (not aimed at anyone who has posted recently, just the nature of such difficult issues).

I was texting with a friend today basically saying my worst fear is that three weeks from now we are going to look back at where we were today and realize how silly we were for thinking things were bad.

[Arles]

One thing to remember with jails is a bunch of new people come in every day (upwards of 300+ a day). So, if a guy comes into jail with the virus, it could take off. And many people in jail (not prison mind you) are there for minor drug offenses.

[Arles]

I think it’s pretty prevalent now and we haven’t seen massive death numbers. I expect some areas with older people will have pretty stressed ICUs, but I can’t really see the total death rate being more than 0.7-1.0% by the time we get the full numbers. It’s still bad, but I think people looking to Italy as a preview for the US are going to be way off.

[RainMaker]

The fatality rates in Germany have been shockingly low. Not sure if it's because they are handling it differently or because they are testing so many people. But it does give some hope that this virus doesn't have to be as deadly.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

[molson]

One thing to keep in mind is that prisoners, unlike private citizens, have a SCOTUS-recognized constitutional right to government health care. The healthcare system could collapse, but the government still has a constitutional duty to take care of prisoners - they have no such duty to take care of private citizens.

And it's pretty easy to quarantine someone in prison. Governments can only wish they had the information on movements and contacts that they have on every prisoner when trying to trace the progression of an illness. A prison could get really unlucky, but, I don't think a prison environment is necessarily a disaster.

Jail is a different story and conditions vary widely. Depending on the jail and the location and the law in the state, I could definitely see jails or courts just releasing everybody and waving bond to anyone coming in on new charges. They should probably be doing that already. Everybody there is either serving time on misdemeanors, or haven't been convicted of anything yet. The people in the latter group who pose a severe threat to the safety of society can still be housed in a prison or less-crowded and more secure and emptied jail facility, or hospital. But jails shouldn't be operating as normal, that'd be way too dangerous right now. I imagine that's already happening to some degree at the micro level - cases being delayed or judges not imposing bond on cases they normally would.

(Plus once someone is released, even from jail, and even pretrial detainees - the government is no longer responsible for their healthcare. That's a little cynical and I don't think that's a direct motive of anything usually, but, it may end up being a factor here if resources are strained.).

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Arles

I expect some areas with older people will have pretty stressed ICUs, but I can’t really see the total death rate being more than 0.7-1.0% by the time we get the full numbers. It’s still bad, but I think people looking to Italy as a preview for the US are going to be way off.

I can meet you halfway on this. I think so far the data does indicate you are right on the direct death rate from the coronavirus. At the same time, Italy's rate wouldn't be what it is as far as I can tell if their system could handle the amount of patients they are getting (though it'd still be a lot higher than ours). I think the shortages are what's going to cause ours to go up significantly.

Definitely grateful that Italy appears to be an outlier in terms of the mortality issue so far, but I'm not sure that's even half the battle here when compared to the indirect/shortages-related casualties.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

That is hilarious. Had to look it up.

The real story behind Mister Rogers' joyful flipping of the bird / Boing Boing

For many years, rumors have gone around that Fred McFeely Rogers (Mr. Rogers) flipped kids off on his tv show.
The truth is, he did…inadvertently.

He was singing “Where is Thumbkin” with children and, when he got to Tall-Man, he proudly displayed his middle fingers…because that’s how the song played out.

Oh, and McFeely (Mr. McFeely was the “Speedy Delivery” guy) was Rogers’ middle name.

[Edward64]

FWIW, re: prisons.

When appropriate for a city/state, non-violent prisoners should be released in tranches with the expectation they'll serve out their term when things stabilize. Non-violent drug offenses, tax fraud etc. Let them out. Others should stay in prison, this includes but not limited to people convicted of murder; spousal, sex, child etc. abuse; crimes where arms are used etc. I'm not sure non-violent is the exact criteria and there will be some grey areas but you get the idea.

Those remaining are the immediate threats and they get to stay in jail. And yeah, they will get lesser health services than the general population.

Re: ventilators, if we do think the health system will be overwhelmed, absolutely there will be choices to be made. I am going to assume that public hospitals will get first pick of ventilators, drugs etc. vs prison hospitals and I'm okay with that.

Re: prison guards ... I don't get the whatabout prison guards. They get treated just like the general population, why wouldn't they?

Re: improving and sanitizing prisons more. Absolutely.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Arles

I think it’s pretty prevalent now and we haven’t seen massive death numbers. I expect some areas with older people will have pretty stressed ICUs, but I can’t really see the total death rate being more than 0.7-1.0% by the time we get the full numbers. It’s still bad, but I think people looking to Italy as a preview for the US are going to be way off.

I kinda agree with you. It's been out there for 2-4-6 weeks now, why hasn't there been more deaths? and that does give me some optimism.

However, it just may be that deaths are delayed and takes 4-6-8 weeks to occur. It may also be that once/if the health system is overwhelmed, deaths will spike.

The CDC nos. (admittedly outdated by now) say low-high range for ICU and Deaths are 6.7 to 14.9%. The problem is we do not have a good estimate of total infected.

Test kits and testing are ramping up (for real this time). I think we'll know more about how good-bad shape the US is in less than 2 weeks.

[Edward64]

Article on US citizens stuck in foreign countries (and there was another on cruise ships).

I get in normal times we would do this for a foreign country in strife but is it the US responsibility to get you out of a non-violent foreign country during a worldwide zombie apocalypse? There are about 38M that travel abroad in 2019. To approximate, divide it by 26 so at any 2-week period there could be 1.4M citizens running around (let's say 700K to 1.4M). The US should help with communicating with family, help with money, medicine, and accommodations, but essentially shelter-in-place as best you can.

For those stuck on cruise ships now, I'm thinking you heard about the other cruise line fiasco in late Feb and you still chose to get on a cruise ship? That's on you.

Thousands of Americans stranded abroad as money, patience run out

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am all for those options.

What I am not for is when and if we have to take extreme measures diverting resources to prisoners.

Listen, I am not a callous person. I don't want to see anyone die like a caged animal, but if we have to triage patients in ERs we certainly need to do it on a broader scale.

That's a much different stance than your earlier statement that we should take away resources from prisons.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Lots of bad people out walking the streets as well. Real life isn't cut and dried like that.

And we have ample proof of arrest and sentencing disparities between whites and people of color. As you say, the slippery slope is enormous once you start assessing the objective worth of individual lives.

[Flasch186]

I have a problem with the idea of for-profit prisons the same way I feel like some business (non-essential) are truly fiscally irresponsible during the high times and then need bailouts during the lows. I'm not saying I'm wholly against bailouts for the greater good but I find the irony of being uber-capitalist when it is an income redistribution one way and the minute things go south we're high on socialism redistribution.

FWIW I'm against private prisons period.

[whomario]

Re: People stuck abroad:

Where exactly are they supposed to shelter ? Countries want to shut down hotels and touristic infrastructure. And why should locals be assume the risk of Catering to their needs when their country of origin can damn well afford to do it ? Public infrastructure is shutting down, which means everybody without a firm 'private Infrastructure' is vulnerable.

You can't refuse to tell people it is serious and then expect them to not go or somehow wave their right to expect their country to help them return. Not to mention a lot of those stuck will not be tourists per se but abroad for work or study as well. Or will have started their vacation 3,4 weeks ago and now have already been stuck for 1,2 already.

2 (!) weeks ago, which is a perfectly plausible time of vacation, it was still deemed ok to have athletes play in front of thousands of people, in the US as well as almost everywhere else.

This whole "well, this is your own fault, fix it yourself" is part of the same thought process why the US us fucked as far as the health care system and social security is concerned. With the USs ressources and success elsewhere it is a joke that it clings to this idea that somehow the country would be worse off if it lends a hand to people in need to the degree almost every other semi-comparable country manages to. Rather than kicking them and telling them it is their fault they don't have money/insurance/jobs/a way to get home.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And we have ample proof of arrest and sentencing disparities between whites and people of color. As you say, the slippery slope is enormous once you start assessing the objective worth of individual lives.

I total agree we have major disparities, but that is a totally different conversation.

As for assessing the worth of individual lives, isn't that what part of triage is and could start happening here?

I apologize for coming across abrasive last night, and I get that my stance is unpopular, but I think it is something that will potentially have to be addressed in the coming weeks. I don't think just throwing our hands up and saying generic lines about morality accomplishes anything more than making people feel good. It doesn't solve the problem.

[Icy]

I don't believe infections and mortality rates at all, nor in Spain where I live nor anywhere in the world.

Just a sample, one of my employees, (we have been working remote from home 2 weeks already) 38 years old female felt bad yesterday, high fever, pain in the chest, cough, hard to breathe. Called the emergency number for coronavirus, she answered some questions and they said yes, probably you have it but you are young and have no other issues, so stay at home (with your husband and 5 years old kid) , take paracetamol to lower the fever, and if you feel really really bad, come to the hospital.

She won't count in the infected numbers as she has not been tested, so the number of infections is probably much higher than the 25k we have in Spain, but also the mortality rate is lower than calculated as it's deaths/infected.

Regarding low mortality in Germay for sure it's weird and good news, but maybe they are testing a lot of people, so the ratio of death/infected is obviously low.

Now in USA, if only a few people is tested like in Spain because lack of testers, or because their inmune system is strong so they think they have just the common flu or cold or unlike in Spain (where btw everything is going to public health as insurance companies had a pandemia clause) because lack of public health so you our your insurance need to pay for it, then the numbers and infections/habitant rate is still low, but be aware, it will come to USA as well and will hit you as hard as the other countries because that people has not tested positive doesn't mean they aren't infected.

We in Spain reacted 2 weeks later due to incompetent leaders, when we had the China and Italy examples, and we are going to suffer more than them, also because we are way less disciplined than chinesse regarding the home cuarantine. People think they are so smart because they walk 5 miles with bread under their arm in case the police stop them so they can say they went out shopping. Hope Darwin laws wipe all the stupids out, sadly they don't just get sick themselves.

I hope I'm wrong but it's going to be even worse in USA or UK where more time is being lost due to overconfidence from the leaders or because every nation is flat out lying the whole world to show they can handle the crisis and their lack of prevention meassures thinknig it was just the other nations less prepared for it.

[Edward64]

Of interest to fellow Georgians ...

Mar 10 - Fulton schools closed
Mar 12 - 31 cases, 1 death
Mar 22 - 555 cases, 20 deaths

Also, not sure we can read too much into the 15.3% below.

EVENING UPDATE: 555 coronavirus cases confirmed in Georgia; 20 deaths

A total of 3,616 people have been tested for COVID-19 in the state, meaning about 15.3% of those tests came back positive for the highly contagious virus.

More stats:

COVID-19 Daily Status Report | Georgia Department of Public Health

• M-F is roughly equal
• Age wise they have a breakdown but used 18-59 as one scale. Cynical me thinks they are trying to hide that younger people catch it less or more mild than older folks.
• Fulton has largest # cases by far at 99.

[Icy]

Dola, I just read this in the CNN regarding USA, that supports what I wrote avobe about people not being tested so not counting as infected as it's happening in every country except maybe Germany and Soth Korea (also with lower mortality rate).

"(CNN)As the coronavirus pandemic grows and more states order residents to stay home, officials are making a tough choice to only test high-risk patients and those who are severely ill.

The number of coronavirus deaths has surged to 326 in the United States as the virus tightens its grip, leading to fears of a widespread shortage of medical supplies.

Officials in hard-hit states such as New York and California are warning that panicked people are flooding hospitals for tests and health care facilities will run out of crucial items. The focus has shifted to avoiding broad testing to conserve rapidly dwindling resources such as masks, ventilators and intensive care beds.
Authorities are recommending that health care providers avoid testing patients except in cases in which results would significantly change the course of treatment.
New York health officials issued guidance asking medical facilities to stop testing non-hospitalized patients in an effort to preserve medical supplies."

[Lathum]

This was the security line from Atlanta airport this morning. ��

�� @MPetchenikWSB pic.twitter.com/qD43VIivi6

— Everything Georgia (@GAFollowers) March 21, 2020

[NobodyHere]

I think GameStop may become a casualty of the virus

https://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/g...closes-stores/

[albionmoonlight]

I just don't get it.

We've shut down schools across the country--so there is a sense of what a big deal this is.

But we are still allowing non-essential air travel?

I just don't get the priorities here.

Either it isn't a big deal, in which case we should be living our lives normally.

Or it is a big deal, in which case you shouldn't have 10,000 people in a security line at ATL.

We seem to be doing the worst of all worlds here. Massively disrupting schools and destroying small businesses but not actually containing the problem.

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This was the security line from Atlanta airport this morning. ��

�� @MPetchenikWSB pic.twitter.com/qD43VIivi6

— Everything Georgia (@GAFollowers) March 21, 2020

I just got back from Mexico last Sat and went through Atlanta. There was no line and one of the workers said it was dead compared to normal. Glad I got back when I did.

[Lathum]

I'm struggling to think of one excuse why I would travel now. I guess the death of a very close loved one?

I suppose some are returning from trips, but I would think at this point most of those have cycled through already.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Article on US citizens stuck in foreign countries (and there was another on cruise ships).

I get in normal times we would do this for a foreign country in strife but is it the US responsibility to get you out of a non-violent foreign country during a worldwide zombie apocalypse? There are about 38M that travel abroad in 2019. To approximate, divide it by 26 so at any 2-week period there could be 1.4M citizens running around (let's say 700K to 1.4M). The US should help with communicating with family, help with money, medicine, and accommodations, but essentially shelter-in-place as best you can.

For those stuck on cruise ships now, I'm thinking you heard about the other cruise line fiasco in late Feb and you still chose to get on a cruise ship? That's on you.

Thousands of Americans stranded abroad as money, patience run out

As with a number of things that have pooped up in the last two weeks, it is a matter of how much of our collective rhetoric do we actually believe in and where that line is as to when that rhetoric is no longer applicable. A number of absolutes that sound wonderful in a political pep rally (both sides) are proving not to be so absolute.

As I type this, I am remembering the thread we had on here about the prioritizing of the amendments in the Bill of Rights or which rights were most important to us. It would be interesting to see where everyone stood now that we are in a crisis.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I think GameStop may become a casualty of the virus

Nonessential retailer GameStop closes nationwide after Pennsylvania license suspension

Weren't they already close to going out of business?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

A number of absolutes that sound wonderful in a political pep rally (both sides) are proving not to be so absolute.

What "collective rhetoric" or "absolutes" at a pep rally are you referring to?

As I type this, I am remembering the thread we had on here about the prioritizing of the amendments in the Bill of Rights or which rights were most important to us. It would be interesting to see where everyone stood now that we are in a crisis.

I actually don't remember this thread, assume it happened after 9/11.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm struggling to think of one excuse why I would travel now. I guess the death of a very close loved one?

I suppose some are returning from trips, but I would think at this point most of those have cycled through already.

At this point, the choice should be out of the hands of the ordinary consumer. The government should restrict air travel to essential purposes.

We are past the point of Kayleigh thinking really hard about it and deciding that flying to Addison's 25th birthday bash is worth it. But don't worry because she'll wash her hands a lot.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm struggling to think of one excuse why I would travel now. I guess the death of a very close loved one?

I suppose some are returning from trips, but I would think at this point most of those have cycled through already.

If you are young and believe you are invulnerable, it was Spring Break last week. Chance to strut your stuff and get laid?

It was only 2 Wed ago when Trump gave his "I can't read" speech. I can see not wanting to have a nation-wide stay-at-home then because it hadn't sunk in and would have panicked the nation.

I do think it is time to have the nation-wide stay-at-home for 2 weeks with some exception for "essential" services and people. Trump, are you listening?