OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[sabotai]

The High Sparrow mentioned people getting the "Mother's Mercy" when talking about people who confess. The title could be about Cersei's stroll through the city.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Damn, hopes dashed.

[stevew]

Why doesn't the high sparrow have a star? Is that only for the nobility people?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I never even thought of Jorah as Quentyn, but that's brilliant.

I never even contemplated it until that greyscale scene. But if I've learned one thing from these show runners, it's that if they show something (like Bronn getting scratched) it will matter. For Wire fans, there's no Rawls hanging out in a gay bar type moments that are never referred to again.

Flere - Bran? I think everyone assumes Jon isn't dead, but I thought the Warging into his direwolf theory was the popular one - why else have those chapters with the wargs?

[Grover]

Originally Posted by stevew

Why doesn't the high sparrow have a star? Is that only for the nobility people?

I think it's a right of passage for the followers and militia?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I never even contemplated it until that greyscale scene. But if I've learned one thing from these show runners, it's that if they show something (like Bronn getting scratched) it will matter. For Wire fans, there's no Rawls hanging out in a gay bar type moments that are never referred to again.

Flere - Bran? I think everyone assumes Jon isn't dead, but I thought the Warging into his direwolf theory was the popular one - why else have those chapters with the wargs?

I actually had long thought that Melisandre was gonna wind up rezzing Jon.

[ISiddiqui]

Though with Mel going South with Stannis, she's not going to be there when Jon gets stabbed.

[ISiddiqui]

So Valyrian Steel can kill an Other... that's new.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So Valyrian Steel can kill an Other... that's new.

Not necessarily. It's been awhile, but I recall it being mentioned in the books as working similar to dragonglass.

[sabotai]

In a Feast For Crows, Sam reads about dragonsteel when researching ways to combat the Others, which he and Jon Snow think could be Valyrian steel (and it seems the show just confirmed that).

Valyrian steel - A Wiki of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones

[Simbo Klice]

There's actually a clue in the very first prologue- before the Other engages Waymar Royce he takes a careful glance at his blade.

[ISiddiqui]

At the very least, it was speculated, but never confirmed until now.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Simbo Klice

There's actually a clue in the very first prologue- before the Other engages Waymar Royce he takes a careful glance at his blade.

That's cool - I just reread that passage right now. Damn, no wonder it takes so long to write these books, there is a ton of foreshadowing involved.

[Chief Rum]

I can't wait for next week's episode.

[saldana]

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by saldana

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

I was disappointed to see that the White Walker army is a bunch of skeleton warriors/zombies. I thought they would all be the white dudes with blue eyes.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I was disappointed to see that the White Walker army is a bunch of skeleton warriors/zombies. I thought they would all be the white dudes with blue eyes.

No. The White Walkers themselves have always been the minority in terms of the army. The bulk of the army itself are the undead.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by saldana

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

Perhaps? I thought it was fantastic. Some are calling it the best episode ever. The battle scene was breathtaking. It was magnificently shot. There were a ton of great, heroic moments. The giant, the wildling woman, the Thenn.

The White Walkers and their undead zombie/skeleton army have always sort of been the main threat. We just have never really seen them in action until now.

[sabotai]

I liked the battle scene, but the part with the zombie children was really cheesy.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The White Walkers and their undead zombie/skeleton army have always sort of been the main threat. We just have never really seen them in action until now.

i guess i need to go back and re-read the books then...i dont remember an undead army like that existing in the books.

[ISiddiqui]

Them being a massive threat and actually seeing the army don't necessarily follow from each other. I think though it seems to be obvious that the main battle will be against the Others and their wights.

In addition, in the books as Jon gets stabbed, he has sent Tormund to Hardhome to bring those Wildlings back - so we likely have been spoiled as to something that will be written out in Winds of Winter.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by saldana

i guess i need to go back and re-read the books then...i dont remember an undead army like that existing in the books.

Battle of the Fist of the First Men - Game of Thrones Wiki

Samwell hides behind a rock because he is unable to catch up to the other boys. An army of undead wights marches beside him, heading towards the Fist of the First Men.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Flere - Bran? I think everyone assumes Jon isn't dead, but I thought the Warging into his direwolf theory was the popular one - why else have those chapters with the wargs?

I was talking about the show, tbh. My speculation Jon would die in episode 8 was clearly wrong, but I'm still pretty confident he'll die in some way this season, and then not "re-appear" until next season. The question is how?

One option is that he's stabbed, but not killed (could hold true for book or show). So there's a dramatic scene, and then we have to wait (shorter wait for show watchers!) to find out that he lives.

One option is revival via Melisandre, as people have mentioned, but in both the book and the show she appears to be too far away.

The warging option is another one, but seems better supported in the book than in the show, where references to warging outside of Bran (who's clearly more special than that) are pretty oblique. But then again the show could visually show Jon warging into Ghost and thus explain the whole thing much quicker/easier than the written word. Strength of the medium and all that.

Anyway, all your guesses are as good as mine. Except that one about Jorah being BBQed. I'm sticking by that one.

[sabotai]

I thought that Melisandre was still at Castle Black in the books when Jon got stabbed.

[ISiddiqui]

She is. She stays behind while Stannis marches because she sees something in Jon Snow. Also, Shireen and Queen Selyse are back at Dragonstone in the books.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Anyway, all your guesses are as good as mine. Except that one about Jorah being BBQed. I'm sticking by that one.

I'd bet on it at this point. It's going to happen next week (considering what the title of the episode is) and there's no one else around to release the dragons, and no reason to keep him around after so up in flames he's gonna go.

I also think we don't see the battle of Winterfell this season. I think Brianne will get Reek and Sansa out of Winterfell before the battle happens and something will cause Melisandre to head back to Castle Black just in time to see Jon get stabbed by Olly. And we'll definitely know that will happen is we get the scene between Melisandre and Thoros with Beric Dondarrion during the "Previously on Game of Thrones..." part. (Wouldn't be surprised if Mel rezzing Jon is the very last scene of the season).

Hardhome was this episode, the dragons get release next episode and Cercei's naked mile will be in the final episode. I'm thinking the writers are going to save the battle of Winterfell (if it even happens) for early next season. They might even just bypass the battle all together and just have Brianne (or Sansa, or Reek) kill Ramsay (and maybe Roose) when she saves Sansa, negating the need for the battle.

[ISiddiqui]

Well according to the description for Ep 10, "Stannis Marches" is part of it. So if they save the battle, they do seem to intend to have one at some point.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by saldana

what the hell was that...when did Game of Thrones become The Walking Dead. am i the only one that thought that was horrible?

Walking Dead? More like Evil Dead - I kept wondering when Bruce Campbell and his boomstick were showing up! I always thought the undead would be slower, but I've come around a little and it definitely makes for a different threat level than Walking Dead-esque shambling zombies. The complete unwillingness of them to even enter the water made things a little absurd - I get that the water is cold, but you didn't even need to get in a boat, just swim out to the boats or even just wade 2 feet in haha.

[JeeberD]

Can skeletons swim? They don't have any parts that would float. The fresher wights though, yes.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Can skeletons swim? They don't have any parts that would float. The fresher wights though, yes.

I just had the dumb assumption that the WW army was just waiting for the water to freeze to ice.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I was kind of hoping the head dude would go path of frost status and just start walking on the Ocean as it started freezing under his feet.

[Atocep]

So it just me or are the Unsullied in the show a slight step up from stormtroopers?

[ISiddiqui]

Basically.

Also I really hate the show for what its done to Stannis.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Basically.

Also I really hate the show for what its done to Stannis.

Of course you do. You're a Stannis fan boy.

(FTR, I too think Stannis has much more subtle quality in the books than he is given credit for in the show...)

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, I am totally on board on the Stannis fan club.

But also... it seems completely out of character. Who kills their heir?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes, I am totally on board on the Stannis fan club.

But also... it seems completely out of character. Who kills their heir?

Stannis!

Seriously, though, as that Youtube video suggested, it appears that George was the source on that one so we might be seeing some WOW material there.

As for his heir, best guesses...

1. He thinks as Azor Ahai, he will live forever (or be resurrected forever)
2. He'll get one on with his red priestess and then name the resulting child a Baratheon instead of a Storm.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, but Shireen is at Castle Black with Selyse and Melissandre. I can see the burning, but I'm thinking Stannis doesn't come up with the idea himself and send a raven to Castle Black going "burn the girl". I'm guessing the idea originates with a person who likes burning things.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes, I am totally on board on the Stannis fan club.

But also... it seems completely out of character. Who kills their heir?

I've been puzzled by this too.

Melissandre calling for another of royal blood over and over again. She's obviously the one to blame here. The Bolton raid absolutely forced Stannis' hand into doing it.

I really hope we get to see Ramsay taken out by a shadow knight. That would be excellent.

[Neon_Chaos]

Episode 10 of the TV show is Mother's Mercy.

If Stoneheart shows up, I will be ecstatic.

[flere-imsaho]

In the book, Stannis' situation seems even more dire than as portrayed in the show, so I could see him resorting to extreme measures. But I kind of suspect the show next week will show something pretty significant resulting from the sacrifice, so the point of the magic will be explained.

IMO, the show is doing a good job portraying the Unsullied. They are battlefield soldiers, trained to be anonymous, interlocking elements of a whole. As a result, they have little to no "individual fighting" training, and are completely out of their element being city guards.

The problem is that this concept, based on historical units, is not well understood by most show watchers.

Plus, the fight in the arena was pure "one guy at a time!" trope-ism. Which didn't help.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Episode 10 of the TV show is Mother's Mercy.

If Stoneheart shows up, I will be ecstatic.

Nah, we'll get...some Walking, some Stabbing, some Gifting, and whatever the fuck Stannis is gonna do.

[NobodyHere]

Fuck. I really want to be an tin foil hat guy.
But I have actual college things to do.
Sorry Guys.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

IMO, the show is doing a good job portraying the Unsullied. They are battlefield soldiers, trained to be anonymous, interlocking elements of a whole. As a result, they have little to no "individual fighting" training, and are completely out of their element being city guards.

The problem is that this concept, based on historical units, is not well understood by most show watchers.

Plus, the fight in the arena was pure "one guy at a time!" trope-ism. Which didn't help.

From what we know of the harpies, it's not like they're fighting against a group trained in guerrilla tactics. The unsullied are trained as light infantry fighters that excel in phalanx formation with sword and spear but also have close quarters training with shortswords.

The arena fight was a good chance for the unsullied to shine based on their training. They didn't. The fight where Selmy died was also a fight that portrayed them as a little more than stormtroopers when they should have been much more effective.

Yes, they should fail spectacularly as city guards but in the 2 encounters where their training should have been useful they were nothing more than fodder.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

From what we know of the harpies, it's not like they're fighting against a group trained in guerrilla tactics. The unsullied are trained as light infantry fighters that excel in phalanx formation with sword and spear but also have close quarters training with shortswords.

The arena fight was a good chance for the unsullied to shine based on their training. They didn't. The fight where Selmy died was also a fight that portrayed them as a little more than stormtroopers when they should have been much more effective.

Yes, they should fail spectacularly as city guards but in the 2 encounters where their training should have been useful they were nothing more than fodder.

They're not carrying short swords are they?

I mean, I kinda buy into your thinking but the two situations you throw out don't really apply to your logic. In the hallway with Ser Barristan, they were in tight quarters and massively outnumbered. In the arena, there were too few of them to form a phalanx of any sort, and again they were massively outnumbered (and protecting the queen and her closest advisers). In both cases, they don't have short swords but the longer battle swords.

I entirely see issues with them performing well in either situation, given what we know about them and their history as fighters.

I have issues with the decisions to use the Unsullied as city guards and to bring so few to the first fighting pits games, but I don't find their performance as fighters in those two situations as logically inconsistent.

[ISiddiqui]

Anyways, I've taken up re-reading the books again. I paused after Storm of Swords to read some sci-fi ("Station Eleven" - a great book that I recommend very much) and now am back. It's A Feast for Crows time! And it's also a far, far, far better book than I remembered it.

I always took the position that FFC suffered due to A) the absurdly long wait for it, and B) the fact that its a slowing down of the narrative to look at the aftermath of war rather than moment after moment. I agree with both of these sentiments even more, but I also will add that I think some people got bored of the book due to two further factors (I'll continue my lettering): C) the chapters are much longer than the chapters in any other books - what I mean is that they are perhaps twice the size of the chapters in the other books and the reason is, D) The chapters are far more introspective.

What I'm really, really enjoying about FFC is not only does it show what a waste the land has become (and Septon Meribald's speech in one of Brienne's chapters of why broken men deserve pity as well as wariness is as masterful an anti-war speech I may have read in any book), but also it plums far more into the minds of its POV characters as they figure out how they fit into this new world. They knew how to fit into the pre-War world and they knew how to fit into the War world. But the post-War world, they are struggling to find themselves.

In a couple words: Character Development!! I think there is quite a bit more character development than in other epic fantasy and far more than in any of the other books so far. Brienne and Jaime both are struggling but moving forward in new, unfamiliar roles, and it's fascinating to read.

Similar (but not as pronounced) can apply to the situations of Sam and Arya who are in very new and different situations (both in Braavos!) that they find difficult to navigate and understand.

Then you add in the first POV chapters of Cersei, which show her to be even more paranoid and fearful as previous assumed. Ignoring good advice by Jaime (who shows he was indeed listening to his father at times) in order to staff her "smallest council" with yes people. Almost Nixonian in her paranoia and the writing is on the wall very, very early in the book as she tries to wage a clumsy war against the beloved Tyrells. And some of the 'news from Essos' she ignores, as Qyburn tries to tell her is even more hilarious after you've read Dance with Dragons and realize that this seemingly random stuff is actually quite major (she ignores the Golden Company breaking its contract for one).

And, as I've mentioned, I really enjoy both Dorne and the Iron Islands for how different their societies are compared to the rest of Westeros. I find it sad that they changed Dorne so much in the show. The book plot of Dorne was so action laden and fun - especially the part of Arianne trying to smuggle Myrcella away to Western Dorne with the help of Kingsguard Arys Oakheart and the Darkstar, two potentially fantastic casting coups (and really Arys would only need to be around for like 4 eps).

[Grover]

Completely unrelated to ASOIF, I recently read Station Eleven as well. Loved it.

[ISiddiqui]

So, the first time I read the chapter on Brienne on the Quiet Isle, I think I was rushing through, looking for action (ie, the exact wrong way to read the, as I now think of it, brilliant A Feast for Crows). So I missed what was there in plain sight. Only later, reading about the book and looking for discussions on the book did I come across the notion that the gravedigger was... the Hound (#Cleganebowl2016).

Reading it again, slower and for what it is, it pops out at you. The gravedigger is bigger than Brienne, he's limping badly, and stops to pet Septon Meribald's dog (kind of on the nose, GRRM... but then again, I missed it first time out). Then the Elder Brother seemingly knows way too much about the Sandor and Arya and while he does mention "the man is dead" he also pauses and says "he's at rest" when Brienne exclaims "Sandor Clegane is dead?". And the Elder Brother talks about his tale, which involves him saying that he died on the Trident to be basically reborn as a Brother of Quiet Isle. In the same way, it appears The Hound has died, but Sandor Clegane has been reborn.


In addition, I'm more and more impressed with the Cersei chapters. Most POV characters are kind of similar in their look at the world (for the most part - Brienne is more guarded), but Cersei is FAR different than anyone else. Her POV chapters are extremely paranoid and in that paranoia she makes bad decision after bad decision while thinking she's winning (it's only after we know what's coming that we realize just HOW bad her decision making has been). It's incredibly fascinating.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So, the first time I read the chapter on Brienne on the Quiet Isle, I think I was rushing through, looking for action (ie, the exact wrong way to read the, as I now think of it, brilliant A Feast for Crows). So I missed what was there in plain sight. Only later, reading about the book and looking for discussions on the book did I come across the notion that the gravedigger was... the Hound (#Cleganebowl2016).

Reading it again, slower and for what it is, it pops out at you. The gravedigger is bigger than Brienne, he's limping badly, and stops to pet Septon Meribald's dog (kind of on the nose, GRRM... but then again, I missed it first time out). Then the Elder Brother seemingly knows way too much about the Sandor and Arya and while he does mention "the man is dead" he also pauses and says "he's at rest" when Brienne exclaims "Sandor Clegane is dead?". And the Elder Brother talks about his tale, which involves him saying that he died on the Trident to be basically reborn as a Brother of Quiet Isle. In the same way, it appears The Hound has died, but Sandor Clegane has been reborn.


In addition, I'm more and more impressed with the Cersei chapters. Most POV characters are kind of similar in their look at the world (for the most part - Brienne is more guarded), but Cersei is FAR different than anyone else. Her POV chapters are extremely paranoid and in that paranoia she makes bad decision after bad decision while thinking she's winning (it's only after we know what's coming that we realize just HOW bad her decision making has been). It's incredibly fascinating.

We were discussing the Hound thing and more almost nine and a half years ago now!

A Feast For Crows: **WARNING THERE BE MASSIVE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD!!** - Front Office Football Central

[ISiddiqui]

Yes... that was my point. I didn't notice it until I read discussions online.

[ISiddiqui]

This book is making me really, really dislike the show. There is SO much great stuff in A Feast for Crows. I just read the chapter where Jamie channels Tywin Lannister in ending the siege of Riverrun (without breaking his vow to Catelyn). I could just picture the potential scene chewing that could have been done when Jamie tells Edmure what would happen if Edmure didn't surrender the castle when he sent him back to Riverrun.

At the very least that would have been far better than the Dornish mistake in the last season of the show.

Also I had forgotten that Cersei actually did have a bit of circumstantial proof that Margaery was sleeping around. It wasn't just an Anne Boleyn like snowjob, but that Grand Maester Pycelle was actually providing her with Moon Tea (which is only used for one thing). So that was somewhat interesting. Of course Cersei is still insanely paranoid... its going to be fun to see how that goes into overdrive after she finds out that Kevan and Pycelle have been killed.