FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Dutch]

No, I'm only really saying that dealing with the DMV can be difficult and trying, but those difficulties do not outweigh my desire to register and vote. Not by a mile. I know you feel the same way. Some people just don't want to or care to vote. Some people want to make up for that by voting "early and often". I'm not a fan of either mindset. A little respect for the process is not disenfranchising anybody.

If there is a better way that meets the intent of all people's desires here, I'm all for it, but if you are suggesting that the only way you get what you want is to ignore what I want, then perhaps there is no middle ground. And in that case, I'm gonna side with logic...one citizen=one vote.

[JPhillips]

How does limiting registration hours, limiting poll workers speech, limiting early voting, etc. ensure one citizen=one vote?

I could be fine with voter ID if it was truly free and easy to get. Virginia's law is pretty unobjectionable. But as has been stated before, most of the voter ID laws also include other means of limiting access to registration and/or voting. That's where it seems like you're saying you are okay with making it more difficult to register and/or vote.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

limiting poll workers speech

Wait a sec, how did THAT get in here?

Let's think about that one for a second m'kay. You want unlimited speech for poll workers in uber-conservative precincts?

That's where it seems like you're saying you are okay with making it more difficult to register and/or vote.

He ain't saying it ... but I will.

Anybody that can't handle getting a ^#$%^$#% photo ID isn't remotely fit to cast a ballot. For dogcatcher. And the more of them that don't, the better of the country is / would be. The largest single donwfall of the nation has quite possibly been the expansion of voting "rights" beyond anything the founders intended. (we can argue the criteria, but every vote beyond a small percentage simply brings us to being governed by the lowest common denominator ... universal suffrage is utter insanity)

There. THAT is what is looks like when someone says it's perfectly okay to make it more difficult to register and/or vote.

[JPhillips]

I think we all know that you're an authoritarian. I wouldn't waste any time discussing this with you.

The speech I was talking about was in reference to Ohio, where poll workers were not allowed to tell people at the wrong precinct what was the correct precinct.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

How does limiting registration hours, limiting poll workers speech, limiting early voting, etc. ensure one citizen=one vote?

Sorry, one citizen=one vote is more for photo ID, which has been an ongoing part of the conversation here. Those issues you cite are a separate issue dealing with "roadblocks" to stop people from voting at all. I don't think I could agree with every regional decision made, haven't reviewed them all, but I am arguing that a Republican lawmaker can try all he/she wants, but he/she will fail at getting Democrats to the voting booth because registering to vote and voting are too easy to do. I fall under the same restrictions and have never had a problem.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I fall under the same restrictions and have never had a problem.

I've never been stranded in a car during a major snowstorm. Therefore, nobody needs to consider keeping a thermal blanket in their car in wintry climates and anybody who gets stranded is clearly just lazy because if *I* can avoid getting stranded, they should be able to as well.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Anybody that can't handle getting a ^#$%^$#% photo ID isn't remotely fit to cast a ballot.

Thank-you.
And I agree whole heartedly.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The largest single donwfall of the nation has quite possibly been the expansion of voting "rights" beyond anything the founders intended. (we can argue the criteria, but every vote beyond a small percentage simply brings us to being governed by the lowest common denominator ... universal suffrage is utter insanity)

And then you took it to the far extreme. Way beyond my beliefs. But thats what I expect and one of the reasons you are so beloved..consistency.

I think every age, race, gender and socio-economic class should have equal rights to vote. I also think each should be required to pass a basic competency test. There is a whole bunch of stupid votes both sides. There are just as many R who simply vote R "just because" as there are the converse.

And then you get the interesting situations. I have a good friend and former college claassmate who is a state rep. His Dad was a many many year state rep in the same district.

A few years ago Dad promoted and son stepped right into his spot and was elected in a landslide. Only then did I learn that Dad had served for decades as a D. And son likewise was a D. Ive literally known these guys 20+ years. Neither is close to a liberal. SO over a glass of bourbon one night I asked why. The precinct is 70+% african american (Both of these dudes are white as loaf bread. Old fashioned low country SC plantation "white folk") and a R is un-electable. So they are D...despite their ideology not exactly matching up. Some how that has never been an issue in 30+ years.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wait a sec, how did THAT get in here?

Let's think about that one for a second m'kay. You want unlimited speech for poll workers in uber-conservative precincts?



He ain't saying it ... but I will.

Anybody that can't handle getting a ^#$%^$#% photo ID isn't remotely fit to cast a ballot. For dogcatcher. And the more of them that don't, the better of the country is / would be. The largest single donwfall of the nation has quite possibly been the expansion of voting "rights" beyond anything the founders intended. (we can argue the criteria, but every vote beyond a small percentage simply brings us to being governed by the lowest common denominator ... universal suffrage is utter insanity)

There. THAT is what is looks like when someone says it's perfectly okay to make it more difficult to register and/or vote.

I've always been curious about this since a political science teacher brought it up 25 years ago. However, I have yet to see any real proof of undesirables (poor and/or minority) swaying elections - not without some other group greatly benefiting from it first (farmers, military, corporations, etc).

Unless you are saying that it's not the undesirables voting per se, but the willingness of politicians to pander to them for their own personal gain. For that I agree, because inherent to that is the need to keep "them" needy and dependent.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I've never been stranded in a car during a major snowstorm. Therefore, nobody needs to consider keeping a thermal blanket in their car in wintry climates and anybody who gets stranded is clearly just lazy because if *I* can avoid getting stranded, they should be able to as well.

My apologies for saying that, didn't mean to totally derail you with that one comment.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Dutch

My apologies for saying that, didn't mean to totally derail you with that one comment.

Are you this naturally obtuse, or do you have to work at it? You're saying that because something has never been a problem for YOU, that other people should just suck it up.

It's the same damn logic. I've never been stranded in a snowstorm, so nobody else has an excuse for getting stranded either. If they really want to be home for the holidays, they should just go and never mind the weather impedance.

[tarcone]

Hey! I have an idea. Split the DMV. One shop strictly for non-driver IDs and one for Plates and tags and one for drivers licenses.

This would make lines shorter and add tons of jobs. And add another layer of government.

This could be a win-win situation for the federal government.

[NobodyHere]

Don't you mean state governments?

[tarcone]

Im sure the feds could figure out how to get involved. They would probably have to fund it. Thus, creating a department to handle the division and oversee a smooth transition. Then the feds would have to make sure the regular photo ids used for voting were being processed correctly.

That would create thousands of government jobs.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Are you this naturally obtuse, or do you have to work at it? You're saying that because something has never been a problem for YOU, that other people should just suck it up.

It's the same damn logic. I've never been stranded in a snowstorm, so nobody else has an excuse for getting stranded either. If they really want to be home for the holidays, they should just go and never mind the weather impedance.

It's not like he's saying, I skydive, why can't everyone skydive. It's more like he's saying, I can boil water, why can't everyone boil water.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

It's not like he's saying, I skydive, why can't everyone skydive. It's more like he's saying, I can boil water, why can't everyone boil water.

That's more fair, I appreciate that. I also mentioned that me and about 4 million people in Los Angeles did it just fine, I guess they are all a bunch of mad wicked geniuses too.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Are you this naturally obtuse?

I'm naturally this obtuse AND I have a photo ID.

And not nearly as smart as some of ya'll, you boys sound like you could sell ice cream cones to eskimos.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Are you this naturally obtuse,

Son, you're forgetting yourself.


Warden Norton

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

It's the same damn logic. I've never been stranded in a snowstorm, so nobody else has an excuse for getting stranded either. If they really want to be home for the holidays, they should just go and never mind the weather impedance.

Being stranded in a snowstorm has nothing in common getting an ID.

What is it you would like done to make this easier than it is? We're talking about a process of filling out a form and standing in line for 30-45 minutes. I guess they may ask you to remove your hat for a photo but I'm optimistic we can handle that. This is something most of us did at 16 years old. With ease mind you.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cartman

Well, considering the DMV has a hard enough time processing people in a timely manner when just a few dozen are there, I'd hate to think what the waits would be if several hundred all showed up at the same time.

They don't have a hard time. National wait time is 34 minutes. Even states on the high end are under an hour. We're talking an hour once in your life. This really doesn't sound like it's asking much.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

The narrative has changd. Before it was lack of time but once I found them some time now the DMVs are overcrowded and Inefficient. Next when I ask why the Democrats like Barrack Obama nationally or Francis Slay locally don't make the DMVs more efficient it will be back to some George Bush thing or a cut and paste of a Huffington Post article about Texas voter ID laws.

None of their arguments are based in reality. They are flawed narratives that are spread around to make themselves feel better. They want to convince people that the country would be a liberal utopia if not for all the poor people and minorities who desperately want to vote but are being stopped from it. It's just an excuse for them as to why they lose elections.

And it goes the same way for the other side. They tried convincing themselves we'd be in a conservative paradise if the Black Panthers didn't stop all those patriotic voters from voting. Or ACORN didn't rig the election.

Elections are lost because they can't get enough people to give enough of a shit to go out and vote for their cause/candidate. Now getting people to give a shit and support you takes a lot of work. It's not glamorous to cold call people or go door-to-door. It's not fun helping people register to vote. Or giving them a ride to the polls on election day. What is easy is snapping some selfiest outside the Panera where you're "protesting" and posting them to your Facebook page for credibility. Or buying a $10 t-shirt with a phrase on it.

[Solecismic]

I missed the part where the Declaration of Independence was changed to read "life, liberty and the absence of inconvenience."

[larrymcg421]

I love it when people tell me what I think and why I think it.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I love it when people tell me what I think and why I think it.

You must be new here.

[Dutch]

BTW, I thought it was pretty nice that we all took a cease-fire for Christmas...

100 years ago, soldiers celebrated Christmas by temporarily calling off World War I - Vox

...in any event, I see the first shelling of the new dawn has started...commence firing, fire at will!!!

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Dutch

BTW, I thought it was pretty nice that we all took a cease-fire for Christmas...

100 years ago, soldiers celebrated Christmas by temporarily calling off World War I - Vox

...in any event, I see the first shelling of the new dawn has started...commence firing, fire at will!!!

As long as people don't believe the myth that a real soccer match broke out as shown in various motivational tools.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They don't have a hard time. National wait time is 34 minutes. Even states on the high end are under an hour. We're talking an hour once in your life. This really doesn't sound like it's asking much.

Yep, but that's not what was being talked about. It was instead of spending two hours protesting, why wouldn't it be a better spending of time to get all of those people registered to vote. My point was several hundred people all showing up to get an approved ID for voting at the same time instead of showing up to protest, that two hours wouldn't be near enough time for all of those folks to get processed. I'm amazed that people would think that they could.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Yep, but that's not what was being talked about. It was instead of spending two hours protesting, why wouldn't it be a better spending of time to get all of those people registered to vote. My point was several hundred people all showing up to get an approved ID for voting at the same time instead of showing up to protest, that two hours wouldn't be near enough time for all of those folks to get processed. I'm amazed that people would think that they could.

Why would everyone have to go at the same time, and why would anyone have to physically accompany them to the DMV?

And I think the original point was more that instead of, or in addition to, protesting, people who want change should do other, practical things that do more than just help them blow off steam. Like vote. A process which yes, has some unnecessary obstacles in a few places, but if you're motivated enough to protest, you should probably be motivated enough to obtain whatever documentation your jurisdiction requires.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

Why would everyone have to go at the same time, and why would anyone have to physically accompany them to the DMV?

Well, that's how I read this:

Originally Posted by panerd

Simple question... instead of a 2 hour march on the courthouse how about the "leaders" take these people (who don't have any time supposedly) to go get registered to vote and create some actual change?

[Dutch]

Fox News noted a WSJ article tonight based on info from the FBI investigation, so I checked it out. Pretty sad stuff.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bret-ste...ics-1425942834

Ferguson, Lies and Statistics
Here’s a story for the media: a community in which honest people are afraid to tell the truth.

And it confirms that eyewitnesses either lied to investigators or refused to be interviewed out of fear of local vigilantes.

“Witness 109 claimed to have witnessed the shooting, stated that it was justified, and repeatedly refused to give formal statements to law enforcement for fear of reprisal should the Canfield Drive neighborhood find out that his account corroborated Wilson.”

Witness 113 “gave an account that generally corroborated Wilson, but only after she was confronted with statements she initially made in an effort to avoid neighborhood backlash. . . . She explained to the FBI that ‘You’ve gotta live the life to know it,’ and stated that she feared offering an account contrary to the narrative reported by the media that Brown held his hands up in surrender.”

Now there’s a story for the media: A community in which honest people can’t tell the truth for fear of running afoul local thugs enforcing “the narrative reported by the media.” Or is that more of a story about the media?

[cuervo72]

Well the DOJ report wasn't a feel-good story either.

Department of Justice Ferguson Report Revealed — The Atlantic

Seems it's also pretty hard not to run afoul of local authorities.

[Dutch]

No, no, no...I still stand firm that the FPD needs reform. Like, they need more people from the community on the police force...for starters. But ignore the results of the FBI investigation if you want.

[RainMaker]

It sounds like Ferguson is a shithole.

[Dutch]

Well, I think that's obvious. The President himself stated that the people of Ferguson need to step up and take much more responsibility of their own community than rely on outsiders. I am completely on board with that sort of reform. I actually want Ferguson to do a 180 and show other communities in hell holes how its done. Take ownership and leadership of your town.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It sounds like Ferguson is a shithole.

Yes it is. It really wasn't doing anybody any favors with the constant use of St. Louis suburb in all the media stories like it wasn't a crime riden shithole but I guess it sounded more shocking when the outside world thought this was a shooting in some middle class community. Expecting a world class city government and police department is the more naive mindset in my opinion.

[lungs]

We had our own police shooting in Madison of an unarmed black kid this past weekend. Seems like everybody around here is doing a much, much better job of handling the situation than Ferguson.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by lungs

We had our own police shooting in Madison of an unarmed black kid this past weekend. Seems like everybody around here is doing a much, much better job of handling the situation than Ferguson.

Agreed. You can learn a lot from Ferguson on how *not* to handle this sort of tragedy.

[RainMaker]

Looks like more "peaceful" protests tonight.

[NobodyHere]

Oh FFS!!

Two officers shot outside Ferguson police department: newspaper

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This place is quickly becoming a war zone. Before long, these residents are going to wish they had the old police department back. There's going to be crack downs and they're not going to like it, but it's quickly looking like it's warranted.

They'll probably face a tax increase as well because they're going to need six figure salaries to convince anyone to come work in this police department.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This place is quickly becoming a war zone. Before long, these residents are going to wish they had the old police department back. There's going to be crack downs and they're not going to like it, but it's quickly looking like it's warranted.

They'll probably face a tax increase as well because they're going to need six figure salaries to convince anyone to come work in this police department.

Are we talking actually war zones like Fallujah or Tikret?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Oh FFS!!

Two officers shot outside Ferguson police department: newspaper

Even though it is likely only one person, actions like these completely undermine what these protests are trying to accomplish.

Next time cops show up at a protest with tear gas and in riot gear people will point to this incident as justification.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Are we talking actually war zones like Fallujah or Tikret?

At some level, yes. Although the tactics are different, this is a form of terrorism in the form of intimidation. They're clearly looking to intimidate the police force and anyone else coming into that area. They're also looking to suppress anyone who would tell the truth about certain incidents or 'rat' someone out. In both cases, they're a vast minority of the overall population, but they're definitely looking to implement some form of control or 'justice'.

[tarcone]

Ferguson isnt a shithole. Parts of it are. it has some seriously low income areas, but there are some middle class areas as well. The area of the protests and looting happened in about a 2 block area. but I have a friend whose wife's family live about 5 minutes from there, and they are middle class as they come.

Not saying that house values are astronomical, but it isnt East St. Louis either.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Ferguson isnt a shithole. Parts of it are. it has some seriously low income areas, but there are some middle class areas as well. The area of the protests and looting happened in about a 2 block area. but I have a friend whose wife's family live about 5 minutes from there, and they are middle class as they come.

Not saying that house values are astronomical, but it isnt East St. Louis either.

They're going to go to shit in a big hurry at this pace. I'm trying to find a person in the U.S. at this point who would think, "Ferguson, Missouri? Yeah, I'd move there." I don't care if there are reasonable parts of it. That place is totally tainted goods at this point and is going to go downhill. That's just the reality of the situation.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

They're going to go to shit in a big hurry at this pace. I'm trying to find a person in the U.S. at this point who would think, "Ferguson, Missouri? Yeah, I'd move there." I don't care if there are reasonable parts of it. That place is totally tainted goods at this point and is going to go downhill. That's just the reality of the situation.

It's done. For the next generation it'll have a stigma attached to it. A violent city that turned a piece of shit into a cult hero. A place that burned it's businesses down. Why would any respectable person want to live there anymore? Or open a business there?

[nol]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

They're going to go to shit in a big hurry at this pace. I'm trying to find a person in the U.S. at this point who would think, "Ferguson, Missouri? Yeah, I'd move there." I don't care if there are reasonable parts of it. That place is totally tainted goods at this point and is going to go downhill. That's just the reality of the situation.

I'm not sure which part of your myopia is funnier: thinking that people are especially psyched about moving to other parts of Missouri or that this decline is directly tied to Michael Brown or protests when St. Louis has been literally the textbook example of urban decay for 50+ years.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by nol

I'm not sure which part of your myopia is funnier: thinking that people are especially psyched about moving to other parts of Missouri or that this decline is directly tied to Michael Brown or protests when St. Louis has been literally the textbook example of urban decay for 50+ years.

Absolutely. KC has seen tremendous growth while St. Louis has seen major urban decay. This isn't a secret. With that said, as noted in the post above yours, they will be lucky as a community to survive this hit.

[Dutch]

I'm listening to this dude on the radio today and he is complaining about the police using helicopters in his neighborhood...he doesn't want his kids growing up around that...I agreed. He then said a better deterrent than helicopters is jobs...I agreed again. Then I thought about Ferguson where the protestors aren't demanding jobs in the Ferguson PD, but a disbanding of the PD so that Ferguson can be incorporated into another PD's jurisdiction. No, no, no. Take the PD for yourselves, take the jobs and ultimate the responsibility...that would be far more helpful than blaming outsiders. Hopefully they go that route...Ferguson will forever be under the microscope.

[Warhammer]

But why take responsibility when we can blame our issues on someone else?

[RainMaker]

If the answer is jobs, it's not smart to burn down the businesses in the community.