Werewolf XXXIV: Tombstone (GAME OVER - Night 13)

[Swaggs]

So, forgive me for being fairly inactive this game. I have had a ton of work and then had family in for the weekend. I have actually read over everything, but haven't spent a ton of time interacting.

One thing that caught my eye a while back was Lathum kind of calling bulletsponge into question, after bullet had killed st. cronin in a duel. What is the current case for or against Lathum?

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

ntn, can you confirm that you did not return a gun to me when I left jail?

I did not give you back a gun. However as You were the only one I let out of Jail, I don't know whether iwould or not. I do know the sherriff gets that info when he locks you up. I just dont know on release. it may be included in the paperwork I had to do to release.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

So, forgive me for being fairly inactive this game. I have had a ton of work and then had family in for the weekend. I have actually read over everything, but haven't spent a ton of time interacting.

One thing that caught my eye a while back was Lathum kind of calling bulletsponge into question, after bullet had killed st. cronin in a duel. What is the current case for or against Lathum?

I don't have any trust in Lathum at all. He was jailed and cleared, but I certainly didn't get any indication of his allegience while he was in the hot seat. If I recall correctly he was simply cleared of Thomkal's murder, and then the shift of focus went to GE.

[hoopsguy]

For - visited Anxiety on Night 1 (did not kill Thomkal). Reported similar experience to NTN. Had gun, but not the murder weapon (per Sheriff Saldana). Released from Jail on Night 2 based on this information

Against - no demonstrated role - was his action burned trying to communicate with Anxiety Night 1? Find myself forgetting he is in the game at points, which should not really happen with veteran player. General sense of unease.

[ntndeacon]

I have a question. Why was it better to have a shootout between Bullett and Cronin than have him in the Jail? once Cronin was seen killing, wasn't it a foregone conclusion he would have been locked up?then Bullet would have still been the potential killer of a cowboy later.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I have a question. Why was it better to have a shootout between Bullett and Cronin than have him in the Jail? once Cronin was seen killing, wasn't it a foregone conclusion he would have been locked up?then Bullet would have still been the potential killer of a cowboy later.

Chubby had some heat on him at that point, so it was kind of a Chubby versus Cronin at that point. If Cronin, even though he was the high percentage choice, had not been the killer, we would have been able to jail and lynch Chubby.

[Swaggs]

I don't see any point in killing LSG or Barkeep if they did not have guns when they checked into jail.

I find Lathum very suspicous. He has a gun and has been noticeably under the radar. He also oddly cast suspicion on bullet right after he had killed a cowboy. To me, that stood out as trying to cast suspicion at anyone but himself.

Racer and Anxiety are two other players that have seemed a bit off to me.

[ntndeacon]

I thought that Chubby was pretty believable. You are right about Chubby putting himself under the gun if he is not truthful there. But the reason iwas really asking that question was about the potential play of the cowboys. They had to know that Cronin was Lost right then. Getting Bullett to use that showdown weopon he had gave the cowboys something positive out of the situation.

[Swaggs]

By the way, do we know if st. cronin had a gun? If not, maybe not all cowboys have guns and that is an assumption I think many of us, at least I, have been making.

Do cowboys always lose duels?

[hoopsguy]

I'm pretty sure that the Cowboys didn't want the tradeoff, but I get what you are saying. If we had put Cronin in jail and executed him the next day we would have had some doubts about how to proceed with our next decision until finishing off Cronin - if he came up villager then would we have shot Chubby in the street? Or would we have jailed and executed him over two days? Then what happens if somehow the Cowboys can plant evidence?

I'm pretty happy with how this one played out. We got two near 100% confirmed villagers in the process which should have a lot of value now and later in the game.

[ntndeacon]

we know Cronin Killled with a knife. I don't think he had one.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

By the way, do we know if st. cronin had a gun? If not, maybe not all cowboys have guns and that is an assumption I think many of us, at least I, have been making.

Do cowboys always lose duels?

I don't think we have any indication that this is the case. I think there are both skill and random elements at play.

Cronin had only a knife.

[ntndeacon]

I think That Bullet would have beat anyone in his duel.

[hoopsguy]

Earlier in the game I was definitely making the assumption that all Cowboys have guns. That was shattered with Fouts' killing and the subsequent duel where Cronin did not have a weapon.

Spleen, have all of the night kills been identical? Or have there been differences in the descriptions, which might indicate that they are rotating killers?

[Glengoyne]

To revisit the Cronin duel versus lynch argument, I thought an actual possibility would be for the Cowboys to have sent Cronin after someone else, hopefully getting a kill in before the arrest. In retrospect, I don't think it was all that critical of a thing. The Cowboys still got a kill in that night, and it doesn't look likely that they would have risked assigning Cronin with another one to jeopordize that.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Earlier in the game I was definitely making the assumption that all Cowboys have guns. That was shattered with Fouts' killing and the subsequent duel where Cronin did not have a weapon.

Spleen, have all of the night kills been identical? Or have there been differences in the descriptions, which might indicate that they are rotating killers?

They have been different. Wasn't today's a single shot to the head? While others were both head and body?

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

They have been different. Wasn't today's a single shot to the head? While others were both head and body?

Thomkal was definitely a double shot, so we know that at least one of the gun owners is a cowboy. If there are other weapons floating around, it would make sense that they would be checked by the sheriff before someone is checked into jail, but we might need clarification on that.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

SnDvls was the miner. He was shot once in the head and once in the body.

While I am here...

LYNCH Barkeep

Today was head/gut. Pretty sure that Thomkal was as well.

[ntndeacon]

i think all of the gun deaths by cowboys have been 2 shots.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

i think all of the gun deaths by cowboys have been 2 shots.

Perhaps the Cowboys have a higher probability of having a successful night kill if two of them make an attempt. Something to think about...

[Abe Sargent]

Okay, I think we all need to post CoTs of our own views, and then see who's not on them. Which players are lacking COT time?

In that spirit, I trust Chubby, Ntndeacon, Lathum, a little bit of hoops, Swaggs

-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Perhaps the Cowboys have a higher probability of having a successful night kill if two of them make an attempt. Something to think about...

I've seen that mechanic before. Good catch.

[Racer]

High Trust:

LSG - PM link

Anxiety - first to speak about gunshots on night one)

ntndeacon - I doubt he would visit me if he were a Cowboy given the information he was able to obtain. If he were a Cowboy, I'm pretty sure he would be visiting people who were thought to be for sure safe.

Chubby - revealed information that lead to St. Cronin getting killed

Moderate trust:

Spleen - It doesn't seem like a Cowboy would have his occupation.

bulletsponge - Gunned down St. Cronin

[bulletsponge]

just checkin up

[Chubby]

I was merely told that Chief Rum got his stuff back when I let him out. No mention of whether there was a gun or not.

I"m in favor of people declaring if they have a gun or not.


I have a gun whether I'm sheriff or not.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I was merely told that Chief Rum got his stuff back when I let him out. No mention of whether there was a gun or not.

I"m in favor of people declaring if they have a gun or not.


I have a gun whether I'm sheriff or not.

I do not.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I was merely told that Chief Rum got his stuff back when I let him out. No mention of whether there was a gun or not.

I"m in favor of people declaring if they have a gun or not.


I have a gun whether I'm sheriff or not.

ntn stated I did not have a gun when he arrested me (and I don't).

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Racer

High Trust:

LSG - PM link

Is this something I missed earlier? I haven't seen any mention of you guys having a PM link--particularly since I have repeatedly heard LSG complain that her role is completely useless. Elaborate please?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Racer

High Trust:

LSG - PM link

Anxiety - first to speak about gunshots on night one)

ntndeacon - I doubt he would visit me if he were a Cowboy given the information he was able to obtain. If he were a Cowboy, I'm pretty sure he would be visiting people who were thought to be for sure safe.

Chubby - revealed information that lead to St. Cronin getting killed

Moderate trust:

Spleen - It doesn't seem like a Cowboy would have his occupation.

bulletsponge - Gunned down St. Cronin

Other than Chubby and Bullet...I find this list odd.

NtN is the preacher, but he is in no way cleared. In fact he and a bunch of others built almost a false circle of trust early in the game. Sort of a pseudo circle.

Spleen - I don't get why being the mortician gives him a free pass.

Anxiety - First to talk about gunshots, so he is trusted? If I were to receive an email saying I heard shots, I'd think that I would assume that others would have the same information. I don't see this action as indicative of Anxiety's alignment.

I just don't follow the logic here.

[Swaggs]

Not sure if anyone has time to do this research (or if they already have it), but does anyone know which gunholders were in jail on the nights of the gun killings?

That info could be useful in determining a good list of murder suspects.

[Swaggs]

Reading over my PM from two nights ago again, when I was released from jail, I also received my "belongings" back, so that information does not specify whether any weapons were involved.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Is this something I missed earlier? I haven't seen any mention of you guys having a PM link--particularly since I have repeatedly heard LSG complain that her role is completely useless. Elaborate please?

She had a very similar experience to me during the night one shooting. That is why I have high trust in her. I don't believe she trusts me though.

[Racer]

Something just occured to me concerning Swaggs. The next person that was murdered by the Cowboys after Swaggs intervened to stop the lynching of Golden Eagle was Golden Eagle. If I remember correctly, there were still some questions about Golden Eagle's allegience after this intervention. Further, by killing off Golden Eagle, it gave us a voting history of a lynching attempt that we could actually use. Therefore, it seems like a poor tactical strategy to kill off Golden Eagle then unless it was to "clear" Swaggs of being a Cowboy.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Okay, I think we all need to post CoTs of our own views, and then see who's not on them. Which players are lacking COT time?

In that spirit, I trust Chubby, Ntndeacon, Lathum, a little bit of hoops, Swaggs

-Anxiety

I asked Racer, so I'll follow up here as well. Why Lathum and NtN? The others I get.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Racer

Something just occured to me concerning Swaggs. The next person that was murdered by the Cowboys after Swaggs intervened to stop the lynching of Golden Eagle was Golden Eagle. If I remember correctly, there were still some questions about Golden Eagle's allegience after this intervention. Further, by killing off Golden Eagle, it gave us a voting history of a lynching attempt that we could actually use. Therefore, it seems like a poor tactical strategy to kill off Golden Eagle then unless it was to "clear" Swaggs of being a Cowboy.

GE was a threat to the sheriff, and anyone in a showdown. That, and the possibility of him being also a bodyguard type of threat came to my mind. That, and GE was pretty much becoming a trusted player. I do not buy this as a "genius" play by the cowboys, as it is a pretty complex and risky plan.

[saldana]

for the record. Swaggs did not have a gun when i arrested him

also for the record, i only had a gun when i was a lawdog...once y'all dumped a spittoon on my head, i became an unarmed civilizillian.

and hoops, if you are around this evening, around 7 easternish, i believe my correct response is "I'll be yer huckleberry"

[hoopsguy]

Saldana, going to a Monday Night Football party (Chicago = stupid crazy about Da Bears) tonight so that time isn't going to work out. Any chance you are going to be up late, maybe 11 easternish?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I asked Racer, so I'll follow up here as well. Why Lathum and NtN? The others I get.

because we both showed up at his house the night he was acting like chiefrum when thomkal was killed and our stories match up perfectly. Just because it was early in the game shouldn't make itr any less legit. There are alot of players who haven't had any heat and have been throwing alot of accusations around such as yourself. Why shouldn't we throw you in jail?

[spleen1015]

Here is what I have for description regarding all of the folks who are dead...

Thomkal - Thomkal was shot twice in the head and body. I cleared this up with Alan T. He was shot once in the head and once in the body.

GE - He was shot one in the head and once in the body. He also managed to get a shot off gunning for his murderer.

Gram - Cause of death was hanging. Duh!

Fouts - Died to a clean cut along his neck.

Sndvls - He was shot twice, once in the head and once in the chest.

Of the 3 shooting victims, 2 were shot ince in the head and once in the body. The other one was shot once in the head and once in the chest. They all could have been shot the same way, but we do have the dofference of body and chest.

[Swaggs]

The 2 shot deaths are important somehow, in my opinion.

If one person has two guns on them, they are clearly a prime suspect. Otherwise, I think multiple cowboys = better chance of a successful kill.

[hoopsguy]

On the topic of trust lists:

Pretty Trusted:
Chubby - caught Cronin
Bullet - shot Cronin
Swaggs - saved a villager with his power

Sort of Trusted:
Anxiety - demonstrated actor power to two people, in a manner that appeared to be defensive (on night of a kill)


That is pretty much it.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Lathum

because we both showed up at his house the night he was acting like chiefrum when thomkal was killed and our stories match up perfectly. Just because it was early in the game shouldn't make itr any less legit. There are alot of players who haven't had any heat and have been throwing alot of accusations around such as yourself. Why shouldn't we throw you in jail?

So you showed up at his house. What does that mean? Early in a game or late?

Having benign night actions doesn't clear you, and shouldn't give anyone confidence in you. The fact that you all are ascribing some sense of allegience based on these visits is actually suspicious in my book. Is there something else that you and your little circle haven't told us?

As for why not to throw me in jail. Because I've been working to clarify who exactly we should be trusting once it became clear that the "CoT" that you had formed was next to worthless. I'm not actively in the CoT because I go to my home at night and stay there. You should drop by. I'm up, I ain't exactly sitting around waiting for a cowboy to come kill me.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

So you showed up at his house. What does that mean? Early in a game or late?

Having benign night actions doesn't clear you, and shouldn't give anyone confidence in you. The fact that you all are ascribing some sense of allegience based on these visits is actually suspicious in my book. Is there something else that you and your little circle haven't told us?

As for why not to throw me in jail. Because I've been working to clarify who exactly we should be trusting once it became clear that the "CoT" that you had formed was next to worthless. I'm not actively in the CoT because I go to my home at night and stay there. You should drop by. I'm up, I ain't exactly sitting around waiting for a cowboy to come kill me.

I agree here.

I don't think being in the company of other players during the night clears anyone.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

On the topic of trust lists:

Pretty Trusted:
Chubby - caught Cronin
Bullet - shot Cronin
Swaggs - saved a villager with his power

Sort of Trusted:
Anxiety - demonstrated actor power to two people, in a manner that appeared to be defensive (on night of a kill)


That is pretty much it.

I think we are giving Swaggs to much of a free pass. Didn't someone say there has been a wolf Duke in the past and he used his power to save a villager? Please look at my last post. The fact that Golden Eagle was the first person killed by the Cowboys after Swaggs's save seems rather convenient for Swaggs. I'm not saying I think he is definitely a Cowboy, but I don't think we should be assuming he is a villager either.

[hoopsguy]

Racer, it works enough for me until I start to run out of other suspects. I'm not at that point yet.

One more person that I give a smidge of trust to and that is NTN. He did visit me at night while Sheriff, on the night there was a murder. People have accounted for him every night so far, so he has not pulled the trigger yet. Unless he bribed Anxiety on Night 1, he didn't commit the bribe either. I consider this a fairly unlikely event with Lathum also visiting Anxiety on the same night.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Racer

I think we are giving Swaggs to much of a free pass. Didn't someone say there has been a wolf Duke in the past and he used his power to save a villager? Please look at my last post. The fact that Golden Eagle was the first person killed by the Cowboys after Swaggs's save seems rather convenient for Swaggs. I'm not saying I think he is definitely a Cowboy, but I don't think we should be assuming he is a villager either.

Why would I expose my role and use my special ability on Day 1 to save someone 1.) that was not a "fellow cowboy" and 2.) when I was under no heat whatsoever?

I was trying to keep us from killing a useful (had a gun and the ability to spring people from jail) villager that had played a poor game up that point. It left a clear voting trail, so that we had that benefit, and it kept numbers favorable to us. If a move like that doesn't land me in your CoT, then neither should bullet killing cronin (could have been sacrificing a "fellow cowboy" that had already been pinned) or Chubby IDing cronin (could have been sacrificing a "fellow cowboy" in order to build trust, gain sheriff status, get heat off of him, etc.). All those scenarios are possible, but not very probable unless the cowboys have enormous balls.

It could jsut be inexperience, but you are playing a very odd game of pick-and-choose and you and Lathum both seem to be trying to disperse suspicion around, so that it doesn't land on any one person. I would guess that one or both of you are cowboys, as you haven't really associated yourselves together much but have tried to cast some accusations at others.

[Swaggs]

Chubby,

I think we should look at jailing Racer and Lathum. I'd like to see some heat on them.

[Swaggs]

I am out until about 7:00 PM EST.

I think there is some information to work with here. We just need a few more clues to make some progress, in my opinion.

[Alan T]

Current vote totals for day 6:

Election votes: (8 votes needed for new sheriff)

No current sheriff votes.

Lynch votes: (8 votes needed for lynch)

(6) Lonestargirl - Path (1942), spleen (1974), Lathum (1976), Hoops (1984), Chubby (1991), Saldana (2018)

(2) Barkeep - Spleen (1937), hoops (1984)


About 10 hours left till deadline. Just a headsup, I'm going to the movie tonight so night results likely will be about 1 hour or 90 minutes delayed. If anyone has a problem with that, I'll give Bulletsponge a special ability to take you out in a showdown!

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Spleen1015-- No* (suggests he doesn't have a gun in #976)
path12-- No* (says he doesn't have a gun in #1963)
LoneStarGirl-- No (arrested without gun)
Anxiety
Lathum-- Yes (arrested with gun)
ntndeacon-- No* (Anxiety says ntn did not have a gun when he visited him on Night 1 in #1061. ntn has since been sheriff, had a gun, and then been unelected, removing said gun)
Swaggs-- No* (says he doesn't have a gun in #1224)
Barkeep49-- No (arrested without a gun)
Chief Rum-- No (arrested without gun)
Saldana
Racer-- No* (says he doesn't have a gun in #1960)
Hoopsguy-- Yes* (says he has a gun in #1561)
Chubby - Yes (has gun as sheriff, and said he had a gun before that)
bulletsponge-- Yes (shot st. cronin in shootout)
Glengoyne

*-- no game action proof

Okay, above is a list of everyone still left. I went through the thread looking for gun references. Hopefully we can put this to good use.

CONFIRMED GUNS

Lathum, hoops, Chubby (has gun even when not sheriff), bullet

CONFIRMED NO GUNS

LSG, Barkeep, Chief Rum

UNCONFIRMED GUNS

Hoops (but why admit that if he doesn't)

UNCONFIRMED NO GUNS

spleen, path, ntndeacon, Swaggs, Racer

NO INFO RE: GUNS AT ALL

Anxiety, saldana, Glengoyne

I'd like this list fleshed out a little more.

Since Swaggs was in jail, wouldn't we know if he had a gun or not?