Werewolf XXII - Way of the Colt - Game over, congrats samurai!

[PackerFanatic]

Was a fun game even though I didn't last long (Thanks Qwik!) hehe...

good job samurai!

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I was fine with hidden rules but, it might have been better to have a list of potential rules so you could at least narrow the field a bit. (Come up with a few that don't even exist)

I think sometimes there was a little bit of discussion on a role and the opinion that it just had to exist...

I think thats what was fun

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Alan T

As for Mr. W's question, I figured it was only a matter of time till they came after me and killed me. I basically tried to leave so much non-information that if you went off of what I said, it wouldnt get you anywhere. I basically grouped up ninjas with samurais in each of my types of dealings, where I never had a ninja singled out.. I had paired up Mr. W with Schmidty and Desnudo in not naming them at all, or being any bit suspicious about them. I paired up king with Qwik as far as being very suspicious, and I paired eaglesfan with Mustang and tanglewood as far as being openly accusing.

That way I wouldn't leave any ninja wide open without some group. I honestly thought that Schmidty would be more confrontational and end up getting himself lynched before Mr.W, I figured people would lynch Tanglewood and or Mustang before Eaglesfan and get tired of chasing that dead end, and I was just hoping King would hold out a bit.

That looks like solid reasoning. I'm sorry I didn't have enough time to look at it closer and hammer on Schmidty.

[Schmidty]

Great job hoopsguy. I totally didn't deserve to win, especially with that post with the quote in it.

[Desnudo]

Nice job guys. It would have been interesting had Eaglesfan lived another day.

[Coder]

I'm also very curious why you took out RPI that night. Just doesn't make any sense at all.. anyone but RPI.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

If you knew King attacked you, why didn't you tell us, so we could kill him? Or did you mean you found out after you were out of the game?

I knew, but wanted to sit on it and see who he was collaborating with...like eagles this last day(at the beginning) it was clear they were supporting each other...i hoped i could hide that i knew and catch the other ninjas as well...took a chance, didnt work

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I didn't tell anyone all of the details after they left the game, but I did swap a few PMs with some of the players who were out of the game.

Blade - here is the first one I had from you where you guessed the ninjas:

but my best guess for ninjas would be King, Taz, Mustang....am i close?

Just want to make sure you don't take credit for knowing everything at the time of your death You had King: 1 out of 3 isn't bad at that point.

i actually said a bit before that king was the only one i knew before death...i didnt figure out eagles till this cycle, alan i never guessed, and Mr. w about 5 minutes before he died

[Coder]

If you guys hadn't killed RPI, but, for example, killed Taz instead, you would have gotten two samurai killed.. because we would certainly have voted for RPI instead of King today if that had been the case..

[hoopsguy]

Schmidty, I wasn't all that worried about your "role reveal" because I had sent out unique descriptions to every person to avoid just that sort of issue. So I was fine with it staying up there - no one would have had a description that matched yours.

I was a little weirded out when Saldana said that you had nearly matching descriptions because I didn't think they were all that close except for a similar typo in each ...

Here is the complete list of PMs I sent out on the first day with roles:

1/27 3:23 PM Lathum
You are Shichiroji Ohashi, a samurai warrior who has mastered the art of the bo staff. However, this does not convey any special abilities within the context of this game.

1/27 3:23 PM Taz
You are Takeshi Tono, a man feared throughout the lands as a deadly hand-to-hand combatant. Your Buddhist beliefs have forced you to give up the use of swords. You have no special abilities in this game.

1/27 3:23 PM Coder
You are Setsuko Hidari, a noted samurai general noted for his brilliant tactical leadership. However, this does not give you any special abilities in this game.

1/27 3:24 PM KWhit
You are Daisuke Sakakida, a famed samurai swordsman. However, your power in this game will be your mind as the fumes from the fire appear to have triggered a level of sensory awareness you have never before experienced. Translation – you are the seer. Scan one person per night.

1/27 3:25 PM Eaglesfan
You are Jinjiro Sakakida, samurai by day but feared ninja by night. Other ninjas include Mr. Wednesday, Kingfc22, and AlanT. The smoke from the fire appears to have opened up new mental abilities for you. You possess the ability to scan one player every other night to learn their role.

1/27 3:25 PM RPI-Fan
You are Bokuzen Sakakida, an ancient samurai warrior who wanders the lands looking for wrongs to right. However, this does not give you any special in-game abilities.

1/27 3:26 PM Blade
You are Tsuruko Shimada, the biggest badass samurai in the land. You are the bodyguard. Modified bodyguard rules – cannot guard a player for 2nd time until you have guarded everyone in the village.

1/27 3:26 PM PackerFanatic
You are Kikuko Makabe. You are somewhat of a celebrity for your appearance in “Karate Kid Kicks Back – Hard”. This, however, does not give you any special powers in the game.

1/27 3:27 PM Schmidty
You ar Yoichiro Fujita. You are a very average samurai with no distinguishing characteristics. Perhaps this adventure will be an opportunity to elevate your status.

1/27 3:27 PM Tanglewood
You are Mosuke Hosoi, considered by most to be the finest left-handed katana specialist in the world. However, this does not convey any special powers in the game.

1/27 3:27 PM Mr. Wednesday
You are Koji Maruyama, the wealthiest man in all of China. Although your ninja skills are only average, you do possess the ability to draw men to your cause by way of your enormous wealth. You have enough on your person to bribe one samurai this game. Your ninja teammates are Eaglesfan, Kingfc22, and AlanT.

1/27 3:28 PM Qwikshot
You are Kazuko Yikimime, a samurai with a dark side. Although you cling to the notion of Bushido, you also are desperate to win the favor of Chuck Norris. Once over the course of this game you may kill another player during night actions. Choose wisely.

1/27 3:28 PM Mustang
You are Hansuke Toyama, a samurai whose English is laced with a Texas drawl from watching too many Western movies. This does not give you any special abilities in the game.

1/27 3:29 PM Saldana
You ar Naosuke Kurosawa, a Japaneese samurai with a love of kereoke bars. You often find yourself in kung fu action due to your horrible singing voice. No special in-game abilities.

1/27 3:30 PM Desnudo
You are Jinjiro Tadokoro. You are not a well-known samurai, but you do have the advantage of the being the favorite of Chuck Norris. PM me on Day 2 for details on your special role.

1/27 3:33 PM Dubb
You are Heihachi Makabe. You are always drunk, but only because you fight better that way. However, this does not give you any special in-game advantages.

1/27 3:33 PM King
You are Unosuke Kiyokawa, a member of the ninja party. Your teammates include Eaglesfan, Mr. Wednesday, and AlanT. They will inform you of their roles. You have no special role other than being a ninja.

1/27 3:34 PM Path
You are Kamatari Hosoi, a samurai who has gained fame for dual-wielding wakazashi. As samurai go, this does not constitute any special in-game powers.

1/27 3:34 PM SirFozzie
You are Kikuko Kodo, a run-of-the-mill samurai. You do have one advantage over your teammates, however. It is a badass sword in your room that seems to be able to communicate telepathically with you. You may exchange pm's with Barkeep until the Night 1 actions are posted.

1/27 3:34 PM Alan T
You are Hisao Tsuchiya, the most deadly ninja in all the lands. Within the game, that means you are the brutal ninja and can take down an opponent if lynched. Your teammates are Eaglesfan, Mr. Wednesday, and Kingfc22.

1/27 3:35 PM Barkeep
You are an intelligent Katana. Play it however you want, but here are your rules. 1.) You are out of the game if used to kill someone 2.) You must be passed every evening if you are not used to kill someone. 3.) You cannot reveal game information from our pre-game conversations – no info on roles, number of ninja/samurai, etc. 4.) PM with your one player only – no posting in main thread or with other players besides the person who possesses you. Help/hurt whatever side floats your boat.

[KWhit]

Just checked back in. I might read through the last few pages to see how things ended, but it was nice to see that I was dead-on about King. I knew the ninjas wouldn't be stupid enough to let him live if he were actually a samurai, since he was the obvious kill for them strategically after most of us considered him cleared.

Good game, Hoops. I like the secretive nature of the rules and roles. It's kind of fun to have a little confusion going around. Well done.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Also on that night Eagles was not able to scan the mentally strong Path. I believe they thought he was the seer, so they popped him the following night while Qwikshot took out PackerFanatic (Night 2).

Exactly. I thought Path was the seer when he negated my view. After the second view also failed, I was confused, and was hypothesizing that there might be a 3rd faction. I think our biggest mistake was killing RPI-Fan. We thought that might take heat off of King since RPI was on King, and it might look like a setup of King for RPI to die.

[Qwikshot]

Well, I was brutal this game, and rusty. I did the right thing not killing Blade, but was so fearful that I would be killed before killing someone that I rashly went out of my way to kill someone.

I can say that while I was completely fooled by King, I knew Lathum wasn't bad, so I'm glad my last vote at least was a ninja.

[saldana]

excellent game hoops, very well done and excellent writing as well....you were right, i never was going to figure out the tie breaker rules....and just to pop Blade's ego a little bit , i had eaglesfan pegged from 10 minutes after i died, so i actually figured out 2 (i was calling for alant for 2 days) of the 4...admittedly though, i had nothing on Mr. W, and was a bit suspicious on King, but probably not enough to push on him.

And blade, maybe the reason none of us picked up on your King hints before you died were because since you post every 2 seconds, most of us dont really read what you write anymore

Great game guys....Alan, since Dubb is apparently retired, i will now be voting for you every day 1 from until a better candidate come along.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Coder

If you guys hadn't killed RPI, but, for example, killed Taz instead, you would have gotten two samurai killed.. because we would certainly have voted for RPI instead of King today if that had been the case..

You really think so? I doubt it. He would have had tremendous cred after leading a three-day crusade against me.

Come to think of it... the lynch vote between us has to have been damn close to getting both of us killed. RPI can't have been much below 40% of the vote.

[Barkeep49]

I just want to say it was very frustrating seeing Fozzie come so close to not being lynched but still being lynched thus removing me from the game. I was excited about being able to manipulate things behind the scenes, especially as Fozzie didn't automatically know he could use me to kill, but I never got the chance. I thought the game played out pretty well. I am proud of the fact that once I knew king was a ninja, cause I knew the rules about blinding the bodyguard, I figured out right away that Eagles was also a ninja. But while I was intensely reading the thread I had no real bead on W.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by saldana

excellent game hoops, very well done and excellent writing as well....you were right, i never was going to figure out the tie breaker rules....and just to pop Blade's ego a little bit , i had eaglesfan pegged from 10 minutes after i died, so i actually figured out 2 (i was calling for alant for 2 days) of the 4...admittedly though, i had nothing on Mr. W, and was a bit suspicious on King, but probably not enough to push on him.

And blade, maybe the reason none of us picked up on your King hints before you died were because since you post every 2 seconds, most of us dont really read what you write anymore

Great game guys....Alan, since Dubb is apparently retired, i will now be voting for you every day 1 from until a better candidate come along.

You caused me many problems. I couldn't have you killed for obvious reasons, thats why you were the special target when I went down.

[Grammaticus]

Hoops,

I think the results write ups were really good. They also got better deeper into the game. They were great to read. I think the way night one was handled was pretty good from a balance perspective, considering the given rule set.

I like the secret roles in the sense people do not know what specialty roles will exist in the game. It allows for some creativity regarding reveals and strategy. I do think the roles should come from a “known list” or basically not be completely foreign to players. Basically, there may be a seer in the game or there may not, but everyone knows what a seer is. This may be completely a personal preference.

I’m not sure about the fact roles were not revealed upon death. It was certainly fun, but there seems to be a need for some things to be tangible in WW games in order to mechanically maintain a balanced game. If the good guys don’t know who or I should say what role was killed, it is not always possible to put the logic together. You basically have to go on post content alone. From what I can tell in reading about mafia/werewolf, post content is key, but role reveal is also key in validating post content as the game progresses.

By not having role reveals upon death and having a lynch percentage trigger, I think the favor goes to the ninja with both. The bodyguard was weakened severely with the one guard per player and blinded upon guarding a ninja. The seer was also weakened by allowing mentally strong saves and the ninja were given a seer too as an offset. The ninja having to make a conversion percentage was in favor of the Samurai and the Samurai did get a one time pk role (but the ninja had a brutal wolf). All said and done, I think the advantage with the rule set was with the ninja. A way to add some balance would be to make the bodyguard work the traditional way, let everyone know about the lynch percentage rule up front and remove the seer ability from the ninja.

Oh, it was a lot of fun to play. Probably my favorite one so far and I think everyone had a good time with this one. I don’t mean to be too critical of the rules, the Samurai did win. But one game is not a benchmark for play testing. I think if you played this same rule set several times, you would end up making some tweaks. I’m just guessing at what some good tweaks would be.

BTW, has anyone ever run a game on these boards with the serial killer role? It sounds like a bizarre option and I’m wondering if it adds to being an enjoyable game.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

BTW, has anyone ever run a game on these boards with the serial killer role? It sounds like a bizarre option and I’m wondering if it adds to being an enjoyable game.

dont make me run a game where roles are handed out as count chocula and dig'm the frog

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

BTW, has anyone ever run a game on these boards with the serial killer role? It sounds like a bizarre option and I’m wondering if it adds to being an enjoyable game.

I tried in my Time Traveler game...just didn't work in my game.

[hoopsguy]

There was a serial killer in one of Neon's games.

Gram, all of those issues favoring the ninja are accurate. It is part of the reason I threw in Desnudo's role that provided info on two of the night kills. But the biggest issue that faced the ninjas down the stretch was that an individual ninja could not kill on back-to-back nights. So if they did get down to one ninja against four or more samurai that they would be guaranteed to miss a night kill. By that point in the game, they would have depended heavily upon being in an accepted circle of trust - which is potentially hard to do. The ninja here definitely struggled to gain trust over the six day game.

I'm not sure how this one would play out over a number of sessions. The wolves complained about their bad breaks, but here is what went down for the villagers:
Day 1: lose SirFozzie, and thus the intelligent weapon (could play either way)
Night 1: see their bodyguard role neutralized. Remember it is also modified witness (25% chance for list of 3 on kill each night - list includes at least one ninja - repeatable role)
Night 2: the assassin kills a samurai
Day 3: the seer is lynched

So the villagers lost a lot of their difference maker roles early on. The people who decided the game (besides random.org on the conversion) were the plain old villagers.

[PackerFanatic]

I almost thought we weren't gonna win it, heh...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

You really think so? I doubt it. He would have had tremendous cred after leading a three-day crusade against me.

Come to think of it... the lynch vote between us has to have been damn close to getting both of us killed. RPI can't have been much below 40% of the vote.

I was nearly positive RPI was innocent. You know, I hardly saw any decent arguments for voting for him. I was starting to get suspicious of the people doing the pushing. If I had stayed alive another day, I would have pushed hard for King. I got him in my free ninja guess from Hoops once I died.

I thought King was the last ninja and would have been suprised when the game continued. Eaglesfan was in the back of my mind due to having to make two excuses, the last of which seemed hollow. One excuse you can let go, but the second...Honestly, if it was Schmidty instead of Eagles that did that, we probably would have voted him the next day. I probably would have voted for Lathum after King though due to his pushing for RPI.

Nice job on the pairing Alan. It seems obvious in hindsight, but I never caught on to it.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So the villagers lost a lot of their difference maker roles early on. The people who decided the game (besides random.org on the conversion) were the plain old villagers.

Yeah, I don't think there was a case where one side got more bad breaks than the other. I can think of some lucky stuff that happened to us as well as unlucky. I think there were alot of weird behind the scenes things that ended up happening that threw everyone for a loop, which caused much more entertainment in this one.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

The wolves complained about their bad breaks, but here is what went down for the villagers:

My observation was that we caught a bunch of early breaks in terms of villager actions, but lost out on about every random number roll.

[hoopsguy]

I would agree with that, including the secondary role assignments. There was a 25% chance for anyone to be mentally strong and none of the four ninjas rolled this. 50% of the 16 samurai got this designation. You did pull one of the two incorruptable choices, which helped your cause but was ultimately rendered moot when you rolled the killer 10% on the conversion attempt of a "not incorruptable" samurai.

[Barkeep49]

Looking at this rule set I think it promotes itself to one team really killing the other. This was a lot closer than I expected.

[kingfc22]

Yea, the reason we killed RPI was because he was putting a lot of heat on me before he died. However, nobody brought up the idea that I was being framed thus I had to come up with something at the last minute. I had made the kill the previous night and since Eagles was the other suspect, if I was saved I would not have been able to kill.