Who will (not should) be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Let's say you actually sat down with one of these mysterious survey respondents, and he said this to you:

I have a job, and I'm fairly secure. With my job I get health insurance, and that doesn't seem like it's going to change. So, my coverage is basically okay -- I might not love everything my HMO does, but I get the care that my family needs.

Meanwhile, my brother lost his job last year, and now he doesn't have health insurance any more while he is looking for real work. He got ill last month, and had to go to the emergency room, and he couldn't pay for it. As I understand it, the hospital basically just eats that cost, and basically send the bill to the people who do pay for their care -- people like me, even though it's supposedly my employer who is paying for my coverage. They could be giving me that extra money instead of spending it on inflated premiums.

I guess I'm glad that my uninsured brother got his emergency treatment, but it seems dumb that everyone else pays for it. It also seems dumb that he and his pregnant wife don't go to the doctor for checkups because it would cost them $100 to do so, and they don't have the $100. They aren't dirt poor, but times are tight and it seems they would be making better decisions if this were out of the day-to-day mix for them. I wonder what might happen to me if I lost my job... I might end up in just the same situation, and I'd hate to have to decide whether I pay the electric bill or take my kid to the doctor.

If that's a fair statement about a person's state of affairs... isn't it conceivable that such a person could indeed honestly respond to questions that:

-Yes, my current coverage is okay
-I still think this overall system should be better

Well, according the survey above, 77% of the people were exactly in that situation (or one similar to it) then. I think a more likely case is:

"I have solid coverage. I'm pretty happy with it. But, I turn on the news every night and see all these stories on people without coverage and am told how terrible our health care system is."

[ISiddiqui]

People feel satisfied with their own coverage and don't think the government would do as well. But, major changes need to be made and that the government should run it.

I think its far more complicated than that, as QuikSand hypo indicates that people may be happy with their own coverage, but know people who are dire situations because of their health care problems. So the solution isn't one extreme or the other, but a mixture; one where people can keep their own health care policies, but have something to cover everyone who isn't covered currently (or at least be given the option to be covered).

And I don't think its necessarily they "turn on the news every night", because I don't think the news actually reports the horror stories. Maybe I have a bit of bias, since I work in the field, but there are people who have employer health insurance who are just getting screwed, mostly by insurance companies who are putting up ridiculous roadblocks. Perhaps the solution is to have the insurance companies be regulated by the federal government as well as the states (right now only the states regulate insurance companies, the feds, though, regulate employer sponsored health plans, which is a bit of a problem - ie, go after the employer not the insurance company, even though the ins company wrote and administers the plan - but that's what the law says).

[JPhillips]

When all else fails, blame the media.

Insecurity is the big issue for people. Even those with good jobs now are worried about the lack of security going forward. People with very good incomes only have a couple of months or less of savings to live on if they lose their job. Healthcare is in the same basket. I have healthcare now, but if I'm not renewed next year I won't. What do I do with my three year old daughter? She's very healthy, but what if she wasn't? I could get by on COBRA for a while, but it wouldn't take long before I'd have to choose between house payment and COBRA as my two major expenses.

All of the polls on the economy and healthcare are reflecting a general sense of insecurity that Americans haven't really come to terms with yet. For better or worse we live in an age where change is rapid and can be devestating. Collectively Americans are better off now than fifty years ago, but individually there is a lot of anxiety because our lives are far less predictable.

[QuikSand]

If a evil regime were to institute a system where one of every four newborn children were slain immediately... you could have 75% of families saying that the system worked fine for them, but still support getting rid of it. I'm not sure there's much substance to the little dance you're trying to do with the statistics here.

I personally, and pretty much everyone I know, have perfectly adequate health insurance. But I also recognize that our system is not a particularly sensible one. I have a healthy skepticism about the government's ability to effectively "take over" much of anything, but I can see that the stripe of people we leave completely uncovered is simply not good for society, regardless of the demerits of any particular proposed solution.

So, I'm part of that 77% or whatever share of the populace you seem to think is full of shit or just a sheep to the evil media. And I'm not actually a complete imbecile, by most accounts.

[CamEdwards]

A new poll on this just came out today.

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_c...ral_government

Twenty-nine percent (29%) of American adults favor a national health insurance program overseen by the Federal Government. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 39% oppose such a government-led initiative while 31% are not sure.

The survey also found that 46% believe the quality of care would decrease under a national health insurance program while 16% believe that quality would increase. Twenty percent (20%) say the quality of care would remain about the same while 18% are not sure.

At the same time, 42% believe the cost of health care would increase while 25% would expect prices to go down.

While opposing a national program overseen by the federal government, Americans support requiring companies to provide health insurance for their employees. Sixty-three percent (63%) favor such a requirement while 24% are opposed.

[ISiddiqui]

Post more of the article, would you?

An earlier survey found that just 31% rate the U.S. health care system as good or excellent.
At the same time, people give much higher reviews to their own health care coverage.

Another survey found that half of all Americans say they support providing free health care for all citizens. However, support for free coverage drops dramatically if it would require changing to a new insurance program.

So half Americans would support FREE health care for all citizens as long as they get to stay on their own insurance. And it seems that more than that believe the system need overhauling, but they like their own coverage at the moment.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I personally, and pretty much everyone I know, have perfectly adequate health insurance. But I also recognize that our system is not a particularly sensible one. I have a healthy skepticism about the government's ability to effectively "take over" much of anything, but I can see that the stripe of people we leave completely uncovered is simply not good for society, regardless of the demerits of any particular proposed solution.

I think this fair - and I agree with it for the most part. The problem I have is the use of these polls by some to justify going to a national health care system. If the question is whether our current system needs some adjustments to improve coverage/reduce cost, I will certainly agree. Heck, you can read numerous posts above and in the old health care thread on what I would like to see happen.

So, I'm part of that 77% or whatever share of the populace you seem to think is full of shit or just a sheep to the evil media. And I'm not actually a complete imbecile, by most accounts.

Having a view of a situation inconsistent with your own experience does not make you sheep. It's just interesting that so many people with perfectly good insurance feel that massive changes are needed (according to the poll). Then again, we have 95% employment and there are polls that show 60% worried about their job. Uncertainty always creates worry, but the proper course here is not to panic and start over - it's to see where the holes in the current system are and work towards filling them.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Post more of the article, would you?



So half Americans would support FREE health care for all citizens as long as they get to stay on their own insurance. And it seems that more than that believe the system need overhauling, but they like their own coverage at the moment.

I kinda disregarded that poll question, given that there is no such thing as free health care.

Clearly the American people are somewhat schizophrenic on this issue, which makes me think that most of us (myself included) know enough to have opinions, but not enough to have INFORMED opinions. So you get all kinds of wacky numbers.

[Buccaneer]

Public opinion polls have shown that a majority of Americans don't think our health care system is sufficient.

A majority of Americans don't think our national security is sufficient and would rather have the federal govt do even more to keep us safe from harm.

Imran, serious question. You been pushing this and similar positions pretty hard in the past year. I think I've read that you are a govt lawyer of some sort? Do you personally gain from expanded govt in this area?

I say this because I have a best friend from HS who has been working in various federal agencies as a scientist (astrophysicists). He has been working for USNO, last I've heard, and before, NOAA. He has always been fairly moderate but hates Bush simply because of the cuts in scientific endeavors at the federal level. He will vote for whomever will increase the stature and fundings of scientists on federal payrolls.

[ISiddiqui]

Imran, serious question. You been pushing this and similar positions pretty hard in the past year. I think I've read that you are a govt lawyer of some sort? Do you personally gain from expanded govt in this area?

I am, officially, a Pension Investigator. I also investigate Health Care Plans. Basically to make sure that employer sponsored plans follow ERISA.

If there was, say, a single payer health plan, half of my job would be obsolete (and well, that may not be so good in terms of future funding).

So I think it doesn't help me if the situation is solved. Hell, as long as there is a mess in health care, the funding for my agency stays the same or increases. Even a mixed system would probably help reduce some of the participant inquires (because any mixed plan has some federal regulation/oversight on insurance companies).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Arles

You really think that the moment this gets passed, a bunch of low to middle class jobs won't just drop health coverage for their workers? There are two reasons for an employer to offer health coverage: 1. entice people to work for them. 2. Public pressure to provide coverage. If you remove number 2, then there is no reason for every middle to low skill job (ie, easily replaced) to provide health coverage. Then, we have most jobs under 50K not offering health care. So, what happens if this government plan doesn't work out from a quality/cost standpoint?

I think a lot of us are worried about this going away. My health coverage and my parents health coverage (as I'm not really old enough to just go on my own) has gotten significantly worse and cost signifcantly more. Each year my coverage costs go up much more than inflation but my benefits keep getting cut.

I honestly believe that in the next 10~20 years, health coverage will not be one of the benefits that is expected to be on the table when you're going in to get a job. One or two major companies will break the barrier and not offer it except as an extreme perk or say something like "here's your $500 monthly medical insurance stipend" that will be easy enough to phase out over a few years with much less fanfare than when it first happens. So, yeah, I'd like to have an alternative to that in the works.

In fact, I wish people had to have insurance because it's far more of a health risk to me in my everyday life than terrorism or any other "risk" you could come up with. I don't need some idiot I'm working with coming in with TB or pneumonia because they wanted to, as it was put earlier in the thread, "pass on health care coverage from his employer to have more beer money" rather than getting checked out at the doctor.

SI

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

In fact, I wish people had to have insurance because it's far more of a health risk to me in my everyday life than terrorism or any other "risk" you could come up with. I don't need some idiot I'm working with coming in with TB or pneumonia because they wanted to, as it was put earlier in the thread, "pass on health care coverage from his employer to have more beer money" rather than getting checked out at the doctor.

Yeah, but whether a person comes in feeling sick or not doesn't really depend on whether they have insurance. Insurance and check-ups theoretically prevent or alleviate long-term problems like cancer or heart disease before they become serious and more costly. I think everyone can pretty much tell if they have the flu without going to see the doctor, and the decision to go into work is based on a personal choice and company sick-day policy/standard procedure around the office.


As for the other parts, I think people are depressingly risk-averse these days. It's not a perfect analogy, but the classic is "how much would you need guaranteed to pass up the chance to flip a coin and win $100 - or get nothing". The way people talk about health care these days would it probably run about $20 on average. Way to strive for mediocrity.

11 days until Pennsylvania finally happens. Hillary up ~8 pts on average, but there's one poll with an 18-pt spread that might be jacking that lead up a little.

[Vegas Vic]

It will be interesting to see how he navigates himself out of this one.

Obama Draws Fire for Comments on Small-Town America

Hillary Clinton and John McCain both ripped into Barack Obama Friday for reportedly saying residents of small-town America “cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them” out of bitterness over lost jobs, a remark his opponents interpreted as arrogant.

The Huffington Post reported that Obama made the comments while speaking to a group of wealthy California donors in San Francisco over the weekend. The Post quotes him specifically singling out towns in Pennsylvania, where he’s trying to woo voters and overcome Clinton’s lead in the polls before the state’s April 22 primary.

The comments immediately became fodder for the campaigns of Clinton, Obama’s rival for the Democratic nomination, and McCain, his potential Republican challenger.

“Pennsylvanians don’t need a president who looks down on them. They need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them,” Clinton said Friday afternoon at a campaign stop in Philadelphia. She said the Pennsylvanians she’s met aren’t bitter, but “resilient” and “positive.”

McCain adviser Steve Schmidt called Obama’s statement “remarkable” and “extremely revealing.”

“It shows an elitism and condescension towards hardworking Americans that is nothing short of breathtaking,” Schmidt said. “It is hard to imagine someone running for president of the United States who is more out of touch with average Americans.”

Schmidt also said it shows Obama views the people he’s trying to relate to with “contempt.”

The Obama campaign has neither confirmed nor disputed the account in The Huffington Post.

Spokesman Tommy Vietor, though, released a statement chiding Washington insiders for failing to restore those lost jobs Obama reportedly referenced in San Francisco.

“And if John McCain wants a debate about who’s out of touch with the American people, we can start by talking about the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans that he once said offended his conscience but now wants to make permanent,” Vietor said.

The Huffington Post originally quoted Obama as saying: “You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not.

“And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

Obama, who consistently leads Clinton among highly educated and wealthy voters, has tried to make up ground with middle-class America, where Clinton is strong. But recent comments from him and his wife Michelle have occasionally been interpreted as too high-minded.

Michelle Obama, for instance, drew criticism in February for saying she was “proud” of her country for the first time in her adult life.

A March 28 article in New York magazine reported that, according to a Democratic strategist, Obama was unable to clinch the endorsement of exiting candidate John Edwards because he was “glib and aloof” when Edwards tried to talk to him about poverty.

“It comes off very badly,” Democratic strategist Kirsten Powers said of Obama’s small-town America remarks. “They are things that I think in a liberal world sound totally normal, and outside of that world I don’t know that he appreciates how it sounds. And it just sounds very elitist, and it sounds like he’s looking down on people.”

Of course, Clinton would have a hard time arguing she’s just like those small-town Pennsylvania voters. She and her husband’s newly released tax returns showed they earned nearly $110 million since leaving the White House, compared with the Obamas’ meager millions earned in the same period.

Full Story

[CamEdwards]

Yeah, I've seen this one resonating around the blogs for the past few hours. It's interesting to see some of the spin from Obama supporters. I've seen similar sentiment expressed in the comments at sevearl blogs.

He was actually showing empathy in that statement...

Frankly, this would normally be a good time for something like this to come out. But Sunday night there's the debate focusing on "spirituality" and "values" on CNN. You know the Jeremiah Wright stuff's going to come up, and now there's another comment Obama will be questioned on. I don't think Obama's current response will work (though Axelrod has 48 hours to craft a good spin).


-

[Buccaneer]

“It comes off very badly,” Democratic strategist Kirsten Powers said of Obama’s small-town America remarks. “They are things that I think in a liberal world sound totally normal, and outside of that world I don’t know that he appreciates how it sounds. And it just sounds very elitist, and it sounds like he’s looking down on people.”

I see visions of John Kerry as he tried to connect outside of his base in the general. Harsh words from a Dem strategist.

[-apoc-]

Is it just me or did he just spin this whole thing around and turn it into a boost for himself?

http://www.youtube.com/v/Sc9PepjyDow

[JPhillips]

It does come off badly, but it also sounds exactly like the small town in rural Ohio I grew up in. Does anyone here really disagree with this as a way to explain a lot of people who have seen the world pass them by over the past two or three decades? I grew up watching factories close and families lose their farms. Some of those jobs came back, but not all of them. Now there's a lot of anger that gets manifested in us versus them sentiments.

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It does come off badly, but it also sounds exactly like the small town in rural Ohio I grew up in. Does anyone here really disagree with this as a way to explain a lot of people who have seen the world pass them by over the past two or three decades? I grew up watching factories close and families lose their farms. Some of those jobs came back, but not all of them. Now there's a lot of anger that gets manifested in us versus them sentiments.

If you're gonna boil it down to us vs. them, why throw the gun thing in the list? And it's pretty easy to see why saying that small-town people "cling to religion" would be considered offensive by almost everybody. Religious people who actually believe in their faith are clearly gonna be pissed and then people who aren't religious and view themselves as kind of better than relying on it as a crutch are going to be offended they and their (in their mind) legitimate grievances are lumped in with people they don't see as very rational.

F'ing elitists.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by -apoc-

Is it just me or did he just spin this whole thing around and turn it into a boost for himself?

http://www.youtube.com/v/Sc9PepjyDow

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If you're gonna boil it down to us vs. them, why throw the gun thing in the list? And it's pretty easy to see why saying that small-town people "cling to religion" would be considered offensive by almost everybody. Religious people who actually believe in their faith are clearly gonna be pissed and then people who aren't religious and view themselves as kind of better than relying on it as a crutch are going to be offended they and their (in their mind) legitimate grievances are lumped in with people they don't see as very rational.

F'ing elitists.

That was a pretty smooth come back on his part . And I will have to say this is a real stretch trying to say Obama was slamming the blue collar class. Anyone who reads his actual comments can see what he meant. Coming from four generation irish immigrants originally to the Boston area and myself being the first member of my family to be recieve a graduate degree let alone just four year college I guess I could be classified as one of those f'ing elitists. I for one am proud to have worked my way up and won't apologize for it and neither should anyone else who is college educated which seems to be what Clinton is peddling to middle america. BTW Bishop aren't you a college kid yourself?

[Buccaneer]

The ironic thing is that you can apply the same logic to the city of San Francisco, where he made that remark. There is a lot of us vs them in that city, keeping the undesirables in certain sections. Why single out a selected segment of a selected area of the country?

explain a lot of people who have seen the world pass them by over the past two or three decades

Yes, if you are looking at a selected set of people and ignoring the vast majority. Why the past two or three decades when it's been like that everywhere throughout our (and other country's) history? Economies change, technologies change, demographics change. Why pick on them and not, say, southside Chicago?

[CamEdwards]

Okay, after listening to it, I don't think he helped himself out among gun owners anyway (and there a ton of gun owning Democrats in PA). He still seemed to suggest that only reason people would vote the gun issue (for example) is because they feel like neither candidate will help them economically.

Frankly, that's a laughable claim to make in a state that just voted down a gun control proposal last week... and a helluva lot of Democrat State Representatives voted against it too. Gun owners are a powerful political force in PA, and he's basically told them they can't really be serious about their passion.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Galaril

That was a pretty smooth come back on his part . And I will have to say this is a real stretch trying to say Obama was slamming the blue collar class. Anyone who reads his actual comments can see what he meant. Coming from four generation irish immigrants originally to the Boston area and myself being the first member of my family to be recieve a graduate degree let alone just four year college I guess I could be classified as one of those f'ing elitists. I for one am proud to have worked my way up and won't apologize for it and neither should anyone else who is college educated which seems to be what Clinton is peddling to middle america. BTW Bishop aren't you a college kid yourself?

Wow, not sure about that response. Starts off well enough, but by the end his argument is that the American people are angry and bitter and that's why they want change? Also hilarious how he claims to want to avoid pandering the whole time, then his first claim is that jobs have been shipped overseas.

As for me and the f'ing elitist claim, yes I'm a college student, and I'll agree with much of his statement that people in middle america (or anywhere) cling to dumb ideas and vote for the wrong reasons. I wasn't arguing whether he was right, I was arguing it's gonna hurt his perception in rural america and thus his election chances. That was the one biggest thing that tipped the election to Bush over Kerry was the perception that Kerry was an elitist when GWB wasjust as privileged. It's not who you are and what you believe but how it's presented.

And like Cam said, the gun issue doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of that argument - it'd be a lot more innocous if it was just relating to economics.

[JPhillips]

I get the political damage this may cause, however, I think he was trying to make an argument for why people get caught up in single issue voting. It's an argument that makes some sense to me, but I've always had trouble understanding voters who base a national office vote on one issue only.

As to why he's talking about rural midwestern voters, that's where the election is right now. The contest at the moment isn't about the south side of Chicago or neighborhoods in San Francisco. He was likely explaining how to overcome the deficit in PA and this was a part of his answer.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Obama

anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations

Isn't Senator Obama the guy who is slamming NAFTA and other proposed free trade agreements? Is Obama trying to explain his frustration?

[JPhillips]

Here's a more complete transcript:

Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

But — so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is so we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing — to close tax loopholes, uh you know uh roll back the tax cuts for the top 1%, Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide healthcare for every American.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you’ll find is, is that people of every background — there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you’ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I’d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you’re doing what you’re doing.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I get the political damage this may cause, however, I think he was trying to make an argument for why people get caught up in single issue voting.

So, then, I take it most of you that don't have an issue with Obama's comments would have had no problem with these:

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to issues like allowing abortions or antipathy toward people who aren't like them.

[Dutch]

I wonder what Obama/Clinton poll numbers on FOFC are these days. I'm guessing Obama is about a 75/25 landslide at this point.

[stevew]

obama is a fucking elitist prick.

[JPhillips]

Arles: That would be stupid because people in small towns generally aren't pro-choice. If, however, you came up with a sensible pro-choice comparison, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't understand single issue voting regardless of what that single issue is.

[flere-imsaho]

Looks like another example of a quote being stripped down to a soundbite and then spun into oblivion, to me.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Looks like another example of a quote being stripped down to a soundbite and then spun into oblivion, to me.

You should listen to the audio at the HuffPo. Granted the sound quality is pretty bad, but no, the whole quote is delivered as if Obama is talking about some foreign land. And the guffaws and bellylaughs delivered by the San Francisco crowd when Obama says these small town people are skeptical of what he's saying because he's a 46-year old black man... well, frankly it's the display of an attitude that liberals have said belongs solely to the Republicans for years now.

Look, there's a reason even some Democratic strategists are saying this was a horrible thing for Obama to say. The only see I see this getting defused is if the majority of the media accounts focus on the fact that Obama said some voters are "bitter" (as if THAT'S a newsflash) and not on his remarks about people clinging to guns, faith, and xenophobia.

[Toddzilla]

Jeez, if the "MSM" gave 10% of the attention to the asinine things Teflon John McCain says, the democrats would be running unopposed this year.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Jeez, if the "MSM" gave 10% of the attention to the asinine things Teflon John McCain says, the democrats would be running unopposed this year.

Such as? I'm not disagreeing with you out of hand, I'm just curious as to what McCain's said recently that the media hasn't reported.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Jeez, if the "MSM" gave 10% of the attention to the asinine things Teflon John McCain says, the democrats would be running unopposed this year.

Bitter much?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Jeez, if the "MSM" gave 10% of the attention to the asinine things Teflon John McCain says, the democrats would be running unopposed this year.

No, really. You would prefer to have the MSM only focus on the asinine things the enemy has said and ignore your favorites? Right now, there is one race between two opponents and that's where the focus should be. Later in the general, then you see shit and mud fly everywhere. But even then, you would prefer to have them focus on the shit McCain will say and hae said, and not bring up anything bad for Obama?

[Buccaneer]

Barack Obama said Saturday that he didn't word his recent comments at a fundraiser "as well as he should have" but added that the back and forth that developed between Obama and fellow White House hopefuls Hillary Clinton and John McCain is "typical."

Yes he should have, and yes it is. Get used to it. Politicians (and others in leadership positions) have been crucified for saying things less inflammatory. It's part of the game that always have been with us and will always continue.

[st.cronin]

In general I like Obama, and am rooting for him to win the nomination, and those comments made me cringe. I believe he has damaged his campaign, and is perhaps showing some weakness. "Clinging to religion" is a phrase in particular that I think is really going to be harmful. MOST Americans are religious. I think this is much worse than the Reverend Wright thing.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Such as? I'm not disagreeing with you out of hand, I'm just curious as to what McCain's said recently that the media hasn't reported.

No, I'm not trying to say what McCain is saying isn't bein reported, but when he says something that completely belies his qualifications to be commander-in-chief, like not knowing the difference between the Sunni and Shi'ia (getting it wrong 3 times), the press seems (to me anyway) to give him a pass. As if he's just Old Man McCain, the Maverick, so it's to be expected.

Give me a few minutes and I'll whip up a list

[Vegas Vic]

The head to head polls with McCain and Obama have coalesced to about dead even: 45-45. That 90% isn't going to shift much either way, maybe a couple of points in either direction. For the most part, these people have already made up their mind. The election will be decided by the other 10%. A significant portion of these 10% are white, working class voters, and Obama already faced an uphill battle with them. With this latest comment, Obama dug his hole with those particular voters that much deeper,. When asked how damaging Obama's latest comments were on a scale of 10, several political commentators on CNN (including a democratic consultant) said it was a 10.

Going back to that 45 number for Obama. If you keep an eye on that from now until the actual results on election day, it will get higher, but in my opinion it will never get to 50. I’m not talking about the results of any one single poll, but the running poll average on Real Clear Politics.

[sterlingice]

Can we have a few more posts by people predisposed to not like a candidate talking about how horrible each little 24 hour news blurb that will be gone in a couple of days and feign offense to comments that we all actually understand the context of but pretend not to just to take a whack at the latest news cycle nonsense?

SI

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Can we have a few more posts by people predisposed to not like a candidate talking about how horrible each little 24 hour news blurb that will be gone in a couple of days and feign offense to comments that we all actually understand the context of but pretend not to just to take a whack at the latest news cycle nonsense?

SI

I've been trying to keep an open mind. I consistently defended Obama in this thread regarding the revwright thing. You are, of course, free to disregard my opinion, but it is sincere.

[Toddzilla]

Well, my half-hour of searching came up with plenty of stories *about* John McCain saying questionable things, but no actual quotes. For example:

• McCain has claimed 3 times that Iran is training Al-Qaeda.
• McCain consistently mixes up Sunni and Shi'a.
• McCain railed on the mortgage bailout, suggested homeowners should work 2 jobs and skip vacations to pay their way out, then less than 2 weeks later said the government should do all it can to help lenders and homeowners.
• McCain was against torture, then voted against banning it.
• McCain's "spiritual adviser" claims the United States is founded on destroying Islam.
• Despite claiming he was new to congress and learning his way, McCain was almost 50 years old when he voted against an MLK holiday, and he continues to vote against civil rights laws.

Again, nothing specific, just my general feeling - and a failure on my part to back it up with specifics. However still, it would seem to me if Obama made these same gaffes, the media outrage would be tremendous.

[sterlingice]

I wasn't speaking specifically to yours but that was all I thought I was reading over the past 30. It just reminds me of the "undecided" voters after the 2nd or 3rd debate- there is no one truly undecided at that point, just people who pretend to so they can get on tv (or those stupid enough I don't want them voting in elections, but I think those are far fewer).

SI

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Can we have a few more posts by people predisposed to not like a candidate talking about how horrible each little 24 hour news blurb that will be gone in a couple of days and feign offense to comments that we all actually understand the context of but pretend not to just to take a whack at the latest news cycle nonsense?

SI

Probably not. If that's what you're looking for I'd try undecidedandnaivevoters.com.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Well, my half-hour of searching came up with plenty of stories *about* John McCain saying questionable things, but no actual quotes. For example:

• McCain has claimed 3 times that Iran is training Al-Qaeda.
• McCain consistently mixes up Sunni and Shi'a.
• McCain railed on the mortgage bailout, suggested homeowners should work 2 jobs and skip vacations to pay their way out, then less than 2 weeks later said the government should do all it can to help lenders and homeowners.
• McCain was against torture, then voted against banning it.
• McCain's "spiritual adviser" claims the United States is founded on destroying Islam.
• Despite claiming he was new to congress and learning his way, McCain was almost 50 years old when he voted against an MLK holiday, and he continues to vote against civil rights laws.

Again, nothing specific, just my general feeling - and a failure on my part to back it up with specifics. However still, it would seem to me if Obama made these same gaffes, the media outrage would be tremendous.

The claim I'm most familiar with is McCain's mortgage plan, which I believe he announced Thursday or Friday. I did see several conservatives upset that he's basically retreated from his earlier remarks focusing on personal responsibility, and saw that Hillary had called his plan something like "luke warm leftovers" of her plan.

I'm unfamiliar with McCain's "continuing to vote against civil rights laws", which could simply mean McCain has voted against affirmative action or hate crime legislation or any number of issues that aren't really controversial.

And who is McCain's "spiritual advisor"? Are you talking about Hagee?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Probably not. If that's what you're looking for I'd try undecidedandnaivevoters.com.

Well, we have days at FOFC where it's good, insightful conversation. We can string together good conversation and bring a lot of angles together where we can sit there and bring together ideas and I learn a ton that I never would have thought of and I don't think anyone thinks of on their own.

Then there are the days where it's the lame, low hanging fruit that CNN, Fox, and whatever other morons like to glom on to that have no real useful information and it's just the same old partisan bickering. That's what this thread devolved into many pages ago.

SI

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Arles: That would be stupid because people in small towns generally aren't pro-choice. If, however, you came up with a sensible pro-choice comparison, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't understand single issue voting regardless of what that single issue is.

I completely understand single issue voting. However, there isn't one issue that would move me personallyenough to vote that way, but I get why some do. IMO, the difference between Hillary/Obama and McCain might be an extra 3% either way on my taxes or an extra 10-14 months before troop pullbacks in Iraq. Outside of that, not much will change in the grand scheme - the economy will be similar, as will job creation and most other issues (even health care). But, if someone felt strong enough that either candidate would push strongly to limit a woman's right to choose or a person's right to own/carry guns, I could easily see them voting that way if the issue was important enough to them. Same goes for religious issues or even the environment.

[Raiders Army]

There are a lot of rednecks in PA. Don't touch their guns.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

There are a lot of rednecks in PA. Don't touch their guns.

Pennsylvania is a complex state from a political perspective, even though many people think of it as a "blue state". James Carville describes it as "Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, with Alabama in between."

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Arles

I completely understand single issue voting. However, there isn't one issue that would move me personallyenough to vote that way, but I get why some do. IMO, the difference between Hillary/Obama and McCain might be an extra 3% either way on my taxes or an extra 10-14 months before troop pullbacks in Iraq. Outside of that, not much will change in the grand scheme - the economy will be similar, as will job creation and most other issues (even health care). But, if someone felt strong enough that either candidate would push strongly to limit a woman's right to choose or a person's right to own/carry guns, I could easily see them voting that way if the issue was important enough to them. Same goes for religious issues or even the environment.

We're talking about two different things. When I say single issue voters I'm referring to people who will disregard other issues and make their decision only on one factor. For example, voting for the Greenest candidate regardless of foreign or domestic policy, or voting anti-abortion regardless of all other issues.

You're talking about one issue changing the overall balance and I'm talking about one issue being the sole factor.