OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, Dance with Dragons is really kind of a moving pieces around for no reason type of book in its first 2/3rds. Feast for Crows was just so much more interesting - what with in depth inner character monologues showcasing real character development and showing the ravages of war. Dance is just people doing stuff to do stuff. It's not overly dull, but it is a bit long in tooth - not the Tyrion boat ride as much as Jon just going back and forth doing various nothings on the Wall.

[Groundhog]

For me, from the very first page, A Feast for Crows felt jarringly different from all the other books, especially far as the Dorne/Iron Islands chapters are concerned. There was a real need to explore both those places, but it just didn't do anything for me. That combined with the fact that a few of my favourite characters didn't appear, yet one of my least favourites (Arya) did, really made this a slog for me. I flew through the other books, but I kept looking down at the 'time left in book' status message on my kindle as I flicked the pages.

I don't think A Dance with Dragons was amazing either, but I enjoyed parts of it well enough - more so than Feast for Crows, at least.

In general though I think that after book 3, this has had the feel of those fantasy 'epics' that just seem to roll on and on - lots of descriptive paragraphs and chess pieces being moved around, but chapter after chapter of what, at times, feels like text for text's sake - world building over plot.

If it had ended at book 3 (obviously with a 'grander' finale) I'd think it's one of the greatest stories of all time, but now the other books have tainted it a little bit.

I'm on the fence as to whether I would read the next book.

[JPhillips]

Just look at how much the tv series cut from Dance. Some of that may make it's way into next season, but right now the show could move forward and completely skip much of Dance's plots. If they are following the critical components needed to reach Martin's idea of the resolution, that means a large part of the book was text for text's sake.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Just look at how much the tv series cut from Dance. Some of that may make it's way into next season, but right now the show could move forward and completely skip much of Dance's plots. If they are following the critical components needed to reach Martin's idea of the resolution, that means a large part of the book was text for text's sake.

That's one of the main issues I have with large chunks of Dance.

For example, what does all of the Quentyn Martel stuff lead up to? It was like a little side quest by a bunch of characters we didn't really know and weren't terribly interesting that ended with the main character in that quest being burned alive by a dragon. Okay...

Then take Aegon or the whole Big Griff/Little Griff plot. I'll start by saying that I like Big Griff as a character. He is one of the more compelling new characters from the last two books. However, let's say Little Griff really is Aegon.

There are two paths the character takes. One, is that he does his rebellion, it gets crushed and not much happens. That's largely a waste of text, unless it ends up being very interesting or cool. It hasn't been so far.

The other is that Aegon actually does conquer and plays an important role in major events. That's annoying because why introduce a character in Book 5 who plays such a role when you have a lot of other characters from earlier in the series who don't seem to be doing much of anything on the grand stage.

I hope the whole Aegon plot plays out more interesting than it has. If not... Hrmmm...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

For me, from the very first page, A Feast for Crows felt jarringly different from all the other books, especially far as the Dorne/Iron Islands chapters are concerned.

Yep. And that's part of what I loved about it. Also the chapters were far longer than any of the other books and the inner motivations of the characters (especially Jaime and Brienne) were explored in detail. It was absorbing and fascinating for me.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

For example, what does all of the Quentyn Martel stuff lead up to? It was like a little side quest by a bunch of characters we didn't really know and weren't terribly interesting that ended with the main character in that quest being burned alive by a dragon. Okay...

Could have been written better, true, but I think actually it would have worked a LOT better if the original idea of a chronological books would have been done, rather than splitting one story into two haves (or if you read them deliberately recalling what was going on in Dorne at the time).

Because at the time, Arienne was pissed because she thought Doran was giving Dorne to Quentyn - we know what Quentyn is really up to because we heard Doran's badass speech at the end of Feast. But if Quentyn's quest is interspersed with Arienne's uncertainty and not knowing what Doran was really thinking, I believe that whole plot line is far more interesting.

In essence Arienne and Quentyn are both in existence in these books to show what Doran has been plotting and planning this entire time (though Arienne obviously has more to do).

Then take Aegon or the whole Big Griff/Little Griff plot. I'll start by saying that I like Big Griff as a character. He is one of the more compelling new characters from the last two books. However, let's say Little Griff really is Aegon.

There are two paths the character takes. One, is that he does his rebellion, it gets crushed and not much happens. That's largely a waste of text, unless it ends up being very interesting or cool. It hasn't been so far.

The other is that Aegon actually does conquer and plays an important role in major events. That's annoying because why introduce a character in Book 5 who plays such a role when you have a lot of other characters from earlier in the series who don't seem to be doing much of anything on the grand stage.

I've never gotten the criticism of why introduce a character in Book 5 thing. It's an epic world, people will shift in and shift out. I mean, Stannis was introduced in Book 2 (yes, I know people talked him about a little in Book 1). Mance Rayder was introduced in Book 3. Everyone in Dorne and the Iron Islands gets introduced in Book 4 (and no one mentioned Arianne or Euron prior to that book).

And we know that Aegon's Re-Conquest actually does succeed at Griffin's Roost at the end of Dance. We know from the sample chapter of Winds of Winter, that he's supposedly at Storm's End. I feel Aegon actually has a big role regardless of whether he fails - at the very least he gains the eye of Cersei who may ignore other threats. And he may spur Dany onto Westeros (speaking of a dull character arc).

FWIW, while the boat chapters are mostly dull, after they leave the boat, things get interesting and fun (when Connington meets up with the Golden Company, etc).

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If they are following the critical components needed to reach Martin's idea of the resolution, that means a large part of the book was text for text's sake.

I don't think that makes much sense. I mean would you claim that the Lady Stoneheart plot arc was just text for text sake? Or Sansa learning how to play the Game of Thrones from Littlefinger?

The show sometimes cuts interesting and good story lines because it wants to rush to the end. The critical components alone don't necessarily make a story compelling.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I've never gotten the criticism of why introduce a character in Book 5 thing. It's an epic world, people will shift in and shift out. I mean, Stannis was introduced in Book 2 (yes, I know people talked him about a little in Book 1). Mance Rayder was introduced in Book 3. Everyone in Dorne and the Iron Islands gets introduced in Book 4 (and no one mentioned Arianne or Euron prior to that book).

While I agree wholeheartedly regarding Quentyn, I take issue with this. Mance Rayder and Stannis Baratheon were real, tangible characters who were talked about A LOT in the books leading up to their actual introduction. Little Griff comes so far out of nowhere that he almost feels like a deus ex machina plot device.

[ISiddiqui]

They actually weren't talked about that often. Stannis, IIRC, was mentioned like 3-4 times in Book 1 at most.

And as I pointed out in my re-read of Storm of Swords and, especially, Feast for Crows, Jon Connington is mentioned a LOT. Random mentions of him come out of no where - Jamie is sitting at Harrenhal with Red Connington and they have discussion of Jon.

And of course Aegon was mentioned quite a bit. His death is alluded to quite a bit in Dorne. He's just considered dead.

[ISiddiqui]

FWIW, I think the Connington / Aegon reveal gets more interesting if Martin wrote Feast and Dance chronologically rather than geographically. I think he royally screwed up there. In that case, references to Connington in Feast don't get ignored so easily and Connington & Aegon are introduced in the same book as the Dornish and Iron Islanders - Book 4 seems like the start of a new part of the story in that way. Geographically splitting it messes all that careful writing, especially since they came out years apart.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I've never gotten the criticism of why introduce a character in Book 5 thing. It's an epic world, people will shift in and shift out. I mean, Stannis was introduced in Book 2 (yes, I know people talked him about a little in Book 1). Mance Rayder was introduced in Book 3. Everyone in Dorne and the Iron Islands gets introduced in Book 4 (and no one mentioned Arianne or Euron prior to that book).

I got no problem with introducing new characters in book 5 or any other book of the series - I do have a problem with it being at the exclusion of other characters that I've become attached to during the first couple of thousands of pages of the series.

It's a big world, sure, but it's also a fictional story. I've been reading these characters for thousands of pages and I'm a lot more interested in what's happening in Westeros than I am in Dorne or, even more so, across the sea. The initial outline of ASoIaF was a trilogy, and I would've preferred it if the Westeros saga had wrapped up there, with him then free to take the sequels anywhere he wanted with whichever characters he wanted.

I'm sure others disagree, but to me I think he felt the need to extend the series largely because he wanted to explore the rest of his fictional world, which has made it a little like the equivalent of a TV series that had a clear outline and then kept getting extended and drifting away from the initial conclusion. It's a fantastic universe that he has created, no question, but I'd prefer it was explored within the confines of the main plot, rather than by the rapid introduction of new characters, factions, and cultures.

I don't read Fantasy in general because this is how most I've tried tend to feel to me after a few books - I guess 'worldbuilding for worldbuilding's sake' is more accurate.

[ISiddiqui]

Which I guess is fine, but some of us really love that worldbuilding.

[ISiddiqui]

Interesting stuff from GRRM, one acknowledging that the show will likely finish before the books (well, duh), but also:

HBO Might Finish “Game Of Thrones” Before George R.R. Martin Does

Martin also said that the upcoming sixth season will also continue to diverge from the source material, citing the omission of Arianne Martell from the television series and admitting that the show may look for a “quicker alternative route” for the race to the Iron Throne.

It appears Arianne is actually someone who continues to be mega important. And while the end may be the same, they way getting there may be completely different. Which is very interesting - the spoiler may be just who wins in the end, but the rest runs a very different path.

[flere-imsaho]

Someone said to me that the first three books in the series were published within 3 years of each other. Conditioned to considerable delays, I called bullshit and fulsome argument ensued. Then I looked it up: A Song of Ice and Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Crap. Although not technically 3 years.

Also relevant: GRRM Has No Pages

Yet again: I have no issue whatsoever with GRRM taking whatever time he needs/wants to finish writing books. I also wouldn't hold it against him (or any other offer) to not actually finish writing a particular book or series.

No, my issue is the way he's trolled his readership over and over (though he mostly seems to have topped now) with dates and predictions on which he simply can't deliver.

Anyway, caveat over, back to the main topic.

I remain convinced that:

1. He won't actually finish the series.
2. HBO will beat him anyway.
3. Something will get published that'll be called (by him) the 6th book, but it'll be somewhat dire.
4. Novelizations of the TV show will finish the book series, if anything does. This could also be posthumous.
5. If it's not posthumous, GRRM will proclaim himself on the forefront of a new paradigm of multi-media storytelling.

[stevew]

Blame Ryan Fitzpatrick

[Julio Riddols]

I blame Daivd Winter... It all makes sense now. Delayed release dates.. Winter is coming.. I think the new book is going to be about beer tents.

[JAG]

I think 2 is guaranteed. Heck, he might not even get book 6 out before season 6, let alone book 7 by next year. I do think 7 will be quicker to finish than the last few books because he knows where he's going, just not the getting there (I feel like I probably said that about a year ago in this thread, not going back to search for it though).

2 books released over 15 years is bound to be a bit frustrating for people who like them.

From the looks of it, reading the tea leaves, book 6 seems likely to publish in 2016 though.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

1. He won't actually finish the series.
2. HBO will beat him anyway.
3. Something will get published that'll be called (by him) the 6th book, but it'll be somewhat dire.
4. Novelizations of the TV show will finish the book series, if anything does. This could also be posthumous.
5. If it's not posthumous, GRRM will proclaim himself on the forefront of a new paradigm of multi-media storytelling.

I think you'll be batting 1.00.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Which I guess is fine, but some of us really love that worldbuilding.

I love worldbuilding too, but you can't be a great writer without finishing the story.

Frankly, it's Martin himself who's done a disservice to, er, himself. Clearly there are a lot of stories to be told about Westeros, and he's spent some time (Dunk & Egg) telling those stories as well.

Well, just imagine if he had focused on finishing up the main story. Then he'd have all this time to write short stories to flesh out the rest of Westeros, present-day and otherwise).

[JAG]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I love worldbuilding too, but you can't be a great writer without finishing the story.

Frankly, it's Martin himself who's done a disservice to, er, himself. Clearly there are a lot of stories to be told about Westeros, and he's spent some time (Dunk & Egg) telling those stories as well.

Well, just imagine if he had focused on finishing up the main story. Then he'd have all this time to write short stories to flesh out the rest of Westeros, present-day and otherwise).

You're saying he's doing himself a disservice as if you know better tha he does how he wants to live his life. I think for a time he had nothing much more than the books he was writing (he was in the zone if you want to look at it that way) and little in the way of other distractions, no one who had been hounding him for interviews for months, or requests that have gone on for over a year to speak at some convention. Now he's more of a celebrity than writer and I imagine he gets a lot more pleasure out of interacting with fans and it's a much easier life to talk about what you've done than to go grind out the rest of the series.

He's kind of like the anti-Bill Belichick. That's a guy who (at least outwardly) only really cares about coaching. He's not into autobiographies (yet), doing a million interviews other than what's required, partying in Vegas, and so on. Martin does not have a singular focus on writing as much as he can about the world he's created. Heck, he's written other books while in the middle of working on Song of Ice and Fire.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JAG

You're saying he's doing himself a disservice as if you know better tha he does how he wants to live his life.

I do so based on the evidence of how he's actually lived his life. As you point out, he's enjoying being a celebrity, writing screenplays for HBO, and doing short stories. If we assume he actually enjoys all that, I'm just saying that if he had buckled down and finished the saga in less than 5 books, he'd be able to do all that he's doing now, without all the opprobrium.

[Edward64]

Its obvious that he's lost the will and become too distracted to finish the series. He's disappointed his book fans but he's gained a ton of others from the HBO series (who were probably never going to read the books anyway).

Assuming he has shared with HBO how it should unfold, I'm okay with this. I've given up on him finishing the series and just want to know how it all plays out.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think he's doing himself a disservice at all. Song of Ice and Fire is a slog - especially in keeping everyone straight and not causing butterfly effects (the checking and rechecking must be Hell). It's simply more fun and interesting sometimes to write a short story about conflicts that happened 100 years prior to the Song of Ice and Fire novels.

I enjoy living in Martin's world. I think he'll eventually finish the books, but yes, the show will definitely get there first.

[Zinto]

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

[Coffee Warlord]

I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

I am Jack's total lack of surprise.

[JAG]

Flere, thought this was interesting after our discussion the other day. The juggling act of Martin wanting to finish the series and 'do stuff' (albeit just one thing)

I did a lot of travelling last year. Probably too much. You don't have to chide me about that. I know, believe me, I know. I am trying to cut down on travel this year and in subsequent years, at least until Ice & Fire is done.

But it's a struggle. I love travel -- not the flying, but being there, seeing other parts of the world, meeting my readers. As a kid, I never went anywhere at all except in my imagination, so now, when I have the means, travel is hard to resist. It's a big wonderful world.

Also, I am not getting any younger (some of you love to remind me of that). Travel is fun, but it can also be taxing. I am all too aware that if I don't take some of these trips now, age and health may preclude my ever taking them. Who knows what awaits me (or you, or you, or you) five years or ten years down the road?

[hoopsguy]

I wonder if Deadspin's "There are no pages" inspired GRRM's post, as he made reference to it early in that blog entry.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JAG

Flere, thought this was interesting after our discussion the other day. The juggling act of Martin wanting to finish the series and 'do stuff' (albeit just one thing)

I mean, I feel for him. Since he's a) set a precedent that he writes big books (in this series, at least) with a lot of detail and b) essentially plotted out the rest of the plot, what he has in front of him is a long, hard slog to put words to paper and edit up to his standards. It's got to be a huge millstone around his neck. I don't wish that on anyone.

Plus, he's getting older. I'm sure there's part of him that's ready to buckle down and slog it out until it's done, but at what cost, when all of these fun things, which are the result of his previous hard work, are available?

If it were me, I'd swallow my pride and partner with another writer to get the last two books done, tbh, and go back to enjoying life.

[stevew]

It's crazy how quickly Bran Stark has aged. Kid is like the white Greg Oden.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by stevew

It's crazy how quickly Bran Stark has aged. Kid is like the white Greg Oden.

Guess it's fitting he's playing the character with mangled legs, then.

[Zinto]

I was holding out hope. I haven't been burned by him for anywhere as near as long as most people(I was five when a Game of Thrones was first released). I haven't watched the show yet and I am still on the fence if I am going to. I had my heart set on reading first and watching second. I just don't think the reading part is ever going to happen.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Guess it's fitting he's playing the character with mangled legs, then.

Lol, I didn't even think about that.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Zinto

I was holding out hope. I haven't been burned by him for anywhere as near as long as most people(I was five when a Game of Thrones was first released). I haven't watched the show yet and I am still on the fence if I am going to. I had my heart set on reading first and watching second. I just don't think the reading part is ever going to happen.

Just accept the reading part is not going to happen (there is at least 2 more books). The HBO series is worthy of watching, my suggestion is just watch it.

[Galaril]

Yeah just saw the post by Martin from the 2nd of this month on his blog and not surprised either. Also, he mentions the TV series this coming season is likely going to start to spoil the future books in some parts which kills the books for me. I will watch the series for as long as it is on enjoy that and read other things.

[PilotMan]

Just imagine how much money he is going to lose out on. I plan to still read the books, but I'm not waiting around and not watching the show either. I would think that sales would be down significantly from Dance.

[MrBug708]

I'd imagine he makes more from the hbo series

[Barkeep49]

I'd imagine he makes more from new fans created by the HBO series than from old fans who won't now read the books.

[ISiddiqui]

Looks like a new Arianne chapter (as she's getting closer to Aegon and Connington storming Storm's End) has been put up on GRRM's site:

Excerpt from the Winds of Winter | George R.R. Martin

[flere-imsaho]

He's just basically going to publish everything on his blog at this point, right?

[ISiddiqui]

One chapter a year would take a while...

Though it does seem that Aegon is going to have some substantial effect on the story in the books.

[Edward64]

Re-watching Season 6 right now and looking forward to tonight's premiere.

Ready to see how it ends and for the spin-offs.

[miked]

Stuck in Ireland for the next 3 weeks and can't watch my HBOgo. Grrr...

[MrBug708]

Is this going to be the official thread or will the TV one be the official thread?

[NobodyHere]

I've always thought of this thread as the official one for the books

[Chief Rum]

If I recall correctly, we keep a book and TV thread separate, since the two mediums both include elements that don't appear in the other, so, spoilers.

It's less important now, I suppose, since the TV series has caught and passed up the book series, but there are still definite spoilery things out there, so I would stick with this being the book thread, and going to find the TV thread (or creating a new one) for the HBO show.

[stevew]

Supposed ‘Game Of Thrones’ Buff Hasn’t Even Finished Books Yet - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[JaneSmith]

Yesterday I saw my favorite movie Titanic. I think it's a genius film with an unpredictable plot. Do you like it?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JaneSmith

Yesterday I saw my favorite movie Titanic. I think it's a genius film with an unpredictable plot. Do you like it?

Rate The Last Movie You Watched - Front Office Football Central

[JPhillips]

That bot needs some work. Titanic is very predictable. The boat sinks.

[Edward64]

I guess its good he's finished the first book in a new duology.

I do want to read it but I'll wait until the second book has a confirmed publish date.

BTW - I really wish he would get someone else to finish writing GOT for him (like Brandon Sanderson). He should really just fess up to his fans that he just doesn't have it anymore for that series.

Fire and Blood | George R.R. Martin

With all the fire and fury fans have come to expect from internationally bestselling author George R. R. Martin, this is the first volume of the definitive two-part history of the Targaryens in Westeros.

Centuries before the events of A Game of Thrones, House Targaryen—the only family of dragonlords to survive the Doom of Valyria—took up residence on Dragonstone. Fire and Blood begins their tale with the legendary Aegon the Conqueror, creator of the Iron Throne, and goes on to recount the generations of Targaryens who fought to hold that iconic seat, all the way up to the civil war that nearly tore their dynasty apart.