Yet another school shooting.

[QuikSand]

This whole absurd business of "no way to stop nutcases with guns coming to schools to shoot up kids, so we'll do THIS instead" smacks of these stories where someplace is overrun with rats so they decide to bring in a bunch of bobcats or something to eat the rats... and then bobcats take over and start eating babies and such.

It's like a dumb horror film, you can see the terrible decision taking shape, everyone agrees it's terrible, and... there they go.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Our kids' elementary school had one main entrance which was on a buzzer system, but there were a number of doors out (gym, cafeteria, etc.). Our HS had more doors in but they were typically locked (or on card access).

Of course the elementary school was also overcrowded and had a number of mobile classrooms outside of the school...

My daughter’s school is set up like that. It’s right next to the police station also. But if somebody wanted to get in, all they have to do is shoot out some windows or something. I’m pretty confident there would be a police response within 1 to 2 minutes, but given the Dayton thing, 20 kids could die in that amount of time.

[cuervo72]

I mean, the reality is that if you have such a gun and have the will and no qualms about being caught or killed, you can shoot a lot of people. It's not that difficult. Schools just happen to be popular targets because that's where most of these shooters spent a lot of time.

[BYU 14]

This is not getting any better for local law enforcement in Uvalde

Border Patrol Tactical Team Was Ordered to Hold Back Before Confronting the Gunman

[JPhillips]

If they really thought no one was living in the classroom(which is dubious given the sounds of gunfire) what was the plan? We're they going to starve him out? It would seem like a believe that there was only the shooter would provide you greater impulse to storm the room.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If they really thought no one was living in the classroom(which is dubious given the sounds of gunfire) what was the plan? We're they going to starve him out? It would seem like a believe that there was only the shooter would provide you greater impulse to storm the room.

They're lying. There were countless calls from kids in the school to 911 begging for help. A witness says a child was killed when the police called out asking if anyone needed help. We know that one child died later at the hospital which means they were alive in the classroom.

Cops are blaming "cyber gaming" for the shooting.

[RainMaker]

https://t.co/KxrGUwN90R pic.twitter.com/1AkncB5SlY

— Cody Baier, Certified Bleach Demon (@LordShmeckie) May 27, 2022

[GrantDawg]

Even my hardcore gun-loving, cop apologist former BIL on Facebook is saying the police really screwed the pooch on this one. There really isn't a satisfying defense for their actions here. Reports are saying the even tried to stop Border Patrol from going in. I mean, WTF?

[RainMaker]

If only someone could have told them kids were alive in the classroom.

Student calls to 911:
12:03—whispered she's in room 112
12:10—said multiple dead
12:13—called again
12:16—says 8-9 students alive
12:19—student calls from room 111
12:21—3 shots heard on call
12:36—another call
12:43—asks for police
12:47—asks for policehttps://t.co/CzkuF1llq1

— Mike Baker (@ByMikeBaker) May 27, 2022

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Even my hardcore gun-loving, cop apologist former BIL on Facebook is saying the police really screwed the pooch on this one. There really isn't a satisfying defense for their actions here. Reports are saying the even tried to stop Border Patrol from going in. I mean, WTF?

Haven't been in OT for a while, but just popping in to emphasize a comment my wife made yesterday morning, that this is all headed toward the following from Fox News and it will be the primary right-wing talking point fairly soon:



"The bottom line is that Officers Jose Gonzalez and Carlos Flores did not follow protocol, and Vice Principal Isabella Garcia was supposed to check the doors while this murderer was outside for 12 minutes, and she failed at her duty as well. That's why these kids are dead."


(And oh YES, they will say their names pretty much every time, assuming they are Latino-sounding.)

[flere-imsaho]

Sounds about right, Ben.

[BYU 14]

So I finally had a chance to talk to my son in law enforcement this morning (He is in Italy and ahead 8 hours, so it took a while to catch up)

Coincidentally he also conducted an active shooter drill just last week where he is at and the protocol he gave me pretty much matches what the Texas Director of Public Safety is saying now.

In that situation, you don't wait to establish perimeter and access points, you identify where the threat is, then go in and neutralize that threat....immediately.

The obvious thing here is how woefully unprepared for this situation this police force was. In addition to their own incompetence, they made the Border Patrol tactical unit stand down, and local police had authority in that scenario, unless the tactical team was local department SWAT, in which case they can decide to go in or not. (Also curious local SWAT was not on scene when the Border Patrol team got there, though they may not have had an official SWAT team.)

He assumed, which is also along my lines of thinking, that they have likely never practiced this situation. It is a small town 15 K population, with little violent crime, an aging, complacent police force and commanders woefully lacking in tactical training/experience.

It was a perfect recipe for disaster and they will rightfully (hopefully) be held to high accountability for this, as there is never an excuse to botch a situation of this magnitude so badly.

More importantly, since our politicians are, as usual, going to do jack shit about this, is I hope departments across the country take note of this and allocate resources to preparing for and drilling this scenario. Because, we know this will not be the last time.

[CrimsonFox]

I watched the local cop give a news brief about how they didn't have such and such complete so didn't go in....i'm like WTF....just go all bruce willis and take him out? You got a vest? GO!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

So I finally had a chance to talk to my son in law enforcement this morning (He is in Italy and ahead 8 hours, so it took a while to catch up)

Coincidentally he also conducted an active shooter drill just last week where he is at and the protocol he gave me pretty much matches what the Texas Director of Public Safety is saying now.

In that situation, you don't wait to establish perimeter and access points, you identify where the threat is, then go in and neutralize that threat....immediately.

The obvious thing here is how woefully unprepared for this situation this police force was. In addition to their own incompetence, they made the Border Patrol tactical unit stand down, and local police had authority in that scenario, unless the tactical team was local department SWAT, in which case they can decide to go in or not. (Also curious local SWAT was not on scene when the Border Patrol team got there, though they may not have had an official SWAT team.)

He assumed, which is also along my lines of thinking, that they have likely never practiced this situation. It is a small town 15 K population, with little violent crime, an aging, complacent police force and commanders woefully lacking in tactical training/experience.

It was a perfect recipe for disaster and they will rightfully (hopefully) be held to high accountability for this, as there is never an excuse to botch a situation of this magnitude so badly.

It is a small town but they did have a SWAT team with all the fancy equipment and gear. They also had extensive training in active shooters, including at schools. In fact, they had toured that exact school just 2 months ago during training. Their budget was the largest percent of the municipal budget.

The school district had also doubled their security spending over the past 4 years. This included full-time armed resource officers who no one can figure out where they were during the shooting (the Police said they didn't have that information).

Here is the SWAT team cosplaying with their weapons.

Originally Posted by BYU 14

More importantly, since our politicians are, as usual, going to do jack shit about this, is I hope departments across the country take note of this and allocate resources to preparing for and drilling this scenario. Because, we know this will not be the last time.

Resources were allocated and preparations were made.

[BYU 14]

Well, what you add only makes it more egregious then, though to be fair there is a difference in practical tactical training and play acting scenarios. Who knows what these guys were doing, because it certainly didn't lead to the desired mitigation here.

[PilotMan]

They would have been in there in a heartbeat if it was a 'black' man or an 'illegal'. No fucking questions asked. I'm with Cube on this one.

[flere-imsaho]

At every turn, this gets even worse.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

(And oh YES, they will say their names pretty much every time, assuming they are Latino-sounding.)

Not just the cops, the victims. Trump made sure to read off their names. You know the reason. And then he danced at the end of his speech.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

the primary right-wing talking point

I think you mean "official Republican."

[Atocep]

This is the border patrol agent that stopped the shooter. He was part of the group that broke orders from the local police and broke off from evacuating kids to take the shooter out.

[QuikSand]

I have spent the past few days researching the training of Uvalde officers, including the tactics they were expected to use to halt school shooters.

The documents are jarring. Here’s a thread of our findings so far.

1/9

— Mike Baker (@ByMikeBaker) May 28, 2022

Really tough read...

I guess it's just going to reinforce pre-existing beliefs, though. If you're for gun control, you see this as a damning indictment of the "good guys with guns" argument. And if you're against gun control, I suppose you'll find this to be evidence that we need more GGWG, more training for GGWG, fewer doors, or other such things... that Uvalde was a unique failure, not a real indictment of our overall approach to guns and school security.

[QuikSand]

Yeah, that leads me to my latest gripe with this... with so much focus on the cops not going in to get the bad guy, we might end up with a collective sense that that was the real takeaway from Uvalde... that police might fail in the critical moment, despite weapons and training.

No, the real takeaway was that on his 18th birthday, a walking red flag of a kid was able to buy two unbelievably overpowered weapons of war and literally thousands of rounds of ammunition without anyone knowing about it, immediately making his poorly formed, idle pre-18 plans to do something awful suddenly very realistic and obtainable.

If in this country that kid had to go through extensive training, background checking, and so forth to obtain a simple handgun or rifle, of the sort one might want to help defend one's home or to hunt for sport... there is simply no chance that he "finds a way" to commit the atrocity he did, on the scale he did. Another obscene talking point from the bought and paid for 2A defenders.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Yeah, that leads me to my latest gripe with this... with so much focus on the cops not going in to get the bad guy, we might end up with a collective sense that that was the real takeaway from Uvalde... that police might fail in the critical moment, despite weapons and training.

No, the real takeaway was that on his 18th birthday, a walking red flag of a kid was able to buy two unbelievably overpowered weapons of war and literally thousands of rounds of ammunition without anyone knowing about it, immediately making his poorly formed, idle pre-18 plans to do something awful suddenly very realistic and obtainable.

If in this country that kid had to go through extensive training, background checking, and so forth to obtain a simple handgun or rifle, of the sort one might want to help defend one's home or to hunt for sport... there is simply no chance that he "finds a way" to commit the atrocity he did, on the scale he did. Another obscene talking point from the bought and paid for 2A defenders.

Perfectly stated.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Yeah, that leads me to my latest gripe with this... with so much focus on the cops not going in to get the bad guy, we might end up with a collective sense that that was the real takeaway from Uvalde... that police might fail in the critical moment, despite weapons and training.

No, the real takeaway was that on his 18th birthday, a walking red flag of a kid was able to buy two unbelievably overpowered weapons of war and literally thousands of rounds of ammunition without anyone knowing about it, immediately making his poorly formed, idle pre-18 plans to do something awful suddenly very realistic and obtainable.

If in this country that kid had to go through extensive training, background checking, and so forth to obtain a simple handgun or rifle, of the sort one might want to help defend one's home or to hunt for sport... there is simply no chance that he "finds a way" to commit the atrocity he did, on the scale he did. Another obscene talking point from the bought and paid for 2A defenders.

To be clear, this was precisely my wife's point--that it would probably be a successful strategy for deflecting the discussion.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

"The bottom line is that Officers Jose Gonzalez and Carlos Flores did not follow protocol, and Vice Principal Isabella Garcia was supposed to check the doors while this murderer was outside for 12 minutes, and she failed at her duty as well. That's why these kids are dead."

Apparently Hannity had a former Israeli Special Ops guy on his show last night who said that Chief Pedro Arredondo needs to resign.

Uvalde CISD police leadership needs to go, Natsec expert says | Fox News


(I mean, he does, but here we go...)

[Lathum]

The NRA Country Concert Has Been Canceled Says Performer Jacob Bryant - Rolling Stone

[Austin90]

It's... rather disheartening that we have a thread for school shootings ongoing for 7 years...

[Edward64]

Good read.

Two Professors Found What Creates a Mass Shooter. Will Politicians Pay Attention? - POLITICO

Peterson and Densley also compiled detailed life histories on 180 shooters, speaking to their spouses, parents, siblings, childhood friends, work colleagues and teachers. As for the gunmen themselves, most don’t survive their carnage, but five who did talked to Peterson and Densely from prison, where they were serving life sentences. The researchers also found several people who planned a mass shooting but changed their mind.

Their findings, also published in the 2021 book, The Violence Project: How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic, reveal striking commonalities among the perpetrators of mass shootings and suggest a data-backed, mental health-based approach could identify and address the next mass shooter before he pulls the trigger — if only politicians are willing to actually engage in finding and funding targeted solutions.

The making of a monster.

There’s this really consistent pathway. Early childhood trauma seems to be the foundation, whether violence in the home, sexual assault, parental suicides, extreme bullying. Then you see the build toward hopelessness, despair, isolation, self-loathing, oftentimes rejection from peers. That turns into a really identifiable crisis point where they’re acting differently. Sometimes they have previous suicide attempts.

What’s different from traditional suicide is that the self-hate turns against a group. They start asking themselves, “Whose fault is this?” Is it a racial group or women or a religious group, or is it my classmates? The hate turns outward. There’s also this quest for fame and notoriety.

Not just gun control but also address mental health.

POLITICO: So, what are the solutions?

Densley: There are things we can do right now as individuals, like safe storage of firearms or something as simple as checking in with your kid.

Peterson: Then we really need resources at institutions like schools. We need to build teams to investigate when kids are in crisis and then link those kids to mental health services. The problem is that in a lot of places, those services are not there. There’s no community mental health and no school-based mental health. Schools are the ideal setting because it doesn’t require a parent to take you there. A lot of perpetrators are from families where the parents are not particularly proactive about mental health appointments.

[tarcone]

Ban guns. Create a militia system backed by the federal government that gives people that want to be trained long guns.

They can hunt or just do practice.

Im done

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Good read.

Two Professors Found What Creates a Mass Shooter. Will Politicians Pay Attention? - POLITICO

The making of a monster.


Not just gun control but also address mental health.

And absolutely on point. Large resources need to go into mental healt care, especially in the teen years. There should be social workers, therapist, and at least one doctor on staff in every school. Of course, that is never going to happen.

[Fidatelo]

Preface: I'm Canadian so I don't fully know what your laws are or how they vary federally or by state. Maybe my idea is already in place and does nothing or something. Anyways...



I feel like a good first step might be some kind of graduated licensing system similar to driving. When you turn 18 you can start using a gun with a bunch of restrictions: type of gun, ammo, locations, times, etc. Then as you get older and your record stays clean and maybe you pass a couple of firearms courses you slowly gain additional access. Maybe it take 5-10 years without any infractions before you are given carte blanche. It doesn't prevent citizens from arming and defending themselves, creating militias, or otherwise being allowed to bear arms, it just puts up some reasonable barriers to going from 0 to 6000 rounds of ammo and a machine gun on your 18th birthday.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Preface: I'm Canadian so I don't fully know what your laws are or how they vary federally or by state. Maybe my idea is already in place and does nothing or something. Anyways...



I feel like a good first step might be some kind of graduated licensing system similar to driving. When you turn 18 you can start using a gun with a bunch of restrictions: type of gun, ammo, locations, times, etc. Then as you get older and your record stays clean and maybe you pass a couple of firearms courses you slowly gain additional access. Maybe it take 5-10 years without any infractions before you are given carte blanche. It doesn't prevent citizens from arming and defending themselves, creating militias, or otherwise being allowed to bear arms, it just puts up some reasonable barriers to going from 0 to 6000 rounds of ammo and a machine gun on your 18th birthday.

nope. Violate ma second amendment rights!! Murica!!!

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Preface: I'm Canadian so I don't fully know what your laws are or how they vary federally or by state. Maybe my idea is already in place and does nothing or something. Anyways...



I feel like a good first step might be some kind of graduated licensing system similar to driving. When you turn 18 you can start using a gun with a bunch of restrictions: type of gun, ammo, locations, times, etc. Then as you get older and your record stays clean and maybe you pass a couple of firearms courses you slowly gain additional access. Maybe it take 5-10 years without any infractions before you are given carte blanche. It doesn't prevent citizens from arming and defending themselves, creating militias, or otherwise being allowed to bear arms, it just puts up some reasonable barriers to going from 0 to 6000 rounds of ammo and a machine gun on your 18th birthday.

This makes complete sense. This is the current situation:

This 13-year-old tried to buy porn, lottery tickets, and a gun. Guess which one he got. - Vox

[QuikSand]

there's a story making the rounds today from last night - a jackass with an AR-15 started shooting at a group of people at an outdoor party in Charleston WV but was killed by an armed partygoer, before he could kill anyone

look for this to make a super helpful talking point in the days ahead for the forces of "see there's not a real problem with too many nutjobs with assault weapons"

i'm glad nobody was hurt, of course, but am preemptively saddened by how effective this will prove to be

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Really tough read...

If I ignored one of our clearly-written SOPs at work in the manner that these cops ignored their clearly-written training, I'd likely be fired and could also be fined and potentially face criminal prosecution.

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If in this country that kid had to go through extensive training, background checking, and so forth to obtain a simple handgun or rifle, of the sort one might want to help defend one's home or to hunt for sport... there is simply no chance that he "finds a way" to commit the atrocity he did, on the scale he did. Another obscene talking point from the bought and paid for 2A defenders.

Really, we're asking for nothing more arduous than what kids have to go through to get a driving license. Even less arduous than what we ask teenage girls to go through to obtain an abortion in, say, Texas.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

This makes complete sense. This is the current situation:

This 13-year-old tried to buy porn, lottery tickets, and a gun. Guess which one he got. - Vox

My pro gun friends tell me this isn't possible and always list off the stuff they have to do in order to legally buy a gun.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Atocep

My pro gun friends tell me this isn't possible and always list off the stuff they have to do in order to legally buy a gun.

It likely varies by state but the loophole is alive and in use in Texas and many other states. The non-licensed gun dealers aren't required to do any kind of background checks or even ask any questions. They may ask for an id but they may not.

I went to one with my FiL and his brother a few years back. It was depressing.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Atocep

My pro gun friends tell me this isn't possible and always list off the stuff they have to do in order to legally buy a gun.

If they go to a licensed gun dealer in their private shop, sure. My last one, consisted of me waiting roughly 20 minutes after filling out the paperwork and showing ID.

Answering an ad for a private gun sale, I was asked on the phone, "you don't have a criminal record right?" Guy then said depending on when I could meet him, he would meet me or send his son, no clue how old his kid was. Didn't get it because he wasn't going to come down much cheaper than a brand new one.

I have never been to a gun show, but from what I have heard, the video showing the kid getting one is pretty much on point.

So, in two of the three 'legal' gun buying options the opportunity exists to get a loophole weapon.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

It likely varies by state but the loophole is alive and in use in Texas and many other states. The non-licensed gun dealers aren't required to do any kind of background checks or even ask any questions. They may ask for an id but they may not.

I went to one with my FiL and his brother a few years back. It was depressing.

If a kid is even remotely resourceful, going to a show isn't necessary. Some of y'all are aware of this: a niece of mine committed suicide a few years ago with a gun. She was very liberal politically, as are both of her parents, so it's not like she was running around immersed in knowledge of gun culture and how to get one easily. But when she decided she wanted to end her life, she bought a gun in a private sale through sort of a "craigslist for guns" web site. As best as anyone can tell, from the time she made first contact with the seller until the time she fired the shot was about 3 hours. She was 19, but there's no reason to believe the seller checked her ID or anything like that. I just checked, and the site is still there. Beyond all of the handguns, there are tons of rifles (yes, including AR-15s) and even multiple AK-47s and AK-74s (all the ones I checked claimed to be semiautomatic...maybe for legal reasons???) for sale here right here in Greensboro, and there are listings in all 50 states.


My assumption is that the general public isn't up in arms about sites like this because all of the other methods are so easy that no high-profile killer has gone this route, and therefore it's not all that well-known that you can do this. But it certainly appears to be the easiest way to avoid any sort of checks whatsoever.

[HerRealName]

Sorry for your loss, that's just awful.

The thing that shocked me the most about the gun show was the people selling guns out of the back of their trucks in the parking lot. You didn't even need to pay the 5 or 10 dollars to go inside, just walk around the parking lot and pretty much everything was available.

[RainMaker]

Meet the TX man who’s making customized caskets for each of the 19 young victims and two teachers from the school shooting in #Uvalde. Trey Ganem visited with the families last week so each casket is personalized to include each child's interests.

��: SoulShine Industries pic.twitter.com/eeoOZHcrfF

— John-Carlos Estrada (@Mr_JCE) May 31, 2022

[Ksyrup]

Among the things they appear to have lied about - blaming a teacher for leaving a door propped open.

The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde ISD police force are no longer cooperating with the @TxDPS investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary and the state’s review of police response, multiple law enforcement sources told @ABC
w/ @JoshMargolin

— Aaron Katersky (@AaronKatersky) May 31, 2022

[albionmoonlight]

I thought that the law enforcement position was "if you've got nothing to hide, then why aren't you talking?"

Of course, it is pretty clear that they have a hell of a lot to hide, so at least they aren't being inconsistent.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just a little sidebar: is it getting much play that the school police chief had just been elected to the local city council there? And that now his swearing in ceremony has been at least delayed?

(I saw that in an AP article about the tensions in the town, just wondered if that was widely known or a largely unmentioned)

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just a little sidebar: is it getting much play that the school police chief had just been elected to the local city council there? And that now his swearing in ceremony has been at least delayed?

(I saw that in an AP article about the tensions in the town, just wondered if that was widely known or a largely unmentioned)

I had seen that before in an article, (his election) but it was mentioned almost as an afterthought

[QuikSand]

STAY PISSED OFF

[RainMaker]

I did see this. Seems like they felt it would be in poor taste right after the shooting. Although I'm guessing he might want to disappear for a while and might not take the position after all. Seems like they've all lawyered up.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/30/us/uv...ned/index.html

[RainMaker]

Guess he did get sworn in.

BREAKING: Uvalde ISD Chief Pete Arredondo was officially sworn in as a city council member today, Mayor Don McLaughlin confirms in a statement. This comes hours after DPS said he is not responding to a request for a followup interview. pic.twitter.com/yKG1ed68AE

— Tony Plohetski (@tplohetski) June 1, 2022

[CrimsonFox]

my foggy eyes and foggy brain read the title of this thread as "Yes! Another school shooting."

I really think some people feel that way

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Meet the TX man who’s making customized caskets for each of the 19 young victims and two teachers from the school shooting in #Uvalde. Trey Ganem visited with the families last week so each casket is personalized to include each child's interests.

��: SoulShine Industries pic.twitter.com/eeoOZHcrfF

— John-Carlos Estrada (@Mr_JCE) May 31, 2022

this breaks my heart. it's so beautiful