The Walking Dead -- TV Series Thread

[Chief Rum]

I am curious then if that other culprit (presumeably a group) will suddenly show up in next week's finale, during the presumed firefight to come. What if this new threat is greater than the Governor to the prison or the prison to the Governor, and then they then need to join forces to fight off this new threat? How odd would that be?

I can completely see them doing that.

[Chief Rum]

Another thought, but not really about last night but about current humans in the world at this point.

I am just thinking of time since the outbreak.

Just going back through the series in my mind, I think it is, at minimum, 14-15 months since the outbreak. Only reason I am not sure it is longer is because I don't think we have reached a second winter yet (first one the group spent "wandering" after Herschel's farm in Season Two and before the prison in Season Three).

So we reach Season Four and look at who we meet. Most of the refugees taken in at the prison seem to be fairly untouched by the outbreak, or still pretty innocent. Not just talking the Woodbury types, but "the Decatur group", other refugees, etc. Then we get the two yokels Rick and Carol met on their supply run. Then we get this seemingly untouched, little affected family the Governor has found, and Martinez's group seems to have some innocents as well.

My thinking is, how on Earth can such humans still exist in this world at this point? I am thinking every living human you now meet in this world should have been tried and tested survivors. People who have killed numerous zombies and probably humans as well, and who are doing what they can to survive. This is Darwin's theory at its finest. The fittest survive.

So how are we still running into people who don't seem to have a clue how to live in this world? This is a disconnect for me I have not been able to put together.

[Chief Rum]

Last thought that came up while typing my last post...

...could that unknown encampment killer group be in some way connected to Carol?

[hawk4669]

For those of you who read the comic and watch the show (and are up to date on both....)

Spoiler

Could the other group possibly be Negan and the Saviors from the comics? I know it is WAY early to introduce them per the comic story line. Do we think that the writers are trying to find SOME way to unite the Prison group and the Gov's group against another bigger human threat? I hope not as I enjoy the Governor as a bad guy....but as much as they have tweaked the story so far I wouldn't put it past them. Putting Negan in also makes some other high profile character deaths easier for them to make happen.

Just my two cents.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Another thought, but not really about last night but about current humans in the world at this point.

I am just thinking of time since the outbreak.

Just going back through the series in my mind, I think it is, at minimum, 14-15 months since the outbreak. Only reason I am not sure it is longer is because I don't think we have reached a second winter yet (first one the group spent "wandering" after Herschel's farm in Season Two and before the prison in Season Three).

So we reach Season Four and look at who we meet. Most of the refugees taken in at the prison seem to be fairly untouched by the outbreak, or still pretty innocent. Not just talking the Woodbury types, but "the Decatur group", other refugees, etc. Then we get the two yokels Rick and Carol met on their supply run. Then we get this seemingly untouched, little affected family the Governor has found, and Martinez's group seems to have some innocents as well.

My thinking is, how on Earth can such humans still exist in this world at this point? I am thinking every living human you now meet in this world should have been tried and tested survivors. People who have killed numerous zombies and probably humans as well, and who are doing what they can to survive. This is Darwin's theory at its finest. The fittest survive.

So how are we still running into people who don't seem to have a clue how to live in this world? This is a disconnect for me I have not been able to put together.

I think this goes to Rick's "three questions" point.

I think there would still be people who aren't really "tried and tested survivors", especially those in a large group who sort of follow the pack and rely on a select few to do the really dangerous tasks.

Those two doofuses, for example, that Rick and Carol ran into said they were with a group that got wiped out. They acknowledged that they got lucky in surviving, while the others got wiped out. Eventually those people will be thinned, but so will the "tried and tested" folks, because they will be the ones who are doing the more dangerous jobs and will have a higher chance of getting hurt, infected or killed.

It's been about a year, year and a half, since this whole thing went down? I think you'd still have some folks who aren't quite hard core yet.

[CleBrownsfan]

Bingo - I think hawk just nailed it! I never thought of this and now I can see the story going in that direction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by hawk4669

For those of you who read the comic and watch the show (and are up to date on both....)

Spoiler

Could the other group possibly be Negan and the Saviors from the comics? I know it is WAY early to introduce them per the comic story line. Do we think that the writers are trying to find SOME way to unite the Prison group and the Gov's group against another bigger human threat? I hope not as I enjoy the Governor as a bad guy....but as much as they have tweaked the story so far I wouldn't put it past them. Putting Negan in also makes some other high profile character deaths easier for them to make happen.

Just my two cents.

I think my answer has to be spoilered as well ..

Spoiler

From the moment we saw the tank sitting in Martinez' "town", I've been expecting the mid-season finale to simply be the comic book ending with several of the same deaths except with different players. I figure Herschel's blonde daughter/Maggie's sister takes the shotgun blast & dies with Lil' Ass Kicker in her arms ... I figure we lose good ol' Herschel as well ... I figure the Gov's new lover (or her sister) plays the role of Lilly from the comic & kills the Gov ...

To me, it really feels like they're setting up the same ending as the comic but with a longer time lapse between the (comic's) first assault & second assault.

HOWEVER ... we have learned from recent leaks/news that there is a "comics remix" character coming on board for the 2nd half of the season, meaning it's likely that SOME source material storyline is imminent
‘The Walking Dead’ Season 4 Adds Mysterious New “Comic Remix” Character

[panerd]

How spolierish is it? I am up to date on the show and always enjoy speculation but would rather not have something straight out of the comic strip that will happen spoiled if I click on the links.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

How spolierish is it? I am up to date on the show and always enjoy speculation but would rather not have something straight out of the comic strip that will happen spoiled if I click on the links.

Hawk's is speculation about a possible comic storyline they could be about to introduce.

My reply to that is completely different speculation about next week's episode that is fairly detailed & makes very specific reference to events/deaths straight from the comic, including how I think they may sub TV characters into certain situations played by others in the comic.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hawk's is speculation about a possible comic storyline they could be about to introduce.

My reply to that is completely different speculation about next week's episode that is fairly detailed & makes very specific reference to events/deaths straight from the comic, including how I think they may sub TV characters into certain situations played by others in the comic.

Thanks. Won't read.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FWIW, my son initially thought the zeds that were "stuck" were actually the victims of the Great Woodbury Massacre. Not sure why he got that impression but it actually struck me plausible for a moment until we failed to recognize anyone afaik. I now figure it to have been a random location, neither meaningful nor otherwise untoward.

I thought this too, the reason is that they seemed to do a very slow pan across the first few faces in that crowd in a way that made me think I was supposed to recognize them. I didn't recognize any, so I was hoping I'd see it mentioned in a review or on here, but apparently that wasn't it at all.

Yes, I believe there is another culprit for the violence in that camp of strangers, not anyone we know.

Agree.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The problem with the episode, as I see it, is that it's like the Governor's origin story about a year late. A lot of this stuff should have either been explored last season or just left alone. It's like they decided to deconstruct the Governor character just to re-build him again exactly the same way so that we'll have the inevitable big stand off that everyone was expecting at the end of last season.

Yep...and the issue for most people is...what is the difference between old Gov and new Gov? Nothing much? Well then why did they waste our time for 2 DEDICATED episodes to show us the Gov is psychotic? We knew these things already and when he gets to the prison showdown...he is ultimately the exact same Gov we all knew & hated from last season.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was curious how much damage the Gov mini-arc might have done.

18-49 Ratings down about 8% vs the last episode with the regular cast ...
but the same demo was already down nearly 10% from the ep before that; i.e. the end of the prison saga dropped more viewers than the Gov arc did

[miked]

I'm in the minority in that I don't mind the governor coming back. Shit at the prison was getting boring and dumb. There's only so long I can see them raid a vet school to magically cure some unknown infection.

[kingfc22]

I hope there is some resolution to this story line in these final ten minutes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not the degree of ending I expected frankly, I feared much worse.

[Edward64]

I liked the episode. Looking forward to how the 2nd half plays out without the prison.

[Draft Dodger]

While I'll never get the time back wasted on trying to make the Governor even remotely interesting or believable, they pulled off the ending really well. I like how the scene of Rick and Carl walking away at the very end looked just like the comic (or at least how I remember the comic). Looking forward to seeing how things progress from here as the show needs a change of scenery. Wish I could remember more about the comic

did anyone catch the zombie right towards the very end? it was the woman who tried to lure Rick to the camp in the first episode of the season. Nice little touch there.

[DanGarion]

So much whining in here about the last two episodes. Tonight's was just awesome and really great to see them take the comic to life... Wow... Intense.

[Swaggs]

Jam packed with red meat without an overwhelming amount of casualties.

It will be interesting to find out if that was the last we see of the folks on the bus (I don't think there were any key players on it?). Would be a decent way to thin the herd without having to kill everyone off.

I liked the nod to the comic with Rick and Carl on the hill above the smoldering prison.

did anyone catch the zombie right towards the very end? it was the woman who tried to lure Rick to the camp in the first episode of the season. Nice little touch there.

Glad you caught that -- I couldn't figure out the significance, but figured it meant something since they held the scene on her for so long.

[Grammaticus]

Wasnt Glen on the bus?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

So much whining in here about the last two episodes. Tonight's was just awesome and really great to see them take the comic to life... Wow... Intense.

Pointing out that a show capable of being quite good at times is, at least temporarily, being *very* bad, is far from whining. :P



Looks like everyone got what they wanted tonight, no more prison, no more governor, hooray!

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Wasnt Glen on the bus?

I assume he was driving, definitely on the bus the last we saw.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not the degree of ending I expected frankly, I feared much worse.

Agreed...I had the bar set very low for this episode but they managed hop it pretty well.

Nothing terribly unpredictable, especially as the events unfolded. As a matter of fact, the most unpredictable thing for me was that there wasn't 1 or 2 more mainline characters gone.

Good episode though & definitely has me wanting to see the next half season.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Wasnt Glen on the bus?

I thought Glen and Beth left the bus to go look for Maggie? It all got pretty chaotic there at the end, so I can't remember for certain.

They wrapped things up nicely.

It will be interesting to see what happens going forward with so many different groups of people scattered about.

[lungs]

At least you guys don't put spoilers in the subject line of topics. Some jackass on another forum started a topic with what I'm guessing is the main thing that happened last night as the subject.

:facepalm

[Butter]

Looks like we are definitely going to get some wandering episodes next half-season where the groups try to hook back up and have some of their own adventures.

I think the baby is still alive, and Glen was on the bus.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I think the baby is still alive

I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be quite disappointed. I'll just quote a good bit of Alan Sepinwall's review:

Judith dying(**) is huge, especially in an episode where Megan also gets killed simply for digging in the wrong pile of mud. The show has killed children before, but Sophia was a non-entity at the time she died, and Carol barely more than that back then. For good or for ill, this show (and the comic book before it) has thrown all of its emotional weight behind Rick Grimes; in a sense, things don't really matter unless they are happening to him. L'il Asskicker's birth was a dark moment for the series because of Lori's sacrifice, but her existence — and Lori's decision not to try terminating the pregnancy — was a rare bit of hope in this bleak universe. So, for that matter, was the shelter and relative peace the prison offered. Kill the baby, trash the prison, and scatter Rick's group to the five winds, and you've taken away Rick's hope, and by proxy the hope of the audience that things can get better.

....

(**) UPDATE: Lots of you are going with the "no body = no death" theory on Judith. And while she could turn up alive down the road, it was very strongly implied otherwise (bloody car seat, and why would anyone take her out of such a useful carrier in the first place?), and in the meantime, Rick and Carl are reacting as if she's dead, which brings us back to the point that they shouldn't have built this huge emotional turn on such a shaky foundation. Also, making characters believe the baby is dead if she isn't is a much cheaper trick than if it's an adult (like Carol last season).

Baby needs to be dead. I would expect we get some Rick/Carl wandering scenes next year built around the fact that she's dead, and we already got this huge emotional moment where its being presented as though the baby is unequivocally dead (Rick doesn't have a single grain of hope that she may have survived, even though there were people whose job was to look after her and get her on to the bus and to safety). To have that be a trick would be really lame of the show. Its been willing to be that lame in the past, but its good enough at times that I always hold out hope it'll be better, which is basically what I'm doing here in hoping/assuming that she is indeed dead.

[Butter]

If it's a major character and it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen. I don't think it's that major of a faux pas as both you and Sepinwall seem to think. I also think that her body would probably still have been there if she were dead, unless zombies are eating the bones now.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

If it's a major character and it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen. I don't think it's that major of a faux pas as both you and Sepinwall seem to think. I also think that her body would probably still have been there if she were dead, unless zombies are eating the bones now.

Well you could say the same thing about Lori...

I don't Judith died, since during Talking Dead they specifically mentioned that the straps were undone. A zombie wouldn't have undid the straps...

[Draft Dodger]

I disagree with the writer above that Judith's death was impactful in any way whatsoever. There was no emotional attachment to her whatsoever - heck, she was barely ever mentioned on the show, let alone seen or heard (kind of a waste, considering how much effort they put into her birth). The loss of Sophia and Megan was much more traumatic, IMO.

and I do believe she's dead. A baby really does add a lot of logistical difficulty to the show. And as others have mentioned before, this show hasn't been one to do the whole deep mystery type of thing.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Well you could say the same thing about Lori...

That's true. I guess either way wouldn't surprise me, but I do think she's alive.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The baby is alive afaic. Kirkman & Gimpel have been too coy in their comments about it for me to believe otherwise right now. Notice that we didn't technically see the bullet hit the Governor either but we saw him in the death credits on Talking Dead. The baby was not in the list of the dearly departed.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I disagree with the writer above that Judith's death was impactful in any way whatsoever. There was no emotional attachment to her whatsoever - heck, she was barely ever mentioned on the show, let alone seen or heard (kind of a waste, considering how much effort they put into her birth). The loss of Sophia and Megan was much more traumatic, IMO.

We're not attached to Judith in any way, but we are attached to Rick, or at least we should be. Rick and Carl 100% reacted as though Judith was dead, and these kinds of emotional turning points for Rick have been what drive the entire show. I believe they presented this and one of those emotional turning points that will change Rick in some way, and if Rick is acting like she's dead, she needs to be dead, or I'm going to accuse the writers of using an easy out to try to manufacture drama instead of making it feel real in any way.

I dunno, that's my view of it at least. After the episode (and before reading any reviews) I assumed the kid was dead even though I couldn't see her, because of Rick and Carl's reaction. Maybe I should have a different complaint here... why are Rick and Carl 100% sure she's dead instead of assuming that people did their jobs and got the kid on the bus and feeling resolve to go track them down and catch up with the group? Maybe that's the hole here that makes it uncomfortable to me, I dunno.


I say this a lot here, but I am not meaning to just complain, sorry The action in the episode last night was outstanding, Herschel's death definitely made an impact, and I was thrilled that Michonne got to off the Governor. Definitely a number of positives, and as someone who felt the Governor was the only serious weak point of the first half of the season, I'm hopeful that getting rid of him allows them to get back to the very good story they were turning out in the first 5 episodes.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Radii

Maybe I should have a different complaint here... why are Rick and Carl 100% sure she's dead instead of assuming that people did their jobs and got the kid on the bus and feeling resolve to go track them down and catch up with the group? Maybe that's the hole here that makes it uncomfortable to me, I dunno.

This I can see.

[Chief Rum]

So, I was trying to figure out all the different "groups" out and about now. I have not yet watched Talking Dead by the way so don't know if it is covered there.

Here's my list:

1. Rick and Carl
2. Tyrese chasing the young kids, who ran off
3. Maggie, Bob and Sasha
4. Michonne on her own (somehow didn't stay with Rick)
5. Daryl and Beth
6. The bus (with Glen on board)

Does that sound right?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

1. Rick and Carl
2. Tyrese chasing the young kids, who ran off
3. Maggie, Bob and Sasha
4. Michonne on her own (somehow didn't stay with Rick)
5. Daryl and Beth
6. The bus (with Glen on board)

Does that sound right?

I thought the kids left Tyrese in their dust (didn't he go back toward the bus while they headed in the other direction?)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I thought the kids left Tyrese in their dust (didn't he go back toward the bus while they headed in the other direction?)

I don't think we saw Tyrese do more than call after the kids.And I'm pretty sure he didn't make it to the bus.

But good point those kids took off fast.So maybe we have Tyrese and the kids each on their own, too.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

1. Rick and Carl
2. Tyrese chasing the young kids, who ran off
3. Maggie, Bob and Sasha
4. Michonne on her own (somehow didn't stay with Rick)
5. Daryl and Beth
6. The bus (with Glen on board)

I lost track of some of these, but I think this is about right.

I would definitely be interested in seeing Rick and Carl survive on their own some, and of course Michonne or Daryl (+Beth) by themselves would be good. Tyrese by himself would probably be good but I don't know about Tyrese + 3 little girls. Maggie/Bob/Sasha *could* be good if it lets them develop Bob a bit past just an alcoholic.

They frequently skip over periods of time between seasons but I don't' think they have at any point during a season before, so I'm definitely curious to see how they choose to handle this... do we get some of those individual stories or will we see most of the group together (except for rick/carl and maybe michonne) right away?

Fans of the comics: Do we have a new expected/hoped for destination for them, or do you expect them to be roaming for awhile? Or have they deviated too much to even be able to guess?

[Draft Dodger]

I think they are pretty much right back on track with the comic. IIRC, Hershel, Lori and Judith died in the attack so that's more or less lined up now. Some characters were dead at this point in the comic but are still alive in the show, and some others were alive in the comic but are dead on the show, but for the most part they are mostly at a checkpoint in the comic

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I think they are pretty much right back on track with the comic. IIRC, Hershel, Lori and Judith died in the attack so that's more or less lined up now. Some characters were dead at this point in the comic but are still alive in the show, and some others were alive in the comic but are dead on the show, but for the most part they are mostly at a checkpoint in the comic

So, if we figure they don't go backwards and grab something from earlier on ... if they go to the next major storyline in the comic, there's maybe a season & a half (through the end of 5, maybe stretching with some one-off installments to fill) before the TV show has reached the current issues of the comics?

Or am I missing something?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Radii

why are Rick and Carl 100% sure she's dead instead of assuming that people did their jobs and got the kid on the bus and feeling resolve to go track them down and catch up with the group? Maybe that's the hole here that makes it uncomfortable to me, I dunno.

I think it might have something to do with ALL THE BLOOD.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So, if we figure they don't go backwards and grab something from earlier on ... if they go to the next major storyline in the comic, there's maybe a season & a half (through the end of 5, maybe stretching with some one-off installments to fill) before the TV show has reached the current issues of the comics?

Or am I missing something?

Honestly I'd say there is much more than that. We are basically through the first 48 comics at this point. 48 is the comic they leave the prison.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I think it might have something to do with ALL THE BLOOD.

But many people say she's alive. Can't be both.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Radii

But many people say she's alive. Can't be both.

I'm specifically answering your question.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I'm specifically answering your question.

ah ok, gotcha, my bad

I was really just thinking out loud with that post and the one before it... basically something just didn't feel right to me about the idea that the kid might still be alive, but I couldn't really place why at first.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Honestly I'd say there is much more than that. We are basically through the first 48 comics at this point. 48 is the comic they leave the prison.

it'll be interesting to see what they do here as the economics of producing a show (even a mega hit like this one) might not gel with what happens in the comics

mild comic spoilers follow, but trying to be as vague as possible...

Spoiler

so in the comics now there's a pretty sizeable chunk spent traveling and the show has traditionally seemed to steer clear of that for budget issues. Financially it's better for the show to stay in one spot for FAAAAAR too long (the camp, Hershel's farm, the prison, Woodbury) and they don't really have that happen again for a while in the comics (and, when it does, will they stick with the location in the books?)

there's a lot of really interesting stuff coming up in the comics so it'll be interesting to see just how much they change because of economics

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

it'll be interesting to see what they do here as the economics of producing a show (even a mega hit like this one) might not gel with what happens in the comics

mild comic spoilers follow, but trying to be as vague as possible...

Spoiler

so in the comics now there's a pretty sizeable chunk spent traveling and the show has traditionally seemed to steer clear of that for budget issues. Financially it's better for the show to stay in one spot for FAAAAAR too long (the camp, Hershel's farm, the prison, Woodbury) and they don't really have that happen again for a while in the comics (and, when it does, will they stick with the location in the books?)

there's a lot of really interesting stuff coming up in the comics so it'll be interesting to see just how much they change because of economics

Spoiler

I'm really hoping they do the cannibals...

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The baby is alive afaic. Kirkman & Gimpel have been too coy in their comments about it for me to believe otherwise right now. Notice that we didn't technically see the bullet hit the Governor either but we saw him in the death credits on Talking Dead. The baby was not in the list of the dearly departed.

Has she been auditioning for any pilots recently? That's usually a tell if their character is about to get killed in the show.

[GoldenEagle]

I think the older sisters that were with the Gov are still alive as well.