WW CXXXIX - The Red Death II - GAME OVER, SERVANTS WIN

[Chief Rum]

I realize it could just be for flavor, but does anyone else wonder why CF was buried?

dzilla died the way we expect it from wolves, ugly and messy. And that conforms with what we have seen so far from nightkills, too.

Now, CF died violently, too (snapped neck), but buried in a cemetary? Why would the wolves do that?

I can only think of a handful reasons someone would bury them in a cemetary. Now, the cemetary is just flavor, yes, but it could be Abe wrote it up that way because of who killed CF. So in that way, it could be an indicator that CF was indeed a villager kill. I can't remember right now if there is a villager role with a one time NK ability, but certainly it's possible in a complicated game that that possibility exists. Take into consideration all of the items we have, too, with unknown uses, and this is definitely something to think about, IMO.

The cemetary indicates to me 1) Guilt (the killer felt guilt and buried CF to absolve himself a little; wolves don't feel guilt); 2) Christian/God-fearing (with Ministers and Exorcists, it seems the Lightbringers are by and large God-fearing; Christian burial migth have been the "right" thing to do; wolves wouldn't bother); and 3) burial might protect against the undead (killer might have hoped a burial in a Christian cemetary would stop the person from being resurrected for evil ends or for becoming undead; again, wolves ARE the undead, they won't fear the undead).

So that's three possible reasons why CF might have been a villager kill. Or Abe added some flavor and it means nothing.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I have a question to the people involved with Chief's item swap - do you think the items are powerful enough to provide Chief with trust for handing them over? I'm probably looking at voting Eagle or him at this stage as the simplest options. I do have misgivings about some of the "cleared" players but I think we have enough of a buffer at the moment to push that on the back-burner until next week.

I guess I need to offer some sort of defence of myself at this stage as I'm a pretty obvious suspect giving my crappy voting record. But, you know, I don't really have one. I haven't been as present as I normally am and, consequently, haven't been able to make the same shaky analysis I normally do. On the plus side the lack of involvement means I haven't obsessed as much as usual and have managed to avoid releasing the Dogs of Paranoia! Although I have one or two ideas along those lines.

well given the hint Chief gave about the one item he sent, it appears its the baseball bat. You'd have to think that its some kind of defense against physical attacks and/or can be used to attack someone. Not something you'd want in the hands of a Lightbringer if you are a Servant. From Commo's unvote of Chief, I'm guessing the item he got made him change his mind about him when he seemed pretty adamant that he'd be voting CR today.

[The Jackal]

I tend to believe the wolves would assume the sheriff was guarding bug and that's why he wasn't targeted, and they were sheriff hunting with the CF kill if it wasn't a villager kill.

[Autumn]

I'm not exactly surprised to see two kills. I would guess, as people have mentioned, that this means the era of conversions are over. It maybe that the converted get their own kill, possibly a less effective one, or one every other night, or something like that.

I think villager kills are a real possibility too. The item I started with seems like it could have the potential of being dangerous, which is why I haven't passed it on. But CF's kill sounds more direct, and i would think if an item gave someone the ability to make a kill that would be made clear to them (which doesn't seem quite in line with the items I've seen).

I'm not crazy about Bug playing it close to the vest with this scan. In a normal game, that's a great call. In a game where there's a good chance he's been converted or was never the seer, that's not a good way to confirm our trust in him. I sure hope he scanned someone convincing because a safe/weak choice is going to drop that trust even further.

It's also possible the wolves have had multiple kills before this and been blocked, so we should keep that in mind.

[The Jackal]

Believe me I'm not discounting the idea that bug is lying, that would suck though. Was a great start to the game for us but if we aren't getting any seer clears and there are converts, gonna be a tough finish.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

well given the hint Chief gave about the one item he sent, it appears its the baseball bat. You'd have to think that its some kind of defense against physical attacks and/or can be used to attack someone. Not something you'd want in the hands of a Lightbringer if you are a Servant. From Commo's unvote of Chief, I'm guessing the item he got made him change his mind about him when he seemed pretty adamant that he'd be voting CR today.

But even if the item is something like that, if the wolves pass it to someone they know who has it, and won't target that person. So it buys trust without being much of a danger.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

But even if the item is something like that, if the wolves pass it to someone they know who has it, and won't target that person. So it buys trust without being much of a danger.

For a day. Once the item is out of their control, it can be passed around on subsequent nights, no control of where it goes. And if it protects the holder, then wolves have even less ability to take back that item.

[hoopsguy]

Thomkal got the item right. Without knowing what it does (I didn't) I'm not sure how much trust there is to be gathered in passing it.

[hoopsguy]

Dola - and that is coming from someone who did pass that exact item to Chief Rum on Night 1. In hindsight, it was a poor move. Not because of trust or lack thereof, but because I hadn't paid sufficient attention to the rules as they related to items and thought I had to move it on a nightly basis like some other item games I've played. If I had realized that, I would have likely held onto it for that night and waited to potentially pass it to someone when I had built up semi-significant trust.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

But even if the item is something like that, if the wolves pass it to someone they know who has it, and won't target that person. So it buys trust without being much of a danger.

Yes I realize that Autumn, which is why I'm not completely buying Chief's benevolence here. But look at it from the point of view that's he's a Lightbringer-and one very likely to die tonight if he did nothing to gain some trust. Plus he sent items to people he believes are Lightbringers so they don't end up in the Servants hands should he die today. Have to look at it both ways I guess.

And of course if Chief turns up bad, the people who got the items can always pass them to someone else or even keep them without revealing that, so the Servants can't be sure who to attack.

[EagleFan]

Not much time here as I am heading out, only a couple minutes to check in but very good news. I found a convert last night. Sorry fo being unavailable for much of the game but glad that I finally can contribute.

I am tied up most of the day preparing for my daughter's birthday party this weekend and then I have poker tonight. I will try to check in when possible.


vote mrbug

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I found a convert last night.

Wait, what?

[Autumn]

Sure, all good points. But since I, at least, said last night I'd be voting between Chief and EF, anything that makes people sway in one way or the other is going to be wanted, by a wolf Chief or a villager chief. Better to lose the bat than die, probably in either case, but especially in a wolf's case.

I was hoping Bug would make this day easy for us, since we're down to 2 Thomkal voters to choose from (barring fake reveals or fake scans or converts). For now, since only EF has votes, I'm going to keep Chief in the mix.

vote chief rum

[Autumn]

Whoa, talk about cross posting.

How did you do that EF?

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Not much time here as I am heading out, only a couple minutes to check in but very good news. I found a convert last night. Sorry fo being unavailable for much of the game but glad that I finally can contribute.

I am tied up most of the day preparing for my daughter's birthday party this weekend and then I have poker tonight. I will try to check in when possible.


vote mrbug

uh you have to give us more info than that Eaglefan, like how you found out he was a convert perhaps?

[Autumn]

And Narc thanks for getting the Day four voting history. My computer crashed and I lost most of mine. Here's today so far:

commo votes chief 2153
commo unvotes chief 2157
thomkal votes EF 2187
jackal votes EF 2196
EF votes mrbug 2211
autumn votes chief 2213

chief - autumn
EagleFAn - thomkal, jackal
Mrbug - EF

[Autumn]

I really hope EF has not blown out of here leaving us with just that.

How could you figure something like that out? *heads for the rules*

[hoopsguy]

Yep, waiting for some info from EF but I'll be thrilled if someone has actually done something with a role/item ... we've been pretty thin in info in the thread to help with decisions so far.

[Autumn]

Well, I don't see any role that should be able to pull that off. An items perhaps? Though how he knew how to use it is beyond me.

[Autumn]

Rereading the rules, all I can think is that it's pretty much inevitable that a seer is going to be corrupt. I hope we have more than one. With an always-on sherrif, the wolves can only get at a seer by corrupting him. Add to that that he can corrupt himself by scanning ... *sad music* Sorry Bug, I hope you're still on our side, but how many nights can that last? Danny I think is the only thing that could protect Bug from corruption unless he has some item.

[Autumn]

Guess I'll go get some work done and check back.

[Chief Rum]

I would love to know what's up with EF as well, and hope he hasn't taken off for some time. Rough going dropping something like that and then just leaving.

As for myself, no, the items don't prove my innocence, but they will go a long way to support what I may need to say later in the day if it comes to it.

At this point, I feel I have very little to worry about from the wolves, especially since I am not a particular danger to them. But they aren't likely to have the ability to kill me tonight or even tomorrow night, and that's without anyone raising a hand to help me.

The only way I am leaving this game soon is if the villagers off me, so I hope you guys don't.

Despite the two items I moved along, I still have three items, of varying powers and I have a reasonable guess (if it's not obvious) as to all of their uses.

[MrBug708]

If I'm a convert...I'm unaware of it

But I scanned Narizco last night

[MrBug708]

vote narizco

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Dola - and that is coming from someone who did pass that exact item to Chief Rum on Night 1. In hindsight, it was a poor move. Not because of trust or lack thereof, but because I hadn't paid sufficient attention to the rules as they related to items and thought I had to move it on a nightly basis like some other item games I've played. If I had realized that, I would have likely held onto it for that night and waited to potentially pass it to someone when I had built up semi-significant trust.

I understand where you're coming from. I was of more than half a mind to pass yours back to you, along with mine, as kind of a mutual gesture. In the end, I decided the potential protective benefits would be of more use to those needing protecting. So I tried to pass a bat to Lathum on Night Two, and then Danny on Night Three. Both nights, they were killed before my item could get to them, so the item was never passed.

Thomkal was the first person I succeeded in passing a bat to. And I passed a sprig of holly to Commo, although I have no idea what it could do. It could be some sort of Christmas reference, a protection from evil. Or it could be a reference to the holly being one of the most caffeine filled plants in the world (maybe a bonus to attack or anything speed related). Or it could be a soothsayer tool, as some types of holly have a truth serum type of ingredient in them. But that's just looking at wikipedia--if I had to guess, Abe's use of it in this game will tend toward the mystical side and that probably relates to Christmas/Christian, etc.

It could also be an ingredient in a spell, where maybe two different items can be combined. What other item that might be, I couldn't tell you.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

vote narizco

Can you give more detail about what you were told about Narcizo?

[Autumn]

Wow, here's a nice mess.

[Autumn]

This is an example of what I mean. If Bug had come out with this first thing in the morning i would have just jumped on it. Coming out with it after EF's post leaves me hanging. Though the obvious thing to do if Bug was a convert would be to say he scanned EF, so that makes me feel a bit better about it.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Can you give more detail about what you were told about Narcizo?

I don't know roles, I don't know converts, I don't get anything other than if they are a light bringer or a servant. He came up servant.

[Thomkal]

Man this game just became super crazy.

[mckerney]

Well shit.

[Autumn]

Why did you scan Narcizo, Bug? I would have thought Chief and EF would be obvious scans.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I don't know roles, I don't know converts, I don't get anything other than if they are a light bringer or a servant. He came up servant.

Okay, so you have anything to say about EF?

[mckerney]

Right now I'm more inclined to believe Bug than EF, though with how I've done so far this game I will probably end up being completely wrong.

[Thomkal]

I don't understand why you scanned Narcizo MrBug. Not that he was a bad choice, but given the fact that it was likely one of the two "uncleared" on me the other night we were likely to lynch today (Eaglefan or Chief Rum), it was not the right choice for the moment. And that makes me question your role claim and allegiance.

[Thomkal]

okay off to lunch, be back later.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Right now I'm more inclined to believe Bug than EF, though with how I've done so far this game I will probably end up being completely wrong.

I agree, if only because Bug has at least claimed seer. EF hasn't claimed anything and there doesn't seem a means for him to have done this. Ironic that Bug suddenly claims a wolf just after he gets a finger pointed at him though. We have to assume EF is a wolf who figured he got scanned and wanted to draw first blood. But given the very real possibility of corruption in this game I'm just not sure. I sure hope EF gets back on today.

unvote chief rum
vote narcizo

[MrBug708]

This is my first time as a seer and I felt determined to hit s bad guy more than I wanted to clear someone. Narizco is usually more involved so I went with him.

[MrBug708]

I was planning on coming out with my vote after the first big vote on me

[MrBug708]

I also won't lie...I thought about saying narizco was good and that would have bought me another day IMO. I don't think I survive tonight's action sadly.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I also won't lie...I thought about saying narizco was good and that would have bought me another day IMO. I don't think I survive tonight's action sadly.

How do you expect they will kill you? And if you claimed a fake scan, you think the wolves would think you're somehow on their side?

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I also won't lie...I thought about saying narizco was good and that would have bought me another day IMO. I don't think I survive tonight's action sadly.

Frankly if you had come out saying you scanned Narcizo good I'd be tempted to vote you. That's the sort of scan a fake seer comes out with. At least this way we can test your scan and your allegiance.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Crimson does seem an odd choice-dubb was going to be coming after him today, so would have been an easy lynch target for the wolves. Maybe they just want to take out the "noisier" players? Dubb can you shed any light on CF's death?

I'm not dubb, but to me the wolves would be crazy not to kill him last night when he stated yesterday afternoon he had an item that probably gives him an extra vote since they get all the items off of the dead.

[The Jackal]

unvote EF
vote narcizo

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I have a question to the people involved with Chief's item swap - do you think the items are powerful enough to provide Chief with trust for handing them over? I'm probably looking at voting Eagle or him at this stage as the simplest options. I do have misgivings about some of the "cleared" players but I think we have enough of a buffer at the moment to push that on the back-burner until next week.

I guess I need to offer some sort of defence of myself at this stage as I'm a pretty obvious suspect giving my crappy voting record. But, you know, I don't really have one. I haven't been as present as I normally am and, consequently, haven't been able to make the same shaky analysis I normally do. On the plus side the lack of involvement means I haven't obsessed as much as usual and have managed to avoid releasing the Dogs of Paranoia! Although I have one or two ideas along those lines.

The item I got from Chief looks like it could be powerful, but I have no idea, I'm going to wiki it in a bit to find out. What has me concerned however is has anyone admitted to passing Chief an item? Why does he have multiples? While it gains trust, I made it somewhat clear I would be going after him today and he knew that so it is easy for a wolf, who get all the dead peoples items, to pass me something to try and gain trust.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Have you played with bug before commo? He acts weird often, and it's usually as a villager. It's good that people realize we can't discount the idea that he was 1) converted, or 2) they converted the actual seer and used that info to save one of their own. Since he scanned me I feel like I should be in his camp, don't think it makes sense to go that way yet. Do want to hear who he scanned last night though. Have to take the announced scans so far with a grain of salt but they are still something to work off.

This is only my second game, the first being the Evil Dead game where I was Annie. As for the convert thing part of the strange thing is he was playing it off as he couldn't claim as the seer because he wouldn't have communication, which could be, but not I don't think it is 100%.

[The Jackal]

Would still like to hear from EF .. kind of want to vote for him first to see if he was lying about bug being corrupted, and if he turns up good then we know Narc was lying and bug gets lynched. Guess it's a matter of who would you rather keep alive if bug is lying - narcizo or ef.

But we need to hear EF's info before we can make a judgement there.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Well that was a pretty lousy day all around.

Dubb, what had you so convinced that Crimson was a convert? And did you happen to activate any kind of villager role to take matters into your own hands last night?

Commo, it has been fun having you in this game and seeing you get more assertive between last game and this one. Keep up the good work.

Bug - why didn't you immediately post your scan result from last night? It looks like you were on after Abe announced the results ... this is information we need to know and the failure to come forward with it right away is the kind of thing that can make people a bit suspicious.

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Crimson does seem an odd choice-dubb was going to be coming after him today, so would have been an easy lynch target for the wolves. Maybe they just want to take out the "noisier" players? Dubb can you shed any light on CF's death?

Was a strong feeling I had, nothing more. The more time went on the crazier CF got. That combined with him being in the clear on D1 AND him being extremely unlikely to be protected made me think he was the convert on D1.

Me coming after him today was a bluff to get the exorcist to exorcise him. I still believe that was the strong play last night.

As for the result. I suspect that wolves came for the exorcist and caught him in the middle of an exorcism.

Another theory is that maybe if you exorcise someone twice they die. Would explain why he was buried. The guilt of the exorcist killing an innocent.

My last theory would be a one time wolf power for an extra night kill.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

The item I got from Chief looks like it could be powerful, but I have no idea, I'm going to wiki it in a bit to find out. What has me concerned however is has anyone admitted to passing Chief an item? Why does he have multiples? While it gains trust, I made it somewhat clear I would be going after him today and he knew that so it is easy for a wolf, who get all the dead peoples items, to pass me something to try and gain trust.

hoops is the only player who has passed me something, a baseball bat. There are other ways to acquire items besides passing and nigth kill.

BTW, I started with a baseball bat (so I had two after hoops passed me his).

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Would still like to hear from EF .. kind of want to vote for him first to see if he was lying about bug being corrupted, and if he turns up good then we know Narc was lying and bug gets lynched. Guess it's a matter of who would you rather keep alive if bug is lying - narcizo or ef.

But we need to hear EF's info before we can make a judgement there.

Bug was lying about narc, i meant to say