The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miked

Yes, he totally engages China and is so tough. How brave and forward thinking.

China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 24, 2020

So you counter all the evidence of the bruising economic fight with statements?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Except Africa is already big into the US bringing the virus to China right now. China owns a /lot/ of Africa right now because of the belt and road initiative and they've been spreading that one around there for a few weeks now.

SI

I don't disagree, China has shown long-term strategy in investment/buying-off countries that need the $. Can't blame China, the US does it too. Until Trump, the US China policy has been "words" and not "deeds" because China has been the economic market.

Trump's counter to China trying to redirect blame was childish with the "Chinese virus". It would have been so much better to just have called it the "Wuhan virus" because that is more sustainable and doubt MSM would have called that non-ADL racist.

Nevertheless, it starts with acknowledging that we are in an economic/IP/technological war with China and then creating a strategy to counter it. Not saying Trump is up to the job but he has at least brought it to the forefront. I do struggle with Biden on this issue because I don't think he believes China is really, really a threat.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Then the conspiracy will pivot towards China allowed it to spread beyond its borders with their X, Y, Z (in)actions. The blame game will help Trump politically and I don't see a lot of downside here for him (assuming he stays on message about this ... which I know is not a sure thing).

You realize that this is exactly how Putin handles anything where Russia might be at fault, or it might be his responsibility. Exactly. Deflect and deny forever, accuse someone else. It used to be a joke around here. Now it's the accepted thing to do.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You realize that this is exactly how Putin handles anything where Russia might be at fault, or it might be his responsibility. Exactly. Deflect and deny forever, accuse someone else. It used to be a joke around here. Now it's the accepted thing to do.

Do you believe China is to blame for this pandemic? Not necessarily as the creator of the virus but for negligence, lack of transparency etc.?

If you do, why not lead an effort to blame China for it especially when they are trying to "deflect, deny, accuse someone else".

[PilotMan]

uffda

22 million jobs in four weeks. That's a staggering number in any circumstance. The ripple effect from this is going to be brutal. We're not even going to see that for another month or so. As things open up and nobody spends money. That's when the real pain is going to hit.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Do you believe China is to blame for this pandemic? Not necessarily as the creator of the virus but for negligence, lack of transparency etc.?

If you do, why not lead an effort to blame China for it especially when they are trying to "deflect, deny, accuse someone else".

I believe it was a global catastrophe. It could just as easily started there as anywhere in Asia. What exactly do you want China to do about it? Or what exactly do you want the US to "make" China do about it?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So you counter all the evidence of the bruising economic fight with statements?

What do you think success in this fight you've described looks like?

Originally Posted by Edward64

Do you believe China is to blame for this pandemic? Not necessarily as the creator of the virus but for negligence, lack of transparency etc.?

I don't. Look at the way the rest of the world has handled it. It should be obvious by the way it has spread around the world that A) Nobody was prepared and B) After the initial breakout, it was going to spread globally no matter what and there's nothing anybody could have done to prevent it. The damage could have been minimized more obviously, but there's significant blame to go around there to nearly every country in the world. .

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

What do you think success in this fight you've described looks like?

As in the economic/IP/technological war with China or as in the current pandemic blame game?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

As in the economic/IP/technological war with China or as in the current pandemic blame game?

It's all the same really. One fight, another fight, they're all still a fight with the same group.

[Brian Swartz]

It seems evident they are related, but the economic one.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by whomario

Lol thinking the US right now has that much more credibility than China among other countries so that they will 'fall in line' and adopt the stance they manufactured it because of some flimsy 'evidence' not based in science, that's cute

People and countries are/will be critical of Chinas handling of it, but not because the US says so.

I agree with this. Good luck getting Canada to 'fall in line' on that myth after the Huawei CEO backstab a year ago and now the mask-grab fiasco. I'm sure most other countries have similar axes to grind. The US-first, isolationist MAGA philosophy comes at a cost.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

uffda

22 million jobs in four weeks. That's a staggering number in any circumstance. The ripple effect from this is going to be brutal. We're not even going to see that for another month or so. As things open up and nobody spends money. That's when the real pain is going to hit.

I belong to a couple Facebook groups about Las Vegas and there have been a lot of posts about Vegas reopening and people basically wishfully thinking about it. May 1st is actually being thrown around.

I'm like, guys, Vegas is so far from opening right now not only because social distancing, but because people don't have the discretionary income and wont for a long time.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I believe it was a global catastrophe. It could just as easily started there as anywhere in Asia.

The question I posed was

Do you believe China is to blame for this pandemic? Not necessarily as the creator of the virus but for negligence, lack of transparency etc.?

What exactly do you want China to do about it? Or what exactly do you want the US to "make" China do about it?

I don't want China to do anything about it and don't want the US to "make" China do anything about it.

I want the US to leverage this catastrophe, coalesce countries that already have doubts about China, and reduce China's influence. I see this as an economic/IP/technological war with China.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I agree with this. Good luck getting Canada to 'fall in line' on that myth after the Huawei CEO backstab a year ago and now the mask-grab fiasco. I'm sure most other countries have similar axes to grind. The US-first, isolationist MAGA philosophy comes at a cost.

I listen to the BBC a decent amount and have family from the UK, South Africa, and a few other countries. It absolutely amazes me that anyone thinks the global POV of the US is at all positive outside a few dictatorships. Other countries are more likely to do the direct opposite of what we do, and they should.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I want the US to leverage this catastrophe, coalesce countries that already have doubts about China, and reduce China's influence. I see this as an economic/IP/technological war with China.

So take advantage of a global pandemic that will likely kill millions to get a leg up over them?

What happend to catching more flies with honey?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

What do you think success in this fight you've described looks like?

I'll take this to mean the economic/IP/technology war then. I'll respond more fully later on this.

I don't. Look at the way the rest of the world has handled it. It should be obvious by the way it has spread around the world that A) Nobody was prepared and B) After the initial breakout, it was going to spread globally no matter what and there's nothing anybody could have done to prevent it. The damage could have been minimized more obviously, but there's significant blame to go around there to nearly every country in the world.

Sure, I get after the initial breakout every country was found lacking.

But during the initial event? No blame there for not being transparent enough or really raising the alarm?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I agree with this. Good luck getting Canada to 'fall in line' on that myth after the Huawei CEO backstab a year ago and now the mask-grab fiasco. I'm sure most other countries have similar axes to grind. The US-first, isolationist MAGA philosophy comes at a cost.

To be clear, I didn't use the "fall in line" quote. I used "fall behind someone leading the blame game". The former implies "obey", the latter implies "support".

I agree the US-first comes at a cost. I've stated that Trump should do this to help his re-election but have sprinkled caveats that I don't know if he's up to the job or forward thinking enough.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's all the same really. One fight, another fight, they're all still a fight with the same group.

Yes, agree with this.

However, the blame game is much easier for Trump to win (if he's smart in coalescing support) vs the economic/IP/technology battle.

This is an opportunity handed to Trump on a silver platter. All he has to do is be smart about blaming China and creating the support.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So take advantage of a global pandemic that will likely kill millions to get a leg up over them?

What happend to catching more flies with honey?

I think I read somewhere China's silk road initiative was about $1T overall government, private & public companies. I don't know if the US has that much honey to spread around.

Yes, if Trump was smart, he should basically take advantage of a global pandemic to place blame where much (not all) belongs to further his political position and help his earlier cause of pushing back on China.

Call it first stab for China grabbing the Spratleys from its neighbors.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But during the initial event? No blame there for not being transparent enough or really raising the alarm?

I'm not saying no blame for those things, but that's not the same as being to blame for the pandemic itself, which is how the original question was worded. During the initial event even China didn't know what was going on. That's before Li Wenliang began to sound the alarm. As scientists have investigated we've seen the likely time period of the initial outbreak get pushed back and back to the point where best estimates I've seen are 2-3 months before that.

By then, China being more transparent wouldn't have stopped anything, and they eventually took measures more extreme and draconian than what most countries have done. So yes I blame them for their clear distortion/suppression, etc., but at the same time even once more facts were known others did similar things. I.e. Trump calling it a hoax, saying it's well under control, saying cases would soon be down to zero, etc. We haven't a leg to stand on criticizing China/ the WHO on this stuff when we acted in a similar way.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I listen to the BBC a decent amount and have family from the UK, South Africa, and a few other countries. It absolutely amazes me that anyone thinks the global POV of the US is at all positive outside a few dictatorships. Other countries are more likely to do the direct opposite of what we do, and they should.

Let's not mix Trump vs US. They are different.

Trump Ratings Remain Low Around the World, While Views of U.S. Stay Mostly Favorable | Pew Research Center

View of the US

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yes, agree with this.

However, the blame game is much easier for Trump to win (if he's smart in coalescing support) vs the economic/IP/technology battle.

This is an opportunity handed to Trump on a silver platter. All he has to do is be smart about blaming China and creating the support.

He is not a leader in any remote, does not inspire; and can not create support. He is the great divider and he is best at feeding the haters of the world. I agree with others that think it is comical to think he can get anyone except North Korea to fall his lead. This is what the era of Trumpism has brought us globally.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

uffda

22 million jobs in four weeks. That's a staggering number in any circumstance. The ripple effect from this is going to be brutal. We're not even going to see that for another month or so. As things open up and nobody spends money. That's when the real pain is going to hit.

You are giving Americans way too much credit for their skills with math. They are largely innumerate, the math equivalent of illiterate.

There is a built-in spin right here, which you can expect to hear today… The numbers this week were not as bad as the numbers last week… Things are looking up! That is absolutely absurd on its face, but you can guarantee that will be a talking point in red America by tonight on Fox news.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I'm not saying no blame for those things, but that's not the same as being to blame for the pandemic itself, which is how the original question was worded.

My original question is below.

Do you believe China is to blame for this pandemic? Not necessarily as the creator of the virus but for negligence, lack of transparency etc.?

During the initial event even China didn't know what was going on. That's before Li Wenliang began to sound the alarm. As scientists have investigated we've seen the likely time period of the initial outbreak get pushed back and back to the point where best estimates I've seen are 2-3 months before that.

I believe Li Wenliang sounded alarm on Jan 1.

By then, China being more transparent wouldn't have stopped anything, and they eventually took measures more extreme and draconian than what most countries have done. So yes I blame them for their clear distortion/suppression, etc., but at the same time even once more facts were known others did similar things. I.e. Trump calling it a hoax, saying it's well under control, saying cases would soon be down to zero, etc. We haven't a leg to stand on criticizing China/ the WHO on this stuff when we acted in a similar way.

If China on Jan 1 held a press conference and said - "Guys, this is for real, no bullshit. We're going to do our best but we think it will inevitably spread to your country. Here's what we know and the treatments we have tried so far. And oh BTW, CDC we welcome you on the ground now", I'm pretty it may not have "stopped anything" but it sure would have helped.

[whomario]

So the goal should be not to do better/smarter from now on but to be better/smarter at blaming others, did i get that correctly ?

[QuikSand]

Incidentally, there is no working model to predict what happens in our economy for the next six weeks, six months, whenever. This kind of shocked to employment over the course of a few weeks is just one of a kind. We might never know how much of what has fallen apart is connected to a pre-existing recession that was about to happen anyway, how much is completely due to the health crisis, and so forth. And, if you were in the business of predicting the economy, the stock market, or government revenues… All of which are pretty important, good luck. People are trying to describe the shape of the economic downturn and recovery… Most economists use letters like V, U, and L to describe the economy over an x axis of time... I recently heard somebody use the phrase Nike swoosh to describe what might be ahead for us, and I am going to pirate the shit out of that phrase.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If China on Jan 1 held a press conference and said - "Guys, this is for real, no bullshit. We're going to do our best but we think it will inevitably spread to your country. Here's what we know and the treatments we have tried so far. And oh BTW, CDC we welcome you on the ground now", I'm pretty it may not have "stopped anything" but it sure would have helped.

Tough to disagree with that. I realized that on this issue everybody has retreated to their appropriately colored corners, and because the POTUS is playing the blame Chyna card, team blue has decided that’s totally inappropriate. But sure, China could and should have done more, and in ways less bald faced than this strawman.

Their governmental culture of secrecy and shame played no small part in these problems, it appears. I’m not completely convinced that a more “free” country would have necessarily done better, but their accountability structure didn’t seem to lend it self to a proper, open, and effective quick response.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

He is not a leader in any remote, does not inspire; and can not create support. He is the great divider and he is best at feeding the haters of the world. I agree with others that think it is comical to think he can get anyone except North Korea to fall his lead. This is what the era of Trumpism has brought us globally.

Yeah, don't dispute it, he's not very good at coalescing global support.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by whomario

So the goal should be not to do better/smarter from now on but to be better/smarter at blaming others, did i get that correctly ?

Uh no. My response to you is, at most, all Germany will do is be verbally critical of China. All words, no action.

Just like "fall in line" is not the same as "fall behind someone leading the blame game"

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If China on Jan 1 held a press conference and said - "Guys, this is for real, no bullshit. We're going to do our best but we think it will inevitably spread to your country. Here's what we know and the treatments we have tried so far. And oh BTW, CDC we welcome you on the ground now", I'm pretty it may not have "stopped anything" but it sure would have helped.

How would that have helped, beyond being the right thing to do? I agree they should have done it, but we weren't doing that months later when it had spread to Korea, and Italy, and … Spain didn't act decisively. The UK didn't. Sweden didn't. The USA didn't. All when we had a lot more evidence than China could have possibly given us at the start of January. Such warnings only do any practical good when they are heeded. Almost everyone waited too long to act anyway.

[QuikSand]

Relocated from the non-political COVID thread, since my snark level is surely itself a violation of the separation wall...

Originally Posted by nilodor

The all-cause mortality rates paint an interesting picture, they point to only 30-50% of the coronavirus related deaths being picked up in the official statistics. With the rest being missed because they have died at home, or at nursing homes/long term care facilities, had it attributed to an underlying conditions, etc, etc.

Be careful, as factual as the statement is, prepare for this entire argument to become 100% political. The debate about medical professionals assigning a cause of death, what to do with a count of people simply dying at home without a diagnosis or test… All that is going to be hashed out on the political airwaves, not by medical experts. Soon, all that will have to go to the politics thread, not the medical thread because… We don’t make medical decisions based on medicine, we do so based on electoral strategy.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

How would that have helped, beyond being the right thing to do? I agree they should have done it, but we weren't doing that months later when it had spread to Korea, and Italy, and … Spain didn't act decisively. The UK didn't. Sweden didn't. The USA didn't. All when we had a lot more evidence than China could have possibly given us at the start of January. Such warnings only do any practical good when they are heeded. Almost everyone waited too long to act anyway.

Honestly, I don't see how it could not have helped. I'm not saying the world would have squared away from this speech but there would certainly have been more awareness ... especially if the CDC was brought in early.

[JPhillips]

Trump on March 6: I like the numbers where they are.

China being more transparent would have been a good thing, but Trump was denying the problem well after everyone should have known a pandemic was likely. Any argument saying things could have been different has to somehow change Trump's behavior, and I don't see any reason to assume that could have happened.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I'm not saying no blame for those things, but that's not the same as being to blame for the pandemic itself, which is how the original question was worded. During the initial event even China didn't know what was going on. That's before Li Wenliang began to sound the alarm. As scientists have investigated we've seen the likely time period of the initial outbreak get pushed back and back to the point where best estimates I've seen are 2-3 months before that.

By then, China being more transparent wouldn't have stopped anything, and they eventually took measures more extreme and draconian than what most countries have done. So yes I blame them for their clear distortion/suppression, etc., but at the same time even once more facts were known others did similar things. I.e. Trump calling it a hoax, saying it's well under control, saying cases would soon be down to zero, etc. We haven't a leg to stand on criticizing China/ the WHO on this stuff when we acted in a similar way.

This is exactly my same point of view. Thank you for articulating it so well for me.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'm not saying the world would have squared away from this speech but there would certainly have been more awareness ... especially if the CDC was brought in early.

The CDC got there well ahead of us anyway. This argument would have weight if we took action before CDC recommendations and warnings came out, indicating they needed more advance info. On February 25, they warned that community spread was going to happen soon in the US and that 'Disruptions to everyday life might be severe."

What did we do? Not much of anything. It wasn't just Trump. The first school closings would not happen for more than two weeks. We still haven't taken steps that should have been taken at that point to ramp up testing etc. more quickly, establish temporary hospital locations, and so on. Beyond that, experts had been warning of this type of pandemic (or one much, much worse) being inevitable for at least two decades. Again, we did nothing.

That's WE. All of us share a significant part of the blame. Any lack of awareness was simple willful blindness, and that includes me personally. And as I've mentioned before, as bad as this is we've gotten relatively lucky. There's no reason this one couldn't have been as contagious as measles and double the lethality of SARS. That is a scenario that very possibly will happen at some point, barring a major change on how we interact with the natural world, and pandemics are only aspect of how the way we live as a species is a ticking time bomb.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Thank you for articulating it so well for me.

You're welcome.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump on March 6: I like the numbers where they are.

China being more transparent would have been a good thing, but Trump was denying the problem well after everyone should have known a pandemic was likely. Any argument saying things could have been different has to somehow change Trump's behavior, and I don't see any reason to assume that could have happened.

I think your argument is yeah China is to be blamed but US shares blame too.

My argument is yeah China is to be blamed for the initial outbreak and lack of transparency and US shares none/much less of that blame until maybe Feb 2 when NYT and WP said it was going to be a pandemic.

What would have happened if CDC was involved Jan 1, the hypothetical China speech given, and CDC reports start trickling back confirming this was for real in first half of Jan? What would have happened if China did not (arguably, not confirmed) play WHO into not declaring it as a pandemic until Mar 11?

So sure, blame Trump now after approx Feb 2 but let's not believe China does not own the majority of the blame in the early stages. And because of their lack of transparency, it has made it worse for rest of world.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think your argument is yeah China is to be blamed but US shares blame too.

My argument is yeah China is to be blamed for the initial outbreak and lack of transparency and US shares none/much less of that blame until maybe Feb 2 when NYT and WP said it was going to be a pandemic.

What would have happened if CDC was involved Jan 1, the hypothetical China speech given, and CDC reports start trickling back confirming this was for real in first half of Jan? What would have happened if China did not (arguably, not confirmed) play WHO into not declaring it as a pandemic until Mar 11?

So sure, blame Trump now after approx Feb 2 but let's not believe China does not own the majority of the blame in the early stages. And because of their lack of transparency, it has made it worse for rest of world.

If only there was some branch of the CDC designed to track global pandemics and try to stop them before they get out of control. Oh wait, there was, Trump disbanded them....

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The CDC got there well ahead of us anyway. This argument would have weight if we took action before CDC recommendations and warnings came out, indicating they needed more advance info. On February 25, they warned that community spread was going to happen soon in the US and that 'Disruptions to everyday life might be severe."

NYT and WP was calling it a pandemic on Feb 2.

Not sure if Feb 25 is when the CDC "got there well ahead of us anyway" but NYT and WP beat them to the punch.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If only there was some branch of the CDC designed to track global pandemics and try to stop them before they get out of control. Oh wait, there was, Trump disbanded them....

Oh com'on. See below Feb 7 article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/h...rus-china.html

For more than a month, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has been offering to send a team of experts to China to observe its coronavirus outbreak and help if it can.

Normally, teams from the agency’s Epidemic Intelligence Service can be in the air within 24 hours.

But no invitation has come — and no one can publicly explain why.

The World Health Organization, which made a similar offer about two weeks ago, appears to be facing the same cold shoulder, though a spokeswoman said it is just “sorting out arrangements.”

Current and former public health officials and diplomats, speaking anonymously for fear of upsetting diplomatic relations, said they believe the reluctance comes from China’s top leaders, who do not want the world to think they need outside help.

[tyketime]

What could be the harm, he asked?

Well...

A double-blind research study of a drug touted by President Donald Trump early on to treat coronavirus found it to be so dangerous at high doses the trial was shut down after six days.

The study on chloroquine, conducted in Brazil, found one-quarter of the patients taking the anti-malaria medication developed potentially deadly changes in the electrical system regulating their heartbeats. While a small and imperfect study, it highlights the compelling need for more rigorous data.

Doctors in the United States have seen such heart issues with chloroquine and a similar but less toxic drug, an anti-inflammatory called hydroxychloroquine. Some medical systems are no longer using either to treat COVID-19, even if they initially tried it. Others use them only with careful monitoring.

This continues a trend of promoting and approving drugs, tests, etc. I worry about many of the Tests being approved/fast-tracked that will provide a false sense of security to those taking it only to find out the results are unreliable.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think your argument is yeah China is to be blamed but US shares blame too.

My argument is yeah China is to be blamed for the initial outbreak and lack of transparency and US shares none/much less of that blame until maybe Feb 2 when NYT and WP said it was going to be a pandemic.

What would have happened if CDC was involved Jan 1, the hypothetical China speech given, and CDC reports start trickling back confirming this was for real in first half of Jan? What would have happened if China did not (arguably, not confirmed) play WHO into not declaring it as a pandemic until Mar 11?

So sure, blame Trump now after approx Feb 2 but let's not believe China does not own the majority of the blame in the early stages. And because of their lack of transparency, it has made it worse for rest of world.

Your argument seems to be that if China had been more forthcoming sooner, the U.S. government would have behaved differently. My argument is that the Chinese government's behavior, regardless of what it was, would have had very little, if any, impact on how Trump and the WH behaved. We know HHS Sec. Azar was alerting them in Jan and Feb and was neutered because of it. We know Navarro wrote his letter in Jan. There were intelligence briefings possibly as far back as November.

There's nothing that China could have done to make Trump a little less Trumpy.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Oh com'on. See below Feb 7 article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/h...rus-china.html

and what does that have to do with a CDC team that could have been tracking cases around the globe and in the US, isolating cases, and tracing them back to the origin? would have made a huge difference in the spread here in the US.

[CrimsonFox]

oh boy fake protesters...what is this? 2000?

[Ben E Lou]

China's response was inexcusable and cost innumerable lives.

Trump's response was inexcusable and cost innumerable lives.

China would have responded horribly without Trump.

Trump would have responded horribly without China.

All of this can be true at the same time.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Your argument seems to be that if China had been more forthcoming sooner, the U.S. government would have behaved differently. My argument is that the Chinese government's behavior, regardless of what it was, would have had very little, if any, impact on how Trump and the WH behaved. We know HHS Sec. Azar was alerting them in Jan and Feb and was neutered because of it. We know Navarro wrote his letter in Jan. There were intelligence briefings possibly as far back as November.

There's nothing that China could have done to make Trump a little less Trumpy.

We agree that Trump would have continued to be Trump in the Jan timeframe even if CDC & WHO were more engaged and China was more transparent.

We disagree on when he would have gotten more serious. I say on the Mar 11 or 12 "I can't read speech" when Trump got serious. Good chance he would have gotten to that speech earlier with more pressure from scientistis, press, other countries etc.

Let's not forget about the rest of the world. Would the other countries have benefited if CDC, WHO & China transparency in early Jan?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and what does that have to do with a CDC team that could have been tracking cases around the globe and in the US, isolating cases, and tracing them back to the origin? would have made a huge difference in the spread here in the US.

Er ... because the CDC and WHO team would have been on the ground and given us unfiltered accounts of what's happening in the early stages?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

We disagree on when he would have gotten more serious. I say on the Mar 11 or 12 "I can't read speech" when Trump got serious. Good chance he would have gotten to that speech earlier with more pressure from scientistis, press, other countries etc.

Sometimes I wonder if you are watching the same presidency as the rest of us. What makes you think he would have heeded their Advice any sooner? What has he ever done to make you think he would have reacted any differently?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Sometimes I wonder if you are watching the same presidency as the rest of us. What makes you think he would have heeded their Advice any sooner? What has he ever done to make you think he would have reacted any differently?

Here's how I see it

1) He "heeded" advice on Mar 11 or 12
2) He did this based on Fauci, Birx, models etc.
3) If China welcomed the non-Chinese experts (and media), these experts would have gotten the information, models earlier to Trump
4) Wouldn't even 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 days earlier have helped?

Let me reiterate -

Trump and US government slow response is not blameless.

I am just stating that China has the majority of the blame in the initial stages.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Here's how I see it

1) He "heeded" advice on Mar 11 or 12
2) He did this based on Fauci, Birx, models etc.
3) If China welcomed the non-Chinese experts (and media), these experts would have gotten the information, models earlier to Trump
4) Wouldn't even 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 days earlier have helped?

and what makes you think Trump wouldn't have looked at those models and the current numbers in the States and done exactly what he ended up doing.

Do you not realize the man in incapable of thinking more than 1 step ahead?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and what makes you think Trump wouldn't have looked at those models and the current numbers in the States and done exactly what he ended up doing.

Do you not realize the man in incapable of thinking more than 1 step ahead?

How about a question of my own ... and what makes you think China is blameless or doesn't have majority of the blame in the initial stages?