POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Dutch just copy and pastes from twitter. This is funny:

We retracted our single-year legislator report cards after warning about their unreliability - GovTrack.us

That's too many words. We will just keep saying "leftist" or "Marxist" not knowing what those words mean, but they sound scary.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The take us backward thing is 100% spot on and the right doesn't even want to do it for the actual reasons parts of America was better. They look at gay people in the closet, black people knowing their place, women not having rights, and children having jobs as the reason the country prospered.

The reality is it had more to do with new deal socialism, strong unions, child labor protections, job safety regulations. All things their parents fought for to make their lives better. They want to undo all of it mostly out of bigotry and fear.

Yup. But hey, rich people also get tax cuts so.....

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Yup. But hey, rich people also get tax cuts so.....

Adjusting for inflation, we had less than 50 billionares then. Today we have about 750.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I still think this a key reason why Tim Ryan lost to JD Vance in the Ohio Senate race.

The messaging was basically

Ryan - "I am technically a democrat but not really"
Vance - "This guy is definitely a democrat"

Also Tim Ryan's ads had him throwing footballs at TVs for some reason.

But Ryan significantly out performed, it was just too difficult to overcome the GOP advantage in OH.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Obama is the only Dem politician who should go within 100 feet of sports equipment when cameras are around.

Timing of seeing both the posts here and the tweet below to perfect not to post:

German Foreign Minister @ABaerbock - who used to be a trampolinist - tries out the trampoline herself during a visit to para-athletes at TSV Bayer Leverkusen 04 today pic.twitter.com/d4OmF2PaP7

— Mathieu von Rohr (@mathieuvonrohr) July 30, 2024

[Atocep]

The right both upset and not knowing how to respond to weird is entertaining as he'll. Jesse Watters demanded video proof that JD Vance fucked a couch.

[Atocep]

The key difference between deplorables and weird is the deplorables comment was attached to supporting Trump without context. So they wore it as a badge of honor. Weird is attached to actual policy thats unpopular and weird which then gets attached to the candidates and JD Vance is weird himself so he's not helping.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

That's too many words. We will just keep saying "leftist" or "Marxist" not knowing what those words mean, but they sound scary.

Man, In just stoked to hear you would never identify as a Marxist. There is hope for you yet.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Man, In just stoked to hear you would never identify as a Marxist. There is hope for you yet.

Dutch, I'm not going to assume that you don't know what a Marxist is, but most of the Republicans that use that term wouldn't know who a Marxist is if Karl Marx bit them on the knee.

[GrantDawg]

There was someone from the Heritage Foundation that that said they were not worried about Kamala Harris because they had already won. I'm getting a sinking fear this is what he meant:

ROLLING STONE: “At least 70 pro-Trump conspiracists are election officials in key battleground counties — and they are poised to make a giant mess on Election Day…”

The ones who put the country first last time have been replaced. https://t.co/R3ZSlsFqen pic.twitter.com/tM3nuF9F32

— The Tennessee Holler (@TheTNHoller) July 30, 2024

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Dutch, I'm not going to assume that you don't know what a Marxist is, but most of the Republicans that use that term wouldn't know who a Marxist is if Karl Marks bit them on the knee.

To be fair, in a zombie apocalypse I'm not worrying about if the zombie trying to gnaw on me was Karl Marx or Richard Marks.

[Ksyrup]

Paul Dans stepped down from The Heritage Foundation. I'm assuming this is at the request of Trump and is solely being done so Trump can look less crazy and push back on all of the "of course you know what P25 is" talk, as a tangible sign that he isn't for it. And then, if/when he wins, suddenly the P25 gears start rolling.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Paul Dans stepped down from The Heritage Foundation. I'm assuming this is at the request of Trump and is solely being done so Trump can look less crazy and push back on all of the "of course you know what P25 is" talk, as a tangible sign that he isn't for it. And then, if/when he wins, suddenly the P25 gears start rolling.

He still has several of the architects of the plan working for his campaign, and JD Vance wrote a forward for the book version.

[Lathum]

The GOP is trying so hard to do the "we aren't weird, you guys are weird because you think a man can give birth" and it is failing miserably.

[Brian Swartz]

Whether it works or not is another matter, but as I've said a number of times in the past, people on this board tend to drastically underestimate how 'weird' much of the rhetoric of modern Democrats is to people who are not left-of-center, and even some amount who are.

[Swaggs]

Seems to be some Twitter smoke that Beshear is going to be the VP pick. Not sure how I feel about that, but I guess it usually doesn't affect things too much.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Whether it works or not is another matter, but as I've said a number of times in the past, people on this board tend to drastically underestimate how 'weird' much of the rhetoric of modern Democrats is to people who are not left-of-center, and even some amount who are.

Like what?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like what?

Like a man kissing another man, a person with a penis identifying as a woman, not using outdated terms like retard and homo, generally considering the feelings of other human being in our actions, things like that.

[Brian Swartz]

A few examples:

- A third at most of Americans favor phasing out fossil fuels completely
- about 70% say athletes should compete in their birth gender, and slightly more say we've gone too far in accepting transgender people than that we've not gone far enough
- Almost half don't have a settled opinion on the Israel-Gaza issue; those that do lean a bit to the side of us favoring Israel too much, but that's still less than a quarter who say that, much less be in the 'stop the genocide' camp.
- The whole 'low unemployment means the economy is good, regardless of inflation' deal.
- Some minorities favor stronger immigration restrictions by strong margins.

Aggressively pursuing net zero (which is favored in general but not on a reasonable accelerated timeframe or with the types of policies that would be necessary), the trend towards things like uncritical, universal body positivity, the protests expressly in favor of Hamas with slogans like Death to Israel and River to the Sea as opposed to just 'maybe we should consider not funding this', and so on.

It's not about who is right on these issues mind you; I'm on record for example as someone in favor of getting to net zero as quickly as possible. But these are some of the kinds of issues where the typical moderate/independent tends to look at it and lump it in the weird/dangerous category.

The general political environment right now is not one of 'Trump is weird, Democrats are normal'. It's 'which one of these bizarre parties is the least bad', and for a non-trivial amount amount of independents, that's not Democrats.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

A few examples:

- A third at most of Americans favor phasing out fossil fuels completely
- about 70% say athletes should compete in their birth gender, and slightly more say we've gone too far in accepting transgender people than that we've not gone far enough
- Almost half don't have a settled opinion on the Israel-Gaza issue; those that do lean a bit to the side of us favoring Israel too much, but that's still less than a quarter who say that, much less be in the 'stop the genocide' camp.

Aggressively pursuing net zero (which is favored in general but not on a reasonable accelerated timeframe or with the types of policies that would be necessary), the trend towards things like uncritical, universal body positivity, the protests expressly in favor of Hamas with slogans like Death to Israel and River to the Sea as opposed to just 'maybe we should consider not funding this', and so on.

It's not about who is right on these issues mind you; I'm on record for example as someone in favor of getting to net zero as quickly as possible. But these are some of the kinds of issues where the typical moderate/independent tends to look at it and lump it in the weird/dangerous category.

None of those issues are supported by the majority of Democrats. We're drilling more oil than we ever have under Biden. Democrats have overwhelmingly supported Israel to the point you can count on one hand the number of elected leaders who have spoken out about the genocide. And Democrats have mostly sat out transgender issues as that's something Republicans fetishize over.

You're citing things that just aren't happening among elected Democrats.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It also gives me the impression of not really taking seriously how Democrat rhetoric appears to people who are, say, roughly similar to Jon or to the right of him politically. Some of it even to independents.

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

A few examples:

- A third at most of Americans favor phasing out fossil fuels completely
- about 70% say athletes should compete in their birth gender, and slightly more say we've gone too far in accepting transgender people than that we've not gone far enough
- Almost half don't have a settled opinion on the Israel-Gaza issue; those that do lean a bit to the side of us favoring Israel too much, but that's still less than a quarter who say that, much less be in the 'stop the genocide' camp.
- The whole 'low unemployment means the economy is good, regardless of inflation' deal.
- Some minorities favor stronger immigration restrictions by strong margins.

Aggressively pursuing net zero (which is favored in general but not on a reasonable accelerated timeframe or with the types of policies that would be necessary), the trend towards things like uncritical, universal body positivity, the protests expressly in favor of Hamas with slogans like Death to Israel and River to the Sea as opposed to just 'maybe we should consider not funding this', and so on.

It's not about who is right on these issues mind you; I'm on record for example as someone in favor of getting to net zero as quickly as possible. But these are some of the kinds of issues where the typical moderate/independent tends to look at it and lump it in the weird/dangerous category.

The general political environment right now is not one of 'Trump is weird, Democrats are normal'. It's 'which one of these bizarre parties is the least bad', and for a non-trivial amount amount of independents, that's not Democrats.

If this is your list I'm perfectly fine with being labeled as weird by people that want Christian Nationalism, an authoritarian government, the elimination of equal rights, want to inspect child genitals, want to ban books, arrest librarians, eliminate no fault divorce, want to ban or limit contraceptives, want to ban IVF, and generally want to take us back to the 1950s.

These aren't two sides of the same coin or even in the same ballpark of weird.

[JPhillips]

For gawd sakes, the GOP literally calls all Dems pedophiles.

[RainMaker]

I get Fox News bashes their viewers over the head with it and they don't understand words like Marxist or Communist. But it's odd that people make the Democrats out to be leftist extremists. The party has been Center-Right for decades and would be considered an extremely far-right party in almost any other Western nation.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

A few examples:

- A third at most of Americans favor phasing out fossil fuels completely
- about 70% say athletes should compete in their birth gender, and slightly more say we've gone too far in accepting transgender people than that we've not gone far enough
- Almost half don't have a settled opinion on the Israel-Gaza issue; those that do lean a bit to the side of us favoring Israel too much, but that's still less than a quarter who say that, much less be in the 'stop the genocide' camp.
- The whole 'low unemployment means the economy is good, regardless of inflation' deal.
- Some minorities favor stronger immigration restrictions by strong margins.

Aggressively pursuing net zero (which is favored in general but not on a reasonable accelerated timeframe or with the types of policies that would be necessary), the trend towards things like uncritical, universal body positivity, the protests expressly in favor of Hamas with slogans like Death to Israel and River to the Sea as opposed to just 'maybe we should consider not funding this', and so on.

It's not about who is right on these issues mind you; I'm on record for example as someone in favor of getting to net zero as quickly as possible. But these are some of the kinds of issues where the typical moderate/independent tends to look at it and lump it in the weird/dangerous category.

The general political environment right now is not one of 'Trump is weird, Democrats are normal'. It's 'which one of these bizarre parties is the least bad', and for a non-trivial amount amount of independents, that's not Democrats.

People who are center/ left of center don't look at these things as weird, they look at them as policies they may or may not agree with.

Weird is Trump talking about electrocuting sharks and dressing head to to in Trump gear while flying a flag on your pick up truck.

There is a huge difference. Hell, a lot of republicans think MAGA is weird, they just dislike the laft more.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

A few examples:
and slightly more say we've gone too far in accepting transgender people than that we've not gone far enough

This is misleading. 36% of people think that. That makes them a plurality, but everyone else either thinks we've gone far enough, not far enough, or don't care. I think the 36% are the weird ones there. Another way to put it is 64% of people are either directly in opposition to or don't care about Republican messaging on the issue.

[GrantDawg]

They have announced Biden is going headline the open to the Democratic Convention, and the first night will be on his accomplishment in his term.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

They have announced Biden is going headline the open to the Democratic Convention, and the first night will be on his accomplishment in his term.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Hope it starts before 8PM EST

[Passacaglia]

Remember when Republicans lost their mind because they saw a video of AOC dancing? That's weird, in a different way than 'low unemployment is good regardless of inflation' is.

[Lathum]

Just so I can remind Brian what weird looks like

MAGA Trumpers are #WeirdAF pic.twitter.com/iCMxxIwZ5a

— Amy Lynn���� (@AmyLynnStL) July 30, 2024

[sovereignstar v2]

All of the sudden I feel like pancakes

[Ksyrup]

"You'll never know want or loneliness again." Trump said. "The world was cruel to you, but you have Trump now." pic.twitter.com/voxGTxw9Dn

— Tim Pool (@Timcast) July 30, 2024

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If this is your list I'm perfectly fine with being labeled as weird by people that want Christian Nationalism, an authoritarian government, the elimination of equal rights, want to inspect child genitals, want to ban books, arrest librarians, eliminate no fault divorce, want to ban or limit contraceptives, want to ban IVF, and generally want to take us back to the 1950s.

These aren't two sides of the same coin or even in the same ballpark of weird.

You are being too generous. The things Brian thinks are strange are actually political issues, at least. And he’s being pretty damn lazy, since the last three are things you could generically apply to the left and right. Trump is spending time talking about Hannibal Lector, raking forest floors to end forest fires, injecting bleach and sunlight to cure health issues, and sharks versus battery powered boats.

Lazy, unserious both sidesism. Not worth the effort really. These sets of issues look the same to him from up on that high horse.

[GrantDawg]

The first rally for Harris and her VP pick is set for next Tuesday in Philly. So expect the announcement that day, but the leak will probably be Monday, if not sooner.

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[Lathum]

Stop calling Republicans weird pic.twitter.com/QPjiswFtrC

— Alex Cole (@acnewsitics) July 30, 2024

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The first rally for Harris and her VP pick is set for next Tuesday in Philly. So expect the announcement that day, but the leak will probably be Monday, if not sooner.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

In Philly? Makes Shapiro seem likely.

[CrimsonFox]

it's only fitting that a joke band end their career over a joke

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

"You'll never know want or loneliness again." Trump said. "The world was cruel to you, but you have Trump now." pic.twitter.com/voxGTxw9Dn

— Tim Pool (@Timcast) July 30, 2024

Rabbit learns to talk just so it can scream "I NEED AN ADULT!"

[Brian Swartz]

A number of people are missing or ignoring the point.

- I didn't post things that I think are weird. I think I was explicit about that.

Originally Posted by Lathum

People who are center/ left of center don't look at these things as weird, they look at them as policies they may or may not agree with.

Weird is Trump talking about electrocuting sharks and dressing head to to in Trump gear while flying a flag on your pick up truck.

There is a huge difference.

There really isn't a huge difference, and things like flying flag on your truck are not weird in a number of places in the country, and not things that just MAGA does.

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm perfectly fine with being labeled as weird by people that want Christian Nationalism, an authoritarian government, the elimination of equal rights, want to inspect child genitals, want to ban books, arrest librarians, eliminate no fault divorce, want to ban or limit contraceptives, want to ban IVF, and generally want to take us back to the 1950s.

These aren't two sides of the same coin or even in the same ballpark of weird.

- It's not about whether MAGA thinks the list is weird for the most part, MAGA is gonna MAGA. It's about what people who think both parties are off the deep end think.

- Again, the list I posted is a lot more bizarre and dangerous to some not-MAGA people than your list is, no matter how you frame it. This is really the main point: when you get to a place where you think 'what I believe is normal, and those who disagree are weird/bizarre/dangerous', it gets very hard to put yourself in the position of those who don't accept your core assumptions.

For example, some of the people I'm talking about it would not share your definition of what equal rights means, or what the practical possibilities of it are, or what the value of it is. They would be concerned about the authoritarianism on display on the left as well. They would point out that most the attacks on free speech aren't coming from banning b ooks/librarians, but from cancel culture/political correctness/whatever your favorite term is, deplatforming people who say the wrong thing or did so 20 years ago, wanting misinformation that sometimes is actually found to be accurate (oops) removed from social media, and so on.

There are fair-minded people who look at what you think and what MAGA thinks and like parts of each while hating others, and believe both sides are nuts. To win any kind of long-term cultural/societal improvement from our current situation, that is the gap that has to be crossed.

[larrymcg421]

Shapiro has surged to over .60 on PredictIt.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

- Again, the list I posted is a lot more bizarre and dangerous to some not-MAGA people than your list is, no matter how you frame it. This is really the main point: when you get to a place where you think 'what I believe is normal, and those who disagree are weird/bizarre/dangerous', it gets very hard to put yourself in the position of those who don't accept your core assumptions.

The things you listed though are not things the Democrats support or are doing. You're just making up a hypothetical party that doesn't exist.

And this isn't about what's weird to MAGA or progressives. It's what is weird to the moderate suburban voter. The people who will ultimately decide the race. Spinning some economic numbers isn't as weird as being obsessed with your kids genitals.

[Danny]

99% of maga isnt arguing or posting about the politcal positions Brian posted as being weird. To them its the gays, blacks, trans, woke agenda etc that they fixate on. So yes what they focus on is much weirder than liberal political policies.

[thesloppy]

I don't even understand Brian's point, and I doubt he does either. Republicans have been shrieking absolutely vile shit across the aisle for 7 years running, but Democrats should probably change their fossil fuel policies?

[PilotMan]

Hey what's the point of having Jewish Space Lasers if we can't use them?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I don't even understand Brian's point, and I doubt he does either. Republicans have been shrieking absolutely vile shit across the aisle for 7 years running, but Democrats should probably change their fossil fuel policies?

I think I've expressed it reasonably clearly at a minimum. I haven't said, and am not saying, that Democrats should necessarily change their policies. I'm in favor of all people advocating for what they genuinely believe, full stop.

I'm suggesting being aware of how distant some of them are from how the typical independent/moderate voter views the world, nevermind unreachable MAGA types. When one couches it in terms like 'shrieking absolutely vile shit', the perspective that ... wait a minute, some of what 'we' think is considered by others and not just the wingnuts to be absolutely vile shit. Rainmaker referenced obsession with your kids genitals, but who is really obsessed with that? From a certain point of view, that would be the people who think it's perfectly fine and even something to be encouraged for those under the age of consent to have medical procedures of a gender transition nature.

When that awareness is not present, it's all too easy to just vilify MAGA and say 'well of course Democrats are far more 'normal' - whatever that means - than they are'. It's not nearly that simple.

[Passacaglia]

Is there a backstory to the bunny thing? I have no idea what that's about.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Rainmaker referenced obsession with your kids genitals, but who is really obsessed with that? From a certain point of view, that would be the people who think it's perfectly fine and even something to be encouraged for those under the age of consent to have medical procedures of a gender transition nature.

The people who want the state interjecting itself into the medical decisions of me and my family are the weird ones.

The people who want to monitor periods so they can try and detect pregnancy are the weird ones. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/women...ants-rcna71167

The ones who want genital inspections of any girl who seems to be a little too good at high school sports are the weird ones. https://kansasreflector.com/2023/04/...-simple-truth/

The people who want people to show their birth certificates before they go into a public bathroom are the weird ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...6_Security_Act

Maybe I have the minority view. But I don't think so.

[albionmoonlight]

dola:

I get that I'm posting too much in this thread and unnecessarily raising the temperature.

I think that I am honestly just giddy that the official Dem messaging apparatus has managed to go, like, 2 weeks without shooting itself in the dick. I keep expecting to wake up one day and check the news and see that Chuck Schumer gave some "Please remember that we suck and you should actually vote for the Republicans" speech.

But I'll chill. Time to get back to reality and all that.

[Ksyrup]

From the party of personal freedom and limited government intrusion into peoples' lives, too.

I love how the GOP has morphed into something that is largely unrecognizable to a GOPer from 15-20 years ago, but anyone who doesn't support the current iteration of the party is somehow a RINO. I mean, parties are allowed to evolve and all that, but be honest about it - the positions have changed. You've been overtaken by the types of weirdos who started the Tea Party crap and wholesale changed a lot of basic personal freedom, economic, and foreign policy positions and coupled that with doubling and tripling down on conservative social issues, and WE'VE (former GOPers) changed?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

When that awareness is not present, it's all too easy to just vilify MAGA and say 'well of course Democrats are far more 'normal' - whatever that means - than they are'. It's not nearly that simple.

Because they are and you have been given numerous examples of why, yet as usual you see the world from a much higher intellectual plane than the rest of us so we will never understand.

[HerRealName]

Brian's take on the 'weird' discourse is awfully similar to super weird Matt Walsh's take. That's a logical fallacy of some sort but illustrative of something.

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