The Stock Market thread

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Tariffs are why we don't have an increase in EVs. The literal thing you're defending.

Tariffs are the reason why we don't have cheap Chinese EVs. The Infrastructure bill should have increased domestic EV build/adoption (but I am on record in saying I didn't think Mayor Pete did a great job).

I'm arguing against dependence on China. I am arguing for increased self/allied-reliance in strategic areas of which EV/infrastructure is one aspect.

China is 20% of their revenue and a bigger share of their profits. The CEO of Apple just announced investing more in China. They're moving some manufacturing to India and Brazil (I guess they don't count in the game geopolitics for some reason) but that's mainly for costs as China shifts to a more consumer led economy.

My statement was simply ...

Apple is moving away from China (delinking). They are betting on India and that's a smart move.

See CNBC article below ...

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/20/appl...expansion.html

For years, Tim Cook has been bullish on India. Now, he’s betting big on the South Asian giant as Apple shifts its focus away from China and expands its footprint in India.

Still, analysts told CNBC the iPhone-maker’s dependency on China will remain for years to come.

There’s potential for India to “become the next China” for Apple production, but it could take as long as a decade before it happens, said Martin Yang, senior analyst of emerging technologies at Oppenheimer & Co.

Apple’s efforts to move its assembly of products from China became more urgent in the last five years as U.S.-China trade tensions intensified, and supply chain disruptions caused by Beijing’s zero-Covid policy unraveled.

And again, there is no "delinking" in a global economy. Apple and other American companies are owned by people from throughout the world. China has ownership stakes in all these companies and there is no way to prevent that.

There is no delinking from the global economy, true. There is delinking from China, it won't be 100% or even near 100%, but the trend is to reduce investments in China. Maybe your definition of delinking is different from mine?

There are multitudes of articles that report this. Google on "are us companies pulling out of china".

Do you know what the word isolationist means? I'm literally calling for the opposite here. You're the one who wants to wall off our economy like an old communist country.

I want to reduce our dependency on specifically China and

and be more selective in increasing trade and relationship with other countries, spread our investments around.

Yes, I know what the world "isolationist" means. Your criteria to be involved or only care about the persecution of another group of people "if it directly impacts me" or "if only your tax money pays for it" provides insight how you would engage the world.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is actually a little fun to watch these two go at it.

You are welcome!

Always glad to have a discussion on immigration, China and cars.

[RainMaker]

Why do geopolitics not matter with India, Brazil, Mexico or Canada?

And they are betting on India because China is becoming a consumer economy and too expensive to manufacture in. They aren't doing it to "de-link" or whatever you think is happening. Just shifting from a country that makes stuff to a country that buys stuff.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why do geopolitics not matter with India, Brazil, Mexico or Canada?

They do matter.

We were talking specifically about China because I view China as the #1 threat in the "war". If we want to expand the discussion to those countries, happy to do it. I'm not happy with India either but they are not near as much of a threat as China.

And they are betting on India because China is becoming a consumer economy and too expensive to manufacture in.

This is true but not the whole story. In addition to cheaper to manufacture things, Apple is trying to diversify to reduce risk/dependence in China, and also to increase market share in India (to offset the loss in market share in China).

They aren't doing it to "de-link" or whatever you think is happening. Just shifting from a company that makes stuff to a country that buys stuff.

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe it's the word "de-link", how about "de-coupling"? Same difference to me.

We are talking more than just Apple (e.g. again, think broader). Google on "are us companies pulling out of china" or "is us decoupling from china". Plenty of articles that will educate you some.

Or, tell you what. How about you provide me articles (non Twitter/X/Tiktok) that shows US is NOT in the process of decoupling from China? Then we can talk about facts vs opinions.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

We are talking more than just Apple (e.g. again, think broader). Google on "are us companies pulling out of china" or "is us decoupling from china". Plenty of articles that will educate you some.

Or, tell you what. How about you provide me articles (non Twitter/X/Tiktok) that shows US is NOT in the process of decoupling from China? Then we can talk about facts vs opinions.

I'll take the lack of response as we've concluded this discussion and you've not been able to find any articles to substantiate your argument that the US is NOT decoupling from China.



I'll add that to the list including your contention that Philippines is not a Democracy (e.g. also lack of response to my challenge below)

Originally Posted by Edward64

What a stretch. Shows your ignorance trying to compare Philippines with Russia.

I can quote plenty of legit sources/articles that says Russia is not a democracy. Unfortunately, you can't do the same for your opinion of Philippines. Go ahead, still waiting for your non-tiktok, non-twitter sources.

Let me know if you want to chat more.

[RainMaker]

The problem with these kind of threads is you expect people to Google stuff for you and you don't really know much to begin with. So here it is. Some big time decoupling!

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/10/impo...last-fall.html

But hey, there's some data showing Mexico and Canada gained on China after the tariffs. I wonder if China is just shipping their shit to those countries or having it manufactured there to avoid the tariffs. Just as they do when the shift their manufacturing to Vietnam and other countries (which Chinese companies have been doing anyway for cheaper labor). So you didn't hurt China, just added a tax to Americans to force them to buy inferior products made here.

I don't really know what to even debate regarding tariffs. We're working on like 50+ years of data showing it's a disaster every time it's implemented. So maybe take it up with almost every single economist in the world and tell them they're wrong. I don't even think the politicians implementing believe in them. It's just a way to help eliminate competition for their corporate donors.

And yes, I don't consider the Philippines a democracy. Nor any country that imprisons politicians from opposing parties and doesn't have a free press. I'm sure you can find some dumb NGO that gets funding from the State Department to tell you otherwise, but no free press and no open elections doesn't constitute a democracy in my book.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The problem with these kind of threads is you expect people to Google stuff for you and you don't really know much to begin with. So here it is. Some big time decoupling!

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/10/impo...last-fall.html

Thanks for the link. I now know where you are coming from.

You provide an article that says US China total imports is rebounding some in 2024 . Much of the stats and graphics in your article is for US worldwide import, not just from China. It's evident how shallow your knowledge is ... you also forgot that exports plays a role.

So, let's stay focused specifically on China as that is what we are talking about and not just focused on 1 year but the trend. A couple charts





Here's one for imports & exports (see first graphic)

The Contentious U.S.-China Trade Relationship | Council on Foreign Relations

We can quibble about accuracy, but you see the trend?

Also, I don't have the historical trends but other examples include restricting Nvidia/TSMC from selling their AI & other type chips.

But hey, there's some data showing Mexico and Canada gained on China after the tariffs. I wonder if China is just shipping their shit to those countries or having it manufactured there to avoid the tariffs. Just as they do when the shift their manufacturing to Vietnam and other countries (which Chinese companies have been doing anyway for cheaper labor). So you didn't hurt China, just added a tax to Americans to force them to buy inferior products made here.

It is true that other countries gain from this decoupling. China will need to import/export/invest elsewhere. US will need to do the same.

So? Your argument is that US is not decoupling. We clearly are.

[Edward64]

I don't really know what to even debate regarding tariffs. We're working on like 50+ years of data showing it's a disaster every time it's implemented. So maybe take it up with almost every single economist in the world and tell them they're wrong. I don't even think the politicians implementing believe in them. It's just a way to help eliminate competition for their corporate donors.

I don't know what you are debating. I'm sticking with the below which kicked it off, and debating geopolitics between US and China, of which de-coupling is one part.

Geopolitics?

Why don't you think it matters?

And yes, I don't consider the Philippines a democracy. Nor any country that imprisons politicians from opposing parties and doesn't have a free press. I'm sure you can find some dumb NGO that gets funding from the State Department to tell you otherwise, but no free press and no open elections doesn't constitute a democracy in my book.

Great, we now know you're talking about your opinion/definitions. Next time we have a debate, I have to remember to start off with "are we talking about your opinion or are we going to talk facts/reality".

Goes without saying, if you have any legit 3rd party corroboration (beyond just your opinion), post it as I requested below.

Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
What a stretch. Shows your ignorance trying to compare Philippines with Russia.

I can quote plenty of legit sources/articles that says Russia is not a democracy. Unfortunately, you can't do the same for your opinion of Philippines. Go ahead, still waiting for your non-tiktok, non-twitter sources.

[RainMaker]

Definition of what a democracy is is always an opinion. For instance, I don't consider Russia a democracy because they do the same thing(imprison opposition, ban free press). But they consider themselves a democracy and their allies do too. Heck, Bill Clinton called them one back in the 90's when he was helping them rig elections.