NCAA Investigation: Miami is now on the clock

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just keeps getting worse. Miami attorneys provide transcript showing that fired investigators lied during interviews to push for information.

Miami asserts more NCAA misconduct : Sports

[molson]

That's a pretty standard interview technique. Unless there's some specific rule in the NCAA's agreement with the universities not to do that, I don't see the problem there.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

That's a pretty standard interview technique. Unless there's some specific rule in the NCAA's agreement with the universities not to do that, I don't see the problem there.

Standard technique for cops or NCAA investigators? Seems a bit ridiculous at an organizational level, especially given that the employees have already been fired for improper conduct. If this was the only thing found, I might agree. Given the healthy level of skepticism towards the NCAA at this point, it's yet another log on the fire.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

dola

Katz weighs in on the investigative tactics.......

Frank Haith deserves to have name cleared from Miami mess -- men's college basketball - ESPN

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Standard technique for cops or NCAA investigators? Seems a bit ridiculous at an organizational level, especially given that the employees have already been fired for improper conduct. If this was the only thing found, I might agree. Given the healthy level of skepticism towards the NCAA at this point, it's yet another log on the fire.

Investigations of any kind. I haven't read the whole Miami letter to the NCAA, but I'd be curious as to what rule/law they cite (if any) as to why this type of questioning is "impermissible". I figure Miami just realizes that they have the NCAA on their heels, and public support for them is increasing, and public disdain for the NCAA is increasing, so they're just going for the jugular now.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

Investigations of any kind. I haven't read the whole Miami letter to the NCAA, but I'd be curious as to what rule/law they cite (if any) as to why this type of questioning is "impermissible". I figure Miami just realizes that they have the NCAA on their heels, and public support for them is increasing, and public disdain for the NCAA is increasing, so they're just going for the jugular now.

Well, duh. It involves someone currently connected with the University of Missouri. Otherwise MBBF would have about 50 less posts in this thread.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

Investigations of any kind. I haven't read the whole Miami letter to the NCAA, but I'd be curious as to what rule/law they cite (if any) as to why this type of questioning is "impermissible". I figure Miami just realizes that they have the NCAA on their heels, and public support for them is increasing, and public disdain for the NCAA is increasing, so they're just going for the jugular now.

I'm assuming you haven't read the article. It lays out the lawyer's argument pretty clearly.

With that said, public shaming of entities/executives has been a pretty effective method of late when it comes to the NCAA and its member institutions. There's a lot of hypocrisy to point out and use against them. I also don't think a ruling by the NCAA against Miami or its coaches is going to end it either. There's likely to be multiple lawsuits and it's not very likely that it ends well for the NCAA.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm assuming you haven't read the article. It lays out the lawyer's argument pretty clearly.

With that said, public shaming of entities/executives has been a pretty effective method of late when it comes to the NCAA and its member institutions. There's a lot of hypocrisy to point out and use against them. I also don't think a ruling by the NCAA against Miami or its coaches is going to end it either. There's likely to be multiple lawsuits and it's not very likely that it ends well for the NCAA.

I did read the article (but not Miami's letter), and the only thing it says about that is "this investigative tactic is clearly contrary to the NCAA's principles, procedures, and expectations, and is further evidence of the enforcement staff's bad faith and unethical behavior in the Investigation", but it doesn't get into what NCAA procedures he's talking about (other than broadly labeling them "bedrock principles"). Basically, all he's saying is that lying is always bad, and therefore its against the rules. If the NCAA isn't allowed to use trickery in uncovering things, then they might as well not even bother. I guarantee you that Yahoo Sports guy who had the original story on all this didn't get all his information by just picking up a phone and asking direct questions to people.

Edit: I do think the NCAA should drop the Miami thing because it's just been hopelessly botched, and because its just taken too long. And Miami and others should get out of the NCAA because I don't think they have any intention of sincerely following the rules they agreed to follow - they just know that they're much smarter than the NCAA and will always be able to get away with it (which is true.)

[flounder]

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[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Emmert now receiving scrutiny from USA Today. Showing a pattern of passing the blame when things go wrong......

Digging into the past of NCAA President Mark Emmert

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

Well, duh. It involves someone currently connected with the University of Missouri. Otherwise MBBF would have about 50 less posts in this thread.

Agree not sure why he thinks Haith didn't cheat. Its like the people around here in St. Louis that didn't think McGwire was dirty. On a semi-related note... Wasn't Haith pretty popular down in Austin? I thought he was the guy who landed a lot of your stars like Gibson, Aldridge, and Durant.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Agree not sure why he thinks Haith didn't cheat.

That's simply false. If you're going to make an argument, at least start by using a comment that has some basis in what I've said.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Forde weighs in on Emmert as well......

Attitude, organizational shortcomings make NCAA president Mark Emmert easy target at Final Four - Yahoo! Sports

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Forde weighs in on Emmert as well......

Attitude, organizational shortcomings make NCAA president Mark Emmert easy target at Final Four - Yahoo! Sports

This is a well-written column that addresses the nuances & complexities of the situation - kudos to Forde.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Here's the OTL piece as well on the subject.........

OTL: Mark Emmert Under Scrutiny - ESPN Video - ESPN

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What a mess. I feel sorry for Duncan. Just on the job and he's forced to defend the stupidity of others.

NCAA lashes back at Miami, citing personal attacks - Colleges - Boston.com

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Compliance expert 'shocked' by NCAA's attempted rebuttal of dismissal request.......

NCAA expert responds to enforcement staff argument in Miami investigation - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wow. The hits just keep on coming. Haith's attorneys file a new lawsuit asking the court to investigate how NCAA was allowed to access his Bank of America personal account without receiving proper authorization from Haith or a court of law.

MU’s Haith Wants To Know How The NCAA Got His Bank Records

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looks like another big investigative article coming in the next few weeks from the Miami Herald related to the NCAA's handling of the Miami investigation. I've heard it will further cripple the investigation and may lead to additional firings.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Miami football player recants previous testimony citing 'intimidation tactics' of former NCAA investigator, now supports former Miami coach's version of events.

Miami's Dye: I felt 'intimidated' during original NCAA testimony - CBSSports

Also, Shapiro, who is NCAA's only real witness in Miami case, now admitting to perjury in previous court case.....

Convicted UM booster Shapiro says he lied on witness stand in federal trial - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Miami football player recants previous testimony citing 'intimidation tactics' of former NCAA investigator, now supports former Miami coach's version of events.

Miami's Dye: I felt 'intimidated' during original NCAA testimony - CBSSports

Intimidated by the NCAA investigator, or intimidated by Miami alums/fans/coaches/administrators to recant his testimony?

Forgive me if I'm a little jaded about this sort of thing, but I'm not just going to accept point blank that he's telling the truth now.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Intimidated by the NCAA investigator, or intimidated by Miami alums/fans/coaches/administrators to recant his testimony?

Forgive me if I'm a little jaded about this sort of thing, but I'm not just going to accept point blank that he's telling the truth now.

I'd agree at some level. I don't think you can believe any of these idiots at this point, NCAA or Miami-related. They're both shady at best.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Did Mark Emmert miss his moment? - Men's College Basketball Nation Blog - ESPN

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Will be interesting to see if the records get unsealed in this case.......

NCAA pushing back on unsealing of documents in McNair/USC case - CBSSports.com

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Will be interesting to see if the records get unsealed in this case.......

NCAA pushing back on unsealing of documents in McNair/USC case - CBSSports.com

Very interesting.

[Eaglesfan27]

Oregon decision supposed to be announced Weds and early word is they are barely getting slapped on the wrist. No bowl ban and minimal scholarship loss is what is being reported. USC gets hammered for Bush getting paid to leave school early and Oregon gets caught paying for players to come there and they get off with a slap on the wrist. The NCAA is so corrupt.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Oregon decision supposed to be announced Weds and early word is they are barely getting slapped on the wrist. No bowl ban and minimal scholarship loss is what is being reported. USC gets hammered for Bush getting paid to leave school early and Oregon gets caught paying for players to come there and they get off with a slap on the wrist. The NCAA is so corrupt.

While nothing surprises when it comes to the NCAA, if these rumors are true, I have to wonder why the case ever went in front of the COI in the first place? A light slap on the wrist is what Oregon proposed to the NCAA, and if the NCAA was OK with that, why wouldn't they have just agreed to a summary disposition at that point? Why drag it out further for no good reason?

I'm skeptical of rumors that are out right now (I think we'll get more credible leaks late in the day), but if it turns out Oregon gets a light slap on the wrist, it just further erodes any trust in the NCAA. Because it will clearly illustrate that the merits of a case bear very little connection to the penalties imposed, and that politics play a huge role in the outcome.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

While nothing surprises when it comes to the NCAA, if these rumors are true, I have to wonder why the case ever went in front of the COI in the first place? A light slap on the wrist is what Oregon proposed to the NCAA, and if the NCAA was OK with that, why wouldn't they have just agreed to a summary disposition at that point? Why drag it out further for no good reason?

I'm skeptical of rumors that are out right now (I think we'll get more credible leaks late in the day), but if it turns out Oregon gets a light slap on the wrist, it just further erodes any trust in the NCAA. Because it will clearly illustrate that the merits of a case bear very little connection to the penalties imposed, and that politics play a huge role in the outcome.

I am slightly hopeful the early rumors are false but Uncle Phil has a lot of clout.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I am slightly hopeful the early rumors are false but Uncle Phil has a lot of clout.

I really don't think he does. Nike is a public company, and besides, Nike needs the NCAA more than the NCAA needs Nike.

[Lathum]

Oregon Ducks put on probation by NCAA, loses scholarship - ESPN

Nike money goes a long way

[Chief Rum]

That's ridiculous.

As a UCLA fan, I was pretty jazzed about USC's sanctions, but the hit or miss punishments of the NCAA are starting to become much more trouble than they're worth.

Auburn gets nothing. Ohio State gets a slap on the wrist. Oregon gets a slap. We're still waiting on Miami (after multiple major investigation issues). Penn State gets hit hard for actions that technically don't fall under the purview of the NCAA (not that I disagree with those sanctions).

I can understand that the NCAA felt they needed to make a statement with USC after USC (or Mike Garrett really) was so arrogant in defying them, but this is stupid.

The NCAA comes off like a petulant and vindictive child who plays favorites.

[MrBug708]

The Nike giveth and the Nike demandeth

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not quite seeing the degree of angst angst over the sanctions here.

I mean, the penalties seem to be on the light side but then again, so does the infraction. From back in the spring "There is no information," the NCAA wrote in its report, "in the record that Lyles coerced or directed any prospect to ultimately choose Oregon."

Absent that, I'm not sure just how hard this could really have gone.

As for why this went to the COI in the first place, it seems to me that the reason might have been to get the show cause penalties on Kelly and an assistant.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I mean, the penalties seem to be on the light side but then again, so does the infraction. From back in the spring "There is no information," the NCAA wrote in its report, "in the record that Lyles coerced or directed any prospect to ultimately choose Oregon."

Absent that, I'm not sure just how hard this could really have gone.

Ya, it seems like there's a disconnect between what everybody knows/believes schools do and what the NCAA actually manages to "find" in its investigations. I'm sure if these schools got punished for what they actually did most of them would have gotten the death penalty by now. But the NCAA doesn't really have the ability, power, competence, or willingness to actually make damning findings against schools. When they try, it doesn't go well.

[Logan]

I saw someone on Twitter (maybe McMurphy) who said the playbook is quite clearly now:

1) Cheat.
2) Comply with the NCAA after you get caught.
3) See #1.

[Eaglesfan27]

Nike money goes a long way.

[molson]

What's the Nike theory, specifically? Or are people just being vague? Doesn't the money from all of these programs "go a long way?" Is there anyone who doesn't believe that USC, Oregon, Miami, and the SEC directly and indirectly pay recruits and their families? And strong-arm the NCAA (through their money, power, and lawyers?)

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

What's the Nike theory, specifically?

I think it's like all the NBA conspiracy theories. Except here, it's a $55B company willing to stick its neck out on the line to protect a university's football program for a few years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

What's the Nike theory, specifically? Or are people just being vague? Doesn't the money from all of these programs "go a long way?" Is there anyone who doesn't believe that USC, Oregon, Miami, and the SEC directly and indirectly pay recruits and their families? And strong-arm the NCAA (through their money, power, and lawyers?)

At the risk of a possible sidetrack ... I believe there are definitely recruits getting straight-up paid in cash under the table at a large number of schools.

I do not believe that every scholarship football player is getting paid beyond the limit of the rules (a free pizza in his hometown once in a while not included)

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

I think it's like all the NBA conspiracy theories. Except here, it's a $55B company willing to stick its neck out on the line to protect a university's football program for a few years.

Nike is so much bigger than Oregon i can't believe they would give two shits. Oregon obviously has more money because of Nike, and that is very beneficial in running a football program, but all these schools have lots of money.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by molson

Nike is so much bigger than Oregon i can't believe they would give two shits. Oregon obviously has more money because of Nike, and that is very beneficial in running a football program, but all these schools have lots of money.

This. The "Nike/Phil Knight bullying the NCAA" angle betrays a complete lack of understanding of business by those that push that interpretation. Phil Knight doesn't own Nike - he's Chairman of the Board of a publicly traded company. Nike makes a ton of money from their contracts with NCAA schools.

The idea that Phil Knight would threaten the NCAA over punishments to Oregon presumes that the Nike board would be OK with him being so cavalier about a hugely profitable portion of their business, and risk seeing that business go to Addidas and UnderArmour. While I'm sure Knight wields a lot of power with the board (and we all know shareholders are mostly sheeple), the bottom line wields more power, and such a move by Knight would likely be seen as dangerously reckless and he'd be booted.

[dawgfan]

Dola -

This slap on the wrist of Oregon isn't about Nike or Phil Knight, it's about how completely ineffectual the NCAA enforcement staff is. While they didn't have any direct proof of Lyles unduly steering his proteges to Oregon, anyone with an ounce of logic could understand the competitive advantages Oregon was getting by paying him a lot of money (since it's been demonstrated that they weren't actually paying him for scouting info).

But because the NCAA enforcement staff is gutted and the organization is dealing with the fallout from the botched investigations of Miami and the Shabazz/UCLA case, they punted on sticking their necks out in any way on this case.

[Kodos]

UNC faculty leader pushed rewrite of key report to keep NCAA away | UNC scandal | NewsObserver.com

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Kodos

UNC faculty leader pushed rewrite of key report to keep NCAA away | UNC scandal | NewsObserver.com

And I believe the NCAA will get around to do anything about this in...oh...never.

In semi-related news: Marijuana, license charges dropped against UNC's Hairston | North Carolina | NewsObserver.com

At least the NCAA will spend a few nanoseconds investigating the car rental with the convicted felon involved, but that should go quietly into the night at some point as well. Nothing to see here folks.

Meanwhile, I suspect State will be put on probation for this at some point.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by the article

Earlier drafts of the faculty report said: “Although we may never know for certain, it was our impression from multiple interviews that the involvement of Deborah Crowder seems to have been that of an athletics supporter who was extremely close to personnel in Athletics, and who managed to use the system to help players by directing them to enroll in courses in the African and Afro-American Studies department that turned out to be aberrant or irregularly taught.”

The final version said: “Although we may never know for certain, it was our impression from multiple interviews that a department staff member managed to use the system to help players by directing them to enroll in courses in the African and Afro-American Studies Department that turned out to be aberrant or irregularly taught.”

Would you look at that cover-up. Keep up the good fight, N&O...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Good article.....

A year removed from Penn State decision, NCAA president Mark Emmert finds himself amid another defining moment - ESPN

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Hilarious.

August 9, 2013, 6:13 PM ET
Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS -- The NCAA soon will be sending enforcement staff members back to school.

Interim enforcement chief Jonathan Duncan told The Associated Press it's part of a broader plan to give investigators a firsthand glimpse into what campus leaders contend with every day.

Duncan took over as the department head in March after an embarrassing scandal led to the ouster of Julie Roe Lach.

In five months, Duncan has devised a plan that includes more intensive staff training on NCAA rules, investigation and interview techniques, and the ever-changing world of campus life. He also plans to hire a director of quality control, a newly-created position that he hopes will help improve NCAA relations with school leaders in an attempt to help restore the department's tattered public image.

[miami_fan]

Are we really coming up on the two year anniversary of the start of this investigation? Two years?

[Izulde]

NCAA rules former Marine ineligible because he played rec league*football | SI Wire

More grist for the anti-NCAA mill.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Izulde

NCAA rules former Marine ineligible because he played rec league*football | SI Wire

More grist for the anti-NCAA mill.

Reinstated, with full eligibility.

NCAA rules Marine Steven Rhodes can play immediately for Middle Tennessee Blue Raiders - ESPN