Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[GrantDawg]

I encourage everyone to watch this entire @jaketapper segment which lays bare how deeply evil and cynical Hamas and its top funder the Islamic Republic are.

This does not mean governments are off the hook, but Hamas and the Islamic Republic do not wish for freedom... all they… pic.twitter.com/H6uALK5QQX

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) November 7, 2023

[Edward64]

Good to see some civilians getting out of there.

The Israelis share this footage today from Salah a Din road and it shows the continuation of the exodus from #Gaza city to the south, while the UN confirms a sharp increase as well.

The Israelis share this footage today from Salah a Din road and it shows the continuation of the exodus from #Gaza city to the south, while the UN confirms a sharp increase as well. pic.twitter.com/BWtmhEmofG

— Gaza Report - اخبار غزة (@gaza_report) November 8, 2023

[Edward64]

Interesting story about how an Israeli called a dentist in Gaza 3 separate times to tell him to evacuate buildings within 2-3 hours each time. The Israeli knew details of the dentist and stayed on the phone with the dentist and he did his thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079

During this conflict, the Israeli military has phoned Gazans sometimes to warn them ahead of air strikes - Mahmoud's account gives an insight into one such phone call in an unprecedented level of detail.

The BBC contacted Mahmoud after multiple al-Zahra residents identified him as the man who received the warning call.

We cannot independently verify the contents of the call, which he recounted roughly three weeks after the event. The details, however, match those on a community Facebook group from the day as well as satellite images before and after the bombing.

The dentist asked the Israeli (while on the phone) to fire a shot, and then another to prove this guy was for real. And the Israeli did.

Mahmoud could not believe it when the man began speaking, he recalls.

People around him warned that the call may be fake. Since the war had begun, messages had been circulating in the community Facebook group warning of hoax calls and offering tips on identifying real Israeli evacuation orders.

Mahmoud asked the voice on the phone to fire a warning shot to prove this was real. If those still sleeping did not hear the screams from the streets then they would hear the shot, he thought.

A warning shot seemingly from nowhere, but perhaps from a drone, hit one of the apartment blocks under threat, he says.

"I asked him to 'shoot another warning shot before you bomb'," Mahmoud says. One more rang out.

I can only imagine the terror & weight of responsibility the dentist felt. That's a neighbor I want to have.

[GrantDawg]

They have arrested a suspect in the murder of Samantha Woll, the Synagogue president that was killed in Detroit. No information about who yet.


Edir: They are saying it was likely not a hate crime, so at least in that sense it is good news.

[Edward64]

I guess Hamas really didn't want the civilians to leave Gaza City after all. Can't lose those human shields.

‘We can’t ignore these people’: huge surge in numbers fleeing Gaza City | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Hamas indicated it was opposed to the ongoing evacuation, accusing the UN of colluding with the Israeli military in the “forced displacement” of residents of Gaza.

“UNRWA [the UN’s Palestinian refugee agency] and its officials bear responsibility for this humanitarian catastrophe, in particular the residents of the Gaza [City] area and north of it,” said Salama Maruf, head of the media bureau of Hamas.

[RainMaker]

They don't want them to give up the land because settlers will move in and take it. Holy shit read a book on the conflict to understand what's going on.

[RainMaker]

Like I don't blame people for leaving a genocide but the whole goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They don't want them to give up the land because settlers will move in and take it. Holy shit read a book on the conflict to understand what's going on.

Of course it does. It has absolutely nothing to do with using them as human shields which is a War Crime in and of it self. Hamas admitting that exact thing is just not important. Hamas providing no bomb shelters for the civilians while having extensive tunnels to protect themselves is not important. Only Jews bad. Got it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Of course it does. It has absolutely nothing to do with using them as human shields which is a War Crime in and of it self. Hamas admitting that exact thing is just not important. Hamas providing no bomb shelters for the civilians while having extensive tunnels to protect themselves is not important. Only Jews bad. Got it.

The human shield excuse has been used as justification for genocide for a long time. It's been debunked repeatedly by human rights organizations who had boots on the ground.

White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead | HRW

Again, this is not new stuff. You can read about the decades and decades of conflict. Israel has always targeted civilians. They aren't bombing bakeries, hospitals, and refugee camps to get Hamas. They're civilian targets and it's meant to send a message. Just like the execution of journalists and their families.

[Edward64]

re: giving up land. Let's have the civilians make their own decision if they want to stay or not.

There were some reports on Hamas preventing/discouraging civilians from leaving earlier. This statement lends credence to that.

[GrantDawg]

There is ample evidence of the fact Hamas is using civilians as human shields, not to mention Hamas leaders openly admitting it. Maybe you should read more than Hamas propaganda. But that would conflict with your very clear hatred of Jews.

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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

There is ample evidence of the fact Hamas is using civilians as human shields, not to mention Hamas leaders openly admitting it. Maybe you should read more than Hamas propaganda. But that would conflict with your very clear hatred of Jews.

Please post that ample evidence. I posted a link from Human Rights Watch that showed Israel lied about human shields. Here's another from the UN that showed they found zero evidence of this taking place in previous conflicts. You can find similar reports from Amnesty as well. This may be taking place, but it's been proven by independent organizations that it's a lie Israel frequently uses when committing war crimes.

https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodie...-HRC-12-48.pdf

It's a 25-mile stretch of land with over 2 million people. There is almost no way to fully separate civilian and military populations in such a narrow stretch of land. That's why you don't bomb civilian targets filled with civilians. This isn't hitting a terrorist target in rural Southern Lebanon.

And this has nothing to do with Jews. Just as opposition to Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa had nothing to do with anti-white racism. Another common tactic used to obfuscate atrocities back in the day.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

re: giving up land. Let's have the civilians make their own decision if they want to stay or not.

Totally agree. The civilian population of Gaza should not be held in a prison and should be allowed to come and go like the rest of the world. Haven't seen you call for the wall to be taken down or gates to be opened, but I didn't scroll far a back in the thread so maybe I missed it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

There is ample evidence of the fact Hamas is using civilians as human shields, not to mention Hamas leaders openly admitting it. Maybe you should read more than Hamas propaganda. But that would conflict with your very clear hatred of Jews.

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Oh yeah, let's not forget this one.

See at about 4:40. Weird thing to fess up to.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Totally agree. The civilian population of Gaza should not be held in a prison and should be allowed to come and go like the rest of the world. Haven't seen you call for the wall to be taken down or gates to be opened, but I didn't scroll far a back in the thread so maybe I missed it.

Huh? I'm all for border control. "Like the rest of the world"? You are living in fantasy land.

There's plenty of places for Gazans to move around in Gaza Strip that has not been bombed. Do you want to see that graphic again?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Huh? I'm all for border control. "Like the rest of the world"? You are living in fantasy land.

There's plenty of places for Gazans to move around in Gaza Strip that has not been bombed. Do you want to see that graphic again?

It's not border control; it's a siege.

And yes, the rest of the world is allowed to leave their city, state, country and travel to other places. Like you said, "let civilian populations make their own decisions".

[GrantDawg]

There is interview after interview of Hamas leaders admitting to the massive tunnel networks and their use for attacking Israel and protecting their fighters. You as much as admitted yourself when you said there isn't enough room for military installations in such a small area. The video I posted earlier from Jake Tapper showed Hamas leaders admitting the existence of the tunnels, admitting that they are fine with Palestinian citizens being "martyrs", and admitting they have every intention to continue with waves of October 7th attacks if given the opportunity. They are very open in their desire of a complete Jewish genocide.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not border control; it's a siege.

And yes, the rest of the world is allowed to leave their city, state, country and travel to other places. Like you said, "let civilian populations make their own decisions".

It's perfectly understandable for a country not to allow citizens of another country/territory (who she is at war with) to cross into her borders without strict control.

What's unreasonable about that?

If Gazans want to travel out of Gaza, go through a friendly country like Egypt. If West Bank Palestinians want to travel out of West Bank, go to Jordan. Unfortunately, both countries have travel restrictions on Palestinians from Gaza & West Bank. No surprise really considering all the history.

re: giving up land. Let's have the civilians make their own decision if they want to stay or not.

There were some reports on Hamas preventing/discouraging civilians from leaving earlier. This statement lends credence to that.

My statement above was re: Gaza civilians leaving Gaza City, going to safer places in Gaza Strip ... and not leaving Gaza Strip for another country which is the tangent you are taking us to.

And before you say there are no safer places in Gaza strip, see link below. About 3 weeks out of date but you get the idea, lots of places that are "safer" than Gaza city (e.g. South).

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[miked]

Yes, let's not forget that other arab countries have no qualms with leaving the Palestinians to their own. Egypt barely wants to open the Rafah crossing. Jordan has repeatedly passed on the chances to help. Most of the other countries, save Iran and Syria, have basically said no thanks.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miked

Yes, let's not forget that other arab countries have no qualms with leaving the Palestinians to their own. Egypt barely wants to open the Rafah crossing. Jordan has repeatedly passed on the chances to help. Most of the other countries, save Iran and Syria, have basically said no thanks.

I wonder if travel restrictions would free up more if Hamas said "no more fighting, no more smuggling of weapons, no more rocket attacks etc. we'll try the West Bank/Palestinian Authority way".

[GrantDawg]

No. Egypt's biggest fear is a mass of Palestinians filling the Sinai peninsula and then launching attacks on Israel and drawing them into a war. They would never trust Hamas promises not that Hamas would ever offer them.

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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

No. Egypt's biggest fear is a mass of Palestinians filling the Sinai peninsula and then launching attacks on Israel and drawing them into a war. They would never trust Hamas promises not that Hamas would ever offer them.

That might be part of it, but Sisi is a dictator who overthrew a democratically elected leader. That leader had much stronger ties to Palestinians (Muslim Brotherhood). Having 2 million people who support your political opponent is not good for holding on to power.

Not to mention that the US prefers Sisi and pays a considerable amount of money to keep him in power. They aren't going to upset their gravy train.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I wonder if travel restrictions would free up more if Hamas said "no more fighting, no more smuggling of weapons, no more rocket attacks etc. we'll try the West Bank/Palestinian Authority way".

You can just look up and see what kind of restrictions are placed on Arab civilians in the West Bank. The answer to your question is no.

Israel prefers Hamas over Fatah. They absolutely don't want Gaza leadership to be more like the West Bank.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

It's perfectly understandable for a country not to allow citizens of another country/territory (who she is at war with) to cross into her borders without strict control.

WTF are you talking about? Most of Gaza is refugees and refugee-descendants who had their land stolen from them. Their homeland is on the other side of the wall. They were forced into this prison.

Originally Posted by Edward64

If Gazans want to travel out of Gaza, go through a friendly country like Egypt. If West Bank Palestinians want to travel out of West Bank, go to Jordan. Unfortunately, both countries have travel restrictions on Palestinians from Gaza & West Bank. No surprise really considering all the history.

Egypt isn't a friendly country since the coup. They can't fly out since Israel destroyed their airport 20 years ago. They can't leave via boat since there is a naval blockade by Israel. And getting to the Rafah Crossing is easier said than done even if it was open. Israel just bombed a convoy of ambulances heading there the other day and routinely targets roads and highways that lead there.

As for the West Bank, what does that have to do with anything? Why are you even bringing those who live there up?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

There is interview after interview of Hamas leaders admitting to the massive tunnel networks and their use for attacking Israel and protecting their fighters. You as much as admitted yourself when you said there isn't enough room for military installations in such a small area. The video I posted earlier from Jake Tapper showed Hamas leaders admitting the existence of the tunnels, admitting that they are fine with Palestinian citizens being "martyrs", and admitting they have every intention to continue with waves of October 7th attacks if given the opportunity. They are very open in their desire of a complete Jewish genocide.

Just because Hamas doesn't care about civilians doesn't mean I have to support the genocide of those civilians. What you support is collective punishment.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not to give them $14 billion in weapons.

I actually kind of agree with you on fiscal grounds, but can we also stop giving money to gaza/hamas as well?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I actually kind of agree with you on fiscal grounds, but can we also stop giving money to gaza/hamas as well?

Throw in the Saudis, Egypt, Qatar, etc too. It's insane to read about how we still have tens of millions drinking through lead pipes whlie we throw hundreds of billions to other countries.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

WTF are you talking about? Most of Gaza is refugees and refugee-descendants who had their land stolen from them. Their homeland is on the other side of the wall. They were forced into this prison.

Specifically re: your tangent of travelling out of country. If Hamas was to live in peace with Israel and not stir up problems in Egypt (and Jordan), there would be no blockade, there would be no wall, there would not be this current war.

Unfortunately, neither Israel nor Egypt nor Jordan trust Hamas enough to believe they will keep their promises. Hence ... walls.

Egypt isn't a friendly country since the coup.

The Rafah wall crossing was built in 2009. Tensions existed before even then.

They can't fly out since Israel destroyed their airport 20 years ago. They can't leave via boat since there is a naval blockade by Israel. And getting to the Rafah Crossing is easier said than done even if it was open. Israel just bombed a convoy of ambulances heading there the other day and routinely targets roads and highways that lead there.

As for the West Bank, what does that have to do with anything? Why are you even bringing those who live there up?

So Israel stops Palestinians from getting to Rafah Crossing?

If talking about pre-Oct 7, I'd think it's more Hamas and Egyptians.

If talking about now, see below on where the bombing is concentrated at. Yes, some Southern parts got bombed but definitely safer than Gaza city.

And before you say there are no safer places in Gaza strip, see link below. About 3 weeks out of date but you get the idea, lots of places that are "safer" than Gaza city (e.g. South).

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

So tell me again, why does Hamas have children & grandma's as hostages?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Specifically re: your tangent of travelling out of country. If Hamas was to live in peace with Israel and not stir up problems in Egypt (and Jordan), there would be no blockade, there would be no wall, there would not be this current war.

We aren't talking about Hamas, we are talking about Palestinian civilians. Israel can ban every member of Hamas and kill them for all I care. The people being killed and imprisoned have nothing to do with Hamas.

Asking Egypt to take millions of refugees who are mostly women and children (the most expensive to the economy) so Israel can have its ethnostate seems like an unfair ask.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Unfortunately, neither Israel nor Egypt nor Jordan trust Hamas enough to believe they will keep their promises. Hence ... walls.

Again, what does Jordan have to do with this? Do you know where Gaza is on the map?

Originally Posted by Edward64

So tell me again, why does Hamas have children & grandma's as hostages?

They take hostages so they can trade for Palestinian hostages. In the past, Israel has given very favorable terms for hostage trades.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We aren't talking about Hamas, we are talking about Palestinian civilians. Israel can ban every member of Hamas and kill them for all I care. The people being killed and imprisoned have nothing to do with Hamas.

I guess this is a crux of our disagreement. One of the key drivers of this mess is Hamas, even pre-Oct 7. It has everything to do with Hamas.

Unfortunately, the not-Hamas Palestinians are being impacted by Hamas. If Hamas stops for real (in a fantasy world), then travel will free up more.

Asking Egypt to take millions of refugees who are mostly women and children (the most expensive to the economy) so Israel can have its ethnostate seems like an unfair ask.

We are talking about Jordan & Egypt letting Palestinians travel through their land, either as final destination or as a transit point. Both options are severely limited because of the threat & history of Hamas and Palestinian Authority.

Also, taking in millions of antagonistic Palestinians (many for justifiable reasons) and try to assimilate them or letting them cross freely into Israel seems like an unfair ask. Better to keep the border restrictions for now.

Again, what does Jordan have to do with this? Do you know where Gaza is on the map?

Jordan borders West Bank? There are Palestinians in West Bank? There is Hamas (and PA) in West Bank?

So when talking about Israel creating a "prison" where Palestinians can't come and go, need to toss in Jordan and Egypt into the equation. And why those countries restrict travel into and through their territory.

They take hostages so they can trade for Palestinian hostages. In the past, Israel has given very favorable terms for hostage trades.

Yes, I understand taking hostages for trade. But I'll ask again, why children & grandmas? And why continue to keep them, easy enough to release them to UNRWA. (Well, not anymore but certainly in the past 2-3 weeks).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The human shield excuse has been used as justification for genocide for a long time. It's been debunked repeatedly by human rights organizations who had boots on the ground.

White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead | HRW

re: Hamas using human shields ...

I scanned your report. It certainly does NOT debunk that Hamas has used human shields ever. It debunks 7 incidents in one conflict in 2009.

But let's hear it from the UN secretary general in this current conflict.

Israel-Gaza live news: Israel reports 10-hour battle at Hamas 'stronghold' as evacuation resumes - BBC News

The UN human rights chief has accused both Israel and Hamas of committing war crimes.

This is fair. Both sides is important

And UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres slammed Hamas for using people as human shields

There's the phrase.

... but also said that the number of civilians killed in Gaza showed something was "clearly wrong" with Israeli military operations

This is fair. Both sides is important

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Just because Hamas doesn't care about civilians doesn't mean I have to support the genocide of those civilians. What you support is collective punishment.

No I don't because I was against the bombing campaign to begin with. I just don't believe Jews drink the blood of babies. You seem to believe every piece of propaganda Hamas puts out.

[Edward64]

There's a report about how there were embedded journalists with Hamas as they crossed the border and went on their mayhem. The bottom of the article has the response from CNN, AP and Reuters which implies there is some truth to this.

Journalists with Hamas terrorists: Watchdog questions international media's presence

Reuters, AP, CNN and NYT photojournalists arrived at border alongside Hamas terrorists, documenting murder of Israeli civilians, lynching of soldier and kidnappings to Gaza; HonestReporting questions whether they coordinated with Hamas and whether their employers had foreknowledge of the attack

"Did the photojournalists who freelance for other media, like CNN and The New York Times, notify these outlets? Judging from the pictures of lynching, kidnapping and storming of an Israeli kibbutz, it seems like the border has been breached not only physically, but also journalistically."

I'm sure journalists should not knowingly go into a situation where they will be filming murders & kidnapping of innocent civilians. But in this situation, I think its legit for them to go in with Hamas just like a US reporter embedded with Marines in Fallujah. They knew there would be fighting but not the war crimes.

The question then is: what is the press' responsibility if they are in a situation where murders & killings start being committed? Should they have stopped filming and walked away, or continue to document and publicly say they were there and saw the war crimes, or try to stop it (suicidal?), or essentially do nothing but sell their pics.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

There's a report about how there were embedded journalists with Hamas as they crossed the border and went on their mayhem. The bottom of the article has the response from CNN, AP and Reuters which implies there is some truth to this.

Journalists with Hamas terrorists: Watchdog questions international media's presence



I'm sure journalists should not knowingly go into a situation where they will be filming murders & kidnapping of innocent civilians. But in this situation, I think its legit for them to go in with Hamas just like a US reporter embedded with Marines in Fallujah. They knew there would be fighting but not the war crimes.

The question then is: what is the press' responsibility if they are in a situation where murders & killings start being committed? Should they have stopped filming and walked away, or continue to document and publicly say they were there and saw the war crimes, or try to stop it (suicidal?), or essentially do nothing but sell their pics.

Journalist have such a tight-rope to walk in these situations. Recording history is important, and you only get the chance to cover something like this if you don't betray whoever is allowing you to follow them. It is a legitimate question of "where is the line?" I think in this case they could probably fairly say by the time it became apparent the level of criminal acts that were occurring they would have put themselves in real danger to try to sound a warning. Not to mention that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Alarms throughout the region were already going off. The Israeli military were caught with their pants down. They were just completely and shockingly unprepared.

[Edward64]

I guess this is one way to get collateral damage.

Honestly, WTF are those civilians standing behind the shooter like that for? Click on the Watch on YT.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I guess this is one way to get collateral damage.

Honestly, WTF are those civilians standing behind the shooter like that for?

The reason you think. So when the IDF fire back they can report the "Israel open fired on innocent protestors."

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The reason you think. So when the IDF fire back they can report the "Israel open fired on innocent protestors."

Is it a human shield war crime when it’s voluntary participation?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I guess this is a crux of our disagreement. One of the key drivers of this mess is Hamas, even pre-Oct 7. It has everything to do with Hamas.

Unfortunately, the not-Hamas Palestinians are being impacted by Hamas. If Hamas stops for real (in a fantasy world), then travel will free up more.

This is called collective punishment. It is a war crime and the justification Bin Laden used. I feel it's wrong, but I understand that's not the prevailing sentiment by people like you.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Jordan borders West Bank? There are Palestinians in West Bank? There is Hamas (and PA) in West Bank?

Hamas has very little presence in the West Bank. Why would any Palestinian need to leave? They have nothing to do with this current conflict.

Originally Posted by Edward64

So when talking about Israel creating a "prison" where Palestinians can't come and go, need to toss in Jordan and Egypt into the equation. And why those countries restrict travel into and through their territory.

Again, why do they have to leave? Why is it acceptable to displace people to create an ethnostate? And why is it the responsibility of another country to take on millions of refugees forced out of their home for that reason? If anything, we should be the one dealing with the refugees since we're the one's footing the bill for the cleansing.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yes, I understand taking hostages for trade. But I'll ask again, why children & grandmas? And why continue to keep them, easy enough to release them to UNRWA. (Well, not anymore but certainly in the past 2-3 weeks).

I'm guessing they just grab whoever they can. The children and grandmas make better stories for the Israelis to tell. And they don't release them because they are using them to trade for Palestinian hostages. I'm guessing Hamas would be more than happy to do a hostage swap.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

No I don't because I was against the bombing campaign to begin with. I just don't believe Jews drink the blood of babies. You seem to believe every piece of propaganda Hamas puts out.

What propoganda? No one is hiding what's happening. Heck, Israel just came out bragging today that they killed 20,000 people in Gaza. You either find that acceptable or you don't.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Journalist have such a tight-rope to walk in these situations. Recording history is important, and you only get the chance to cover something like this if you don't betray whoever is allowing you to follow them. It is a legitimate question of "where is the line?" I think in this case they could probably fairly say by the time it became apparent the level of criminal acts that were occurring they would have put themselves in real danger to try to sound a warning. Not to mention that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Alarms throughout the region were already going off. The Israeli military were caught with their pants down. They were just completely and shockingly unprepared.

That report comes from an Israel backed pressure group. I think every news outlet mentioned has vehemently denied the accusations being made.

This seems like pushback for the criticism they've gotten for executing journalists. There was a CPJ report that showed this being the deadliest month for journalists since they started recording that data.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm guessing they just grab whoever they can. The children and grandmas make better stories for the Israelis to tell.

Hamas took children and grandmas and killed their families so Israelis could teller better stories?

Huh?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Hamas took children and grandmas and killed their families so Israelis could teller better stories?

Huh?

No, I'm saying people are going to be more sympathetic to children and grandmas being taken hostage. Same reason why Palestinians highlight the dead children in the bombings and not the 50-year-old fisherman.

Pretty sure Hamas will take whoever they can get hostage. There was a push for years by them to take military members hostage because they'd get better swaps.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So tell me again, why does Hamas have children & grandma's as hostages?

I guess we may have a more official answer. They offered them up for a 5-day ceasefire. It was rejected.

Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

[GrantDawg]

Biden just announced the 4 hour daily pauses along with two separate corridors set up to help people flee the area. He says they have gotten up to 100+ trucks a day in aid coming in with the hope to have that number at 150 trucks a day soon.
I guess that is something, but so much more is needed.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Hamas has very little presence in the West Bank. Why would any Palestinian need to leave? They have nothing to do with this current conflict.

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison (e.g. the tangent) when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

Again, why do they have to leave? Why is it acceptable to displace people to create an ethnostate? And why is it the responsibility of another country to take on millions of refugees forced out of their home for that reason? If anything, we should be the one dealing with the refugees since we're the one's footing the bill for the cleansing.

I'll just copy-and-paste from above. Maybe it'll get through this third time.

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

I'm guessing they just grab whoever they can. The children and grandmas make better stories for the Israelis to tell. And they don't release them because they are using them to trade for Palestinian hostages. I'm guessing Hamas would be more than happy to do a hostage swap.

And I guess you're okay with that.

Different worlds, different value system.


BTW, I trust we have concluded that Hamas does use human shields now.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison (e.g. the tangent) when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

They are migrating South. Again, why should civilians be forced from their homes and corralled into an even smaller concentration camp? How is this acceptable to any human being?

And what do you mean Arab brothers? Is this some segregation fetish where you have to live among the same skin color? Why support ethnostates? A stretch of Gaza is connected to Egypt. That's the only country that could possibly take them (and it's a lot to ask a poor country to take 2 million refugees). There is no way to access the West Bank (Israel would never allow this anyway), Jordan, or any other "brothers".

And even if there was a path to some magical country you think is connected to Gaza, why should civilians be forced from their homes?

Originally Posted by Edward64

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

It's in fucking Israel. Why would another country not connected to that land have any responsibility for it? It's like imprisoning everyone in the state of Washington behind a wall, putting a naval blockade on them, blowing up their airports, and then blaming France for not taking those people in.

Again, why should they be forced from their homes again? Why the support for apartheid and segregation? Rhodesia is dead man.

[GrantDawg]

The Palestinian Authority has told the Biden administration that it is open to a governance role in post-Hamas Gaza if the United States commits to a full-fledged two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. https://t.co/t1cmj7aJC5

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) November 10, 2023

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They are migrating South. Again, why should civilians be forced from their homes and corralled into an even smaller concentration camp? How is this acceptable to any human being?

Just so we are not conflating stuff, let me clearly restate. I said civilians should go south of the Gaza strip (e.g. still within the strip). To answer your question specifically on "why should they", the answer is because it's safer in the southern part of the strip.

War to civilians is not acceptable but it is a reality, has happened before and will continue to happen, and is a result of sequence of events. I blame Hamas for initiating this on Oct 7 and I blame Israel for seemingly willing to accept higher collateral damage to get to Hamas.

And what do you mean Arab brothers? Is this some segregation fetish where you have to live among the same skin color? Why support ethnostates?

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Er, no? No idea where or why you brought this up. I'll assume its back to your race/racist baiting as that is your modus operandi.

I'm not talking about ethnostates. You brought it up. I'm talking about "countries" as they exist now, the realities on the ground, and having to control borders to prevent Hamas/radicals from killing their people.

A stretch of Gaza is connected to Egypt. That's the only country that could possibly take them (and it's a lot to ask a poor country to take 2 million refugees). There is no way to access the West Bank (Israel would never allow this anyway), Jordan, or any other "brothers".

Yes, Israel imposes a lot of restrictions on Gaza-to-West Bank and vice versa. Egypt imposes a lot of restrictions on Gaza-to-Egypt. Jordan imposes a lot of restrictions on West Bank-to-Jorday. What's the common reason here?

And even if there was a path to some magical country you think is connected to Gaza, why should civilians be forced from their homes?

For the 4th time, I did not say Gazans should be forced from Gaza into "some magical country". It was you that pulled us into that tangent. See below quote, just easier to copy and paste.

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

It's in fucking Israel. Why would another country not connected to that land have any responsibility for it? It's like imprisoning everyone in the state of Washington behind a wall, putting a naval blockade on them, blowing up their airports, and then blaming France for not taking those people in.

I'm not saying Egypt or Jordan have any responsibility to Gaza & West Bank. I'm saying they don't want to have any responsibility for Gaza & West Bank. Hence, they are willing participants in greatly constraining movement into/through their territory. In other words, the prison that you attribute to only Israel should also include Egypt & Jordan.

Again, why should they be forced from their homes again? Why the support for apartheid and segregation? Rhodesia is dead man.

For the 5th time ...

It was you that brought up leaving Gaza strip and being in a prison when I was talking about Gazans leaving Gaza city and going south for safer areas (e.g. but still being in Gaza strip).

When you brought up prison, I brought up the prison is not just because Israel but their Arab brothers also.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The Palestinian Authority has told the Biden administration that it is open to a governance role in post-Hamas Gaza if the United States commits to a full-fledged two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. https://t.co/t1cmj7aJC5

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) November 10, 2023

I believe I read about this offer a week ago?

I know PA has its problems, but I'll take PA > Hamas any day. I'm not convinced that PA can succeed in Gaza as Hamas roots are pretty deep. But better than Israel being the occupying force.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The Palestinian Authority has told the Biden administration that it is open to a governance role in post-Hamas Gaza if the United States commits to a full-fledged two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. https://t.co/t1cmj7aJC5

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) November 10, 2023

They will never allow this to happen. The whole reason Israel has been propping up Hamas is to prevent a 2 state solution from happening.