Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill

[Flasch186]

Where are those goalposts now? As the veil comes off of this BS and you see the agenda can we look back on this legislation and attribute it to what is the grand scheme? The motivation? Yes yes, teachers will be attacked, its coming. In the meantime, while we await that Pelosi like attack, we can see the temperature ramp up when there's no checks to the Fascism. Scary to think but Desantis is Trump 2.0.

[flere-imsaho]

I mean, this alone:

The legislation, known as House Bill 1223, is aimed at establishing a requirement that “personal titles and pronouns” used in schools for kindergarten through 12th grade match the identity assigned at birth.

Gonna be a lot more teenage suicides thanks to this.

[albionmoonlight]

feature, not a bug

[Lathum]

Relax guys. Edward has assured us it will all work out through the court system.

[Edward64]

Google on it and apparently there were 2 lawsuits that were tossed (same judge) in the past year. I don't really know the merits of either but will say I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more lawsuits so far. If I'm wrong, please provide a link, I'd like to read more about those lawsuits.

And so far, nope, no 3rd grade teacher killed/murdered (not just "attacked", we don't want to move the goal posts) for abiding by current FL laws.

Yes, magic date for Flere and me to revisit is Aug 20, 2030. TBF he did not raise it to the level of the Holocaust, it was someone else. I think his worry was like Japanese American internment and not the equivalent of 6M+ Jews imprisoned and murdered, but I'll let him clarify if he wishes.

To be clear, I've stated here before that middle school is a good time to start discussing sexual/gender issues (not so in 3rd grade, defer to parents).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Edward64

To be clear, I've stated here before that middle school is a good time to start discussing sexual/gender issues (not so in 3rd grade, defer to parents).

Of course, if Billy had two mommies or two daddies, the teacher can't say anything about them because that's somehow talking about sex whereas talking about Suzie's mommy and daddy is ok.

SI

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Of course, if Billy had two mommies or two daddies, the teacher can't say anything about them because that's somehow talking about sex whereas talking about Suzie's mommy and daddy is ok.

SI

I'd think it depends on what was said. Re: 3rd graders or younger, the wording in the law is "instruct(ing)". "Can't say anything" is a pretty broad criteria. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere a gay teacher can tell students he/she has a same sex spouse. I also read there is no problem in having pics of same sex spouse on a desk somewhere.

But it is true there is a lot of ambiguity in the law, and hence my assumption there would be a lot of lawsuits to ensure the law treats straight, LGBTQ+ equally. I am truly surprised there hasn't been more lawsuits to challenge stuff. Maybe not an issue as it is being applied equally, or its not that big of a deal for most teachers, or maybe the opposition just isn't as well organized as it should be etc.

[sterlingice]

Or maybe lawsuits are some be-all, end-all panacea because teachers don't have access to lawyers 24x7 to challenge every single thing because this is a profession that's notoriously underpaid, unresourced, and overscrutinized.

EDIT: So perhaps it's more important to have good, well-intentioned laws on the books rather than expecting the courts to sort things out when they are (increasingly?) subject to the same political pressures, as well.

SI

[larrymcg421]

A law that is so ambiguously worded so that people need to sue to make sure it doesn't negatively effect them is a bad law.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Or maybe lawsuits are some be-all, end-all panacea because teachers don't have access to lawyers 24x7 to challenge every single thing because this is a profession that's notoriously underpaid, unresourced, and overscrutinized.

SI

I wasn't thinking about individual teachers going at it themselves. If I was a teacher and thought my rights were violated and/or the law wasn't applied equally, I'd document and start to reach out to ...

Teachers union, ACLU, LGBTQ+ organizations, I'd think some attorneys wanting to make a name for themselves etc.

But to be fair, there may be some stuff in the works now but just not filed or public. So maybe in Year 2 or 3 we'll see more activity.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

A law that is so ambiguously worded so that people need to sue to make sure it doesn't negatively effect them is a bad law.

Amen.

[Lathum]

Five years ago Florida had 1500 teaching vacancies. Today it’s 5300. But I’m sure that’s a coincidence.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I wasn't thinking about individual teachers going at it themselves. If I was a teacher and thought my rights were violated and/or the law wasn't applied equally, I'd document and start to reach out to ...

Teachers union, ACLU, LGBTQ+ organizations, I'd think some attorneys wanting to make a name for themselves etc.

But to be fair, there may be some stuff in the works now but just not filed or public. So maybe in Year 2 or 3 we'll see more activity.

Because they have so much extra time to pursue this between their job, family, buying supplies with their own money, possibly a second job, grading papers in their free time, and sleeping.

[miami_fan]

I find myself wondering which category the article describe do my fellow Floridians specifically and U.S. citizens in general fit.

But it is true there is a lot of ambiguity in the law, and hence my assumption there would be a lot of lawsuits to ensure the law treats straight, LGBTQ+ equally. I am truly surprised there hasn't been more lawsuits to challenge stuff. Maybe not an issue as it is being applied equally, or its not that big of a deal for most teachers, or maybe the opposition just isn't as well organized as it should be etc.

According to the article, here is what happened in Nazi Germany.

Pressures to defer to authority and obey laws and decrees were present even without the added intimidation by Nazi activists. Many people wanted to protect their jobs or advance their careers. Others did not want to “swim against the tide” by failing to conform to Nazi racist norms. Most cut off relations with Jewish friends and neighbors, in public if not in private.

The factor of fear and intimidation should not be overstated, however, for it implies that people wanted to help the persecuted. For many Germans, their livelihoods and the well-being of their families were simply a much higher priority than a group who represented a tiny fraction of the population and who was constantly demonized as a “dangerous threat.” As Germany’s economy and global standing improved during the 1930s, the majority of Germans—including many who never voted for Hitler and who did not identify as Nazi—supported the positive changes and overlooked the threats to Jews and other Nazi targets.

And here is my explanation for why there are not more lawsuits. I think the edits are clear.

Pressures to defer to authority and obey laws and decrees were present even without the added intimidation by anti LGBT activists. Many people wanted to protect their jobs or advance their careers. Others did not want to “swim against the tide” by failing to conform to anti LGBT norms. Most cut off relations with LGBT friends and neighbors, in public if not in private.

The factor of fear and intimidation should not be overstated, however, for it implies that people wanted to help the persecuted. For many Floridians, their livelihoods and the well-being of their families were simply a much higher priority than a group who represented a tiny fraction of the population and who was constantly demonized as a “dangerous threat.” As Florida’s economy and global standing improved during the 2020s, the majority of Floridians—including many who never voted for DeSantis and who did not identify as anti LGBT—supported the positive changes and overlooked the threats to LGBT and other progressive targets.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Five years ago Florida had 1500 teaching vacancies. Today it’s 5300. But I’m sure that’s a coincidence.

Re: the misnamed Don’t Say Gay bill causing the shortage?

Must be a coincidence since the law didn’t come out until 2022. There are a lot of reasons why there is a teacher shortage, this law may play a smaller role for 2022-2023+ but there was alot of other issues already.

[Lathum]

Well done.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Re: the misnamed Don’t Say Gay bill causing the shortage?

Must be a coincidence since the law didn’t come out until 2022. There are a lot of reasons why there is a teacher shortage, this law may play a smaller role for 2022-2023+ but there was alot of other issues already.

It’s part of a bigger plan to destroy the education system in the state so DeSantis can completely run it. Uneducated voters are good for him. Look at some of the other recent bills they have also passed, book bans, etc. all designed to destroy any semblance of public education.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It’s part of a bigger plan to destroy the education system in the state so DeSantis can completely run it. Uneducated voters are good for him. Look at some of the other recent bills they have also passed, book bans, etc. all designed to destroy any semblance of public education.

I wouldn't word it that way but I actually agree with your sentiments in this paragraph. DeSantis is definitely playing politics here. And on the bits I've read on the recent stuff he wants, it goes too far for me.

But getting back to your original statement on blaming the Don't Say Gay law for the teacher shortage, yeah I'd say that's a coincidence.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I find myself wondering which category the article describe do my fellow Floridians specifically and U.S. citizens in general fit.

According to the article, here is what happened in Nazi Germany.

And here is my explanation for why there are not more lawsuits. I think the edits are clear.

I do agree there are elements of truth in what you've quoted and may be why there isn't more law suits.

However, I suspect on a scale of 1-10 and the analogy to Nazi Germany, you are thinking its 8+ whereas I'm thinking its 2-. We are a lawsuit happy country and we are IMO nowhere close to Nazi Germany in shutting down, threatening etc. dissent.

I think it's more likely there are things in the works but not yet filed, or there's not been that level of systemic unequal treatment that LGBTQ+ teachers are significantly worried about or believe they can win.

[Flasch186]

So now we're able to assume what people are thinking and what might be happening but at the beginning of the thread we weren't allowed to do that, no? I'm sure no.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

So now we're able to assume what people are thinking and what might be happening but at the beginning of the thread we weren't allowed to do that, no? I'm sure no.

I'm sure there's reading comprehension issues. Please quote me and clearly state where you believe I have contradicted myself.

If not, I'll just add it to the list of unanswered questions.

Oh, are you moving the goal posts now to re: 3rd grade teachers being "attacked" vs "killed/murdered"? It is fair play to ask me to quote you on the discrepancy, so see below your quotes.

I’ve already described how people will die

When a teacher goes to court and is attacked by a loon

vs

Yes yes, teachers will be attacked, its coming

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

However, I suspect on a scale of 1-10 and the analogy to Nazi Germany, you are thinking its 8+ whereas I'm thinking its 2-. We are a lawsuit happy country and we are IMO nowhere close to Nazi Germany in shutting down, threatening etc. dissent.

I think it's more likely there are things in the works but not yet filed, or there's not been that level of systemic unequal treatment that LGBTQ+ teachers are significantly worried about or believe they can win.

I'd love to live in a world where a coordinated series of legislative policies as outlined here was merely a bunch of coincidences rather than a concerted effort to stigmatize certain people, make it easier to attack those people by legal and other methods, and create an environment so unwelcome as to drive them away.

Also:

we are IMO nowhere close to Nazi Germany in shutting down, threatening etc. dissent.

vs.

A Republican state senator in Florida has introduced a bill that, if passed, would require bloggers who write about Gov. Ron DeSantis, his Cabinet or state legislators to register with the state.

[cuervo72]

Even Newt Gingrich thought that last one went too far.

[flere-imsaho]

I went back to page 2 of the thread and realized that you never answered this, Edward:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Then honestly, I'm just confused as to what you're arguing.

If you concede that the politicians were targeting LGBTQ ("thinking about" & "primarily against") and you concede that it is not neutral in how it will be applied, then why the reticence to agree that these actions by DeSantis, Noem, et. al. constitute an assault on public schooling, individual liberties, etc...?

Is the idea simply too shrill for you?

The "concede" references are also from the page, laid out in posts (by me) previous to the one I'm quoting.


Also, the August, 2030 "mea culpa" you're referencing was my claim that if this continues unchecked like this, I anticipate the GOP authorities to be coming to try and take away my Jewish wife & sons. Having said that, it is because of this activity that we started, last year, a process to become citizens of another country as a back-up plan should this situation come to pass.

[Flasch186]

Flere, I commend you, but I don't have the energy to give the E (energy) vampire anymore.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'd love to live in a world where a coordinated series of legislative policies as outlined here was merely a bunch of coincidences rather than a concerted effort to stigmatize certain people, make it easier to attack those people by legal and other methods, and create an environment so unwelcome as to drive them away.

We are talking about similarities to Nazi Germany and the concern that the US will become like Nazi Germany based on the article you linked (let me know if I got it wrong).

Below is how Nazi started persecuting the Jews. So yeah, on a scale of 1-10, you believe its 8+ and I believe it's 2-.

I will concede if Trump won a 2nd term, my no. will have gone up. But yes, our republic and democracy, is no where close to Nazi Germany.

Rise of the Nazis and Beginning of Persecution

Nazi anti-Jewish policy functioned on two primary levels: legal measures to expel the Jews from society and strip them of their rights and property while simultaneously engaging in campaigns of incitement, abuse, terror and violence of varying proportions. There was one goal: to make the Jews leave Germany.

On March 9, 1933, several weeks after Hitler assumed power, organized attacks on Jews broke out across Germany. Two weeks later, the Dachau concentration camp, situated near Munich, opened. Dachau became a place of internment for Communists, Socialists, German liberals and anyone considered an enemy of the Reich. It became the model for the network of concentration camps that would be established later by the Nazis. Within a few months, democracy was obliterated in Germany, and the country became a centralized, single-party police state.

On April 1, 1933, a general boycott against German Jews was declared, in which SA members stood outside Jewish-owned stores and businesses in order to prevent customers from entering.

Approximately one week later, a law concerning the rehabilitation of the professional civil service was passed. The purpose of the legislation was to purge the civil service of officials of Jewish origin and those deemed disloyal to the regime. It was the first racial law that attempted to isolate Jews and oust them from German life. The first laws banished Jews from the civil service, judicial system, public medicine, and the German army (then being reorganized). Ceremonial public book burnings took place throughout Germany. Many books were torched solely because their authors were Jews. The exclusion of Jews from German cultural life was highly visible, ousting their considerable contribution to the German press, literature, theater, and music.

In September 1935 the “Nuremberg Laws” were passed, stripping the Jews of their citizenship and forbidding intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews. Jews were banned from universities; Jewish actors were dismissed from theaters; Jewish authors’ works were rejected by publishers; and Jewish journalists were hard-pressed to find newspapers that would publish their writings. Famous artists and scientists played an important role in this campaign of dispossession and party labeling of literature, art, and science. Some scientists and physicians were involved in the theoretical underpinnings of the racial doctrine.

If your point is some groups of people are being stigmatized, I will not disagree with you.

If your argument is some groups of people are stigmatized to the level of Jews in Nazi Germany, I'd stay we are no where close. And certainly not by Aug 2030.

[flere-imsaho]

There's no direct analog due to the differences in governmental structures, but clearly we're somewhere between 1929 and 1933 Germany.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I went back to page 2 of the thread and realized that you never answered this, Edward:

The "concede" references are also from the page, laid out in posts (by me) previous to the one I'm quoting.

I didn't?

See Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill where I quoted your text and answered?

Let me know what you think I did not answer?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

There's no direct analog due to the differences in governmental structures, but clearly we're somewhere between 1929 and 1933 Germany.

So in 1933 the article said this happened.

On March 9, 1933, several weeks after Hitler assumed power, organized attacks on Jews broke out across Germany. Two weeks later, the Dachau concentration camp, situated near Munich, opened. Dachau became a place of internment for Communists, Socialists, German liberals and anyone considered an enemy of the Reich. It became the model for the network of concentration camps that would be established later by the Nazis. Within a few months, democracy was obliterated in Germany, and the country became a centralized, single-party police state.

On April 1, 1933, a general boycott against German Jews was declared, in which SA members stood outside Jewish-owned stores and businesses in order to prevent customers from entering.

So using your dates of 1929 to 1933 and the 4 year span, we should see something like this happen by 2027 at the latest.

I honestly don't see it but understand you do. And hence your 8+ and my 2-. I'll pencil in coming back here Mar 2027 to see where we are (just like the Aug 2030 mea culpa appointment).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Also, the August, 2030 "mea culpa" you're referencing was my claim that if this continues unchecked like this, I anticipate the GOP authorities to be coming to try and take away my Jewish wife & sons. Having said that, it is because of this activity that we started, last year, a process to become citizens of another country as a back-up plan should this situation come to pass.

Fair enough. We'll see where we are in Aug 2030.

Serious question. What is your backup country?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Flere, I commend you, but I don't have the energy to give the E (energy) vampire anymore.

And yet, you always find a way once every two weeks or so.

But no problem. Added to list. Drama queen does what a drama queen does.

Just in case our discussion comes up again, and for ease of reference, I'll post the outstanding questions I'm waiting from you on.

1) Do you believe that "instruct" = "mention". An example is a gay teacher introduces his gay spouse as his husband and you believe can get reprimanded/fired. I'm pretty sure from your posts above the answer is yes, but want to establish a clear baseline now. - Ans: Yes

2) The bill deals with 3rd graders and below. Why do you believe teachers are better than parents in discussing "sexual orientation or gender identity" topics with their 3rd grader?

3) I can extrapolate what you mean by gaslighting. But still waiting on goal post moving

4) Can you provide a similar example in recent times (let's since 2000's) of a gay 3rd grade teacher who was murdered because of teaching/instructing a child? Ans - unsure, below is prob hedging bets and moving the goal posts from the orig statement
Quote:
We’re only a short time away from an attack on a teacher… maybe not a third grade one though so there’s that
5) Please provide your quote where you have previously told me this? I honestly don't see it in prior posts re: "I’ve already described how people will die"

6) What does E have to do a mea culpa on re: https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/13/polit...nda/index.html - Ans: Not expecting E to do a mea culpa right now

7) I never said we "cannot presume (assume) anything". Please make me eat my words and specifically quote me where I said this.

New!

8) Question: So now we're able to assume what people are thinking and what might be happening but at the beginning of the thread we weren't allowed to do that, no? I'm sure no.

Reply: I'm sure there's reading comprehension issues. Please quote me and clearly state where you believe I have contradicted myself.

[Flasch186]

I don't want to get suspended again for what you do repeatedly but for some reason never get held to account on. For example, had I called you a name like you did I'd get a month in the box for some reason...you don't. Perhaps you've been here longer than me and have more credit. You certainly have more energy to fight and pretzel than I do. Good for you. I like to spend my energy (that I control, you don't) elsewhere. I post what's important and get my point across. As I mentioned elsewhere you post to hear your self talk.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I don't want to get suspended again for what you do repeatedly but for some reason never get held to account on. For example, had I called you a name like you did I'd get a month in the box for some reason...you don't. Perhaps you've been here longer than me and have more credit. You certainly have more energy to fight and pretzel than I do. Good for you. I like to spend my energy (that I control, you don't) elsewhere. I post what's important and get my point across. As I mentioned elsewhere you post to hear your self talk.

Just stop engaging me with your periodic witty, passive aggressive, sarcasm.

I'll be glad to stop engaging with you.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I didn't?

See Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill where I quoted your text and answered?

Let me know what you think I did not answer?

Not clearly.

Re-reading the post you linked, is it fair to characterize your position as:

1. Yes, DeSantis and related politicians are targeting LGBTQ people.

2. The law, as written, is neutral.

3. The juxtaposition of legislative events and public pronouncements does not constitute an imminent threat to LGBTQ people.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So in 1933 the article said this happened.

So using your dates of 1929 to 1933 and the 4 year span, we should see something like this happen by 2027 at the latest.

I said there was no direct analog. That also applies to dates.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Not clearly.

Re-reading the post you linked, is it fair to characterize your position as:

1. Yes, DeSantis and related politicians are targeting LGBTQ people.

2. The law, as written, is neutral.

3. The juxtaposition of legislative events and public pronouncements does not constitute an imminent threat to LGBTQ people.

Let me break it down.

Here's your original statement, question.

If you concede that the politicians were targeting LGBTQ ("thinking about" & "primarily against") and you concede that it is not neutral in how it will be applied, then why the reticence to agree that these actions by DeSantis, Noem, et. al. constitute an assault on public schooling, individual liberties, etc...?

Is the idea simply too shrill for you?

Here's the breakdown of your paragraph and my answers that I copied and pasted. I didn't understand your interpretation on #3 above? It doesn't seem to be what I wrote below?

If you concede that the politicians were targeting LGBTQ ("thinking about" & "primarily against")

Yes, I concede the politicians (esp DeSantis) were targeting LGBTQ when they started the bill.

you concede that it is not neutral in how it will be applied

Yes, do agree more than likely it will not be consistently applied and there will be inevitable lawsuits. The reason why it won't be consistently applied is because the law does not get into details and there are things subject to interpretation. The inevitable lawsuits will correct what needs to be corrected, albeit likely painfully slow.

then why the reticence to agree that these actions by DeSantis, Noem, et. al. constitute an assault on public schooling, individual liberties, etc...?

Therefore, the reason why I do not believe it's an assault of public schooling, individual liberties is

4) I am discussing the law as passed, not individual motives

5) I don't see these "restrictions" put on teachers as unreasonable (I have many restrictions on what I can say to clients, co-workers). Teach what is in the approved curriculum. If its in the grey area, or you think it may be controversial, avoid the discussion and punt to parent/admin

6) Just for context, I view having teachers come to school, all dressed up in masks, face shield and some sort of protective cover to teach school BEFORE vaccinations as an "assault". That was risking one's life. A teacher being told not to discuss some topics not in the curriculum, nah.

So yeah, if/when something like below happens, let's come back and discuss "assault".

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I said there was no direct analog. That also applies to dates.

Okay.

Then you can continue to claim this is similar to the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany. And I will continue to claim it won't get close to similar.

And we won't have a standard to measure how things have progress or not or declined by Mar 2027. So forget our date on Mar 2027. But our Aug 2030 date still stands.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do agree there are elements of truth in what you've quoted and may be why there isn't more law suits.

However, I suspect on a scale of 1-10 and the analogy to Nazi Germany, you are thinking its 8+ whereas I'm thinking its 2-. We are a lawsuit happy country and we are IMO nowhere close to Nazi Germany in shutting down, threatening etc. dissent.

I think it's more likely there are things in the works but not yet filed, or there's not been that level of systemic unequal treatment that LGBTQ+ teachers are significantly worried about or believe they can win.

No, I don't think it's a 8+. I honestly have no idea of the number. It is terrifying that you think it is 2- and it's like oh well.

Are we nowhere close to Nazi Germany in the treatment of the LGBT community? Well let's go back to the article I posted and see if we see any similarities.

For instance, members of sports clubs, book groups, and other voluntary associations expelled Jews.

check

Teenagers within schools and universities enjoyed their newfound freedom to harass Jewish classmates or even adults.

check

Large numbers went along passively with the exclusion of Jews from their workplaces and with their isolation within schools and communities. Others cheered as onlookers to events such as public parades to shame those accused of “racial defilement.”

check and check

Unsurprisingly, no one questions why the Jews in Germany during this time did not file a lawsuit to get these policies reversed. I am not sure why you would expect a ton of lawsuits from a community under similar attack now.

Originally Posted by Edward64

If your point is some groups of people are being stigmatized, I will not disagree with you.

If your argument is some groups of people are stigmatized to the level of Jews in Nazi Germany, I'd stay we are no where close. And certainly not by Aug 2030.

I think you are falling victim to the same thing the Germans did back then and what we all talking about the American public today. I am sure (because I have gotten a chance to have many conversations with Germans alive during that time) did not think it was that bad for the Jews.

[quote]the majority of Germans—including many who never voted for Hitler and who did not identify as Nazi—supported the positive changes and overlooked the threats to Jews and other Nazi targets.[/QUOTE

Originally Posted by Edward64

So in 1933 the article said this happened.



So using your dates of 1929 to 1933 and the 4 year span, we should see something like this happen by 2027 at the latest.

I honestly don't see it but understand you do. And hence your 8+ and my 2-. I'll pencil in coming back here Mar 2027 to see where we are (just like the Aug 2030 mea culpa appointment).

I must admit. The need for a concentration camp to open up before we take the threat seriously is a bit jarring to say the least. If we are talking about timelines, I would like to introduce the one for the attacks on the LGBT community. I know I pushed ahead to the Jews but the language was so similar to language that was used for the Jews, it was a natural leap. Also, well I will save that for later. If we have this point in the attacks on the LGBT community (spoiler alert:we have) we should probably be concerned about what the next step is since we know what the next step was in Nazi Germany after the attacks on the LGBT community. Let me introduce you to Magnus Hirshcfield.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...s-hirschfeld-2

Institut für Sexualwissenschaft - Wikipedia

I posted the related Wiki article as well. It provides a bit more info about the institute itself, the work it was doing (not new stuff) and the Nazi reaction to it. The attacks started in the early 1920s. When I say that things are going in a similar direction as it did in Nazi Germany, this is what I mean. We are here. Before the Jews were declared un-German, the LGBT community was declared un-German and the majority of the German population let it slide. The American public seems to be okay with letting the attacks on the LGBT community slide. How far are we going to allow those attacks to go? Who is next and are we going to let those attacks slide as well?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Then you can continue to claim this is similar to the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany. And I will continue to claim it won't get close to similar.

OK. FWIW, I'm with miami_fan:

Originally Posted by miami_fan

It is terrifying that you think it is 2- and it's like oh well.

It's curious, however, Edward, that in another thread you characterize something that may or may not happen by 2035 as "imminent" and a "crisis" while these policies being enacted now in Florida and having impacts on a wide variety of populations, also now is, apparently, not either imminent nor a crisis.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

No, I don't think it's a 8+. I honestly have no idea of the number. It is terrifying that you think it is 2- and it's like oh well.

Are we nowhere close to Nazi Germany in the treatment of the LGBT community? Well let's go back to the article I posted and see if we see any similarities.

There's always a certain level of "bad stuff" ever present. So my 2- is an acknowledgement of that. You may not think it's 8+ but you certainly think it's worse than I do.

If you look at the article I posted, which I think is more scholarly, I'd say there are many more of those not checked than checked.

Unsurprisingly, no one questions why the Jews in Germany during this time did not file a lawsuit to get these policies reversed. I am not sure why you would expect a ton of lawsuits from a community under similar attack now.

And that's the point, the LGBTQ+ community is not under near similar attack (per my article). What's to stop ACLU, LGBTQ+ groups in California, New York etc. helping out? We are lawsuit happy in the US.

IMO the Occam's Razor are lawsuits are in the works but not yet filed/publicized, or they've not found the valid grounds to contest (e.g. unequal treatment, unconstitutional or whatever). This is much more reasonable IMO than the ACLU, activist LGBTQ+ etc. groups fearing reprisals.

I think you are falling victim to the same thing the Germans did back then and what we all talking about the American public today. I am sure (because I have gotten a chance to have many conversations with Germans alive during that time) did not think it was that bad for the Jews.

This may be true. I have not spoken to any Germans on any similarities and don't have that perspective. I only have what I've read (see my article above).

I must admit. The need for a concentration camp to open up before we take the threat seriously is a bit jarring to say the least.

My article has about 15+ things that happened. Most/all of them have not happened in near scale or degree in the US. So no, its more than just a concentration camp.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

It's curious, however, Edward, that in another thread you characterize something that may or may not happen by 2035 as "imminent" and a "crisis" while

The crisis is the bi-partisanship negotiations that will eventually happen, agree on, and the pain(s) some groups will have to feel. There is no solution(s) that have been proposed that will not have significant political fallout. And with political fallout, there is the natural tendency to kick the can down the road and special interests participating.

This will happen, there is not may or may not happen. And it won't be easy, hence "imminent" (going to happen soon) and "crisis" (lots of pain involved)

these policies being enacted now in Florida and having impacts on a wide variety of populations, also now is, apparently, not either imminent nor a crisis.

If you are referring to the recent stuff that DeSantis has proposed, I have not read enough (vs. Don't Say Gay bill) to form a firm opinion. I will say that in the bits & pieces I've read, especially on what can be taught in State Universities, I disagree with. Universities is where it should be wide open learning, for and against, view from "both sides".

If you are referring to the Don't Say Gay bill re: instruction to 3rd graders, don't see that as a crisis at all. I'll copy and paste

Therefore, the reason why I do not believe it's an assault of public schooling, individual liberties is

4) I am discussing the law as passed (which is neutral wording, applies to straight and LGBTQ+), not individual motives

5) I don't see these "restrictions" put on teachers as unreasonable (I have many restrictions on what I can say to clients, co-workers). Teach what is in the approved curriculum. If its in the grey area, or you think it may be controversial, avoid the discussion and punt to parent/admin

Question to you:

Why do you not believe upcoming SS gap (circa 2034'ish) is not an imminent crisis? Is it because you believe there are easy solutions and will be solved before then?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Teachers union, ACLU, LGBTQ+ organizations, I'd think some attorneys wanting to make a name for themselves etc.

There were lawsuits. One was tossed by a Trump appointed federal judge. Another was tossed by you guessed it, a Trump appointed judge.

The courts aren't going to help. They stacked it with ideologues for a reason. They want to do unconstitutional stuff and that's what the last 50 years of taking over the courts allows them to do.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It’s part of a bigger plan to destroy the education system in the state so DeSantis can completely run it. Uneducated voters are good for him. Look at some of the other recent bills they have also passed, book bans, etc. all designed to destroy any semblance of public education.

Florida's public education was already in the shitter and near the bottom of the United States. It's a race to be the next Alabama.

[Flasch186]

@rainmaker then the idea that E espoused that the courts would settle it all is ringing true. The court is. It’s just also aligning with the other arguments going on that this is a systemic dismantling of democracy in Florida (and elsewhere) at a state legislative level. (Just in the last page of this thread both sides of the coin get played) Perhaps we’ll see true colors coming out in this thread because you know, the legislation is not reflective of anything other than the legislation itself and you cannot possibly call David Duke running for election a KKK member cuz look, he’s not wearing white.

Honestly it’s just ridiculous and a complete energy suck that I have to avoid chasing, like catching smoke.

Fofc is worse for it and way less enjoyable to see the disingenuity, pretzeling and speaking into a mirror but I’m glad others far more energized can hold feet to fire. I cannot.


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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Honestly it’s just ridiculous and a complete energy suck that I have to avoid chasing, like catching smoke.

... glad others far more energized can hold feet to fire. I cannot.

You do try though (and sometimes with emojis!).

Remember, the solution to your problem is easy. Just stop engaging me, stop referring to anything I've said. I promise I won't be first to engage you otherwise. Just block me.

I'll start documenting your drama going forward. I'll call this #1 and see how far we get.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Why do you not believe upcoming SS gap (circa 2034'ish) is not an imminent crisis? Is it because you believe there are easy solutions and will be solved before then?

I answered that, comprehensively, in the other thread.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I answered that, comprehensively, in the other thread.

Okay. Can you link to it just like I linked my answer to the question you thought I did not answer?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Florida's public education was already in the shitter and near the bottom of the United States. It's a race to be the next Alabama.

But it has larger coffers so there's a lot to privatize and loot in exchange for political favors first. Alabama never really had that going for it.

SI

[RainMaker]

My suggestion is that weirdo fascists should stop their obsession with children's genitalia. Just a simple ask.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

There's always a certain level of "bad stuff" ever present. So my 2- is an acknowledgement of that. You may not think it's 8+ but you certainly think it's worse than I do.

Using terminology like "bad stuff" as a substitute for anti-semitic and/or anti- LGBT measures is a cop out IMO and is an example of exactly the thought process that "led many people to view the Jews as “alien.” and view the LGBT community in a similar manner today. But that is from my article.

Under the Antisemitism section on the site you posted, I found this. Again, substitute the references of the Jews with those of the LGBT community.

Not until the 1930s, however, with the ascendancy of National Socialism and Adolf Hitler’s accession to power in Germany, did racial antisemitism become a political instrument in the hands of the masses and, later on, the official policy of a modern state. From then on the essence of Jewishness was believed to be biological. In the past a Jew could theoretically avoid persecution by assimilating, renouncing the customs of his tradition, or adopting a non-Jewish faith. However, the racial element eliminated these possibilities. The new racial outlook defined the German people as the finest and purest branch of the Aryan-Nordic race (along with the Nordic-Scandinavian peoples) and labeled Jews as a subhuman race that strove to challenge the “correct” world order and deprive the “supreme race” of its position of dominance and leadership. Unless the “Aryan” race won the struggle and established its dominion, Jews would bring about the extermination of the human race.

The previous paragraphs on that page provided the background of how the society got to that point. The point I am making is the LGBT community is being portrayed in the same manner as the Jewish community was portrayed back then. That deserves more than just an acknowledgement.

And that's the point, the LGBTQ+ community is not under near similar attack (per my article). What's to stop ACLU, LGBTQ+ groups in California, New York etc. helping out? We are lawsuit happy in the US.

From your article

Nazi anti-Jewish policy functioned on two primary levels: legal measures to expel the Jews from society and strip them of their rights and property while simultaneously engaging in campaigns of incitement, abuse, terror and violence of varying proportions. There was one goal: to make the Jews leave Germany.

On March 9, 1933, several weeks after Hitler assumed power, organized attacks on Jews broke out across Germany.

No one interested in an honest discussion would dispute that the LGBT community has been subject to legal measures to expel them from society and strip them of their rights and property what simultaneously facing campaigns of incitement, abuse, terror and violence of varying proportions. Organized attacks against LGBT communities have occurred all over the the country. Again I note, no one demanded that the Jews file lawsuit because everyone knew that Hitler had assumed power and appointed his followers in the courts. What was there to stop the Jews from filing lawsuits back then?

Now you are absolutely correct. There has not been a call for a national boycott of LGBT businesses like there was on April 1, 1933 on Jewish businesses. But if you click on the link about the boycott in that article, you will find this nugget.

Some scholars believe that the Nazis issued the boycott as a way to
appease party members who demanded extreme economic steps against the
Jews as they had been promised in the party's platform. Others view the
boycott as the cue to begin harassing the Jews—a legal precedent for racial
discrimination that could only lead downhill.

Hmm, maybe there are other ways to appease party members who demanded extreme economic steps against the LGBT community as promised in a major party's platform. Maybe there are other ways that can act as a a cue to harass LGBT community members- a legal precedent for discrimination that could only go downhill.

Approximately one week later, a law concerning the rehabilitation of the professional civil service was passed. The purpose of the legislation was to purge the civil service of officials of Jewish origin and those deemed disloyal to the regime. It was the first racial law that attempted to isolate Jews and oust them from German life. The first laws banished Jews from the civil service, judicial system, public medicine, and the German army (then being reorganized). Ceremonial public book burnings took place throughout Germany. Many books were torched solely because their authors were Jews. The exclusion of Jews from German cultural life was highly visible, ousting their considerable contribution to the German press, literature, theater, and music.

Again you are absolutely correct. There has not been specific legislation to purge the civil service of LGBT folks. There has been specific legislation to purge them from other areas though. There have been book burnings or book removals from public spaces. There has been highly visible efforts to exclude LGBT folks ousting their considerable contribution to the American press, literature, theater, music and other areas of society as well. I did not intend to go all the way to 1935 and the Nuremberg Laws because I did not think that was relevant but I mean...

The Nuremberg Laws not only provided a "legitimate" legal mechanism for excluding the Jews from mainstream German culture, but also supplied the
Nazi Party with a rationalization for the antisemitic riots and arrests they had
carried out over the previous months.

To be clear, I still don't think the treatment of the LGBT community today in our country has reached the levels of the worst of the Nazi's treatment of the Jews in the 30's and 40's. I am also not a person who has had to deal with those legal measures meant to expel the members of that community from society and strip them of their rights and property while simultaneously engaging in campaigns of incitement, abuse, terror and violence of varying proportions. It does not need to be that way and the insistence of some to want to follow the Nazi example in relation to this community is terrifying.