WW Dukes Versus Hunters (GAME OVER!!--See Post #1387)

[cheekimonk]

Originally Posted by JAG

That makes no sense to me. It feels good even though you misunderstood?

Ok. It doesn't feel any worse than anyone I have a gut feel on. Some folks I have nothing one way or the other. Some folks I feel are on the radar though they haven't tipped village or wolf yet. It's a long D1.

[Grover]

unvote
vote fontisian

The surety of Vaimes being town is one reason I have for this vote.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Zinto

I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either. There is a better chance it is just a villager duke than a wolf duke.

But ... but ... we're presumably voting for someone because we think there's more chance than average that that person is a wolf. Them duking that vote away doesn't suddenly make those doubts go away. So, no, they shouldn't get MORE suspicion (unless they vote to a random) but as the suspicion they were getting was enough to get them lynched then it only seems right that they should be killed, barring a radical change in data (for example information from the seer). In a normal game the value of the duke is almost exclusively in creating a cleared villager. In this game it doesn't have that value.

So if you feel that accelerated lynching is the way forward and you're a duke then duke it to the next vote-getter. If you don't think that, don't use your duke at all. My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.

[Narcizo]

Agree with Jag on the pinginess of what Cheeki said and did. I suspect it might be a confused villager rather than a wolf play but that's always difficult to judge.

[timmae]

Just checking in before leaving for meetings today. I haven't seen a reason to switch up my vote as of yet. Jackal seems "off" but I am not reading evil. Lacking further evidence elsewhere I will keep my vote on him. I like that bug is around and hope to see more of his thoughts. I am reading good font this game. Not quite as abrasive but her tone is similar to what I have seen from good font. She seemed more helpful as neutral/evil in the rebirth game.

[Zinto]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

But ... but ... we're presumably voting for someone because we think there's more chance than average that that person is a wolf. Them duking that vote away doesn't suddenly make those doubts go away. So, no, they shouldn't get MORE suspicion (unless they vote to a random) but as the suspicion they were getting was enough to get them lynched then it only seems right that they should be killed, barring a radical change in data (for example information from the seer). In a normal game the value of the duke is almost exclusively in creating a cleared villager. In this game it doesn't have that value.

So if you feel that accelerated lynching is the way forward and you're a duke then duke it to the next vote-getter. If you don't think that, don't use your duke at all. My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.

It sounded like we were getting to the point where it would be a foregone conclusion we would lynch the person who duked the day before. I am not sure if that is always going to be the right play.(I know that we won't always do that but it just doesn't seem smart.)

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by timmae

Just checking in before leaving for meetings today. I haven't seen a reason to switch up my vote as of yet. Jackal seems "off" but I am not reading evil. Lacking further evidence elsewhere I will keep my vote on him. I like that bug is around and hope to see more of his thoughts. I am reading good font this game. Not quite as abrasive but her tone is similar to what I have seen from good font. She seemed more helpful as neutral/evil in the rebirth game.

I couldn't disagree with you more. While I dont trust my own instincts in this game yet, font does not sound like usual font to me. Confident, aggressive villager font would not (in my mind) suggest everyone reveal their duke/hunter affiliations. I realize she was asking a question about it, but putting the idea out there feels like an evil play.

I'm not ready to back up my statement with a vote, I could very well be 180 degrees off target here.

[cheekimonk]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.

FWIW, I'm village and I wouldn't duke out of a lynch. Not going to duke someone out of a lynch, either. Just not enough info for more than hunches on D1 and I'm still too green to trust those too much.

[Zinto]

Originally Posted by cheekimonk

FWIW, I'm village and I wouldn't duke out of a lynch. Not going to duke someone out of a lynch, either. Just not enough info for more than hunches on D1 and I'm still too green to trust those too much.

Okay you hunter

[fontisian]

I've actually got town reads on Vaimes, Jackal, Cheeki and Narc, do let's not lynch in that group.

There's a good chance JAG is scum, but I'm going to give him a break for toDay and see if he turns out useful.

Vote Grover
Hi. Your vote is weak. This is your chance to justify it better.

[fontisian]

Oh, timmae's also on the possible scum I'm watching but would feel bad (but not that bad) about lynching for his tryhardiness.

[The Jackal]

Anyone have a vote count?

[The Jackal]

My initial thoughts after reading the roles were to try and set guidelines that we could get a general consensus on in the thread without revealing factions, primarily in terms of when hunters should use their kills .. but I think it's going to be too much of a clusterf*ck to try and organize that.

[The Jackal]

I can see merit in what Narcizo was proposing about a hunter using their kill on a duke that dukes to a village hunter, but I also have a nagging suspicion that it will be much easier for wolves to avoid poor votes (or what would look poor in retrospect a few days later) with 1-2 dukes in their pocket.

[The Jackal]

And there's always the rogue factor. Plenty of hunters and dukes have made questionable plays in other games when there was a game-wide one-time use..

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

the clever thing about the rules is that for every duke that's killed the hunters' power becomes less potent (as there's more chance of a hunter hitting another hunter with a day-kill), while the duke's power becomes more useful.

The same would be true for hunters if we prioritized killing them, too.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Is there any merit to having everyone claim Hunter or Duke?

It'd basically ruin the minor VC that's in play.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by britrock88

It'd basically ruin the minor VC that's in play.

And, assuming full disclosure, would rule out a wolf duke/hunter killing themselves by hitting their own faction. I'd rather have that be a possibility to f with their decision making.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's a higher risk strategy than playing it safe because it accelerates our timeline required to win though. We'll get more information per lynch, but have fewer total showdowns.

Quick thought to add to this: is there any suspicion that the wolves might have amped-up or tamped-down versions of duke/hunter powers, rather than the standard powers that most of us have? The rules do reference some quirks...

[The Jackal]

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Zinto

I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either.

It's more about information (read: vote tallies) than suspicion, per se.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

but I also have a nagging suspicion that it will be much easier for wolves to avoid poor votes (or what would look poor in retrospect a few days later) with 1-2 dukes in their pocket.

I'm not following you. Why would it be easier than usual for them to avoid "poor votes"? What difference do the dukes make?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Quick thought to add to this: is there any suspicion that the wolves might have amped-up or tamped-down versions of duke/hunter powers, rather than the standard powers that most of us have? The rules do reference some quirks...

I donno, with a cunning and brutal and 6 items, there's a lot of different scenarios that could play out without the wolf team having any other bonuses. Do you have any ideas about what that would look like? I think most of the unknown stuff for this game will be in relation to order of actions if there are conflicting ones.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

I read it as hyperbole. Danny did it a lot as well.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I'm not following you. Why would it be easier than usual for them to avoid "poor votes"? What difference do the dukes make?

"Poor" in terms of votes that we'd normally look at as avoidance, once we know people's allegiances, especially once we (hopefully) nab the first wolf. On D1/D2 they don't have to be as careful about not voting each other or staying away from runs, or pushing other candidates.

Now, this is definitely dependent on which wolf would be in the running because if a wolf duke who wasn't in the vote had to use their power, that'd certainly look suspicious.

Mostly I was just saying that I don't think vote analysis will be as useful as it is in other games. As we move on in the game yes, it'll become better - but not necessarily early on.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

Ditto.

That's the reason for my vote on font. She is so sure on Vaimes being a villager. Either she has a tell on him that none of us know, or she's blowing smoke up our collective butts.

I feel like it's impossible to be 100% certain on Day 1.

[fontisian]

Grover: 1. Vaimes is a close friend irl.
2. I've had just a strong a townread on him last game.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I read it as hyperbole. Danny did it a lot as well.

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.

[The Jackal]

Unvote Grover

[Narcizo]

Well I think that you worries are what my hunter kill the duke scheme would take care of. It basically take the problem of duking out of the game by gauranteeing the death of the duke (particular if the duke is used to save someone else).

I can see situations where the wolves might be able to duke for someone else towards end game so we better make sure we catch some wolves before we get to that stage.

[The Jackal]

I think Shoveler has been pretty helpful, so definitely avoiding him D1. I've been off on my read of cheek in multiple games so I'm not going to get into reading his D1 comments at this point either because I don't trust myself with him.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Well I think that you worries are what my hunter kill the duke scheme would take care of. It basically take the problem of duking out of the game by gauranteeing the death of the duke (particular if the duke is used to save someone else).

I can see situations where the wolves might be able to duke for someone else towards end game so we better make sure we catch some wolves before we get to that stage.

Best laid plans could be shot to shit by items as well, though. I'd also think you'll find some hunters hesitant to blow their ability early in the game, especially with items out there that can stop it.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.

Well that depends - maybe on day one but day two I, for example, pushed quite hard to not lynch Eagle last game. I prefer that people come out with this stuff rather than not say anything at all as it reveals possible connections and allegiances. And it tends to engender discussion and activity. Obviously I'm not saying that it's always good but rather that than people posting "quiet day today" all the time. Wear your heart on your sleeve and all that.

[The Jackal]

Truth, I'd always rather see it more active!

[fontisian]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.

If you're going to talk to me, then talk to me.

I'm confident enough in my town reads to state them and try to give them some protection toDay. That's a pretty low bar. What precisely is your issue with it?

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by fontisian

If you're going to talk to me, then talk to me.

I'm confident enough in my town reads to state them and try to give them some protection toDay. That's a pretty low bar. What precisely is your issue with it?

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

Why do you guys capitalize the D and M in today and tomorrow, by the way?

And it's not just you, but yes, you do seem to come out with strong reads on D1. And I'm saying this even with you reading me as town - I find it hard to get strong reads early so maybe that's just something I need to get better at.

It'd also be one thing for you saying Vaimes is town if we knew you were good - but we have no idea what allegiance you are, so it's mostly empty words. But certainly good to know your thought process.

As far as unvoting Grover, I never intended my vote to stay there and I don't mind the posts I've seen from him thus far. Seems a little different than when he was a wolf, though maybe he's just learning

[The Jackal]

vote timmae

[Grover]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Grover: 1. Vaimes is a close friend irl.
2. I've had just a strong a townread on him last game.

Okay.

I consider Jackal a good friend. I don't go out making bold claims that someone is village/otherwise based on my relationship with a player outside of the game.

2. This is a new game. Maybe it's a similar read in his play style, fine. I just find the completely certainty strange. That's just me.

[Grover]

I'm just a purist when it comes to playing a game and I find it head scratching when people invoke reasons outside of a game for something or another

[The Jackal]

Grover I will say that one difference in me and you vs font and vaimes is that it seems they've played WW together a lot, so it makes a little more sense that they'd be able to read each other. But I still struggle with what to make of that info on D1.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Grover I will say that one difference in me and you vs font and vaimes is that it seems they've played WW together a lot, so it makes a little more sense that they'd be able to read each other. But I still struggle with what to make of that info on D1.

Oh, I've taken that into account. Clearly if you're playing against someone on a weekly basis, you're going to eventually have a decent read on them.

[fontisian]

Originally Posted by Grover

Oh, I've taken that into account. Clearly if you're playing against someone on a weekly basis, you're going to eventually have a decent read on them.

No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by fontisian

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

By this do you mean that he didn't vote you because of a townread on Vaimes in previous D1's? I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I wasn't the only one struck by that.

I'm not at the point where I want to vote you over it, and like I said before I'm interested in seeing everyone's thought process because it forces wolves to make up reasons for voting people, but I know that I'm slightly turned off by early D1 town reads.

[The Jackal]

Seems like we've heard at least a little bit from everyone? Good start.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by fontisian

No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

Because my logic can be as screwed up as I want it to be.

And because I hadn't noticed it as ardently as this time around.

[Autumn]

Just checked in and saw game is on. For some reason Gmail buried my notification. Catching up now ...

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

And, assuming full disclosure, would rule out a wolf duke/hunter killing themselves by hitting their own faction. I'd rather have that be a possibility to f with their decision making.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

Indeed. Seems to be a matter of personal playstyle, though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Anyone have a vote count?

Morning folks!

I will have a vote count up shortly.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by fontisian

No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

I think he was a wolf last time... Alignment can often affect reactions to common WW themes/discussions/actions, of course.

For instance, I understand the way you present D1 reads and interact with Vaimes and would call your townread of Vaimes alignment-neutral.

Grover, who, as you pointed out, didn't react to the above in the previous game, where he was a wolf, is now pinged by this. Seems better than neutral to me.