Soccer Thread 2020-2021

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

European super league: Premier League ‘big six’ agree to join new competition | European club football | The Guardian

The only question I have is does this mean Fulham will stay up now?

Seriously, this is BS but hardly surprising.

This thing is going to be a major fight. 15 permanent members and 5 qualifiers. So far, no PSG and no German clubs. UEFA says the teams will not be allowed in other competitions, and the players may be banned from international competitions. This will all be coming soon to a European court near you.

[sovereignstar v2]

Makes me want to puke.

[sterlingice]

I have to think they have a avenue for this to succeed or else it wouldn't have happened.

Also - I know nothing about professional soccer - but reports are that the fans hate this. Explain this one to me. If, say, Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Oregon (I dunno - you get the idea even if the teams aren't perfect) went off to form a 10 team "Super League" in college football, their fans would be a little sad to be lose out on some rivalries but, really, they'd be more like "eff you, Auburn/Texas A&M/Florida State/Penn State - we got ours and your leagues suck now; should have been better so you could join the big boys".


SI

[sovereignstar v2]

Yeah, the more local and vocal fans will hate it almost across the board. These are clubs with the largest global presence, however, and fans in the Far East will eat it up for example.

[AlexB]

My hope is that is actually goes through, as otherwise this will always be the go-to posturing / flexing whenever they want something

However I also hope that all six get kicked out of the league, FA Cup, Champions League, etc immediately, players for these teams are barred from playing international football, and that phoenix clubs are formed for each of the five that don’t already have them

This way the majority of players will hopefully cancel their contracts as the clubs should be in breach, so the Super League will hopefully end up with the 10-20% who will chase the money at all costs, plus a bunch of third tier players who wouldn’t otherwise get close to international football and see a payday, so the whole thing falls completely flat with a third rate product.

And hopefully the phoenix clubs draw considerably more fans than the originals playing in this new league.

When it fails, these clubs are welcome to come back at Tier 8 and work their way through the leagues again.

It will almost certainly not work out like this, but that would be my ideal.

[AlexB]

Dola - one silver lining to all this: it was great to finally win an FA Cup final yesterday!

[AlexB]

Double dola - and Mourinho is sacked too!

[GrantDawg]

Us, the makers of a football management simulation game, this morning: pic.twitter.com/VdjfzhFUD8

— Football Manager (@FootballManager) April 19, 2021

[Ksyrup]

As a recent watcher of soccer it's funny to see someone like Mourinho constantly recycled, suck, be a jerk, and get fired. I mean, I know he is/was a legend, but I really don't know him as anything but a coach who can't win or stay at any club.

[pantera]

Originally Posted by AlexB

This way the majority of players will hopefully cancel their contracts as the clubs should be in breach, so the Super League will hopefully end up with the 10-20% who will chase the money at all costs

I'm not a fan of this Super League idea, but in what sports league have you ever seen 80-90% of players NOT chasing the most money? The vast majority of the best players in the world will end up in the Super League.

And hopefully the phoenix clubs draw considerably more fans than the originals playing in this new league.

The local fans will continue to be furious about this, but these SL teams will grow fandom across the globe. And you can 100% bet that there will be a handful of regular season SL games played each year in the US, the UAE, Australia, Japan, etc.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I have to think they have a avenue for this to succeed or else it wouldn't have happened.

Also - I know nothing about professional soccer - but reports are that the fans hate this. Explain this one to me. If, say, Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Oregon (I dunno - you get the idea even if the teams aren't perfect) went off to form a 10 team "Super League" in college football, their fans would be a little sad to be lose out on some rivalries but, really, they'd be more like "eff you, Auburn/Texas A&M/Florida State/Penn State - we got ours and your leagues suck now; should have been better so you could join the big boys".

SI

I think this is actually a good comparison. I think what you are saying underestimates the value of the local rivalry in both sports in a similar way that others overestimate it when it comes to the College Football Playoffs. Just using the teams that you chose, Ohio State and Michigan matter to the College Football Playoffs because of the Big Ten in the same way Manchester United and Liverpool matter to the European Super League because of the EPL. We have seen Alabama and Clemson or even Alabama and OSU a few times over the last 10-15 years. No one believes either one of those matchups matter to the Crimson Tide fan base as much as the Auburn matchup.

There is an avenue to a Super League but that would require a minimum of getting rid of competitions that many of the bigger clubs don't really care about and probably going as far as leaving UEFA/FIFA altogether.

[Ksyrup]

As an American watching soccer, I come at it from a purely American place as far as pro sports go. I only watch one league - EPL - and I don't care about the competitions. When I saw Leicester won yesterday, I was happy they got 3 points until I realized it was FA Cup, then I didn't care. I guess there's money in those competitions and that it serves a purpose and you want to do well, but I couldn't care less about anything other than the league. It's just the hardwiring in my brain. The idea of teams playing in multiple leagues doesn't even register with me - I can't wrap my brain around it. I've always viewed the other competitions as tournaments to fill space during the league season and that's all.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by pantera

I'm not a fan of this Super League idea, but in what sports league have you ever seen 80-90% of players NOT chasing the most money? The vast majority of the best players in the world will end up in the Super League.

I think players in countries that the main sport is soccer, it is a little different. Money is a major motivator, but even the biggest star values wearing his countries jersey. If taking a small pay cut means he can still play for the national side, I imagine there will be more to choose not to play in ESL. Heck, it might end being a retirement place for older stars that retire from national teams.

[GrantDawg]

dola: just as an add, can the ESL really pay more than league teams if they lose the revenue of their national leagues? If Man U is only playing ESL, are they making the same gate as a Man U playing in the EPM, the FA Cup, the Euro Championship etc? If they really bar them from all other competitions, then can that one revenue stream (and merchandising) really be more? They must really believe they are not going to get banned.

[pantera]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

dola: just as an add, can the ESL really pay more than league teams if they lose the revenue of their national leagues? If Man U is only playing ESL, are they making the same gate as a Man U playing in the EPM, the FA Cup, the Euro Championship etc? If they really bar them from all other competitions, then can that one revenue stream (and merchandising) really be more? They must really believe they are not going to get banned.

The Premier League has massive TV and sponsorship deals. Those deals all collapse if the biggest clubs leave. Sky Sports knows Liverpool vs. Manchester United is a far bigger draw than West Ham vs. Everton (even MORE so in the future if LFC and MU hoover up even more of the biggest stars). The Premier League will cave & allow them to continue playing.

[Ghost Econ]

So what's the NCAA equivalent of the Super League?

Bama - Man U
LSU - Chelsea
Florida - liverpool
Georgia - Arsenal
Ohio State - Barca
Michigan - Madrid
Texas - Munich
Oklahoma - Dortmund
Notre Dame - PSG
USC - Atlerico
Clemson - Man City
FSU - Milan
Miami - Inter
Vandy - Tottenham

[sovereignstar v2]

Well Manchester United shouldn't be Bama as they haven't even managed to win the league in eight years.

[pantera]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Well Manchester United shouldn't be Bama as they haven't even managed to win the league in eight years.

Man U = Notre Dame. Tons of history, lots of prestige, a big TV draw, still pretty good but now overtaken by teams that break the rules ("education" is a joke at Alabama, Clemson, etc = Manchester City, Chelsea, PSG run by crooked oligarchs & sheikhs).

[Ghost Econ]

Yeah, I forgot Juventus, probably should have put them for Bama. Storied history, disappeared for a small period for cheating, then dominating for a spell.

I really just made a list to make the Spurs-Vandy joke.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by pantera

I'm not a fan of this Super League idea, but in what sports league have you ever seen 80-90% of players NOT chasing the most money? The vast majority of the best players in the world will end up in the Super League.

That’s why part of my assumption was that they would be banned from all football other than this Super League, including internationals.

That would would make a difference to the majority I think, but yeah, if they can still play in the world cup, domestic leagues, you’re right - there is no doubt they will follow the money

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by pantera

The Premier League has massive TV and sponsorship deals. Those deals all collapse if the biggest clubs leave. Sky Sports knows Liverpool vs. Manchester United is a far bigger draw than West Ham vs. Everton (even MORE so in the future if LFC and MU hoover up even more of the biggest stars). The Premier League will cave & allow them to continue playing.

Those deals would collapse anyways. If Sky is paying for Liverpool vs. Manchester United, it is paying for two of the biggest clubs in the country and the top players from those clubs competing for something. Is the Premier League a priority for either club if you have the ESL? Why would Klopp play Virgil Van Dyke or Ole play Bruno Fernandes in that PL match when they have an ESL match later that week. The EPL becomes inherently less important for those clubs since they don't need to win the league or come top four to get into the Champions League. Hell, given what happened this year, why would Klopp play anyone of significance in a derby match with Everton? For the supporters? HA!

It makes no sense for the clubs in the ESL to make the same commitment to the EPL as they would to the ESL. It also makes zero sense for the broadcasters to make the same commitment to the EPL knowing that 30% of the league does not see it the league title as the priority.

[MIJB#19]

This "Super League" idea was already there 25 years ago. The only thing new here is Manchester City being part of the renegades and no longer being part of the complainers.

[ISiddiqui]

There is, imo, not a chance that UEFA and FIFA bans the players from the TSL from international competitions. FIFA is never going to devalue the World Cup. Remember we're talking FIFA here.

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[albionmoonlight]

Back when soccer was something that Americans only noticed every four years, it was easy to pretend like it was a pure sport and all about love of the game and patriotism, etc.

As we get more into following the professional leagues, etc., we are realizing that--like every sport on Earth--it is mostly about billionaire owners trying to squeeze as much out of their teams as they can.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But it does bust the myth a bit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

There is, imo, not a chance that UEFA and FIFA bans the players from the TSL from international competitions. FIFA is never going to devalue the World Cup. Remember we're talking FIFA here.

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I'm not sure how much a relative handful of players missing devalues the WC globally.

The name on the front outweighs the name on the back for most viewers worldwide IMO.

[ISiddiqui]

Maybe in the US, but if you didn't have Messi or Ronaldo (for example) in the WC, interest would be lower in a lot of places in the world.

(Actually it would affect the US - 4 of the US's starters play for the announced teams)

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[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm not sure how much a relative handful of players missing devalues the WC globally.

The name on the front outweighs the name on the back for most viewers worldwide IMO.

We are potentially talking about 15 clubs multiplied by 20-some players each that will almost all certainly be top international players on the top national teams. The biggest stars in the game would absolutely be attached to this thing, so we are talking about a World Cup where the top teams are missing their top tier players and also no Messi and Ronaldo. It would have a huge impact.

[Ksyrup]

It's too bad the US didn't qualify. We could trade Pulisic for all the best teams missing their best players. And still not get out of the group stage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

We are potentially talking about 15 clubs multiplied by 20-some players each that will almost all certainly be top international players on the top national teams. The biggest stars in the game would absolutely be attached to this thing, so we are talking about a World Cup where the top teams are missing their top tier players and also no Messi and Ronaldo. It would have a huge impact.

I ain't buying it, especially not with fans against the whole concept.

I mean, you've got supporters of the club's involved against it ... maybe they tell the clubs to go fish.

Matters hardly at all to me, I follow at a distance at most. But it'd be funny as hell as they launched this league and it fell hard on its face.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Back when soccer was something that Americans only noticed every four years, it was easy to pretend like it was a pure sport and all about love of the game and patriotism, etc.

As we get more into following the professional leagues, etc., we are realizing that--like every sport on Earth--it is mostly about billionaire owners trying to squeeze as much out of their teams as they can.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But it does bust the myth a bit.

That's a relatively new development though in the last 10-20 years. So you can understand why fans across Europe have reacted the way they have to this. It's basically the death of the sport as most people know it - and it's been going that direction for a long time but this will move the schedule up quite a few years. Although the money that the EPL passes down to the clubs in the lower leagues is desultory, it does keep them afloat not to mention the impact this is going to have to the finances of the individual FAs.

The closest I can compare to the social impact this has in the UK is if 20-30 years ago the 8 biggest MLB clubs decided they were going to now play in a tournament with the biggest 4 Asian clubs and take a huge chunk of the TV money that MLB had. Even then I don't think it's apples to apples. There's nothing in US sport that even closely compares to the Football League.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Double dola - and Mourinho is sacked too!

This was a bit of good news though why this happened on the week of the League Cup Final is a bit baffling.

Jurgen does not look comfortable at all.

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp watches Leeds players warm up wearing “Football is for the fans... Champions League EARN IT” t-shirts pic.twitter.com/XBTn5UIb0B

— roger bennett (@rogbennett) April 19, 2021

[MIJB#19]

There's no way UEFA/FIFA or the national football association will stand a chance in court to disallow this "Super League", they don't have the sole right to organize football events, there's clear precedent with cases in other sports. The real question has been and still is: is there a market for this? 25 years ago, maybe not, but we've seen how the UEFA has kept these clubs happy by giving more guaranteed Champions' League group phase slots to the big leagues and more money to keep them inside their brand.

And we also know they'll need that money, none of those "super" clubs have a healthy bank balance.

[sovereignstar v2]

LOL, where the hell did those shirts come from? Surely they couldn't have just been printed up. They are pretty rich as UEFA has never been about the fans as far as I know.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Back when soccer was something that Americans only noticed every four years, it was easy to pretend like it was a pure sport and all about love of the game and patriotism, etc.

As we get more into following the professional leagues, etc., we are realizing that--like every sport on Earth--it is mostly about billionaire owners trying to squeeze as much out of their teams as they can.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But it does bust the myth a bit.

TBF, until your lot started buying clubs it was largely like that

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

There is, imo, not a chance that UEFA and FIFA bans the players from the TSL from international competitions. FIFA is never going to devalue the World Cup. Remember we're talking FIFA here.

I think it will be the other way around: when these clubs get their separate league, there's no way these clubs will allow their players to compete in the old world FIFA and UEFA competitions. FIFA has been paying off these clubs for the last decade or two to keep these top players inside their brand. But that won't happen, it's quite clear that their intent it to have this 'super league' as an alternative to the UEFA competitions.

It makes more sense that these clubs are just using this for the nth time to get even more money from the UEFA competitions and with that get rid of the financial fair play rules.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

25 years ago

Ah, it was 1998.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...r-1180341.html

And then again in 2009: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...s-1646891.html

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

It makes more sense that these clubs are just using this for the nth time to get even more money from the UEFA competitions and with that get rid of the financial fair play rules.

You still have it backwards. FFP was designed to keep new investment out of football so your Arsenals and AC Milans remained relevant. It failed and now those who were championing it have lifted the drawbridge completely by leaving UEFA and forming this Super League.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

There's no way UEFA/FIFA or the national football association will stand a chance in court to disallow this "Super League", they don't have the sole right to organize football events, there's clear precedent with cases in other sports. The real question has been and still is: is there a market for this? 25 years ago, maybe not, but we've seen how the UEFA has kept these clubs happy by giving more guaranteed Champions' League group phase slots to the big leagues and more money to keep them inside their brand.

And we also know they'll need that money, none of those "super" clubs have a healthy bank balance.

You’re right, there’s no legal way that it can be stopped, so the only way of doing so is to make sure that they & the players involved have no recourse into the World Cup, international Continental cups, domestic tournaments, etc

They can do that surely - these tournaments would be run by FIFA, UEFA, CONCAAF, etc and therefore only open to players registered with FIFA and subsidiaries.

If these players play in the Super League they would not be recognised by FIFA and therefore not registered or eligible for their tournaments

It’s the only leverage I can see that they have, and they have to be prepared to take a short term hit (at least) to do this (which TBH might be biggest problem - football in general is not known to take decisions that will cost money)

[sovereignstar v2]

UEFA FFP, a system that limits wages and spending based on revenue. And pay no bother to the debt some of these clubs rack up.

On a related note, here are the latest revenue numbers from Deloitte....

2020 Rank Club Revenue
(€ million) Country

1 Barcelona 840.8
2 Real Madrid 757.3
3 Manchester United 711.5
4 Bayern Munich 660.1
5 Paris Saint-Germain 635.9
6 Manchester City 610.6
7 Liverpool 604.7
8 Tottenham Hotspur 521.1
9 Chelsea 513.1
10 Juventus 459.7
11 Arsenal 445.6
12 Borussia Dortmund 377.1
13 Atlético Madrid 367.6
14 Internazionale 364.6
15 Schalke 04 324.8

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I have to think they have a avenue for this to succeed or else it wouldn't have happened.

Also - I know nothing about professional soccer - but reports are that the fans hate this. Explain this one to me. If, say, Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, and Oregon (I dunno - you get the idea even if the teams aren't perfect) went off to form a 10 team "Super League" in college football, their fans would be a little sad to be lose out on some rivalries but, really, they'd be more like "eff you, Auburn/Texas A&M/Florida State/Penn State - we got ours and your leagues suck now; should have been better so you could join the big boys".

If Notre Dame and Oregon are 4-6 in November every year no one gives a fuck those losses are to Alabama, Clemson, etc. Just like Tottenham/Juventus in the Champions League is awesome, but no one is going to care about watching Tottenham & Juventus in March when they're both 12th in the table & under .500

You don't even need to ban players from international teams (and I'd be really opposed to anything that did that without grandfathering in contracts already signed), just ban the teams from your domestic leagues & cups & we'll see how many fans they'll have when they have 5 straight losing seasons. Real/Barca will be fine, the rest? Idk... and even the big English ones like Man U & Liverpool I can't imagine the supporters would be real happy if it's a choice between playing domestic teams (and enjoying that superiority) or this league unless they're in the hunt.

[Icy]

I'm a Real Madrid fan but I don't like the idea at all, at least short term. Playing in the the Champions league was something that had to be earned finishing in the top teams in your home league, sometimes some medium clubs reached it and it was fun and also a huge money injection for them. If now it's going to be mainly the same 15 teams plus 5 "earning" it (I wonder how) it's going to lose part of the interest.

Then medium/long term, it will be mainly like US pro sports, without promotion/relegation and with the same teams always playing there, creating new rivalries etc and then the fans of these teams will love it.

On the other hand, it's going to make the richer teams even richer, they won't care about the home league as no longer is needed to qualify for the new league and will play mainly the reserves as they already do for the first rounds of the local cups.

[MIJB#19]

The UEFA already announced a revamped Champions' League format for the 2024/'25 season with 36 'league' participants, with 10 guaranteed matches before the knockout stages. UEFA announces new format for club competitions to be introduced as of 2024/25 season | Inside UEFA | UEFA.com

The timing of these two announcements makes perfectly clear that one of these is a reaction on the other one.

[AlexB]

The vote on the changes has long been planned for today, and was a concession by UEFA to the ECA who wanted more games, more money, better chance of being in the CL

At the same time they were also putting together this Super League nonsense, and obviously felt that the changes didn’t make them as rich as they wanted.

That is why FIFA and UEFA have been so aggressive today - they were being played by the very same people who they were trying to appease.

I don’t see how the likes of Juve and United in particular can ever be taken back in by football if this Super League doesn’t get off the ground - they have openly screwed UEFA in the most public way.

[AlexB]

Dola, it was also telling that it was unanimously voted through, including by PSG, Bayern and Porto who were rumoured to be the preferred three other members of the Super League

[sovereignstar v2]

Some awful words coming out of Florentino Perez tonight.

[GrantDawg]

Isn't Bayern largely own by the fans? I don't see any way fan owned clubs (most German clubs) are going to participate in this.

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[Critch]

Rumors that two of the English teams are already on the verge of pulling out. Probably watched the Florentino Perez interview and it set off alarm bells.

Man City and somebody else. If there's a team that doesnt need a mad money grab to stave off bankruptcy, it's Man City.

[pantera]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Isn't Bayern largely own by the fans? I don't see any way fan owned clubs (most German clubs) are going to participate in this.

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I'm not 100% sure but I think German clubs are all 51% fan-owned.

Most fans are against the Super League. But if it truly does happen, Bayern in particular may feel the need to join, otherwise it will no longer be considered among the giants. Love it or hate it, this Super League is likely to be massively successful financially.

I'm a Liverpool fan, and the supporters are outraged at the owners Fenway Sports Group (who also own the Red Sox). I'm worried Jurgen Klopp will leave. He doesn't like this idea at all.

[sovereignstar v2]

Rumor is that a couple of the English clubs still might not be entirely on board at this point. Seems to be Chelsea and City.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Some awful words coming out of Florentino Perez tonight.

My first thought was who the hell thought it was a good idea to have Florentino Perez be the front man on this. My second thought is who else would be dumb/brave enough to come out and front this other than Florentino Perez.