NFL WEEK 9

[gstelmack]

My predication for Denver / KC - both QBs get hurt before their matchups, which renders the games meaningless to this debate so it can continue ad infinitum.

Again, we'll know in a bit if KC is for real, as they get to play Denver twice and answer all these questions.

[TRO]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Against the same schedule as Denver, the Chiefs have been outgained in yardage.

But yardage is deceiving as well. KC has had better starting field position than Denver has and held opponents to worse field position. Denver plays a faster pace which leads to more total yardage. In addition, in games like this past weekend against Buffalo, KC returns two plays for TDs which eliminate entire offensive possessions.

Carmen's view point here is pretty representative of mine. Denver appears to be a better team, but the difference isn't as far apart as you think it is. You can't use the schedule argument against the Chiefs and then ignore it for Denver.

I do think that the Chiefs have a few glaring holes on the team. Most notably is their offensive line. With Denver getting healthy up front, this is where I think Denver will likely beat KC. Especially when KC's receivers have shown an inability to beat their man at the line of scrimmage which limits Alex Smith from being able to complete quick passes.

The other big weakness of the team is the lack of speed from our secondary. Buffalo showed that if you can protect the QB and give him a little time, there are plays to be made vertically down the field. I don't think Denver can protect as well as Buffalo did and while Denver has a great passing game, it isn't built on vertical routes. KC's defense matches up very well here.

The KC offensive game plan of ball control drives is also a typically sound game plan against Peyton teams. If you can keep him on the side lines, he has a chance to get frustrated and be out of rhythm.

Ultimately, I'm expecting a split between KC & Denver as I think both teams win behind pass rushes aided by the home crowds.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I cant believe how much better Lacy looks as a NFL player than Richardson does.

I've said it before, but of the three he was the most fun to watch. He is much more of a finesse back in a power back's body. His ability to read blocks/holes, his feet, and his spin move were all things that separated him from the other two. I still think there is something mentally/physically up with Richardson.

[RainMaker]

Lacy looks real good but the Bears defense is abysmal.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

As for the Broncos/Chiefs comparison, I'm not trying to say either has played a difficult schedule. If someone believes that wins and losses are the SOLE determining factor about how good of a team each is, they can do that. I try to look deeper. And the deeper I look, the more unimpressed I get. Against the same schedule as Denver, the Chiefs have been outgained in yardage. That doesn't bode well at all when they face better competition.

The KC offense certainly isn't going to blow the doors off anything, but part of the reason the offense doesn't have a ton of yards is because of their defense. They lead the league in takeaways by 2 and turnover margin by 5. That's a lot and it often means that the offense is playing with a short field on average a couple times a game (leading to easy if somewhat short scoring drives). In addition, the defense is scoring touchdown a game more often than not, meaning the offense doesn't get on the field in those situations for a longer period of time. You can't have as many drives when your defense is actually a scoring force for your team.

Also, the Chiefs have had a lot of games where they are grinding out yards on the ground in the 4th quarter to run the clock and lean on their defense. It doesn't get you flashy offensive numbers and shortens the game considerably, but it will get you wins. Charles and Smith have been clutch all year long in the 4th quarter when they were looking to finish off a game.

[MizzouRah]

Test

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The KC offense certainly isn't going to blow the doors off anything, but part of the reason the offense doesn't have a ton of yards is because of their defense. They lead the league in takeaways by 2 and turnover margin by 5. That's a lot and it often means that the offense is playing with a short field on average a couple times a game (leading to easy if somewhat short scoring drives). In addition, the defense is scoring touchdown a game more often than not, meaning the offense doesn't get on the field in those situations for a longer period of time. You can't have as many drives when your defense is actually a scoring force for your team.

Also, the Chiefs have had a lot of games where they are grinding out yards on the ground in the 4th quarter to run the clock and lean on their defense. It doesn't get you flashy offensive numbers and shortens the game considerably, but it will get you wins. Charles and Smith have been clutch all year long in the 4th quarter when they were looking to finish off a game.

The picture doesn't really change when you look at the KC offense on a per play basis. DVOA ranks them 18th.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

I think this is a case of you changing your priorities than the league's culture changing. The true culture of the NFL has not changed despite all of the window dressing trying to suggest otherwise.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

You mean like abuse and harassment? News flash, there are laws about that even when its just verbal and emotional.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am pretty disgusted with the culture of the NFL right now. A guy who by all accounts has suffered 18 months of emotional abuse is criticized and it is being speculated he will never be welcomed back by teammates. Yet woman abusers, rapists, dog killers, manslaughters, etc...are welcome back with open arms. Those are some fucked priorities.

To play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want a teammate who runs to the press when he gets mistreated instead of talking to the head coach. I think some of the things Incognito did are ridiculous and shouldn't be defended. But, had Martin gone to Philbin back in April and tried to resolve the situation that way - it would have been a lot better for the team than saying nothing and then waiting for a bigger event and going AWOL/to the press.

Now, if Martin did go to Philbin this summer and he didn't handle it - that's a different story altogether. But I haven't heard that as being the case so far.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

Yes, no, maybe?

If you're going to say certain things, I think you should be prepared for the consequence of those actions.

This isn't the old days where I could go home to get away from being called "cockeye" because I have a lazy eye. These things follow you everywhere now and have a much larger audience because of the internet/social media. It reminds me of the kids who posted that they tore up some dudes house on the internet then the parents were furious with someone else mentioning it because it could screw up their kids futures.

We need to be teaching our kids early that using the internet/social media has ramifications. That it isn't an "anything goes" playground.

[Suicane75]

Why is that so surprising though? I started watching football in the early 80's and even then it was pretty common knowledge that if you got hurt, you'd be taken into the locker room and shot up so you couldn't feel it. Sprain your knee? Shoot it up and go out there and play till you fall down and we'll shoot you. And 20 years later people go into shock to find out that drugs and peds are a major part of the culture? People have been looking the other way or not looking at all, for forever.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Because it doesn't apply to Jon's life I'm guessing his answer is that it doesn't matter.

C'mon DT, quit trying so hard.

Just because one happens doesn't make the other somehow invalid or less "real."

Didn't say it wasn't real ... said it wasn't the OMG-The-Sky-Is-Falling-Impending-Disaster-We-Have-To-DO-Something-Dramatic situation that an increasingly unrealistic society tries to make it out to be.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by chadritt

You mean like abuse and harassment? News flash, there are laws about that even when its just verbal and emotional.

Then it would appear that there are other options besides suicide.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

And some people aren't nice. Do you want to legislate language? Should it be against the law for me to say mean things about you?

Of course not. All I am saying is you can't expect everyone to fight back like you're saying. For some it works, for many it doesn't.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Arles

To play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want a teammate who runs to the press when he gets mistreated instead of talking to the head coach. I think some of the things Incognito did are ridiculous and shouldn't be defended. But, had Martin gone to Philbin back in April and tried to resolve the situation that way - it would have been a lot better for the team than saying nothing and then waiting for a bigger event and going AWOL/to the press.

Now, if Martin did go to Philbin this summer and he didn't handle it - that's a different story altogether. But I haven't heard that as being the case so far.

Did Martin go to the media with the story? I haven't heard that. Didn't it all start because he left the team and people started digging into it?

You're just giving an example perhaps?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Arles

To play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want a teammate who runs to the press when he gets mistreated instead of talking to the head coach. I think some of the things Incognito did are ridiculous and shouldn't be defended. But, had Martin gone to Philbin back in April and tried to resolve the situation that way - it would have been a lot better for the team than saying nothing and then waiting for a bigger event and going AWOL/to the press.

Now, if Martin did go to Philbin this summer and he didn't handle it - that's a different story altogether. But I haven't heard that as being the case so far.

But did he run to the press?

The way I heard it, and maybe am wrong, was it took a while for the press to get the story and even longer for Martin to give a statement. As far as I can tell he still hasn't spoken much about it. Seems more like the press running with it. I haven't seem or heard MArtin out there shouting about how he is a victim to anyone who will listen.

I would say he didn't go the the head coach for the same reason many victims don't go to the police, teachers, etc... fear of retribution.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Did Martin go to the media with the story? I haven't heard that. Didn't it all start because he left the team and people started digging into it?

You're just giving an example perhaps?

My point is that instead of allowing the team to deal with it internally when it occurred - he waited six months and then created a circus (I'm guessing he also provided some of the voice mails and texts when requested by the media). If I were a player on the Dolphins, I'd be pretty aggravated with both guys right now.

The key to me is what really went on. From what I can gather from a myriad of sources, Martin went to the team in the offseason about the "locker room conduct" and Philbin made changes to the team rules going into camp to address those. Everyone thought it was dealt with. Then, two months in, the team got hit with these voice mails and texts that Martin had never provided them before and it escalated. I don't know what's real and what isn't, but unless Martin provided all that to the team back in the summer, I'm not sure how anyone can be too hard on the Dolphins here. That is, unless Martin did provide all this information to Miami back in the offseason - that's a game changer.

As of right now, I see Incognito as an idiot that should be cut given this and his prior behavior and Martin as someone who handled this very poorly.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Arles

The key to me is what really went on. From what I can gather from a myriad of sources, Martin went to the team in the offseason about the "locker room conduct" and Philbin made changes to the team rules going into camp to address those. Everyone thought it was dealt with. Then, two months in, the team got hit with these voice mails and texts that Martin had never provided them before and it escalated. I don't know what's real and what isn't, but unless Martin provided all that to the team back in the summer, I'm not sure how anyone can be too hard on the Dolphins here. That is, unless Martin did provide all this information to Miami back in the offseason - that's a game changer.

As of right now, I see Incognito as an idiot that should be cut given this and his prior behavior and Martin as someone who handled this very poorly.

If this is what really went on, and you are suggesting that Martin should've kept going back to Dolphin staff, then you are being very naive. If Philbin did make some changes that were supposed to have "handled" it, and shit was still going on, why do you think Martin would have any faith in the organization to go back to them YET AGAIN and try to get this handled when that avenue didn't work the first time? That's classic bully-enabling behavior... "here this rule is changed, that should take care of it, now let me just go over here and forget all about that bullying bullshit that I didn't want to deal with in the first place."

I'm not saying Martin is totally blameless, because I also don't know all of the details, but this story makes the entire Dolphin FO look like garbage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Multiple Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Lathum

But did he run to the press?

The way I heard it, and maybe am wrong, was it took a while for the press to get the story and even longer for Martin to give a statement. As far as I can tell he still hasn't spoken much about it. Seems more like the press running with it. I haven't seem or heard MArtin out there shouting about how he is a victim to anyone who will listen.

I would say he didn't go the the head coach for the same reason many victims don't go to the police, teachers, etc... fear of retribution.

Here's what we know:
1. He gets these threats back in April and doesn't tell the team.
2. Either he paid or was picked on to pay a big bar/trip tab in the offseason. Still not sure about these events.
3. He complains about random events without names to Philbin and Philbin changes some rules and talks to the team. He didn't suspend anyone as Martin never mentioned any names or specific behavior.
4. Incognito tries to do something to him again last week and Martin just bolts without saying anything to the team for a few days.
5. A few days later the team gets a complaint from Martin's representatives about Incognito with the texts and voice mails as evidence.
6. These texts/voice mails quickly make it to the press and Miami suspends Incognito.

Now, maybe the team leaked them to justify the suspension, but I doubt it. I'm guessing the leaks came from Martin's camp. Again, this just seems like a weird way to deal with all of it. Maybe Martin did feel he would be punished for saying something, I don't know. But, I can certainly understand some frustration with how he handled if from his current teammates. By leaving the team and filing a complaint midseason, he's created a media firestorm and cost them 2/5 of their OL.

I'm not trying to blame Martin for being the victim - Incognito certainly deserves his current criticism for this. I just would have felt better if Martin had indeed told the coach first. Right now, people are hammering Philbin for something that happened between two millionaire professional athletes in the offseason that he had no way to know about (unless he parsed through every Voicemail and text each player sent in the offseason). These weren't two kids in middle school who got bullied while the teacher left a blind eye and ignored it.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Multiple Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN

Meh, multiple is apparently 2. One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez and one is a guy who's brand new to the team.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Of course not. All I am saying is you can't expect everyone to fight back like you're saying. For some it works, for many it doesn't.

It doesn't even have to be fighting back. I went into a mental institution rather than fight back, because there was no fight back. I never once thought of killing myself, and I'm not judging those who do, but I was really fucking low and I think I understand the mind set. There are solutions, and they take effort and time and the understanding that things will get better. You need to have people teach you that, you need to have a support system, even if it's small. And that was real life shit, it wasn't people on twitter or facebook. For parents to have no idea it was happening, yes, I put blame on them, that's shitty parenting. For parents to know it's happening and then say they had no way to stop it from happening and/or affecting their child, that's shitty parenting too.

You'll never be able to shelter people from the world, but systemically, from parents to teachers to friends and family, we have to do a much better job of preparing young people for life, good and bad, and we've done a shitty job at that this generation because we haven't had to deal with a lot of this shit ourselves. I would guess that a lot of parents in this generation started using social media around the same their kids did, and that they're learning about and seeing this stuff for the first time and thus aren't quite equipped to handle it. But at the same time it doesn't seem like most of them know better than to limit or forbid it entirely, which is completely on them.

[Suicane75]

I think I'm getting way off the Martin subject and responding more or less to Lathums posts, so I'll digress.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Multiple Miami Dolphins players support Richie Incognito - ESPN

I read this article earlier today. It's part of why I made this comment:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Speaking of that culture, I've come to strongly suspect that the use of the n-word by white players is a whole lot more accepted "among the family" of the team than the general public realizes or could ever stomach.

Pouncey--you know, the black guy in the bar who gives Incognito a pound about 10 seconds after he screams out the n-word--is defending Incognito. I don't think that's because Pouncey is any sort of sell-out or wuss, either. I think it's just accepted behavior, at least in the Miami locker room, and probably in quite a few others.

[miami_fan]

Hmm...anybody want to take a shot at explaining what the HS coach meant by this?

Some players support Incognito; HS coach not surprised Martin bullied - CBSSports.com

Martin's high school coach wasn't surprised that Martin was targeted.

"Bullies usually go after people like him,” Harvard-Westlake School coach Vic Eumont told the Palm Beach Post's Andrew Abramson. “With his background, he's a perfect target. ...

“Before [Martin] wasn't around Nebraska, LSU kind of guys,”Eumont said. “He's always been around Stanford, Duke, Rice kind of players. ... “In locker rooms full of Nebraska, LSU, Southern Cal players, Miami players, they'll look at this as a weakness. If he makes it through all this, and if he was encouraged to come back, he'd come back with a vengeance. ...

“I can see where somebody that's a bully will take advantage of [Martin], and rather than him say anything would just hold it inside. I can see where if somebody was bullying him he would take that to heart, and be concerned and think it was his fault."

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Arles

he's created a media firestorm and cost them 2/5 of their OL.

and again we are blaming Martin. Incognitos actions are to blame, not Martins reactions.

[Arles]

ESPN just posted this:

Jonathan Martin checked himself into a hospital after leaving the Miami Dolphins - ESPN

Miami Dolphins offensive tackle Jonathan Martin recently checked himself into a South Florida hospital to be treated for emotional distress that led the second-year player to leave the team last week, league sources told ESPN.

Martin was visited at the hospital by Dolphins coach Joe Philbin, and the organization arranged for his parents to travel to South Florida, the sources said.

Martin's hospital stay was brief before he returned to California with his parents, according to sources.

The specific treatment of Martin's emotional condition was not disclosed, but sources say it was related to his belief that he had been targeted during a sustained level of harassment from teammates, including suspended guard Richie Incognito.

Martin did not disclose to Philbin any specific incident of harassment or bullying when the coach made the hospital visit, sources said.

Incognito was suspended Sunday night by the Dolphins for conduct detrimental to the team when Martin's representatives provided voice mail and text evidence from April that the team agreed was inappropriate.

Martin remains in California, preparing a detailed document for his cooperation with a league investigation into a string of alleged multiple incidents that he believes led to his emotional distress and exit from the team, sources said.

This whole thing is just bizarre. Outside of a serious penalty to Incognito from the league - I'm not sure what else to think at this point.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Meh, multiple is apparently 2. One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez and one is a guy who's brand new to the team.

Also, Ellerbe's suggestion that Martin should've brought this behavior to the team's leadership council that included Incognito is laughable. I can only think that Ellerbe missed the week on "irony" in English class.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and again we are blaming Martin. Incognitos actions are to blame, not Martins reactions.

First, I want to make sure people don't think I'm defending Incognito. I'm not, he's a punk and deserves what is coming. However, had Martin dealt with this internally in the offseason - maybe Martin is still playing and the Dolphins were able to bring in a new guard for Richie boy.

By waiting until now, he's put the team in a very difficult position. He basically assumed they wouldn't handle it right, never game them a chance and then submarined the organization midseason. In the long run, maybe it is better for preventing this type of behavior that he handled it this way. It certainly got more attention with him leaving the team and checking into a hospital. But, I can understand if existing players are a little peeved at the way Martin handled it - esp the timing.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Hmm...anybody want to take a shot at explaining what the HS coach meant by this?

Some players support Incognito; HS coach not surprised Martin bullied - CBSSports.com

Is this one really that hard? More NFL players come from football factories than good schools, and more come from tough situations than solid families. Martin's parents went to Harvard and he went to Stanford. The average NFL player would assume that he's soft.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Every so often there is a story where I feel so out of step with a lot of mass opinion that I feel very isolated as a person.

Anyhoo, this post on SoSH is the best take I've seen on the situation so far: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80409...ded/?p=5108420

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Is this one really that hard? More NFL players come from football factories than good schools, and more come from tough situations than solid families. Martin's parents went to Harvard and he went to Stanford. The average NFL player would assume that he's soft.

I get that. My point is he is saying this like it is something that NFL evaluators would need to take into consideration when building their teams. Obviously the Andrew Lucks are not having this issue but the way he is talking, NFL teams should be wary of players with a similar background as Martin.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I get that. My point is he is saying this like it is something that NFL evaluators would need to take into consideration when building their teams. Obviously the Andrew Lucks are not having this issue but the way he is talking, NFL teams should be wary of players with a similar background as Martin.

I'm guessing that QB is a completely different animal than OL in terms of that sort of expectation. And Luck came from a football family, right? Martin came from an academic family, went to an elite private high school, then Stanford, and by several accounts didn't fit in the NFL culture. He seems to me like an incredibly obvious target.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chadritt

One is a guy who supported Aaron Hernandez

Even given Pouncey's knack for picking the wrong side of an argument, he's not exactly a guy I'd think of as one who'd just rush right over to the horrible racist in the room & defend him just for kicks.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Every so often there is a story where I feel so out of step with a lot of mass opinion that I feel very isolated as a person.

Anyhoo, this post on SoSH is the best take I've seen on the situation so far: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80409...ded/?p=5108420

That dude fucking wins the internet on this whole thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Is this one really that hard? More NFL players come from football factories than good schools, and more come from tough situations than solid families. Martin's parents went to Harvard and he went to Stanford. The average NFL player would assume that he's soft.

I'll be honest, I read even more into the HS coach statement than that.

I read it as him all but saying Martin does come off as soft (as opposed to players just assuming it). Hard to get tone from a written piece of course & maybe I'm just imagining things, but there was just ... something.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I get that. My point is he is saying this like it is something that NFL evaluators would need to take into consideration when building their teams. Obviously the Andrew Lucks are not having this issue but the way he is talking, NFL teams should be wary of players with a similar background as Martin.

Luck is a QB. They dont need to be tough

Actually, I am sort of kidding there and sort of being truthful. They do have to be tough but Id speculate with their red shirts(you cant touch the QB) that the team just already assumes they are soft from the position they play.

I am sure Martin was just different and maybe doesnt have a lot of similar interests as them guys. Maybe he was reserved. Who knows?

Martin probably would have fit in fine on a team with better leadership. I have a hard time believing someone like Jeff Saturday wouldnt have picked up on Martin feeling uncomfortable and helped him out. Kind of sounds like the Dolphins locker room has some serious issues if after 2 years they cant make a young talented player feel like part of the team.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Arles

First, I want to make sure people don't think I'm defending Incognito. I'm not, he's a punk and deserves what is coming. However, had Martin dealt with this internally in the offseason - maybe Martin is still playing and the Dolphins were able to bring in a new guard for Richie boy.

By waiting until now, he's put the team in a very difficult position. He basically assumed they wouldn't handle it right, never game them a chance and then submarined the organization midseason. In the long run, maybe it is better for preventing this type of behavior that he handled it this way. It certainly got more attention with him leaving the team and checking into a hospital. But, I can understand if existing players are a little peeved at the way Martin handled it - esp the timing.

But the guy had by all accounts taken this behavior for so long. Seems like he was trying to " live with it" and just hit a breaking point. Can we really put the blame on him for the timing of it?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

but there was just ... something.

... something you wanted to read into it.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/m...nderlic-110613

Martin’s lowest grades were given for social maturity (6), focus (7) and interpersonal style (7). Even so, those marks were well above those posted by most of Martin’s peers in the 2012 draft.

“Martin’s mental ability test results are consistently positive,” the report reads. “His matrices data place him well above the minimum typically associated with his position.

“He is not afraid to say what is on his mind if things are not going as they should. He is likely to be seen as a team enforcer if his level of play lets him assume this role.”

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'll be honest, I read even more into the HS coach statement than that.

I read it as him all but saying Martin does come off as soft (as opposed to players just assuming it). Hard to get tone from a written piece of course & maybe I'm just imagining things, but there was just ... something.

Oh, sure. I can't imagine that he doesn't come off as soft. He's been described as things like soft-spoken, reserved, and intellectually curious. I suspect that those are personality traits that aren't exactly held in high regard in an NFL locker room.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I'm guessing that QB is a completely different animal than OL in terms of that sort of expectation. And Luck came from a football family, right? Martin came from an academic family, went to an elite private high school, then Stanford, and by several accounts didn't fit in the NFL culture. He seems to me like an incredibly obvious target.

Soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful = soft. Loud, ragey meathead = MAN.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Soft-spoken, articulate, educated, thoughtful = soft. Loud, ragey meathead = MAN.

In a locker room where this guy was one of the "leaders?"



Absolutely.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Lathum

But the guy had by all accounts taken this behavior for so long. Seems like he was trying to " live with it" and just hit a breaking point. Can we really put the blame on him for the timing of it?

I can see that, to a point. I just think it would have been a lot easier for him to have dealt with this in the offseason and let the team know. Maybe the focus here should be on finding ways to notify teams about player behavior that are a little more approachable for teammates. Almost a "silent witness" type thing. Just spit-balling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

... something you wanted to read into it.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/m...nderlic-110613

Eh "wanted to read into it" dramatically overstates how big a shit I give one way or another, just to be really honest about it.

I just really came away from that piece feeling as coach was about two or three more quotes away from outing the guy, if you just really want to know what I was thinking initially. After reading a longer version of the quotes, the coach really does come very very close IMO to saying outright that Martin was indeed "soft".

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by Arles

I can see that, to a point. I just think it would have been a lot easier for him to have dealt with this in the offseason and let the team know. Maybe the focus here should be on finding ways to notify teams about player behavior that are a little more approachable for teammates. Almost a "silent witness" type thing. Just spit-balling.

Should he have gone to the Leadership Council, where Incognito was a member? Or the coaching staff that sent Incognito after him?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Should he have gone to the Leadership Council, where Incognito was a member? Or the coaching staff that sent Incognito after him?

I think the goal should be to try offer as many accessible ways to tell the organization about improper player behavior as possible. If you work at a place where an a**hat employee is harassing you and best buddies with your supervisor - you often have an HR group you can contact outside of that circle. Same goes for Internal Affairs with Police/firemen setups. Maybe something like this is needed for each team.

There should be a system in place to allow this kind of communication before a guy goes AWOL and checks into a hospital. But, I do think that allowing idiots like Incognito to be part of any kind of leadership council is laughable. Guy has been a punk everywhere that he's been.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Arles

I can see that, to a point. I just think it would have been a lot easier for him to have dealt with this in the offseason and let the team know. Maybe the focus here should be on finding ways to notify teams about player behavior that are a little more approachable for teammates. Almost a "silent witness" type thing. Just spit-balling.

first off, I appreciat your though out responses.

I think in a situation like this hindsight is 20/20. I just don't think you can say the victim should have done this or the victim should have done that. To put one oz. of blame on them, or how they handled the situation is dead wrong IMO.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Arles

But, I do think that allowing idiots like Incognito to be part of any kind of leadership council is laughable. Guy has been a punk everywhere that he's been.

You put a guy like that on a leadership council because you value his brand of "leadership."

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

You put a guy like that on a leadership council because you value his brand of "leadership."

Exactly. He wasn't added by mistake.