Better Call Saul

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Logan

But if they just end up spending a few episodes next season unwinding this, it also means that they ultimately wasted the opportunity for a better storyline that they could have used to anchor the end of this season.

I said a few episodes back that I was 100% cool with the slow burn aspect of this, and wasn't in a rush to get anywhere but having just caught up last night, I REALLY didn't like this. I'm just so completely tired of all the stuff with Chuck. If he died, and that caused Jimmy to reevaluate things (or go further down the road), I would have been good with that. If he got busted on this scam and it ultimately hurt his career and Kim's (and killed his relationship with her that he values so much), I would have been good with that.

But I just have absolutely no interest in going through more of the Jimmy-Chuck relationship and Chuck's issues. Like cartman said, Gilligan has earned a lot of latitude here so we'll see but I'll be heading into next season with much lower expectations than I had just a day ago.

The problem with what you are asking for is that (IMO) Chuck and Kim are the two main things that lead to him becoming Saul Goodman. So you are looking for a British like show that concludes in 2 seasons. Not saying it wouldn't be fantastic tv but since it is American tv that are going to take 60 episodes to do the same thing. Same with Mike. He could meet Gus and go to work for him but that would pretty much end the show for him also. For better or worse I think Chuck is part of the show until the final season, possibly the final episode.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by panerd

The problem with what you are asking for is that (IMO) Chuck and Kim are the two main things that lead to him becoming Saul Goodman. So you are looking for a British like show that concludes in 2 seasons. Not saying it wouldn't be fantastic tv but since it is American tv that are going to take 60 episodes to do the same thing. Same with Mike. He could meet Gus and go to work for him but that would pretty much end the show for him also. For better or worse I think Chuck is part of the show until the final season, possibly the final episode.

Not at all. Walter White didn't go completely from Mr. Chips to Scarface in just two seasons and there's no reason Jimmy can't take that long or longer to make his turn. But it's already painfully obvious why Chuck will be part of his slide into his new life, so I question how much longer we have to be beaten over the head with it. And yeah, if he's still there into the final episode that will definitely be "for worse" IMO.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Logan

Not at all. Walter White didn't go completely from Mr. Chips to Scarface in just two seasons and there's no reason Jimmy can't take that long or longer to make his turn. But it's already painfully obvious why Chuck will be part of his slide into his new life, so I question how much longer we have to be beaten over the head with it. And yeah, if he's still there into the final episode that will definitely be "for worse" IMO.

My point was that this show seems to be relying on Michael McKean as main character 3 or 4 and so like Breaking Bad he will be there like Anna Gunn and Dean Norris until the bitter end. I don't disagree that I enjoy the Mike parts and the Saul flashback parts better than the Chuck stuff but I think they already have an arc planned with Chuck that is going to last through the entirety of the show.

[Logan]

Got it and I see where you're coming from with McKean=Gunn. I guess my point is that this continued Chuck storyline is basically the same as having to watch two seasons of pathetic Skyler hand jobs before Walt realized his life needed a change.

[Solecismic]

We know Jimmy is always battling the slip 'n fall side of his personality. At some point, he gets better at it and becomes Saul. I don't think we need to see a gradual progression there. Saul was never comfortable with the violence of the drug trade, so there's no hardening needed.

So either we move quickly to Cinnabon, or we draw Chuck and Kim out some more. I was hoping for the former. I think there's a story to tell after Cinnabon.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

We know Jimmy is always battling the slip 'n fall side of his personality. At some point, he gets better at it and becomes Saul. I don't think we need to see a gradual progression there. Saul was never comfortable with the violence of the drug trade, so there's no hardening needed.

So either we move quickly to Cinnabon, or we draw Chuck and Kim out some more. I was hoping for the former. I think there's a story to tell after Cinnabon.

You go to Cinnabon and you kill off Mike though right? Unless the show moves at two totally different time cycles.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by panerd

You go to Cinnabon and you kill off Mike though right? Unless the show moves at two totally different time cycles.

I think so. I get the appeal of Mike, especially when he's softened with the concept that he breaks bad out of love for his granddaughter. And I wouldn't mind a portion of season 3 devoted to moving him to where he was in BB. But I'm ready for the show to move past Cinnabon. Saul was a one-dimensional character in BB, and we're getting more dimensions now (the bingo scene last season was terrific). I want to see where that goes. The only real difference from where he is in BCS now and BB is a receptionist and slightly different clientele. Let's go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

My point was that this show seems to be relying on Michael McKean as main character 3 or 4 and so like Breaking Bad he will be there like Anna Gunn and Dean Norris until the bitter end.

And this reinforces my decision to basically have given up on the show after S1.

For as good as Mike is, and at times Saul, the Chuck scenes pretty much killed the show for me. One of the most annoying characters (and possibly performances) I've seen in quite a while. He's got X-Pac heat with me at this point.

If he is indeed sticking around, I just can't see myself getting (re) engaged with the show.

[rowech]

I liked the use of the Weasel commercial right after Jimmy's while they waited in the hospital. I also keep contemplating if there is a religious aspect to Jimmy becoming Saul in a reverse way as Saul came to be Paul.

[thesloppy]

I give this show/Odenkirk/McKean immense credit for walking the the tightrope of keeping Jimmy somehow likeable but always demonstrably scummy, while Chuck is despicable, but pretty much morally correct in every respect. I think that's probably tougher to write/act/direct than it appears.

Kim did a wonderful job putting their relationship into words, and pointing out why Chuck is still an asshole, even if he's always technically on the 'right' side, whereas the recent scene where kid-Jimmy pockets the cash from his dad's register shows that he always has and always will put himself first, without much thought to its effect on those around him. Despite the fact that we know Jimmy's a sketchy con artist who we KNOW is going to destroy everyone and everything around him (and Chuck's entirely reliable and always morally correct) they still manage to get the audience rooting for Jimmy (and against Chuck) every week, even as they explicitly show him fucking up the lives of everyone around him. They're doing a good job of selling the show exactly the way Jimmy sells himself, using his smile and good humor to put the audience on his side and obscure the fact that he's actually the villain of this story.

Regarding the Chuck/Skyler parallels, I find Chuck's & Jimmy's relationship sooooo much easier to take, if only because Skyler AND Walt (and pretty much everyone else on the show) were fucking miserable at that point, whereas Jimmy's MO/con relies upon constant good humor, a smile and a shrug, which certainly goes down a lot easier.

[Solecismic]

I don't know. Chuck is someone who clearly not only envies his brother's joie de vivre, but actively hinders his career. That's not morally correct. Meanwhile, Jimmy provides day care and shopping. VG has also chosen to portray a disability, EHS, which studies suggest is not a physical disorder (people with EHS are just as likely to respond negatively to fake electromagnetic exposure). This also is an overt suggestion of weak character. And, in the last episode, he uses his knowledge of Jimmy's weaknesses to fake an EHS attack to gain an advantage. There's really nothing moral about him.

We like Jimmy... until we see the ambulance-chasing side of him. He'll get away with it as long as he's using it for good (helping the elderly in legitimate fraud cases, or helping Kim regain the client Chuck took from her).

[thesloppy]

Good points. Perhaps it was wrong to frame Chuck as morally correct, rather than just making sure he's always technically correct. That's probably the connection that Chuck is failing to make as well, thinking that since he always follows the letter of the rules he also has the moral high ground. In any other circumstances he likely never has to make much of a distinction, but his relationship with Jimmy is dysfunctional enough to have separated those lines.

[PilotMan]

I think that Michael McKean has added a ton of depth to the show. His fatal flaw when it comes to his brother is competitiveness. He just can't stand that his brother would ever get ahead of him. His sabotaged his efforts when we tried to do it legitimately, and as far as I'm concerned got what he deserved when Jimmy returned the favor, albeit in a much darker, and more deceptive way.

No matter the bond of brotherly love, his need to constantly stay ahead, beat and otherwise have one over on Jimmy is as much a reason that Jimmy doesn't stay on the narrow as anything.

[thesloppy]

Yeah. I go back to that scene with kid-Jimmy stealing from his dad's register, which I think was purposefully meant to highlight how Jimmy was going to be 'slipping' regardless of anybody else's influence, but Chuck's probably helped him along every step of the way.

I do feel like we've been presented things through Jimmy's filter/viewpoint through much of the show, and have a suspicion that we're being set up for a later reveal, presenting much darker effects/results from Jimmy's actions, (current or past) which may also force another re-evaluation of Chuck as well.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I think that Michael McKean has added a ton of depth to the show. His fatal flaw when it comes to his brother is competitiveness. He just can't stand that his brother would ever get ahead of him. His sabotaged his efforts when we tried to do it legitimately, and as far as I'm concerned got what he deserved when Jimmy returned the favor, albeit in a much darker, and more deceptive way.

No matter the bond of brotherly love, his need to constantly stay ahead, beat and otherwise have one over on Jimmy is as much a reason that Jimmy doesn't stay on the narrow as anything.

In Chuck's mind, Jimmy will never get "ahead" of him, because to Chuck what matters is respect of the legal community... and to Jimmy, he thought it was respect of his brother but since he knows he can't have that, now it's going to be money. Lots and lots of money.

[nol]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I did not expect the Mike twist. Which is why it's a twist.

So who left the note? The gunseller? That does not seem at all like his style. Gus Fring? If his drug empire is running at this point, he might be trailing the Salamancas, which would mean that he would be in a position to notice Mike. Others? Mike has not had a lot of social interactions in Better Call Saul, so I am leaning toward it being someone from Breaking Bad.

100 percent Fring. We know from Breaking Bad how badly he wants to be the one pulling the trigger on Hector (which of course is the one area in which he was not completely fastidious and calculating and ends up being his undoing). Also I'm quite sure it's his handwriting - I don't remember which specific BB episode had a sample of his writing, but I do remember it being fairly neat and having that all caps script.

[cartman]

Off to a solid start with the first two episodes of the season. Kim has gone all in on Jimmy helping her get Mesa Verde, and Chuck's long game seems to be working. And Mike is doing his Mike stuff that finally gets Gus Fring back in the picture.

[PilotMan]

Man, I still love this show. It took me forever to figure out what the hell mike was doing, but I have to say the a-ha moment was worth it. I really love these characters and this world. Still my favorite show at the moment.

[albionmoonlight]

Knowing how Gus dies, the scene where he protects Hector is powerful.

And the dialogue-free Mike scenes are my favorite thing on tv right now.

[PilotMan]

Was the style of the sequence where Kim is getting ready in the morning not done beautifully?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Was the style of the sequence where Kim is getting ready in the morning not done beautifully?

I could think of a way it could have been even more beautiful.

Giggity!

[panerd]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Knowing how Gus dies, the scene where he protects Hector is powerful.

And the dialogue-free Mike scenes are my favorite thing on tv right now.

Mike is usually my favorite part of the show but yesterday I was dying for the Saul story line to move along and be shown more. I love both but this Saul one is pretty solid.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by panerd

Mike is usually my favorite part of the show but yesterday I was dying for the Saul story line to move along and be shown more. I love both but this Saul one is pretty solid.

I agree. Its amazing that, as we're getting to see Gus introduced to Mike in a series of beautifully crafted scenes worthy of both iconic character, they've escalated things with Jimmy in such a way that the drama with Jimmy absolutely matches everything they're doing with Gus and Mike.

[Butter]

Now that was a fucking episode.

Watching it again because I'm too keyed up to sleep.

Wow.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Butter

Now that was a fucking episode.

Watching it again because I'm too keyed up to sleep.

Wow.

Concur. That was awesome.

[tarcone]

I just started watching the series. On episode 2.

Good stuff already.

[cartman]

So did the HHM guy make a mistake when he mentioned Chuck having schizophrenia? If so, that is a massive slip up. Chuck on the stand was probably my second favorite scene of the series so far, behind Mike's confessional to his daughter-in-law.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by cartman

So did the HHM guy make a mistake when he mentioned Chuck having schizophrenia? If so, that is a massive slip up. Chuck on the stand was probably my second favorite scene of the series so far, behind Mike's confessional to his daughter-in-law.

SPOILERS

No, he says "I submit that Mr. McGill's mental illness is a non-issue. If he were schizophrenic it wouldn't take away from the fact that the defendant..." before Chuck cuts him off.

He was comparing Chuck's electro-magnetic sensitivity to a mental illness like schizophrenia, while Chuck has always maintained it is a real, physical ailment. Thus the outburst of "I AM NOT CRAZY!" Even though with the battery in his pocket for over 90 minutes without him feeling it, it proved that his ailment is mental. That's when he lost it.

So yes he made a mistake in calling Chuck's ailment a mental illness, but he was not implying that Chuck had schizophrenia.

[panerd]

So what was the big win at the end of the last episode that Kim and Jimmy were so happy about? Did she trick Chuck into testifying?

[Butter]

They needed Chuck to still have a copy of the tape, so it would be played during the hearing, and they could introduce Chuck's mental state as the reason behind the confrontation. If there is no tape, there is just breaking and entering and assault and Jimmy's word vs. Chuck's about the why.

[cthomer5000]

I really love this show. So quality week in, week out.

[albionmoonlight]

There's a Better Call Saul Insider podcast. I listened to one episode, and it's really good. I don't think I will listen to more because it gets very inside baseball about the filming, and I don't want to get so into that that I stop being able to just enjoy the show as a viewer. But some folks here might want to check it out.

[albionmoonlight]

When Jimmy met with Mike two episodes ago and got the pictures and asked him about "the other thing," Mike handed him a piece of paper.

Was that Chuck's ex's address? Or is there another shoe left to drop there?

[Butter]

I think the assumption was it was her contact info, yes.

[PilotMan]

Seeing Huell again, in his much healthier state was awesome. Hearing Kim say "Saul Goodman?" in the preview for next week was awesome. I love the angles and way that Gillgan shoots his scenes. There's so much art to it and the emotion that it all conveys. Still the best show on TV.

We have to be getting closer to the end of Kim and Jimmy too and how all that's going to play out.

[Butter]

What I'm thinking is that Jimmy (Saul) is going to do some crazy publicity-stunt crap, and that Mesa Verde is going to insist that Kim dissociate herself from Saul.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Seeing Huell again, in his much healthier state was awesome.

If you're an actor who played a rando on Breaking Bad and Vince Gilligan hasn't called you yet, you've got to be kind of bummed.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

We have to be getting closer to the end of Kim and Jimmy too and how all that's going to play out.

It really is incredible knowing that it basically has to end poorly... but really having no idea HOW that is going to happen at this point.

[Critch]

Not sure if guesses about what's going to happen count as spoilers, but here goes:

Spoiler

Jimmy has mentioned the lantern on a pile of Wall Street Journals in Chucks house a couple of times.
The last episode of the season is titled "Lantern"
Chuck ends the season going out in a blaze of glory.

[panerd]

Not as much going on in this episode but I like the characters so much that I still found it enjoyable. We also found out the time frame (2001) with Howard's 35 year old bottle of 1966 scotch. Not sure how much it helps as we never had a clear time on Breaking Bad but if we say the show operated in real time than that would be 2008 so this is about 7 years prior.

Maybe we knew the year already but if so I hadn't caught it until last night.

[Jas_lov]

And we saw Lydia. I take it Nacho stepping on the pill is how Hector will be confined to the wheel chair? The one story line I don't like is Mike and his daughter in law and I hope they wrap up the Chuck story this season.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Critch

Not sure if guesses about what's going to happen count as spoilers, but here goes:

Spoiler

Jimmy has mentioned the lantern on a pile of Wall Street Journals in Chucks house a couple of times.
The last episode of the season is titled "Lantern"
Chuck ends the season going out in a blaze of glory.

That seems plausible.

Spoiler

Chuck's death would do a lot to help the conversion from Jimmy to Saul. It will really mess Jimmy up.

If he dies, it will be a shame, because I think that Chuck is one of the best written and best acted villains I've ever seen. It may be necessary for the story, but I'll just miss watching his character.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by panerd

Not as much going on in this episode but I like the characters so much that I still found it enjoyable. We also found out the time frame (2001) with Howard's 35 year old bottle of 1966 scotch. Not sure how much it helps as we never had a clear time on Breaking Bad but if we say the show operated in real time than that would be 2008 so this is about 7 years prior.

Maybe we knew the year already but if so I hadn't caught it until last night.

No, it is still 2003.
The 2001 thing is what I thought originally, but I learned some things browsing BCS Reddit this morning.
The whiskey was aged 35 years (in the barrel, not bottling, you stop counting when it is bottled). So, it would have been bottled in 2001, but that does not mean it is 2001. Howard was just saving it for a special occasion.
Also, the car Jimmy rode off in has tags from April 2003.
Court hearing had a sign from 2003.
In BB, Hank stated Tuco stabbed someone in 2003. That was in BCS last night.
Also, someone pointed out the columbia shuttle thing from 2003 was in the word search game from another episode.

[Radii]

This show is absolutely on fire this season. Another great episode.

[lungs]

Oof. Storm took out my satellite while DVRing last night's episode. I'm using this thread to complain about it while also scrolling down and not reading any posts. I suppose I could stream it online, but my internet sucks. Saturday at 3:30 AM is my next opportunity to record it :/

[PackerFanatic]

I got overly giddy when Gus was walking through the laundry and then got into the car with Lydia. I can definitely see how this show can easily stand on its own but it is just that much better having the full BB background.

[albionmoonlight]

Kim

Spoiler

[Butter]

Yeah, I don't know why I didn't see that coming but I was wondering what they were leading up to with that lengthy shot towards the end.

This whole episode pretty much flipped everyone's expectations on its head, I think.

Spoiler

Jimmy and Chuck both working together against HHM? Jimmy getting the settlement is the only way that HHM can get the cash to buy Chuck out. Looks like there will be a brotherly reunion in the finale.

Kim now needs Jimmy to support her, because with her medical issue, she is really hitting the only barrier to her success supporting Mesa Verde and Gatwood... and that is her unavailability. When you are a one-woman show, you don't get to take vacation or medical leave.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Butter

Yeah, I don't know why I didn't see that coming but I was wondering what they were leading up to with that lengthy shot towards the end.

This whole episode pretty much flipped everyone's expectations on its head, I think.

Spoiler

Jimmy and Chuck both working together against HHM? Jimmy getting the settlement is the only way that HHM can get the cash to buy Chuck out. Looks like there will be a brotherly reunion in the finale.

Kim now needs Jimmy to support her, because with her medical issue, she is really hitting the only barrier to her success supporting Mesa Verde and Gatwood... and that is her unavailability. When you are a one-woman show, you don't get to take vacation or medical leave.

When Kim said something like "tell me all about it when I get back," I knew it was coming, which made that last scene excruciating. It was so well filmed.

[JPhillips]

How do binders fly open in a front end collision?

But, yeah, this has been a very good season. I loved the ominous line about Fring from Lydia.