WW LXVII - Heroes (GAME OVER! HEROES WIN!)

[The Jackal]

I know, I ruined the posts total a while ago when I was browsing the forums and saw something about hockey.

And I don't know what to tell you, I'm a hero, I still think it would be cool to be Sylar, but it'd be pretty stupid for that player to do anything but lay low.

[Neon_Chaos]

Vote count (Not sure if It's 100% accurate):

Render - claphamsa, GreyRoofoo
The Jackal - hoopsguy, nfg
alan t - pass
mauboy - SnDvls
No Lynch - alan t, mauboy, st.cronin, ntn, lathum, schmidty, daddytorgo, ardent

While I think that No Lynch is probably going to be my vote for today, hoops' argument does make sense. However, considering we don't know yet how many night kills we're going to have (hoops expressed concern about maybe having 2 kills during the night, since Sylar seems to be like a vigilante/serial killer-type of role), I'm going to have to vote for a No Lynch.

Vote No Lynch

[RendeR]

Not sure where I'm getting votes from =)

VOTE NO LYNCH

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Like I said, if its a good possibility of normally being a wolf role if all things are equal, its probably worth the discussion. I do think discussion of who has that role could be bad though. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I mean here then.

I agree that we should definitely not get into any specifics of who can do what. I guess my point was that we should likely take heinz' statement not to try and correlate abilities on the show with character names, etc. Any corroboration or non-corroboration on that score helps the bad guys IMO. I do appreciate you clearing up my original question though, it struck me really weird when I first saw it.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Well, I'm on board with hoops's idea on pushing the vote a little more. With a 50/50 between RendeR and The Jackal, I'm going with the guy who wasn't a wolf in the last game.

Er, wait, they were both a wolf in the last game. Drat.

OK, I guess I'm going with the guy who was the "lone wolf" in the last game.

VOTE The Jackal

[path12]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I'm really out of the loop, though. It's like I've been gone since November or something.

Who are you again?

[path12]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Those are the reasons to go against the trend. Just making sure that someone is actually representing them in the thread before we all go down the no lynch path.

Not knowing the show, I tend to agree with this. However, I am always in favor of the no lynch path.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, hard to know what to make of things at this point, with so many powers out there and multiple factions. On the quick tonight, as I worked late and have to go to bed, so no time for heavy analysis. Maybe tomorrow night.

I am a hero, and my power is also similar to what I have seen from my character in the show (although I only watched the first few episodes). So I would be against revealing.

Given the uncertainties right now, I think I have to go along with the No Lynch crowd.

VOTE NO LYNCH

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Player A = 7 votes
Player B = 7 votes
No Lynch = 8 votes

That works just fine for me.

No Lynch = 20 votes
Player A = 2 votes
Player B = 1 vote

That doesn't work for me at all, in terms of getting value from the day.

Pretty much what I was thinking. I tend to think a no vote would be the right way to go here but I don't think a runaway vote this early on helps the village (unless we're 100% sure that it's on a wolf). It gives the wolves a completely free pass.

That being said I don't know where to put my vote. In order to build up some sort of decent alternative it would have to be for Jackal or RendeR. With 11 no lynch votes it seems a bit futile now, as it's unlikely anyone will want to move from no lynch because it might make them look wolfish. However Jackal has the second most votes, and I believe people talk about "keeping things honest" or some such at this stage so I will

Vote Jackal

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by path12

I'll tell you right now that I won't be talking about what happens with my power, which is not for use during the day I might add.

I might be misunderstanding something (or getting bogged down in semantics) but aren't all powers for use during the day?

So you're saying that there are no circumstances under which you would reveal what your powers are? What if there's six people left and it's you against someone else, and the feeling is that you're both likely candidates for the lynch. Won't it strengthen your case if you can reveal what you power is and provide a detailed list of what you have done with that power, allowing the possibility of someone else corroborating what you say?

Obviously there are roles this won't apply to, if there's someone with a one-shot power for example. But in general I can't see why you would be opposed to keeping a track of what you have been doing. All I'm saying, I guess, is that I'm not going to be sympathetic to someone claiming a role as an alibi but unable to detail exactly what the did with their powers.

[Chief Rum]

There is no "night" per say, so not sure what path was getting at there.

Nice to see you playing, Narcizo.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So just from reading a little bit about the show, Sylar steals the powers of those he kill?

Do you think that power is in the game? And if so would that be an argument FOR name revealing?

A way this could be implemented would be for Sylar to have access to all the powers of the people he has killed but only be able to use one of the powers per day. I think this possibility is a strong reason for not revealing powers. And as there seems to be some correlation between powers and names then I think it means that we shouldn't reveal names either.

I guess an extension of this is the idea that there could be two night kills per, urm, day. This seems logical to me - it's difficult to imagine that Sylar doesn't have a kill ability. Lathum said that this seems a bit myuch but ways of balancing that would be a) the wolves having limited kill abilities, b) Sylar only being to kill every other day or something c) there not being many wolves or d) the villagers having enough powers to counter-balance this. It seems likely that Sylar will be able to kill a wolf as well so it isn't solely detrimental to the villager cause to have Sylar having a kill ability.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Nice to see you playing, Narcizo.

Thanks.

Currently it's nice to be playing again.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Thanks.

Currently it's nice to be playing again.

I'm about to head to bed, so short and sweet, but I am guessing if we both live long enough, we'll see each other around late. Hope we're on the same side.

Neon Chaos might be around, too. The late night WW crew lives on!

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm about to head to bed, so short and sweet, but I am guessing if we both live long enough, we'll see each other around late. Hope we're on the same side.

Neon Chaos might be around, too. The late night WW crew lives on!

I hear you.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think the Parkmans (or at least the father) could also be a duke type.. a Mass hallucination that caused people to vote a certain way. I think Eden probably seems the most likely duke though to me.

I'm curious to what people think of the characters such as HRG or Ando.. what type of powers do you think they might have in this game?

I'd have thought Micah is the most obvious Duke role - as fixing votes is pretty much what he does in the first series. Speculting even more wildly I'd see HRG as possibly having some sort of one-shot persuader/converter power.

And path - speculating might give ideas to the wolves but they already have the ability to brainstorm, so it seems more likely that we'll hit on something that another villager hasn't thought of rather than something the wolves haven't thought of. Do you think in a standard game it's beneficial to the wolves or to the villagers if there is a list of the roles and powers in the game? I'd say the villagers.

Anyway, hypothesing about this stuff (and, in all probability, being wrong), is fun.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Just to be clear -- I said the WAY that Alan is arguing seems fishy. I'll talk more about what I mean when I get a chance -- I'm making dinner now, and might not get to do that until tomorrow -- we'll see if work lets me do that before deadline. I'm fine with no lynch, however.

Translation: Based on my last game, I possibly am an easy person to get lynched for absolutely no reason. So by tossing out vague innuendos, he's testing the water to see who might bite. Because I felt a certain way about an issue and stated my case, surely I must have some evil plot behind it, despite a majority of others feeling the same way as I do right now on the issue.

[claphamsa]

im gonna be in training all day, and im not sure what kinda connection Ill have. Ill try to check in at lunch

[Poli]

I appear to be all set for a snow in day, however my wife's been wigging out as of late about my computer/internet usage. I'll be in and out, but rarely on for a significant amount of time.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I appear to be all set for a snow in day, however my wife's been wigging out as of late about my computer/internet usage. I'll be in and out, but rarely on for a significant amount of time.

Have I mentioned that it's nice to see you back in the FOFC?

[Barkeep49]

I am, for the time, going to assume that there are duplicate powers in the game.

Going off of this, this would suggest a few things based on the discussion we've had today.

A double kill becomes more likely because there is more than one bodyguard around to stop it.

It argues in favor of No Lynch, because we'll be getting more information than normal.

However, it seems too unbalancing to have two full seers or bodyguards running around unless the Company has a higher wolf % than we'd expect. And upping the number of wolves brings its own balance headaches, in terms of their abilities to start controlling lynches with more players around. So I am going to suggest that there are duplicate powers but that they are limited in some way. So perhaps there is a Sylar BG and Seer and a Company BG and Seer. That supposition would, however, still suggest no lynch to be a tenable option. I'm just not sure that it would be ENOUGH information to suggest no lynch.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I am, for the time, going to assume that there are duplicate powers in the game.

Going off of this, this would suggest a few things based on the discussion we've had today.

A double kill becomes more likely because there is more than one bodyguard around to stop it.

It argues in favor of No Lynch, because we'll be getting more information than normal.

However, it seems too unbalancing to have two full seers or bodyguards running around unless the Company has a higher wolf % than we'd expect. And upping the number of wolves brings its own balance headaches, in terms of their abilities to start controlling lynches with more players around. So I am going to suggest that there are duplicate powers but that they are limited in some way. So perhaps there is a Sylar BG and Seer and a Company BG and Seer. That supposition would, however, still suggest no lynch to be a tenable option. I'm just not sure that it would be ENOUGH information to suggest no lynch.

I think without having the vote count in front of me that there is a pretty sizable lead for no lynch at this point that I don't see that changing before deadline. I think what will be interesting to see is what type of information we find out tonight. With everyone having roles, what will they be able to bring to the table tommorrow?

I'm assuming also that Hoops might be right that there could be more night kill opportunities than normal here, but the key word that I chose to use is opportunities. I'm guessing with everyone having powers.. some people's powers will be able to assist them at night attacks.. say a Nathan Petrelli would be able to "fly away" from his attack and avoid death, etc.

Just another reason why i felt strongly that revealing names was a bad idea yesterday. It tells you which people to go for and which to avoid if you are a wolf. I'm thinking tonight alot of people will have information one way or another about things, but the key will be how much of that is actually useful for determining what to do in day 2.

[Narcizo]

Would you be surprised to see a bodyguard or a seer in an eleven-man game? I don't see how you can discount two bodyguards in a 20+ game. Except I suppose for the possibility that the bodyguards (if organised) could work together to give someone blanket protection. That's not to argue that any roles won't have limitations (or power-ups) that are different from the standard rules. There's lots of different ways to limit a power.

Anyroad. I have to go home now (thanks to a snow storm this morning). I may be back before deadline. Then again I might not. Doesn't really look like it's going to make much difference to the vote anyway.

[DaddyTorgo]

in general i'm not sure how i'm going to handle this 1pm deadline thing. i gotta do work at work, but will try to be around (depending on my workload and the particular day's schedule).

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Translation: Based on my last game, I possibly am an easy person to get lynched for absolutely no reason. So by tossing out vague innuendos, he's testing the water to see who might bite. Because I felt a certain way about an issue and stated my case, surely I must have some evil plot behind it, despite a majority of others feeling the same way as I do right now on the issue.

I honestly don't know what happened in your last game -- I was killed Night 2, and didn't follow along after that. Although I'll admit some bias -- there have been two games recently where we've both been wolves, one where I was on your side, and one where I was against you, so you are kind of naturally on my radar lately. I'll talk more about what I was reading into your post after I get a donut. But I have to say, you're being pretty defensive over a lone Day 1 vote (perhaps for the same reasons, I'm naturally on your radar as well).

[Lathum]

do we have a vote count?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Would you be surprised to see a bodyguard or a seer in an eleven-man game? I don't see how you can discount two bodyguards in a 20+ game. Except I suppose for the possibility that the bodyguards (if organised) could work together to give someone blanket protection. That's not to argue that any roles won't have limitations (or power-ups) that are different from the standard rules. There's lots of different ways to limit a power.

Anyroad. I have to go home now (thanks to a snow storm this morning). I may be back before deadline. Then again I might not. Doesn't really look like it's going to make much difference to the vote anyway.

I agree with this, about the possibility of more than one of some roles. Especially if there's some randomness involved with their success.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Lathum

do we have a vote count?

Posting that shortly.

[Neon_Chaos]

From my last count, I believe we have 19 or 20 votes in. I'll try to make one when I get home (should be at the house 30 min. before deadline)

[Neon_Chaos]

dola

doh. seems like jeheinz is going to go through that anyway.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I honestly don't know what happened in your last game -- I was killed Night 2, and didn't follow along after that. Although I'll admit some bias -- there have been two games recently where we've both been wolves, one where I was on your side, and one where I was against you, so you are kind of naturally on my radar lately. I'll talk more about what I was reading into your post after I get a donut. But I have to say, you're being pretty defensive over a lone Day 1 vote (perhaps for the same reasons, I'm naturally on your radar as well).

I wouldn't say I'm getting overly defensive. I'm pretty much just responding with how I feel. Path disagreed with something he thought i said, and we cleared up that misunderstanding. Hoopsguy seems to disagree with several of my points, and we've left it at that. I'm responding to you because of how you are trying to dangle my name out. Instead of saying why you disagree with what I am saying, you just say something along the lines of "he just feels off".

Agree with me, or disagree with me, but here are my points:

1) The majority of people whom have commented have stated that their power is similar to what they would expect based on what they know of their character from the show.
2) Because of #1, saying our roles in this game has the risk of pretty openly revealing also what our powers are for everyont to know.
3) Sylar based on what he does in the show, likely wants to know who has certain specific roles because those are the most "juicy" for him to target
4) Jeheinz has said that you can't equate what side someone is on in the show with what side they are on in this game. ie: Hiro or Claire could be bad here.
5) Revealing roles doesn't tell us what side anyone is on because of #4, and it puts some people at risk because of #2, thus I feel that revealing roles at this point is not a good move.
6) In games where everyone has roles or abilities or powers as is the case in this game, it seems to lead to the villagers having more information than normal games each day to go on. Typically in games when you argue whether No lynch is a viable solution or not, the response question is "What would be different day 2 from day 1?" In this game because of the extra roles, it could be quite alot. Enough to at least warrant a no lynch on day 1 to see how things pan out.


Now some people disagree with #5, some disagree with #6, both is fine since that is different people's opinions. They don't have to agree with me. You on the other hand aren't contributing anythign other than "I don't like how Alan is talking". Thats my issue with you right now, and if this was a situation that I felt a lynch was worthwhile, i would be pushing for you to be lynched.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I wouldn't say I'm getting overly defensive. I'm pretty much just responding with how I feel. Path disagreed with something he thought i said, and we cleared up that misunderstanding. Hoopsguy seems to disagree with several of my points, and we've left it at that. I'm responding to you because of how you are trying to dangle my name out. Instead of saying why you disagree with what I am saying, you just say something along the lines of "he just feels off".

Agree with me, or disagree with me, but here are my points:

1) The majority of people whom have commented have stated that their power is similar to what they would expect based on what they know of their character from the show.
2) Because of #1, saying our roles in this game has the risk of pretty openly revealing also what our powers are for everyont to know.
3) Sylar based on what he does in the show, likely wants to know who has certain specific roles because those are the most "juicy" for him to target
4) Jeheinz has said that you can't equate what side someone is on in the show with what side they are on in this game. ie: Hiro or Claire could be bad here.
5) Revealing roles doesn't tell us what side anyone is on because of #4, and it puts some people at risk because of #2, thus I feel that revealing roles at this point is not a good move.
6) In games where everyone has roles or abilities or powers as is the case in this game, it seems to lead to the villagers having more information than normal games each day to go on. Typically in games when you argue whether No lynch is a viable solution or not, the response question is "What would be different day 2 from day 1?" In this game because of the extra roles, it could be quite alot. Enough to at least warrant a no lynch on day 1 to see how things pan out.


Now some people disagree with #5, some disagree with #6, both is fine since that is different people's opinions. They don't have to agree with me. You on the other hand aren't contributing anythign other than "I don't like how Alan is talking". Thats my issue with you right now, and if this was a situation that I felt a lynch was worthwhile, i would be pushing for you to be lynched.

Guess I should add onto this list my additional thought that I had this morning:

7) With all of the additional powers, I wouldn't be suprised to see some roles have the ability to "escape" a night kill such as Nathan flying away.. or to live through a night kill such as Claire or Adam Monroe... So to combat that, I agree with Hoops thought that there might be multiple night kills.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You didn't mention the heros with powers that are a bit more impressive than say Nathan's ability. Without knowing what for instance Sylar's goals are this game... I'm guessing it has something to do with hunting down a hero and killing them/taking their power.

by listing out who is whom, you pretty much open the door for Sylar to say, "Gee I don't want to target Nathan, I'll go after Claire instead".

Considering what Neon mentioned is probably likely in effort to keep a mass reveal from wrecking the game, what does everyone revealing their names do other than map things out for Sylar and/or the Company to know who to target?

Where is the positive in that? My thoughts are in a game with this many "powers" You will have people who can perhaps spy on others (invisibility?), read people's minds, etc.. and figure out when people are lying or not being honest. This just doesn't seem like a great game to open our doors wide open for the bad guys to know exactly whom to go after.

Alan, here's the post that pinged my radar. Sylar's goals are clearly stated in the rules, but you use doubt about Sylar's goals in your argument to avoid reveals.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Alan, here's the post that pinged my radar. Sylar's goals are clearly stated in the rules, but you use doubt about Sylar's goals in your argument to avoid reveals.

Did you even read my post?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Did you even read my post?

Dola, if you read my post, clearly the word "goals" is in reference to how he handles his night kills.. what does he do.. try to outright just kill someone? Target someone to gain a power? How does he use that power once he gains it? Can he choose each night to use a specific power he has gained in his next night kill? Can he use multiple powers? etc...

I don't even think I referenced game winning conditions once in that post... Now if it is spelled out somewhere what Sylar actually does with his powers every night, please point me to it. Otherwise I'll assume you didn't really read my post and are just scrambling in your attempt to try to cast a shadow on my attempts to provide discussion.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I can try to give my thoughts on that along with the character list jeheinz provided.. but it would just be my speculation.. I think it would be fun conversation, but perhaps not overly useful. Perhaps if someone else who is less familiar with the show than me has a role that they can spy on others , this would be helpful for.. so I'll work on that so others can comment on it.

Alan, here was another post that pinged my radar, although reading it today, it might just be that I can't make any sense of it. Perhaps if someone else who is less familiar with the show than you has a role that I can spy on others, this would be helpful for?

I'm not bringing this up to try to accuse you -- just to figure out what you were saying.

[jeheinz72]

Vote Count

No Lynch (12): Alan T (167), mauboy (169), Cronin (172), NTNDeacon (174), Lathum (175), Schmidty (176), DaddyTorgo (182), Ardent Enthusiast (186), Jackal (197), NeonChaos (202), RendeR (203), Chief Rum (208)
The Jackal (3): hoopsguy (198), nfg22 (199), Mr. Wednesday (205)
RendeR (2): claphamsa (90), Greyroofoo (94)
Alan T (1): Passacaglia (146)
Mauboy1 (1): SnDvls (200)

Not Voting (4): path12, Narcizo, oliegirl, Barkeep49

Let me know if anything is incorrect (but note these aren't "official" counts in regard that things could be changing in the background)

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Did you even read my post?

Weren't you the person who called sarcasm "dumb" a few games back?

[Lathum]

Unvote NoLynch
Vote TheJackyl

I'm not really concerned with the jackyl getting lynched but some preassure may be good

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Alan, here was another post that pinged my radar, although reading it today, it might just be that I can't make any sense of it. Perhaps if someone else who is less familiar with the show than you has a role that I can spy on others, this would be helpful for?

I'm not bringing this up to try to accuse you -- just to figure out what you were saying.

If someone has the role of the invisible man, or DL or some role that allows them to "spy" on another person for the night, they could then possibly see what someone is doing.. But without knowing the theme.. they would see an action and not necessarily know if the action is one you would expect from a good role or a bad role.

My point was by listing out the possible actions we could expect to see, that player then could witness the action of another, and try to discern on their own if they feel it is something you would expect of a specific role and then have more information on whether or not to reveal something. It would be ashame for someone to reveal themselves only for clarification of a role that appears likely harmless or good in nature.

[Barkeep49]

I'm afraid I'm going to get busy and won't be able to get a vote in. Weighing all the options, it does just seem likely that there's going to be extra information tomorrow that might be able to help us, so I'm going to have to go with

Vote No Lynch

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Weren't you the person who called sarcasm "dumb" a few games back?

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I get burnt out in WW games often because I feel people as a group tend to just gloss over my posts or not really pay attention to what I say.. It was a reoccuring "joke" in a recent game when people would come up with -ideas- that I had previously given.

I honestly am wondering if you really read my post or just glossed through it. Because your comment about that post doesn't even match to what I said in that post. It was like you were just throwing out arguements for the sake of trying to trash me. If it was simply you just glossed over my post.. then well that is not a wolfish thing, its just damn frustrating to me that people keep doing it to me.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I get burnt out in WW games often because I feel people as a group tend to just gloss over my posts or not really pay attention to what I say.. It was a reoccuring "joke" in a recent game when people would come up with -ideas- that I had previously given.

I honestly am wondering if you really read my post or just glossed through it. Because your comment about that post doesn't even match to what I said in that post. It was like you were just throwing out arguements for the sake of trying to trash me. If it was simply you just glossed over my post.. then well that is not a wolfish thing, its just damn frustrating to me that people keep doing it to me.

Well, good luck figuring it out!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If someone has the role of the invisible man, or DL or some role that allows them to "spy" on another person for the night, they could then possibly see what someone is doing.. But without knowing the theme.. they would see an action and not necessarily know if the action is one you would expect from a good role or a bad role.

My point was by listing out the possible actions we could expect to see, that player then could witness the action of another, and try to discern on their own if they feel it is something you would expect of a specific role and then have more information on whether or not to reveal something. It would be ashame for someone to reveal themselves only for clarification of a role that appears likely harmless or good in nature.

I hear ya AlanT

everyone is ignoring my ideas also

[Passacaglia]

Good idea, Lathum.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Good idea, Lathum.

thanks!!

[Alan T]

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Not Voting (4): path12, Narcizo, oliegirl, Barkeep49

Let me know if anything is incorrect (but note these aren't "official" counts in regard that things could be changing in the background)

I voted jackal back a while ago. It was at the bottom of the post and I didn't caps lock it so you might have missed it. Post #209.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I voted jackal back a while ago. It was at the bottom of the post and I didn't caps lock it so you might have missed it. Post #209.

My bad, totally missed it. Updating soon.

[jeheinz72]

Vote Count

No Lynch (12): Alan T (167), mauboy (169), Cronin (172), NTNDeacon (174), Schmidty (176), DaddyTorgo (182), Ardent Enthusiast (186), Jackal (197), NeonChaos (202), RendeR (203), Chief Rum (208), Barkeep49 (241)
The Jackal (5): hoopsguy (198), nfg22 (199), Mr. Wednesday (205), Narcizo (209), Lathum (239)
RendeR (2): claphamsa (90), Greyroofoo (94)
Alan T (1): Passacaglia (146)
Mauboy1 (1): SnDvls (200)

Not Voting (2): path12, oliegirl

Let me know if anything is incorrect (but note these aren't "official" counts in regard that things could be changing in the background)