WW-Pokemon Day Three Deadline 4/15 10 PM

[path12]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Is WIFOM purely a phrase that came into existence over at BGG? I don't even understand where that idiom comes from (other than the inference that you play the hand you're dealt, I guess).

It refers to The Princess Bride, specifically the scene with the two glasses of wine, one of which has been poisoned and which one do you think it is.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, I don't get it. What is the strategic value for a villager to do this?

Is WIFOM purely a phrase that came into existence over at BGG? I don't even understand where that idiom comes from (other than the inference that you play the hand you're dealt, I guess).

I was confused as well, so I Googled WIFOM and first link explained it. 2nd link was also helpful.

[The Jackal]

Inconceivable!

[Grover]

Just a heads up to everyone. I will not be very active, if at all between 5PM EST and the deadline. I've got a bowling league tonight.

Hopefully that doesn't gain me any votes this time around!

[Autumn]

Gut move

unvote britrock88
vote cheekimonk

[EagleFan]

unvote font

vote Vaimes

Time to consolidate and see what we get.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Raven

I was confused as well, so I Googled WIFOM and first link explained it. 2nd link was also helpful.

Okay, so having done this, I still don't know the value of this play, especially in a situation where most of us are not very familiar with Vaimes.

If there is even one wolf who played with Vaimes at BGG or wherever else he plays, then this move is high risk, where you're judging whether or not that person has the experience and knowledge to make a correct read on Vaimes and how he would play this strategy. But chances are the wolves won't have experience with Vaimes, and they will just kill him to eliminate the possibility.

If he is the Martyr, chances are, he just dies tonight and that's a bad move for the village. If he is not the Martyr, then the real Martyr either does or does not protect him. If the Martyr protects him, the Martyr dies and we lose a real role, with no allegiance established for Vaimes. If the Martyr doesn't protect him, then we lose Vaimes, a simple villager.

That last is the best result, as we have no way of stopping a night kill and the wolves will only attack villagers. I could see a small advantage to that last scenario, but not big enough to make this play.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, so having done this, I still don't know the value of this play, especially in a situation where most of us are not very familiar with Vaimes.

If there is even one wolf who played with Vaimes at BGG or wherever else he plays, then this move is high risk, where you're judging whether or not that person has the experience and knowledge to make a correct read on Vaimes and how he would play this strategy. But chances are the wolves won't have experience with Vaimes, and they will just kill him to eliminate the possibility.

If he is the Martyr, chances are, he just dies tonight and that's a bad move for the village. If he is not the Martyr, then the real Martyr either does or does not protect him. If the Martyr protects him, the Martyr dies and we lose a real role, with no allegiance established for Vaimes. If the Martyr doesn't protect him, then we lose Vaimes, a simple villager.

That last is the best result, as we have no way of stopping a night kill and the wolves will only attack villagers. I could see a small advantage to that last scenario, but not big enough to make this play.

That drove me crazy at BGG; I think it was my first game on day one when I started reading through the thread and it seemed like almost everyone but me already claimed roles. I got votes because I didn't and because I thought it wasn't helpful for people to be doing so. Then got more votes the next day when I posted vote analysis. It's a whole different game over there.

Granted, I liked that they don't go entirely on voting history but have plenty of conversation which leads to getting better reads on people, though a mix of the two approaches works well. I just don't like the mass reveals (especially when many revealing as seers then would post "results" the next day; that can only help the wolves narrow down who is lying).

[fontisian]

I disapprove of the roleclaiming strategy, except as a fun, but meaningless thing. Still, the only one here's who knows Vaimes well enough to know what he's doing is me, so it's not a big deal.

On that note, I'm telling you guys that Vaimes is my strongest townread, and I'm damn good at reading him, so maybe you shouldn't be trying to lynch him?

[timmae]

Brit is an active posting machine. He mentions he would be in and out but he is really paying attention it seems.

unvote autumn
Vote britrock88

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by fontisian

I disapprove of the roleclaiming strategy, except as a fun, but meaningless thing. Still, the only one here's who knows Vaimes well enough to know what he's doing is me, so it's not a big deal.

On that note, I'm telling you guys that Vaimes is my strongest townread, and I'm damn good at reading him, so maybe you shouldn't be trying to lynch him?

Assuming we accept your take on your ability to read Vaimes, we would still then need to consider if we trust you. Sorry, font, I have absolutely no reason to trust you at the moment.

[fontisian]

Yeah, but if Vaimes and I were both scum, aligning ourselves together this hard would be stupid?

[Zinto]

Vote Count as of Post 212

Britrock 4-JAG(59), Narcizo(192), Path(193), Timmae(210)
Cheekimonk 3-Shoveler(63), The Jackal(160), Autumn(205)
Vaimes 3- Britrock(115), Cheekimonk(179), EagleFan(206)
EagleFan 2-Fontisian(61), Vaimes(71)
Autumn 1- Raven(171)
The Jackal 1-Grover(104)

[Raven]

brit's posts are usually short but insightful. If he's town, I think he's a valuable asset to keep around. font openly supporting Vaimes tells me they aren't likely aligned, especially since they are (currently) voting together. Still confused on the Vaimes claim, but seems everyone is at this point. No real feel for cheeki, but going with the lesser of the evils for now.

unvote Autumn
vote cheeki

[Raven]

Zinto your count is off. brit has 4 votes in the list, but total says 3

[Zinto]

Originally Posted by Raven

Zinto your count is off. brit has 4 votes in the list, but total says 3

I don't know what you are talking about

[path12]

Originally Posted by Zinto

I don't know what you are talking about

Being able to edit is one of the best things about running a game.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Yeah, but if Vaimes and I were both scum, aligning ourselves together this hard would be stupid?

This scenario can happen without you both being scum. It basically comes back to that I can't trust you, nor can I trust him. So I trust neither of you and refuse to draw conclusions on what either of you say.

[Vaimes]

Oh right, this game has much shorter Days.

You know, reading through the thread, I don't think it's very clear what the Martyr actually does. It could be a Doctor or it could be a Bodyguard. Who knows! Only I do (maybe).

(Fake)claiming roles on D1 is just a fun thing I sometimes like to do. Some of you are taking it too seriously (or you're Wolves looking for an easy mislynch -- "he didn't die in the Night? scum! lynch! grah!").

If I'm a Vanilla Town, then I get shot and the real Martyr gets to protect(?) more important players, i.e. the Cop. If I'm actually the Martyr, the scumteam probably thinks I'm a bluffing VT and will leave me alive. If I were a Wolf, I would not (fake)claim on D1 and draw all this attention to myself, because? What's the point? Intentionally playing unnecessary wine games as scum is just more work. I'm just town having a bit of fun.

I have townreads on fontisian, JAG, Narcizo, and Jackal. Lean scum on Raven and EagleFan.

[Zinto]

The Martyr role was not purposely vague(oops). The Martyr can protect someone each night but will be the one who is nightkilled if the protection hits the nightkill target.

[cheekimonk]

Ok, just catching up and, ugh, I'm more confused than before about Vaimes, but on D1 I think that earns no vote. It's self-preservation at the moment so it's necessary, but this also feels more like a D1 vote to me (not much to go on but not reading village at all):

unvote Vaimes
vote britrock88

[Vaimes]

There you have it, folks. A Bodyguard.

[Vaimes]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

unvote font

vote Vaimes

Time to consolidate and see what we get.

This is fake.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Vaimes

If I'm a Vanilla Town, then I get shot and the real Martyr gets to protect(?) more important players, i.e. the Cop. If I'm actually the Martyr, the scumteam probably thinks I'm a bluffing VT and will leave me alive. If I were a Wolf, I would not (fake)claim on D1 and draw all this attention to myself, because? What's the point? Intentionally playing unnecessary wine games as scum is just more work. I'm just town having a bit of fun.

You see, the issue here is that neither you nor font seem to see that, at least here, some of us more experienced players are looking second and third level or even further. The ole recursive reasoning.

"No way would I align with myself with Vaimes if we were scum!!"

"No way would I fake claim when I was a wolf!!"

These are just words. They mean nothing. We completely believe either of you could attempt these sorts of things because, frankly, we would consider doing these things and we have even seen these things. Many of us have been playing WW here for 7-8 years now. We would totally take a stab at that.

And if I can do it, or I think EF can or The Jackal or anyone else with significant experience in this game, I will certainly consider the possibility you would do this, Vaimes (or you and font).

So for that reason, you get no trust making these statements at all, just like font gets no credit from me for her statements.

That doesn't mean I am voting either one of you guys, but I don't believe this strategy helps the village. It confuses the village in an effort to confuse the wolves, and the negative of the former, IMO, far outweighs the benefit of the latter.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Vaimes

There you have it, folks. A Bodyguard.

Not quite. A BG usually survives as a protector.

I actually thought the role was pretty well spelled out.

[Chief Rum]

I would like to vote EF for meta reasons because of his weird seer move last game, but I would then be on the same guy is Vaimes and font, so I am a little hesitant to do that.

I don't have a feel between cheekimonk and britrock, but I believe that close votes give us more information in the long run, so I am going to move this closer.

VOKE CHEEKIMONK

[Chief Rum]

I will be out until past the deadline in about 10 minutes.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by path12

I got a weird vibe from Brit's first posts as well

That's unfortunate!

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by path12

I think Brit knows the move Vaimes made and pretended he didn't.

I mean, I know what it is in the sense of playing WW. But are you implying that I might have had foreknowledge that Vaimes would make a WIFOM martyr claim?

(I don't really want to feed into WIFOM itself... but I think Path and I can talk about this, at least.)

[fontisian]

I really don't understand why people aren't voting for EF.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by timmae

Brit is an active posting machine.

Make what you will of my activity today. But @me for getting this comment as someone who can never break top-half posting volume at BGG.

[Vaimes]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Not quite. A BG usually survives as a protector.

I actually thought the role was pretty well spelled out.

I thought BG dying or losing their healing abilities is what differentiated it from a Doctor.

[path12]

Originally Posted by britrock88

I mean, I know what it is in the sense of playing WW. But are you implying that I might have had foreknowledge that Vaimes would make a WIFOM martyr claim?

(I don't really want to feed into WIFOM itself... but I think Path and I can talk about this, at least.)

No, I'm not saying there was any foreknowledge. I'm leaving work soon and will check when I get back home, but my recollection was that you seemed surprised about the move in general and I know you've must have seen things like this before.

Frankly, I kind of expected more argument against voting you after making that vote, so I'm not entirely as comfortable about it as I was.

[britrock88]

We're way ahead of deadline (>3.5 hours), but I'm going to go ahead and claim VANILLA VILLAGER so that the village can decide either to string me up (which I would prefer to losing a GS and disprefer to lynching a wolf, of course) or explore alternatives.

[fontisian]

I have this weird idea called "Cheeki and brit are both town, stop lynching them."

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by path12

No, I'm not saying there was any foreknowledge. I'm leaving work soon and will check when I get back home, but my recollection was that you seemed surprised about the move in general and I know you've must have seen things like this before.

Frankly, I kind of expected more argument against voting you after making that vote, so I'm not entirely as comfortable about it as I was.

Yeah, it's just a relatively rare technique here. Getting people to talk substantively on the first day is a challenge, but something like this is just the kind of thing that gives people something to talk about, for better or worse.

[britrock88]

I seriously thought my vote was already on Cheeki.

unvote Vaimes
vote Cheekimonk

I read Vaimes' WIFOM reveal as neutral-to-good. Cheeki, meanwhile, has grasped at a few different lines of thought, it seems.

[britrock88]

Also interested by CR's continued thoughts on Vaimes' WIFOM reveal. Reading those as neutral-to-good, as well.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Vaimes

I thought BG dying or losing their healing abilities is what differentiated it from a Doctor.

I'm not sure what a standard Doctor is at BGG.

Here, a BG is usually a player who can protect either another player from the nightkill. The basic, common variation is that he will survive that protection and keep the player alive, but will not know who attacked. He can protect himself, but he can't protect the same player two nights in a row.

That's the standard and other versions of the BG usually vary off of that. Can protect the same player every night. Can't protect self. Will die if the player he is protecting is attacked (that's pretty much the Martyr role). Will stop an attack AND see who attacked. Etc. Etc.

[path12]

I went back and didn't see what I thought I saw earlier.

UNVOTE BRITROCK88

[path12]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Also interested by CR's continued thoughts on Vaimes' WIFOM reveal. Reading those as neutral-to-good, as well.

Chief is one of those people I can never get a sense of.

[Vaimes]

My experience with the two is

Doctor > can protect one person per Night; cannot self-protect; may protect the same person multiple Nights in a row

Bodyguard > can protect one person per Night; will die or lose ability if target is shot

[Vaimes]

You know, as long as my claim potentially doesn't out the other/real(?) roles, there really is no reason for other villagers to feel confused. Just let the scumteam either shoot me or leave me alone.

I'm not expecting free townreads based on my claim. If anything, I expected there to be disagreements, although some of them are pretty bad, the primary offender being: "if you don't get shot we're going to lynch you!" because that is such a Wolfy thing to do.

[Vaimes]

I feel so weird using Wolf instead of scum.

halp

[JAG]

I'm caught up. I don't get the confusion on Vaimes' "claim" at all. It was clear form the first post when he said 'town should ignore this' that it wasn't a serious claim (at least, to me), to say nothing of the strategy of making such a real claim at this point in the game.

[cheekimonk]

I've already claimed vanilla village. And this is definitely the most confusing D1 I've been part of.

[cheekimonk]

Wait...all of this shit and I'm up 2-3 votes? If I'm the least offensive choice then fine...at least I'm vanilla, but no way in hell am I the most suspicious townie today.

[Zinto]

Vote Count as of Post 247

Cheekimonk 6-Shoveler(63), The Jackal(160), Autumn(205), Raven(214),
Chief Rum(226), Britrock(237)
Britrock 4-JAG(59), Narcizo(192), Timmae(210), Cheekimonk(221)
EagleFan 2-Fontisian(61), Vaimes(71)
The Jackal 1-Grover(104)
Vaimes 1- EagleFan(206)

[Zinto]

Two hours until deadline reminder

Night actions are due at 10 too

[JAG]

No huge wolfy reads from me. I see font's case on EF but I think that's his usual style of play. The only thing that stood out a bit to me was Shoveler saying he'd be around all day but didn't really have a lot to say even as conversations were raging. The comment about feeling better about Narc after he posts analysis, which makes no sense as he does that no matter his alliegence.