Yay, It's the 2010 NBA Playoffs thread!

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by sooner333

On the travel, the local (OKC) announcers said it likely wasn't a travel because the ball was touched while he was in the air, so he had a free dribble. It is ridiculous that he got the call reversed due to his pouting though--right or wrong.

I agree. Right or wrong, the refs should never reverse their initial call

[TroyF]

pretty much how I thought this would play out. Melo gives a damn. Ty gives a damn but is rusty. Kenyon gives a damn but is hurt and rusty.

Nobody else does.

Jazz got one foul on a flop, but other than that, it's just the Nuggets sucking ass.

[TroyF]

as I say that, Melo was hammered repeatedly, then spins and gets an offensive foul. Reggie Miller "thats' a ridiculous call, I'm sorry" Well, Reggie, that's happened repeatedly in the series, what do you expect. Three fouls on Melo, two on clear flops from the Jazz.

edit: the Jazz are absolutely not winning this game because of the foul calls. Me saying the refs are idiots on Melo calls, is not me saying the Jazz are up because of that.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lebron is deeper into his career than Jordan. NBA isn't about age, it's about minutes on the body. Most players breakdown at the same number of minutes.

What evidence do you have that its about minutes on the body? All the statistical studies I've read link performance strictly to age and not total minutes played.

[Big Fo]

I always thought it was a little bit of both. Kevin Garnett being 33 but playing in the NBA straight out of high school might make him age quicker than 33 year olds who went to college for four years, but that wouldn't necessarily make him as worn down as a 37 year old who went to college for four years. But that is just more of a feeling than anything based on studying statistics.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

What evidence do you have that its about minutes on the body? All the statistical studies I've read link performance strictly to age and not total minutes played.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ros/index.html

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

What evidence do you have that its about minutes on the body? All the statistical studies I've read link performance strictly to age and not total minutes played.

There have been a lot of studies done by stat geeks. You can find a few on RealGM and some other stat friendly boards. The belief is that around the 36,000-40,000 minute mark in a players career, they see a dropoff in production. Big men tend to have more minutes in them.

Now there aren't a ton of players who are able to accumulate those minutes over a career, but the one's that do seem to fall into that range. Jordan, Garnett, Payton, Drexler, Isiah, Reggie, and so on. You are even seeing Kobe's game decline as he has reached that point.

Now Lebron is at 25,000 minutes in his career. There have just not been many MVP type seasons out of any player with over 40,000 minutes. And only a handful of players have even made it to 50,000 minutes regardless of how good they were (most were not that good anymore and all were big men). So Lebron's career is essentially half over, and perhaps even more if you consider he'll see a dropoff like everyone else at the 40,000 minute mark.

For a great example of how age isn't as big a factor as minutes, just look at Steve Nash. He actually doesn't have that many minutes for how old he is which is probably why he is still an elite player. If you figure he can give you 2 more quality years, he goes out at that 40,000 minute mark too.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the numbers show that Lebron would have to shatter every mold that has been out there and do something that no other player in NBA history has even remotely come close to.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There have been a lot of studies done by stat geeks. You can find a few on RealGM and some other stat friendly boards. The belief is that around the 36,000-40,000 minute mark in a players career, they see a dropoff in production. Big men tend to have more minutes in them.

Now there aren't a ton of players who are able to accumulate those minutes over a career, but the one's that do seem to fall into that range. Jordan, Garnett, Payton, Drexler, Isiah, Reggie, and so on. You are even seeing Kobe's game decline as he has reached that point.

Now Lebron is at 25,000 minutes in his career. There have just not been many MVP type seasons out of any player with over 40,000 minutes. And only a handful of players have even made it to 50,000 minutes regardless of how good they were (most were not that good anymore and all were big men). So Lebron's career is essentially half over, and perhaps even more if you consider he'll see a dropoff like everyone else at the 40,000 minute mark.

For a great example of how age isn't as big a factor as minutes, just look at Steve Nash. He actually doesn't have that many minutes for how old he is which is probably why he is still an elite player. If you figure he can give you 2 more quality years, he goes out at that 40,000 minute mark too.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the numbers show that Lebron would have to shatter every mold that has been out there and do something that no other player in NBA history has even remotely come close to.

Fair enough; the stuff I've read by David Berri focuses more on age (and in fact suggests peaks at a young age; ~24-25), but he may just be compounding age and minutes played into one variable.

I do object to your suggestion that LeBron's career is more than half over; in the same way that he will have less than ideal performance after 40k minutes, he certainly had less than ideal performance for the first 10-15k minutes. I'd certainly object to saying that his career is more than half-over in the sense that he has fewer good years left than good years already completed.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Fair enough; the stuff I've read by David Berri focuses more on age (and in fact suggests peaks at a young age; ~24-25), but he may just be compounding age and minutes played into one variable.

I do object to your suggestion that LeBron's career is more than half over; in the same way that he will have less than ideal performance after 40k minutes, he certainly had less than ideal performance for the first 10-15k minutes. I'd certainly object to saying that his career is more than half-over in the sense that he has fewer good years left than good years already completed.

Maybe he will be at his peak at over 40k. All I'm saying is that no other NBA player in history has done it. And if you contend his career is not half over (from an elite player perspective), then you are arguing that he will reach over 50k minutes. No player has even come remotely close to playing at that high a level at over that mark.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by TroyF

as I say that, Melo was hammered repeatedly, then spins and gets an offensive foul. Reggie Miller "thats' a ridiculous call, I'm sorry" Well, Reggie, that's happened repeatedly in the series, what do you expect. Three fouls on Melo, two on clear flops from the Jazz.

edit: the Jazz are absolutely not winning this game because of the foul calls. Me saying the refs are idiots on Melo calls, is not me saying the Jazz are up because of that.

I say Melo is the idiot in a way. I´m sorry, but a scorer as talented as him should be able to adjust his game here. He has been whistled on that and similar moves all series and done nothing to adjust to that and steps into that trap by the Jazz time and time again.
I mean, he´s also got only 12 assists to 18 TOs which should tell you sth about his lack of controll and play-awareness going to the basket.

Utah guided him toward help defense excessively ever since game 1 and he´s not found a way to avoid this or use it to the teams advantage.

Sure Billups/Smith combining to go 13/43 from 3 doesn´t help ...

Obviously there´s been a few bad foul calls, but come on now... I know you are saying that the Jazz win because of them and not because of the Refs, but i still wanted to point that out further. The Nuggets are unable to a) move the ball and b) hit shots from outside, forcing the Nuggets to take more risks going to the basket and giving the Jazz an easy time keying on it. Since they don´t have much shot blocking, that happens with charges.
22/17 , 12/14 and 13/18 for A/TO since game 1 for Denver.

On the other end the Nuggets look like a HS team facing a certain offense for the first time. Seriously, the Jazz pass the crap out of the ball, getting people the ball in their sweet spot or right at the basket.

Fesenko has been great stepping in at center for the Jazz, impressive defense, never would have thought he´d surpass Koufos so clearly (i still think Koufos will break out with another team, but still) .

Stupid loss by the Mavericks who stopped executing in the 3rd quarter. Why not bring in Beaubois in that sort of situation ?

Lebron James 37/12/11 ... Noah with another impressive performance, 21/20.
As impressive as Rose is, at the end of the day you have 103 points on 98 shots for him so far while shooting a good percentage (46%) .

Ummm, for the minutes-discussion : There´s also not been many players with as perfect a basketball-body as James i´d say ... Plus the data is rather sketchy considering the first few of HS--->Pro players only now enters their twilight years.
Propably all those other MVP candidates also hit that ominous 40K mark at a much higher age than James likely will, that would be a factor as well, wouldn´t it ?
(i think that like most of the time in life, it´s a combination of age, minutes and a few other factors like playing style and number and type of injuries)
Grant Hill is one of those players with whome you can make a point for the minutes-discussion i guess.


oh, and this was just wrong :

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, LeBron totally has a player as good as Scottie Pippen on the same team, so it makes sense to compare them in terms of titles won.

[vex]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yeah, LeBron totally has a player as good as Scottie Pippen on the same team, so it makes sense to compare them in terms of titles won.

Lebron and David Lee will be unstoppable.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yeah, LeBron totally has a player as good as Scottie Pippen on the same team, so it makes sense to compare them in terms of titles won.

Lebron is a much talented physical specimen than Jordan ever was. He played in a much more watered down league early in his career. He also plays in a league that heavily favors his style of play that doesn't necessitate having a low post scorer.

Jordan won 6 titles in an era that was not built for his or Scottie's style of play. Lebron hasn't won one in an era that is catered toward his style of play. I'm not saying Lebron is bad, I'm just saying he should be the most dominant player ever. He should be more dominant than Jordan. But he's more focused on building his little empire, throwing parties, and choreographing dances before games.

I mean when have you ever read about Larry Bird or Magic Johnson doing shit like this.


LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers make a production out of their NBA pregame rituals cleveland.com

[Chief Rum]

So despite the all world stats, you're saying LeBron should be playing even better? That there's another level of play he isn't reaching because he's not focused enough on basketball?

Got it. And silly me, I'm here thinking it's the fact the rest of the Cavs keep sucking when their opportunity comes up.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So despite the all world stats, you're saying LeBron should be playing even better? That there's another level of play he isn't reaching because he's not focused enough on basketball?

Got it. And silly me, I'm here thinking it's the fact the rest of the Cavs keep sucking when their opportunity comes up.

Yes, he is the most talented physical specimen to ever play the game. He is playing in a league that has rules catered to his style. He probably should have two more trips to the Finals on his resume than he currently has.

[stevew]

Larry Hughes and Dwight Gooden say hai!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yes, he is the most talented physical specimen to ever play the game. He is playing in a league that has rules catered to his style. He probably should have two more trips to the Finals on his resume than he currently has.

Sorry, you're just wrong. I don't see a lack of effort out there on LeBron's part. I don't think he's leaving another 5-10 points, 4-5 boards and 2-3 assists out there to be had every game, at least not if he's playing within the team game. It's already been shown that to win, one player alone can't do it, even LeBron. See Kobe circa 2004-2006.

LeBron's doing what he can. The Cavs aren't failing because of him or because he's not giving 100%. They're failing because Jamison and Williams and the rest of the Cavs crew continue to not step up when needed. Whether that is because of talent issues (front office fault) or system/coaching/player focus issues (Mike Brown's fault), it's not because of LeBron that the Cavs haven't won more.

[RainMaker]

I think he is leaving numbers out there on the court. He should be even more dominant than he is considering his physical tools and league rules. Like I said, I think he should have two more Finals trips on his resume. You can blame his teammates and coach all you want, but there are examples of players essentially carrying their team to titles (Jordan '98 and Wade '06). And remember, for as bad as those teammates were, they managed to be one of the best defensive teams in the league each year. There was talent on it, just not on the offensive side of the ball.

But this year will be the true test. There is no team that can matchup to the Cavs talent-wise this season. Although I'm sure someone will have an excuse lined up if he falls up short.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think he is leaving numbers out there on the court. He should be even more dominant than he is considering his physical tools and league rules. Like I said, I think he should have two more Finals trips on his resume. You can blame his teammates and coach all you want, but there are examples of players essentially carrying their team to titles (Jordan '98 and Wade '06). And remember, for as bad as those teammates were, they managed to be one of the best defensive teams in the league each year. There was talent on it, just not on the offensive side of the ball.

But this year will be the true test. There is no team that can matchup to the Cavs talent-wise this season. Although I'm sure someone will have an excuse lined up if he falls up short.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The only numbers he's leaving out there, IMO, are the ones he could get by ignoring the team game, which, as I noted, is not the way to win championships. No one player is winning a championship in today's NBA by himself. And your examples are poor ones. Jordan had Pippen & Rodman in 1998; Wade had a motivated Shaq (and were playing a chickenbleep team in the Mavs, too). Were they the primary movers on those teams? Yes. Would they have won without those others stepping up and playing their games? No.

Talent is on both sides of the ball. If the team doesn't score, that's a lack of talent. No matter how good they are defensively. Maybe they're the best talent defensively, so what if they can't score. The Lakers maybe weren't as talented defensively as the Cavs last year, or the Celtics as talented there two years ago, but those teams were much better overall offensively, as you say. Not like talent starts and stops at the defensive end.

I'm not saying LeBron isn't at least somewhat too blame for the shortcomings of the Cavs. He's very good, but he's not perfect. He still needs to try to use his physical skills more efficiently on both ends of the floor, especially when it comes to shot selection. But I don't think the variation in what he's doing and what he would be doing if operating at absolute top notch efficiency as a percentage is different than any other superstar. These same efficiency deficits plagued Kobe last year, Pierce the year before that, Ginobli before that. That didn't stop those players from winning championships.

What has kept LeBron from more titles is not Lebron is not Jordan or Kobe, but Gooden was not Gasol/Garnett, and Williams was not Odom/Allen. And perhaps most importantly, Brown is not Jackson or Rivers or Popovich.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The only numbers he's leaving out there, IMO, are the ones he could get by ignoring the team game, which, as I noted, is not the way to win championships. No one player is winning a championship in today's NBA by himself. And your examples are poor ones. Jordan had Pippen & Rodman in 1998; Wade had a motivated Shaq (and were playing a chickenbleep team in the Mavs, too). Were they the primary movers on those teams? Yes. Would they have won without those others stepping up and playing their games? No.

Rodman was not good in 1998 and had a lower PER than Delonte West, Anderson Varejao and was basically tied with last year's version of Ben Wallace. Pippen also saw a decline in his abilities and was plagued by horrible back problems that only allowed him to play in half the regular season games. There is revisionist history on the part of NBA fans when it comes to those Bulls teams, but the 1998 team wasn't that good. Jordan basically carried them in all their tough playoff games.

Shaq wasn't really that good in the 2006 playoffs and the rest of the team outside of an aging Mourning was trash.

And Lebron had every right to play out his rookie contract and look for a better option if he felt Cleveland wasn't going to give him any support. He chose not to. If winning was his driving force, he had every right to make sure he was in an organization that met those needs.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by whomario

I say Melo is the idiot in a way. I´m sorry, but a scorer as talented as him should be able to adjust his game here. He has been whistled on that and similar moves all series and done nothing to adjust to that and steps into that trap by the Jazz time and time again.
I mean, he´s also got only 12 assists to 18 TOs which should tell you sth about his lack of controll and play-awareness going to the basket.

Utah guided him toward help defense excessively ever since game 1 and he´s not found a way to avoid this or use it to the teams advantage.

Sure Billups/Smith combining to go 13/43 from 3 doesn´t help ...

Obviously there´s been a few bad foul calls, but come on now... I know you are saying that the Jazz win because of them and not because of the Refs, but i still wanted to point that out further. The Nuggets are unable to a) move the ball and b) hit shots from outside, forcing the Nuggets to take more risks going to the basket and giving the Jazz an easy time keying on it. Since they don´t have much shot blocking, that happens with charges.
22/17 , 12/14 and 13/18 for A/TO since game 1 for Denver.

No, there hasn't been a few bad calls whomario, there has been a ton of them. And Melo has adjusted, he can't play for his teammates. He scored 39 last night. 11 boards. 4 steals. I know, I know. . . 9 turnovers. Well, 3 of those were off of Utah flops. (trust me, for the love of God, trust me, they will NOT get those flops on the Lakers or Kobe) 3 other turnovers came because guys simply dropped the ball going through the lane. (Nene, I'm looking at you, you freakin pansy) And then all of the missed shots. JR can't hit, Billups can't hit, Afflalo can't hit. . . it's simply wiped us out. The simple fact of the matter whomario, is what is a foul for Carmelo Anthony should be a foul for Boozer or Milsap or DWilliams. And in this series, it isn't. You can debate the importance (the Nuggets would be losing anyway), but I think it's a little over the top to blame the player the refs are screwing over. (FWIW, If Lebron were getting these types of foul calls, the national media would be having a field day)

The three things I feared heading into the series are all a reality:

1) Kenyon wouldn't be healthy. He isn't. Milsap and Boozer have torn Denver apart this series. Look at the regular season and you'll see a different story. Kenyon being hurt destroys this team. I think he's the second most important player on the team.

2) Lawson is rusty. He sat for over a month. He destroyed Utah in the regular season. Utah isn't doing anything special on him now. He's just not in game shape. That's as a direct result of our idiot coach playing AC down the stretch this season.

3) No George Karl. If anyone ever gives you a debate about how important a coach is in the NBA, simply look at the Nuggets this year. They were humming along and even dealing with Kenyon's injury until GK went out. Adrian Dantley has ZERO clue about how to work a ref, how to make adjustments from game to game, how to make an adjustment during the course of the game, when to call a set play vs. when to let them go. . .

GK's loss is evident in everything the Nuggets are doing wrong. Don't get me wrong, I don't think GK is as good as Phil Jackson or Pop or Sloan even. But going from him to Dantley is like going from a top 10 coach to a bottom 5 coach. It's a complete and total disaster.

[TroyF]

Regarding the Lebron debate. . .

The only reason Cleveland is a title contender is Lebron James. Put Kobe on the Cavs and I'm not sure they get out of the second round. The talent around James has been upgraded, but when Lebron is only so/so, the Cavs have little chance most of the time.

My question on Cleveland isn't Lebron. Lebron is going to get his points, get his calls, and make his impact felt. My question on Cleveland is the other 11 guys who suit up. Last year Kobe was the key to the Lakers, but he didn't have to go off every game. When Kobe goes 11-31 in a game, they turn to Pau for a bigger role and you are still screwed. When Lebron goes 11-31? The Cavs can put their heads between their legs and kiss their asses good bye.

The issue the frightens me for the Cavs during this Bulls series is how easy the Bulls are getting open shots with passes around the perimeter. Even yesterday in the big win, the Bulls put up 98 points on them and should have put up 110. (wide open misses galore, only 4 long range bombs)

I do agree that you wouldn't have seen Jordan, Bird, Magic or any of their ilk concentrating on pre game dance routines or acting like jack asses on the bench. (in the case of Jordan and Bird, they'd trash talk on the court and destroy you so when they got to the bench they could just rest) That said, it isn't impacting Bron's play. He's the best player in the league. He may get his title this year. . . but to do it, he's going to need some help. Right now, I'm not convinced he has it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Regarding the Lebron debate. . .

The only reason Cleveland is a title contender is Lebron James. Put Kobe on the Cavs and I'm not sure they get out of the second round. The talent around James has been upgraded, but when Lebron is only so/so, the Cavs have little chance most of the time.

My question on Cleveland isn't Lebron. Lebron is going to get his points, get his calls, and make his impact felt. My question on Cleveland is the other 11 guys who suit up. Last year Kobe was the key to the Lakers, but he didn't have to go off every game. When Kobe goes 11-31 in a game, they turn to Pau for a bigger role and you are still screwed. When Lebron goes 11-31? The Cavs can put their heads between their legs and kiss their asses good bye.

Well Lebron is a superior player to Kobe. I don't think that's the issue at all. I will add that Kobe isn't the same player he was. He has his big games, but he's not completely dominating a game like Lebron can. Lebron is in a class by himself followed by the likes of Dirk, Carmelo, Wade, Williams, and Kobe.

This is sort of the argument I'm making though. We shouldn't be comparing Lebron to the supporting cast of Kobe and Wade because Lebron is superior to them in so many ways. Lebron shouldn't need the supporting cast that Kobe, Wade, and even Jordan had.

Originally Posted by TroyF

The issue the frightens me for the Cavs during this Bulls series is how easy the Bulls are getting open shots with passes around the perimeter. Even yesterday in the big win, the Bulls put up 98 points on them and should have put up 110. (wide open misses galore, only 4 long range bombs)

The Bulls offense isn't efficient yet they looked rather efficient for a good portion of the series. I just wonder what happens when the Cavs play a team that can hit those open shots. The Bulls don't have a good 3-point shooter on the roster while a team like Orlando has a few. Another concern for me if I'm Cleveland is how they got manhandled on the boards. Noah is a great rebounder, but so is Howard.

I think the one thing the Cavs have going for them is newfound flexibility with the addition of Jamison while the Magic lost theirs with the addition of Carter.

Originally Posted by TroyF

I do agree that you wouldn't have seen Jordan, Bird, Magic or any of their ilk concentrating on pre game dance routines or acting like jack asses on the bench. (in the case of Jordan and Bird, they'd trash talk on the court and destroy you so when they got to the bench they could just rest) That said, it isn't impacting Bron's play. He's the best player in the league. He may get his title this year. . . but to do it, he's going to need some help. Right now, I'm not convinced he has it.

That is if you feel this is the best Lebron James can do. I personally think he should be destroying the league even moreso considering his physical tools and the way the rules are catered toward his style of play. I can't fathom Jordan in this era.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I can't fathom Jordan in this era.

These kind of comments elude me. Its not like Jordan didn't get his and 4-5 others people's share of ridiculous calls. IMO he was pampered by the refs way more than LeBron. You just could not breathe near Jordan in the 4th quarter without being called for a foul. At times, it seemed like being on the court with him was enough for a foul call.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Samdari

These kind of comments elude me. Its not like Jordan didn't get his and 4-5 others people's share of ridiculous calls. IMO he was pampered by the refs way more than LeBron. You just could not breathe near Jordan in the 4th quarter without being called for a foul. At times, it seemed like being on the court with him was enough for a foul call.

I'm not talking about getting calls, I'm talking about the actual rules of the game.

Hand-checking became illegal just as Jordan stopped becoming a slasher. Then came the illegal forearm, then touching in the backcourt and frontcourt, then re-routing players off the ball. And finally, the defensive 3-second rule was added which didn't allow defenses to just camp a 7-footer under the basket.

Perhaps the most important change is how the league handles hard fouls. Najera got tossed immediately last night for a foul that was common in the late 80's-early 90's. Next time they replay a Pistons-Bulls or Knicks-Bulls playoff game from Jordan's era, watch at how Jordan is treated on every drive. Or the old Lakers-Celtics games that featured really hard fouls to anyone who dared shoot inside. In this era, you'd see half a dozen flagrant fouls and ejections every night. You simply can't foul guys hard all night and beat them up.

Now I'm not saying that any of this is bad. In fact, I think all the rule changes have made the league much better. We know have an influx of young guards like Rose, Paul, Rondo, Williams, Jennings, etc that benefit from this and make the games exciting. I'm just saying that if you put Jordan in an era where there was no hand-checking, forearms, re-routing, defensive 3 seconds, or hard fouls every trip to the lane, it would be amazing to see.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And finally, the defensive 3-second rule was added which didn't allow defenses to just camp a 7-footer under the basket.,

That was in the game during all of Jordan's NBA career, it just changed names.

Previous to it being called a defensive 3 second violation, there was an illegal defense rule making zone defenses illegal. The definition of zone defense: spending 3 seconds in the lane without guarding someone. This has been illegal in the NBA since the 50s.

But, I see your point about the others.

[MikeVic]

I don't have a strong opinion about LeBron being not as good as he could be. I think he plays how he needs to in order to still be a team player, and I respect him for that. If he wanted to, he could score over 30 a game and average a triple double. I truly believe that.

However, I think this year he has enough pieces to at least make the finals in the East. If this was the West, then maybe not. But if the Cavs aren't in the finals this year, I'll be kinda disappointed in him.

[TroyF]

RainMaker,

I understand what you are saying, but one guy can't do it alone. Or very rarely has done it alone. Jordan had Pippen. Bird had McHale and Parrish. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Kobe has had Shaq and now Pau.

You are talking about guys who would be considered top 15 players in the game in their primes. Name the top 15 player Lebron has? Jamison? Ancient Shaq? Moe Williams?

The one thing I will agree with is that outside of Kobe, most players don't have that luxury in the league right now. Carmelo clearly doesn't have another top 15 player with him. DWade doesn't. Nor Bosh, Rose, Paul, or DWill. I guess the only guys you could say that about would be Kobe/Pau, Amare/Nash, Duncan/Manu (when Manu is playing like this, he's a top 15 player in the league, he can't sustain it for a full year, but right now he is)

Jordan would be unstoppable in this era. . . but then he would have been unstoppable in any era.

As for your point about the Bulls looking efficient, I'm glad someone else agrees with me. If the Cavs played the same caliber defense against the Magic as they've played the Bulls? They'll be giving up 115 a game. They are giving up wide open shots all over the place, Shaq is being torched on the P&R (like you knew he would) and they aren't even able to control penetration. FWIW, Shaq is a +4 this series. It's going to be fascinating to see if Lebron either:

1) Gets help
2) Goes crazy enough in every game of the Orlando series to get a win
3) Has an average 7 game series.

If it's #3, I honestly think the Celtics could knock Cleveland off.

[RainMaker]

That sort of makes my argument though. No teams besides the Lakers have two top-15 players on their squad. Teams are capable of winning titles without that which wasn't the case a decade or two ago.

The league is diluted from previous eras and has much more parity. Most of the top teams feature one superstar and a couple above-average to good players. Only the Lakers have two top-15 players and they almost cancel that out by having a weak bench and below average PG.

[Big Fo]

Why does the NBA hate Dwight Howard so much? No shitty sock puppet commercials?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Why does the NBA hate Dwight Howard so much? No shitty sock puppet commercials?

I missed the 4th foul so I don't know what happened there but Dwight picked up two stupid inexcusable fouls in the first half. He can't pick up fouls where he is trying to strip point guards in the open floor.

[Big Fo]

The fourth foul is what I'm complaining about. Howard, his teammates, van Gundy, and the announcers were all baffled. Some of his fouls are stupid, one or two per game are just bizarre calls.

Can't wait for it to become even worse when we play the Cavs in the conference finals.

[cartman]

Erick Dampier is fined $35,000 for his comments criticizing the officials.

2010 NBA playoffs: Dallas Mavericks center Erick Dampier fined $35,000 by league for criticizing officiating - ESPN Dallas

I was stunned by this line from the article:

Danny Crawford was the lead official on the crew in that game. The Mavs are 2-16 in playoff games officiated by Crawford during Mark Cuban's tenure as owner.

I believe that Crawford was the ref the other night in the game where Kobe didn't make a single trip to the foul line.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's insane

[Big Fo]

That is a ridiculous stat.

Orlando gets the sweep despite looking lackluster at times, I couldn't believe some people (Bill Simmons among them) predicted it would go seven games. There's time to sort things out since Atlanta - Milwaukee is going to go at least six games. They can't be so dependent on Nelson. I've bitched about how the refs treat Howard and will continue to do so but he has to get over it and make some adjustments too. Scoring under 10 PPG isn't going to cut it in the later rounds.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Orlando gets the sweep despite looking lackluster at times, I couldn't believe some people (Bill Simmons among them) predicted it would go seven games. There's time to sort things out since Atlanta - Milwaukee is going to go at least six games. They can't be so dependent on Nelson. I've bitched about how the refs treat Howard and will continue to do so but he has to get over it and make some adjustments too. Scoring under 10 PPG isn't going to cut it in the later rounds.

Simmons is convinced Vince Carter will lose a series for them at some point. I can't say I completely disagree. Against a team better than Charlotte Howard is a defensive force but still a joke on offense based on what I saw of the series. I understand he had foul problems but the number of times he posted up a smaller guy and would get the ball and just have no intention of trying to score despite being 1 on 1 was just silly. If Nelson had been cold at any point it may well have lasted much longer.

Game 3 really showed where Charlotte is though. The 4th quarter of a close game and Charlotte had no idea what they were doing. They looked like a team full of guys playing in the playoffs for the first time and were awful down the stretch and had no chance. Larry Brown pointed it out in his postgame interviews, Charlotte had Orlando in the bonus very early in the 4th and stopped attacking, settling for bad jumpers every possession, lots of defensive lapses, etc.

We'll see, with Denver imploding and Charlotte gone, time to root for Oklahoma City and Cleveland

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by cartman

I believe that Crawford was the ref the other night in the game where Kobe didn't make a single trip to the foul line.

I cant believe that stat. Kobe whines everytime he is fouled and gets calls reversed!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

That is a ridiculous stat.

I want some vindication as it was a stat I posted last year and everyone told me I was crazy for talking conspiracy with the NBA.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

Simmons is convinced Vince Carter will lose a series for them at some point. I can't say I completely disagree. Against a team better than Charlotte Howard is a defensive force but still a joke on offense based on what I saw of the series. I understand he had foul problems but the number of times he posted up a smaller guy and would get the ball and just have no intention of trying to score despite being 1 on 1 was just silly. If Nelson had been cold at any point it may well have lasted much longer.

I think the Vince Carter stuff is overated considering I don't think Hedo is that great. The difference is though that the Magic created a huge mismatch for the Magic. The Magic don't have that ability to do that this year with Hedo and Lewis. Carter makes them a run-of-the-mill lineup.

[whomario]

How about Milwaukee tying the series ? That´s a pretty great acomplishment right there.
Carlos Delfino, Jennings and Salmons all scoring 20+ on 50+% shooting. Delfino 6-8 from 3 in his first good game of the series (18 total points on 7-25 from the field before game 4).
Ilyasova another very solid game. Highly underrated player and signing/move for the Bucks (letting him go back to Europe after a decent rookie year and 2 years later he´s back as a matured player)

Al Horford with 2 very, very disapointing games on the road here.

Phoenix going up 3-2 with their 3rd blowout win. This series reminds me of LA-Houston last year somewhat ...

Roy really not looking himself, same goes for Batum. Other than that solid games by most Blazers.
For the Suns Frye and Dudley with huge games, 20 and 19 points on a combined 13-21 with 8-14 threes and +- numbers of 32 and 36

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the Vince Carter stuff is overated considering I don't think Hedo is that great. The difference is though that the Magic created a huge mismatch for the Magic. The Magic don't have that ability to do that this year with Hedo and Lewis. Carter makes them a run-of-the-mill lineup.

Vince Carter is a piece of crap and will do something mind-boggling as the playoffs get deeper. Don't get lulled into a sense of security with him.

[TroyF]

ie: Crawford. . .

The leagues reffing is an absolute joke. It's simply pathetic on a lot of levels. Inconsistent, personality based, superstar and team oriented. Stern just lets it go. It's sad. I'll say no more.

As for Orlando, I'm not sure I've ever seen a team so good get so much disrespect. They had the second best offensive efficiency in the league this year. They finished in a tie for first in defensive efficiency. The team they finished in a tie for defensive efficiency? Charlotte. In the four games Orlando's offensive efficiency was the same it was all year, against the #1 defense in the league.

They had 5 guys score in double digits 3 times in the 4 game series. The other game had 4 guys in double digits. This is despite Charlotte making it a slow down series and Orlando not hitting 100 points in a single game.

I like Simmons, but the VC hate goes a little overboard. Charlotte was never going to be able to turn this into a seven game series. And Vince Carter doesn't have to be a superstar for Orlando to win. Hell, Van Gundy could get pissed a Vince, bench him and the Magic would still have a chance to compete.

In their last 26 games (including playoffs), Orlando is 23-3 and has won by double digits 16 times. The Magic/Cavs series should be an epic battle. I've said this before, but I'm still not sure how anyone is going to beat Orlando 4 times in 7 games.

[whomario]

sidenote : "Fear The Dear" has got to be one of the better team-slogans around ever.
The fans in Milwaukee were great those 2 games, Bogut should get some sort of award for that. Of course, a lot has to do with winning games but since he started that squad 6 fan section it felt like all other people in the arena got motivated to be louder/more supportive as well.

Agree that the Magic have been impressive.

As for Charlotte : Can someone explain to me how Tyson Chandler is playing so poor and so little ? Is he still bothered by an injury ?
Why would you give any minutes to Ratliffs expiring contract with 2 other semi-talented 7 footers on the roster (Nazr Mohamed had some good stretches the last couple seasons, hasn´t he ?) in the first place ?

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by whomario

As for Charlotte : Can someone explain to me how Tyson Chandler is playing so poor and so little ? Is he still bothered by an injury ?

Tyson's foot is pretty much ruined. He still has his nights, but he's about done. The media never wanted to mention this when he got traded (twice) because it would have screwed up their "cash-strapped Hornets are dumping salary OMG!!!" narrative.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by whomario

sidenote : "Fear The Dear" has got to be one of the better team-slogans around ever.
The fans in Milwaukee were great those 2 games, Bogut should get some sort of award for that. Of course, a lot has to do with winning games but since he started that squad 6 fan section it felt like all other people in the arena got motivated to be louder/more supportive as well.

Agree that the Magic have been impressive.

As for Charlotte : Can someone explain to me how Tyson Chandler is playing so poor and so little ? Is he still bothered by an injury ?
Why would you give any minutes to Ratliffs expiring contract with 2 other semi-talented 7 footers on the roster (Nazr Mohamed had some good stretches the last couple seasons, hasn´t he ?) in the first place ?

Larry Brown with a strange rotation? Go figure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by whomario

How about Milwaukee tying the series ? That´s a pretty great acomplishment right there

Eh, don't get carried away with the praise.

They're playing the Wizard of Oz All-Stars, a team with no brain, no heart, and no guts. And Dorothy is a better coach than the clueless fuckwit on the Atlanta bench.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by TroyF

ie: Crawford. . .

The leagues reffing is an absolute joke. It's simply pathetic on a lot of levels. Inconsistent, personality based, superstar and team oriented. Stern just lets it go. It's sad. I'll say no more.

As for Orlando, I'm not sure I've ever seen a team so good get so much disrespect. They had the second best offensive efficiency in the league this year. They finished in a tie for first in defensive efficiency. The team they finished in a tie for defensive efficiency? Charlotte. In the four games Orlando's offensive efficiency was the same it was all year, against the #1 defense in the league.

They had 5 guys score in double digits 3 times in the 4 game series. The other game had 4 guys in double digits. This is despite Charlotte making it a slow down series and Orlando not hitting 100 points in a single game.

I like Simmons, but the VC hate goes a little overboard. Charlotte was never going to be able to turn this into a seven game series. And Vince Carter doesn't have to be a superstar for Orlando to win. Hell, Van Gundy could get pissed a Vince, bench him and the Magic would still have a chance to compete.

In their last 26 games (including playoffs), Orlando is 23-3 and has won by double digits 16 times. The Magic/Cavs series should be an epic battle. I've said this before, but I'm still not sure how anyone is going to beat Orlando 4 times in 7 games.

Don't defend Vince Carter. I think he should join the Nuggets next year since you wanna marry him.

[jbergey22]

I'm honestly not sure why the TV announcers are saying this years playoffs have been so wonderful. Most games are a complete route. I dont find anything real exciting about it. At this point the only playoff series that has been exciting IMO is the Lakers/Thunder and to a smaller extent Spurs/Mavs.

Please NBA teams learn how to win a game on the frikin road. Jazz/Nuggets had so much potential until the Nuggets decided to call it a season. Hawks are a joke that have no idea how to win on the road. The Bucks have no business beating the Hawks right now. Its says a lot about the Bucks heart and the Hawks lack of maturity.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Don't defend Vince Carter. I think he should join the Nuggets next year since you wanna marry him.

I'm not defending him. Quite the opposite, I'm saying he doesn't have to be great for them to win. He can be their #4 threat and Orlando is still in good shape.

They now have Nelson to run the offense instead of Turko or Rafer Alsten. Nelson, Lewis, Howard. Then you get to VC, Pietrus, Barnes, Reddick.

If VC had to be the guy, I'd hate Orlando's chances. He doesn't have to be THE guy though, he just has to be A guy. The guy is a jerk, but I think he'll be fine not having to control the show.

As for Denver? Well, we don't have the cap room for VC. Denver needs a shake up in the offseason. I don't think it'll involve getting Vince though. Maybe a trade with Nene or a swap of Kenyon (he'll be an expiring next year) If GK was the coach, I actually wouldn't mind Vince. If GK isn't better next year and we go with Dantley, it doesn't matter who is on the roster. As we won't be title contenders, Vince would quit on us. Orlando can keep him.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I'm honestly not sure why the TV announcers are saying this years playoffs have been so wonderful. Most games are a complete route. I dont find anything real exciting about it. At this point the only playoff series that has been exciting IMO is the Lakers/Thunder and to a smaller extent Spurs/Mavs.

Please NBA teams learn how to win a game on the frikin road. Jazz/Nuggets had so much potential until the Nuggets decided to call it a season. Hawks are a joke that have no idea how to win on the road. The Bucks have no business beating the Hawks right now. Its says a lot about the Bucks heart and the Hawks lack of maturity.

The playoffs have been bad. Boston/Miami, yuk. Orlando/Charlotte. . . sweep, Atlanta/Milwaukee. . . Hawks laying down on the road, Cavs/Bulls. . . Cavs playing like garbage, making Chicago look good

Suns/Blazers. . . who wants to win a blowout?, Nuggets/Jazz. . . Nuggets laying down on the road, Lakers/Thunder. . . Thunder just putting of the inevitable, Spurs/Mavs. . . at least some good games.

Overall, we are 4 games into each series and 6 of the 8 series are all but over. Another series is one most people don't give a damn about (Bucks/Hawks)

That leaves the Lakers/Thunder as the only series worth watching at this point. While I think the Lakers will still win the series, at least the Thunder have a chance. These playoffs suck thus far.

All of that said, two matchups look really good for the next round. Suns/Spurs and Cavs/Celtics look like fun series to watch. (I think whoever plays Utah will crush them. They will not get the flops against the Lakers or Thunder and they'll be facing better defenses which in turn will expose their garbage interior D even more) I think Orlando slaughters the Hawks or Bucks.