NBA Draft Lottery/Offseason Thread 2012

[stevew]

It would be awesome if the lottery was held in 3 years and the pistons pick ended up being 2nd overall. Sort of the inverse Darko/Otis Thorpe Pistons Grizzlies trade from 1997 that came due several years later(2003). Then the LolCats can draft someone who won't pan out.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by britrock88

Except that Ben Gordon has a 13.2M player option for '13/'14, while Maggette's contract is up at the end of this season. Wonder how well-protected the pick is?

Bobcats are rebuilding and don't need the money right now. This allows them to hit the salary floor and Gordon's expiring contract because a nice trade piece after next season.

It's a strategy a lot of rebuilding teams have been using of late. Take someone's bad contract on in return for a draft pick.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lowry is a much better player than Tyreke. And this seems to be a draft with 4 elite prospects and they're drafting 5th. I believe the rumor was also for the 14th and 16th picks which helps them round out their roster on the cheap. Lowry and Cousins is a nice base to work from.

I've heard this is a draft with six elite prospects, and the big falloff is at the 7th pick. I don't care if the 14th and 16th picks are cheap, will they be good? I'd say it's a 3:1 ratio of bad, worthless picks at that range than solid good players.

Lowry is more developed than Tyreke, but Tyreke has the bigger upside and is young. Lowry is ceilinged out. And I say that as Villanova fan who watched Lowry for several years in college and in the NBA. I love the guy, and he's a solid player but he does not have the explosiveness and rare scoring ability that Tyreke has.

Tyreke's a good player who had a natural regression after a solid rookie year. It doesn't help that Sacramento has poor management, poor coaching and no veterans around to help him develop. Trading him and another elite player for a solid, but capped out, player and to mid-level picks does not make that team any better, IMO.

[RainMaker]

I think Tyreke has a chance at getting better, but how much? He's been in the league 3 years now. His jump shot has not improved and he still can't use his left hand. I don't think he's slumped as much as teams have a scouting report on him.

Lowry may have peaked but it's a good peak. He's a top 10 PG in the league right now and would elevate Cousins' game immediately. And while the odds of grabbing a star in the teens is low, they should be able to grab rotation guys if they draft well. Cheap rotation guys are huge for a small market team.

I don't know if it's the right move, I just don't think it's a horrible one. At some point every young team needs to surround their young star with players that can produce right now. The Wizards have had to do that by bringing in Nene and Okafor. Not doing that ultimately could stunt your young star as we've seen with Wall. Cousins is the best player on that team and I don't think it's a bad move to put a solid top 10 PG by his side.

Potential is a dangerous thing and at some point you have to cut ties with it and bring in players who can play. Lowry is a big upgrade and this may be the last year that you can get good value for Tyreke Evans.

[jbergey22]

If Sac-town could ship Keith Smart to Houston in the deal it would be a great trade for them. What a pathetic joke of a coach.

Im not sure which one of his strategies I enjoy the most.

Fouling out Cousins in the early 3rd quarter?
Benching his starters early in the 3rd quarter only to watch the bench bring them back only to have them run out of gas in the 4th because the bench isnt used to playing 20 straight minutes?
Having Isiah Thomas go on a roll for a week straight only to see his minutes in the next four games dropped under 24?
Having the starters all play over 42 minutes so they have nothing left at the end of the 4th quarter?

Must be good for team morale to not know if you will get 6 minutes or 40 minutes on a particular night.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think Tyreke has a chance at getting better, but how much? He's been in the league 3 years now. His jump shot has not improved and he still can't use his left hand. I don't think he's slumped as much as teams have a scouting report on him.

Tyreke is 22 years old and one of those three seasons was a strike-shortened debacle. If he were 25 or 26, you may have a point. But 22? No dice.

Lowry may have peaked but it's a good peak. He's a top 10 PG in the league right now and would elevate Cousins' game immediately. And while the odds of grabbing a star in the teens is low, they should be able to grab rotation guys if they draft well. Cheap rotation guys are huge for a small market team.

You can always get rotation guys in FA with smart signings, look at San Antonio. You can't give up two potential stars for a solid player and two role players, that just makes no sense.

I don't know if it's the right move, I just don't think it's a horrible one. At some point every young team needs to surround their young star with players that can produce right now. The Wizards have had to do that by bringing in Nene and Okafor. Not doing that ultimately could stunt your young star as we've seen with Wall. Cousins is the best player on that team and I don't think it's a bad move to put a solid top 10 PG by his side.

Now we're just arguing semantics. Perhaps there is a fair deal involving Evans, something like Lowry and a lottery pick for him. But the point is that THIS deal would be a bad deal for Sacramento. Oh, and let's see how well that Nene and Okafor deal works out before anointing it as a good move. Lastly, I think there are more questions about Cousins than Tyreke, why would you build around him?

Potential is a dangerous thing and at some point you have to cut ties with it and bring in players who can play. Lowry is a big upgrade and this may be the last year that you can get good value for Tyreke Evans.

Giving up on potential is an even dangerous thing. The ceiling with Lowry is maybe a 5th or 6th seed in the West, but the ceiling with Evans is much higher if the Kings spend wisely in FA.

Again, Tyreke is 22. Unless he suffers a big injury, he'll have equivalent or higher trade value into his mid-twenties.

[Gary Gorski]

Tyreke is nothing more than a volume scorer - if you let him chuck the ball up enough times he'll score, you'll lose, repeat. Sacramento would be wise to move him especially since he doesn't want to play the 3 and Thomas/Thornton is a good scoring backcourt. If I'm Sacto I'm trying to ship Tyreke out for a solid 4 -Evans and the bloated contracts of Salmons and Hayes for Pau works. Make LA throw in a future #1 and draft Barnes (or MKG if he slides to 5) and you've got a nice starting 5, got JT, Garcia and Jimmer off the bench, maybe bring back T-Will and have some cap space still I would think to pick up someone else.

And congrats to Matt Mill...er Joe Dumars. Clearly the resigning of Prince and Jerebko last season along with the prior drafting of Daye (when we could have had Holiday and could have had Blair instead of Jerebko) means that exactly what this team needs is...another small forward. This move signals one of two things - either Dumars has actually gotten worse as a GM (which I don't think is possible) or Gores has decided already after a year of owning the team that things are going to be done on the cheap. Or are we gearing up at another cap clearing move to repeat the last debacle of Gordon/Villanueva? At least we can watch all season to see which will be higher - Pistons wins or combined games missed due to injury/out of shape/DNP-CD between Maggette and CV31.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by bronconick

All lottery next year, top 8 in year 2, top 1 in year 3 and unprotected in year 4.

So, definitely won't see anything until 2014, possibly 2015.

This is a great move for Charlotte. It's nice GMs on crap teams understand that cap space is almost useless in FA (just ask NJ about that - and they have a decent market). All you can do is try to upgrade players, get picks and slowly improve by using cap space via trade. Both Washington and Charlotte seemed to have finally figured this out and both are making better moves this offseason.

The Bill Simmons/John Hollinger/ESPN mantra of hording cap space so that Charlotte can one day sign some mythical great free agent willing to forgo similar offers and play for a 20-win team is ridiculous. Use that space to get incrementally better each year and the following year you have a new set of expirings to deal for slightly better players/picks.

[Daimyo]

Donnie Walsh officially back as the Pacer's president... not sure how I feel about that. He was an amazing GM in his first go around, but it looked like he lost a step when he left before (although I'm not sure any GM could have survived the aftermath of the brawl) and now he's five years older.

He did a great job in NY getting them out of the hole they were in for most of the 2000s, but then signed Stoudemire and traded for Anthony to put them right back in (although Dolan is likely more to blame for that).

[stevew]

The pick acquired by the Bobcats from the Pistons also serves as a hedge against the pick they owe the Bulls.

Those conditions are---
top 12 protected in 2013, top 10 protected in 2014, top 8 protected in 2015, unprotected in 2016

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Tyreke is 22 years old and one of those three seasons was a strike-shortened debacle. If he were 25 or 26, you may have a point. But 22? No dice.

He's still showing no signs of improving. Has not made any improvements over the past couple seasons. Now I know players develop at different rates, but we have also seen guards be able to step in and contribute in their first few years.

But what is the ceiling for him? Top 10 PG? You are getting that with Lowry. I think there is a chance Evans improves, but I don't see him becoming a perennial All-Star or anything. I guess what I see is that there is a chance for him to become as good as Lowry, but becoming an elite PG are really slim.

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

You can always get rotation guys in FA with smart signings, look at San Antonio. You can't give up two potential stars for a solid player and two role players, that just makes no sense.

Not cheap ones though (just look at their signing of Chuck Hayes). The draft is great for adding depth that you control for years at a cheap price. San Antonio has of course been great at taking players off the trash heap and turning them into solid rotation guys, but is Sacramento capable of doing that? San Antonio seems more the exception rather than the rule. I look at how a team like Indiana has built itself as a model for smaller market teams (can even throw Denver in there too). They have a lot of solid rotation guys for cheap and now enough cap room to make a splash on a star.

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Now we're just arguing semantics. Perhaps there is a fair deal involving Evans, something like Lowry and a lottery pick for him. But the point is that THIS deal would be a bad deal for Sacramento. Oh, and let's see how well that Nene and Okafor deal works out before anointing it as a good move. Lastly, I think there are more questions about Cousins than Tyreke, why would you build around him?

Giving up on potential is an even dangerous thing. The ceiling with Lowry is maybe a 5th or 6th seed in the West, but the ceiling with Evans is much higher if the Kings spend wisely in FA.

Again, Tyreke is 22. Unless he suffers a big injury, he'll have equivalent or higher trade value into his mid-twenties.

Potential is also dangerous too. It's what gets Tyrus Thomas a big contract and chosen instead of Lamarcus Aldrdige. And my point with Nene and Okafor is that if you have a young star, they can't develop with a bunch of unpolished players by their side always. At some point Washington had to surround Wall with real NBA players and not "potential" to see if he can be a star in the league. I feel the same with Cousins. At some point Sacramento has to put good players around him and see if he can be a star.

Like I said, I think you can make a case for it being a good trade. I'm definitely not as high as you are on Evans and I think you are undervaluing how good Lowry has become. There is a pretty big gap between the two.

[Groundhog]

Tyreke has been banged up, but I still don't know if he's a SG or a PG. He is not a great spot up shooter, needs the ball to be effective, and takes a lot of bad shots. I don't see him as a #1 scoring option on a good team, and I don't think his skill set makes him a good choice as your #2 scoring option. I'd rather have Lowry on my roster with his contract than Tyreke with a max-ish multiple-year deal.

[FF]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

And congrats to Matt Mill...er Joe Dumars. Clearly the resigning of Prince and Jerebko last season along with the prior drafting of Daye (when we could have had Holiday and could have had Blair instead of Jerebko) means that exactly what this team needs is...another small forward. This move signals one of two things - either Dumars has actually gotten worse as a GM (which I don't think is possible) or Gores has decided already after a year of owning the team that things are going to be done on the cheap. Or are we gearing up at another cap clearing move to repeat the last debacle of Gordon/Villanueva? At least we can watch all season to see which will be higher - Pistons wins or combined games missed due to injury/out of shape/DNP-CD between Maggette and CV31.

why do i get the feeling that you'd be the type that would complain about any trade that joe d would make?

we cut a year off of ben gordons contract and charlie v can be amnestied this off season, what more could you ask for from this roster without trading stuckey, knight, or monroe?

and to complain about an energy guy like jerebko who makes 4.5m is only showing your bias. why dont you go ahead and tell me who the back up 3 would be anyways? daye? the same guy you just bitched about us drafting? IMO this move allows the pistons to take BPA which is more than likely a 2 or 4 anyways

[RainMaker]

But why did Detroit need to clean salary? It's not like they are some big free agent destination nor are there guys chomping at the bit to play there. Just let Gordon's contract play out. That's a potentially valuable 1st round pick.

[stevew]

Cavs considering taking Waiters at 4? Please god no..just take TRob if you can't get MKG or Beal. There are worse things in the world than having a few extra bigs that can play.

[RainMaker]

Also the Bulls should have been all over the Gordon deal and made a better offer. But same old same old as long as Reinsdorf owns that team. Big market revenues with small market mindset.

[stevew]

I'm assuming you dump Gordon cause the cost of Magette plus Amnesty'ing CV is about 2million more than just paying Gordon. Plus CV's salary counts towards the floor, and it's possible someone will offer to pick him off of release waivers for a million/season.

Not that it makes any real sense, but I see what they're trying to do.

[RainMaker]

I just don't think small market teams like that can give up potentially good first round picks like that.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He's still showing no signs of improving. Has not made any improvements over the past couple seasons. Now I know players develop at different rates, but we have also seen guards be able to step in and contribute in their first few years.

Again, we're talking about three seasons here, really only two-and-a-half with the strike shortened season. What signs of improvement are you demanding to see? Also, how much blame should Sacramento take on not improving Tyreke? Who's not to say Sacramento will also ruin Lowry (a la Portland ruining Raymond Felton).

But what is the ceiling for him? Top 10 PG? You are getting that with Lowry. I think there is a chance Evans improves, but I don't see him becoming a perennial All-Star or anything. I guess what I see is that there is a chance for him to become as good as Lowry, but becoming an elite PG are really slim.

So, are you now calling Lowry a "perennial All-Star"? That seems to be quite a stretch. You can find PG's with Lowry's skills in the middle of the first round all the time, but volume scorers are much harder to come by. Just look at this year, specifically where Dion Waiters is ranked in compairison to Kendall Marshall.

Not cheap ones though (just look at their signing of Chuck Hayes). The draft is great for adding depth that you control for years at a cheap price. San Antonio has of course been great at taking players off the trash heap and turning them into solid rotation guys, but is Sacramento capable of doing that? San Antonio seems more the exception rather than the rule. I look at how a team like Indiana has built itself as a model for smaller market teams (can even throw Denver in there too). They have a lot of solid rotation guys for cheap and now enough cap room to make a splash on a star.

This is a GM problem, not a talent problem. The only reason Sacramento is not capable of doing this is poor management. It's really irrelevant to the whole "trade Tyreke for peanuts" issue. Actually, it may even prove my point.

Potential is also dangerous too. It's what gets Tyrus Thomas a big contract and chosen instead of Lamarcus Aldrdige. And my point with Nene and Okafor is that if you have a young star, they can't develop with a bunch of unpolished players by their side always. At some point Washington had to surround Wall with real NBA players and not "potential" to see if he can be a star in the league. I feel the same with Cousins. At some point Sacramento has to put good players around him and see if he can be a star.

Everything can be dangerous. Have Lowry's teams been in contention for an NBA Championship? Nope. You hate how Miami did it, but the key in the NBA is to get your stars first then get the cheap role players later.

Again, and in response to what Gary and other have said above, Tyreke is 22 years old. If we're having the same arguments when Tyreke is 25, he will still have potential in NBA GM's eyes and will still probably carry the same trade value as he does today. Why give up that upside now? If Sacramento is wrong, the trade value is still there. If Sacramento is right, then they have at least one star and a second if Cousins develop.

Like I said, I think you can make a case for it being a good trade. I'm definitely not as high as you are on Evans and I think you are undervaluing how good Lowry has become. There is a pretty big gap between the two.

Lowry is a solid player but ceilinged out. Tyreke is a lesser player today but has a much higher ceiling. This isn't rocket science. Is Lowry going to make Sacramento a championship contender? Heck no. But, what if Tyreke develops into the potential observed during his rookie season? Then heck yes.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Again, we're talking about three seasons here, really only two-and-a-half with the strike shortened season. What signs of improvement are you demanding to see? Also, how much blame should Sacramento take on not improving Tyreke? Who's not to say Sacramento will also ruin Lowry (a la Portland ruining Raymond Felton).

Any signs of improvement would be great. Some semblance of a jump shot or being able to use his left hand. Those are his two biggest weaknesses and have seen absolutely no improvement. Yes you don't necessarily expect someone to peak after his 3rd season, but you do expect to see some improvements. And you're correct that Sacramento might not be able to develop him properly, which is all the more reason to trade him for a player that is polished.

As for Felton, Portland didn't ruin him, eating did.

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

So, are you now calling Lowry a "perennial All-Star"? That seems to be quite a stretch. You can find PG's with Lowry's skills in the middle of the first round all the time, but volume scorers are much harder to come by. Just look at this year, specifically where Dion Waiters is ranked in compairison to Kendall Marshall.

No I'm not calling Lowry that. I think he's just below an All-Star caliber PG. Definitely top 10 in the NBA but near the bottom of that list. I'm saying that I don't think Evans has perennial All-Star ability in him and thus, his ceiling isn't much higher than what you currently would get from Lowry.

I don't think efficient PGs are that easy to pick up in the draft. I do think athletic wings who can't shoot are though.

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

This is a GM problem, not a talent problem. The only reason Sacramento is not capable of doing this is poor management. It's really irrelevant to the whole "trade Tyreke for peanuts" issue. Actually, it may even prove my point.

Kyle Lowry isn't peanuts. He's a top 10 PG. Tyreke isn't even the best PG on his team.

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Again, and in response to what Gary and other have said above, Tyreke is 22 years old. If we're having the same arguments when Tyreke is 25, he will still have potential in NBA GM's eyes and will still probably carry the same trade value as he does today. Why give up that upside now? If Sacramento is wrong, the trade value is still there. If Sacramento is right, then they have at least one star and a second if Cousins develop.

Lowry is a solid player but ceilinged out. Tyreke is a lesser player today but has a much higher ceiling. This isn't rocket science. Is Lowry going to make Sacramento a championship contender? Heck no. But, what if Tyreke develops into the potential observed during his rookie season? Then heck yes.

I just think you're overvaluing Tyreke's potential. He doesn't have a position, can't shoot, and can't use his left hand. There is of course potential there, but he needs to improve a lot of areas of his game to be a great player in the league. There is time to do it, but I haven't seen any inclination that he is getting better, or that he can do it in Sacramento. I guess I'd feel more confident if some aspect of his game had gotten better, but it hasn't.

I also disagree on value in 3 years. Tyrus Thomas is a guy with insane potential and 25. He has absolutely no trade value. Teams will give up on you at a point, and Tyreke is getting awfully close to that point. If that weren't the case, Tyrus would have a lot of trade value. And another thing about 25 year old Tyreke Evans, he won't be on a rookie contract and no one is taking a bad contract on for a player who didn't pan out at 25.

As it stands Tyreke is an athletic high usage combo guard who can't shoot and doesn't play good team defense. He's Larry Hughes.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Any signs of improvement would be great. Some semblance of a jump shot or being able to use his left hand. Those are his two biggest weaknesses and have seen absolutely no improvement. Yes you don't necessarily expect someone to peak after his 3rd season, but you do expect to see some improvements. And you're correct that Sacramento might not be able to develop him properly, which is all the more reason to trade him for a player that is polished.

As for Felton, Portland didn't ruin him, eating did.

How did LeBron do without a jump shot this year? Every player has weaknesses, but that should not define his value. At 22, I expect a guy to have weaknesses, glaring ones. I'm more willing to take a roll of the dice on the athleticism and give him two or three more seasons to figure it out. Even if he doesn't, he'll still have that athleticism and still be marketable to other teams. But why trade him now? Are we so sure that Cousins is the right guy to build around?

As far as Sacramento, how does trading Tyreke solve the problem? All you've done is lowered the ceiling of the team without a collateral promise that things will get better in team management.

Oh, and Felton was ruined because he played in several difference systems for several different teams. That will only hurt development. Wouldn't trading Tyreke to an entirely new system also set back his development?

No I'm not calling Lowry that. I think he's just below an All-Star caliber PG. Definitely top 10 in the NBA but near the bottom of that list. I'm saying that I don't think Evans has perennial All-Star ability in him and thus, his ceiling isn't much higher than what you currently would get from Lowry.

I don't think efficient PGs are that easy to pick up in the draft. I do think athletic wings who can't shoot are though.

We will just have to agree to disagree on Tyreke's all star potential, but I think we can agree that he is an athletic freak with a rare skill set who can be scary if he figures it all out.

Also, I haven't looked this up to check, but I'm pretty sure Lowry, Felton, and Lawson, all similar players, were all non-lottery picks. I think Marshall has that ability, and you can get a mid first rounder like him for peanuts.

Kyle Lowry isn't peanuts. He's a top 10 PG. Tyreke isn't even the best PG on his team.

These are two different statements. I agree that Lowry isn't "peanuts" but still think his skill set is more easily replaced than Evans potential. Also, let's not forget that Sacramento would have been giving up Evans AND a lottery pick. As I said before, if the deal was Lowry and two mid-firsts for Evans, that's a lot more palatable than the prior offer.

I just think you're overvaluing Tyreke's potential. He doesn't have a position, can't shoot, and can't use his left hand. There is of course potential there, but he needs to improve a lot of areas of his game to be a great player in the league. There is time to do it, but I haven't seen any inclination that he is getting better, or that he can do it in Sacramento. I guess I'd feel more confident if some aspect of his game had gotten better, but it hasn't.

I also disagree on value in 3 years. Tyrus Thomas is a guy with insane potential and 25. He has absolutely no trade value. Teams will give up on you at a point, and Tyreke is getting awfully close to that point. If that weren't the case, Tyrus would have a lot of trade value. And another thing about 25 year old Tyreke Evans, he won't be on a rookie contract and no one is taking a bad contract on for a player who didn't pan out at 25.

As it stands Tyreke is an athletic high usage combo guard who can't shoot and doesn't play good team defense. He's Larry Hughes.

For twenty-two years old, I still take the chance that he will develop his shot while keeping the athletic ability. It's easier to tell a guy to tone it down than to turn it up. Also, Evans had a solid rookie reason, a sophomore slump, and a strike shortened season where we can't take away any era conclusions.

Tyra's Thomas is 25. If Evans is 25 and hasn't figured it out, then you may be on to something. At that point, you're in the last year or two of his contract and could still get a mid-first rounder for him to get a guy like (drum roll) Kyle Lowry.

You're underselling Tyreke and I'm overselling him. Let's say they cancel out for the purposes of this trade. Then you're left with a lottery pick in an eight player draft for two mid-first rounders. That's still not an awful deal.

[jbergey22]

Tyreke just needs a different system to play in. The reason he hasnt progressed is him and Cousins dont play well together. The Kings as a team are awful at passing and arent good at putting the players in a position to be successful. Kind of a coaching and chemistry issue.

As for the discussion I think its a bad trade for the Kings as well. Id certainly take Tyreke going forward and Id want the #5 pick over the two non lotto picks.

Lowry took a step back last year and lost his starting job. Im not seeing why he is considered a top 10 point guard. He does a lot of things but really isnt a good shooter at all. Do we really think the Rockets have two top 10 point guards on their team currently?

PERHAPS Lowry might make them a better team next year but whats that instead of 25-30 wins they are a 33 win team? I think they could get more for Tyreke or atleast see if his potential can be found. I have a feeling the best we saw from Lowry was 2 seasons ago.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

How did LeBron do without a jump shot this year?.

James shot 47% from 3-9 and 10-15 feet as well as 39% from 16-23 (and he was better there previously, so it´s not a result of taking less 3s) while Evans shot 27, 24 and 30 percent respectively.
Overall James made FGs are about split evenly between layups/dunks and everything else while it´s 70/30 for Evans.

Not going to really dive into this but some short thoughts :

- Lowry didn´t really loose his job, he got injured and then when he came back for the last 9 games the Rockets were winning games and Dragic played really well

- That said, Lowry imo also isn´t a great PG and would propably best served in a 6th man role himself. Can Carry a team for stretches, can get hot, plays great defense and and forces teams to adjust to him. But he isnt the sort of player to carry the load and be efficient for long stretches or be the 3rd or 4th option and set up his teammates.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by stevew

Cavs considering taking Waiters at 4? Please god no..just take TRob if you can't get MKG or Beal. There are worse things in the world than having a few extra bigs that can play.

Oh dear. As much as we need a dynamic SG or SF, what we need above all else is talent. I'd happily bring in a "safe" pick like TRob than blow yet another pick drafting for need over common sense.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by FF

why do i get the feeling that you'd be the type that would complain about any trade that joe d would make?

we cut a year off of ben gordons contract and charlie v can be amnestied this off season, what more could you ask for from this roster without trading stuckey, knight, or monroe?

and to complain about an energy guy like jerebko who makes 4.5m is only showing your bias. why dont you go ahead and tell me who the back up 3 would be anyways? daye? the same guy you just bitched about us drafting? IMO this move allows the pistons to take BPA which is more than likely a 2 or 4 anyways

Because what was the last good move he made? Knight and Monroe fell into his lap and beyond that his draft record is pathetic and his trading/free agent signing record is no better. He pulled a great pick with Prince, made a great signing with Chauncey and great trades for Rip, Ben and Sheed....he can't live off of those moves forever though.

What could I ask of this roster? Um how about not to waste potential lottery picks to try and clean up the mess he made? There's a very good chance this team is in the lottery the next two years and if so that's a possible top ten pick for nothing. Then again had he tendered Stuckey instead of signing him to a long term deal, not resigned a veteran in Prince to a long term deal for a team that had no aspirations of making the playoffs and had he not given a massive deal to a player that his former team didn't even tender because they didn't even want the right to entertain matching an offer for (CV) then maybe we wouldn't be giving away a possible lottery pick to cut one year off of Gordon's contract. We could amnesty him and have a ton of cap space to play with. And he can't trade Stuckey - nobody wants him. Knight and Monroe are the only two assets on the team and those are guys we can build around.

I'm also not complaining about Jerebko - I like him and I think he was underutilized by Frank. I would much rather see him play than Maxiell. I was pointing out that we could have had Blair and if the Spurs offered Blair for JJ I would have the paperwork faxed over before they could hang up the phone. If you want a backup 3 bring Singler over. I'd rather use him than Daye. Problem is you're now stuck having to play Tayshaun (which if that signing wasn't an admission that Daye was a huge mistake I don't know what is) and if Maggette is healthy you're not going to sit him and Maxiell opted in and you still have CV on the roster and JJ and probably Henson (who I actually like) coming in tonight. That's 7 guys for 2 positions. I'd love to see JJ, Singler and Henson (assuming) get all the minutes so they can develop and see if they're any good. Instead we're going to get a huge chunk eaten by vets who have no future with the team.

Take a look across the table at Indy and see what they've done. Granger, Hibbert and George all were drafted by Indy at 17, 17 and 10. George Hill was acquired for their 15th pick. Hansbrough is your energy guy (drafted too high but drafted by Indy nonetheless), Barbosa they got for a 2nd round draft pick, Collison they got for Troy Murphy, David West was a responsible and value free agent signing. That's how you build a team - good use of draft picks and smart trades/signings. Detroit is about to add its third straight top ten pick tonight and they're still a worse team than Indy who doesn't have ONE player drafted as high as any of those three. Instead Joe D is using future picks to clean up the mess that he made a couple years back.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Again, and in response to what Gary and other have said above, Tyreke is 22 years old. If we're having the same arguments when Tyreke is 25, he will still have potential in NBA GM's eyes and will still probably carry the same trade value as he does today. Why give up that upside now? If Sacramento is wrong, the trade value is still there. If Sacramento is right, then they have at least one star and a second if Cousins develop.

First I do agree that the GM and management are a problem. I clearly don't like the management in my town but its hard to say its much better in Sacramento.

That said here's why you have to trade him now - potential. You guys already went through the whole nobody wants Ty Thomas now bit which is true. You're going into the final season on Evans' rookie contract. After this season you either have to tender him for one more year and be prepared to match a big offer or put down the big money yourself and once the big contract has been signed potential means squat. If your main selling point on Tyreke is that he's 22 with a ton of potential then you have to trade him while that is still the case and if Sacramento thought he was going to realize that potential then they wouldn't be shopping him nor would they have squeezed him out for Thornton (and they know nobody stops the ball like Evans so he's a horrible fit at PG).

You can still sell someone on the potential of Evans. That he just needs a place where he's a better "fit". Plus he's still a cheap contract so its much easier to make a deal now with the salary rules and more teams could be in the mix for him. This is the time for Sacramento to pull the trigger if they are ever going to do it. I don't agree that Lowry is who they should be after (I like Thomas/Thornton in their backcourt) but I do agree they should be looking for a deal. Hell send him to Cleveland for #4 and get both MKG and Barnes in the draft.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

First I do agree that the GM and management are a problem. I clearly don't like the management in my town but its hard to say its much better in Sacramento.

That said here's why you have to trade him now - potential. You guys already went through the whole nobody wants Ty Thomas now bit which is true. You're going into the final season on Evans' rookie contract. After this season you either have to tender him for one more year and be prepared to match a big offer or put down the big money yourself and once the big contract has been signed potential means squat. If your main selling point on Tyreke is that he's 22 with a ton of potential then you have to trade him while that is still the case and if Sacramento thought he was going to realize that potential then they wouldn't be shopping him nor would they have squeezed him out for Thornton (and they know nobody stops the ball like Evans so he's a horrible fit at PG).

You can still sell someone on the potential of Evans. That he just needs a place where he's a better "fit". Plus he's still a cheap contract so its much easier to make a deal now with the salary rules and more teams could be in the mix for him. This is the time for Sacramento to pull the trigger if they are ever going to do it. I don't agree that Lowry is who they should be after (I like Thomas/Thornton in their backcourt) but I do agree they should be looking for a deal. Hell send him to Cleveland for #4 and get both MKG and Barnes in the draft.

I think we're on the same wavelength. The original argument was about the proposed deal for Lowry/two mid-firsts for Evans and a lottery. Somehow, Rainmaker (as he always does), turns this into a Lowry v. Evans debate which is not really the point.

My point is, if you're going to trade Evans, then get something back much higher than the Lowry offer. As you said, Lowry is not the best fit, but there might be other trades where Evans is dealt that make sense for both teams and all players. But that Lowry offer is not one of those.

[sterlingice]

Maybe I'm treating this too much like a video game, but let's say you're a team that sucks and is sitting at 2, 3, or 4

Would this be the year you could rebuild your team from the ground up? With Houston sitting there with 12, 16, and 18- you could trade that high pick to them and I bet you could turn around and send 12 to Boston for 21 and 22 and get yourself 16, 18, 21, and 22.

Doesn't that end you with some pu pu platter of 4 of the following:
Terrence Ross
Jeremy Lamb
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Kendall Marshall
Marquis Teague
Royce White
Jared Sullinger
Arnett Moultrie
Feb Melo

What are the odds on at least one of the four from the list above hitting against one of MKG, Beal, Robinson, or Barnes?

SI

[Gary Gorski]

I think that's a viable strategy if you're at 6+ but I'd rather have one of the top 5 then say Lamb, Ross, Melo and White. For it to work otherwise you have to think there's a decent chance picks 2-5 would be busts and I don't think they will be. It's not like its the draft where Thabeet is up there - those first 5 are legit.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Maybe I'm treating this too much like a video game, but let's say you're a team that sucks and is sitting at 2, 3, or 4

Would this be the year you could rebuild your team from the ground up? With Houston sitting there with 12, 16, and 18- you could trade that high pick to them and I bet you could turn around and send 12 to Boston for 21 and 22 and get yourself 16, 18, 21, and 22.

Doesn't that end you with some pu pu platter of 4 of the following:
Terrence Ross
Jeremy Lamb
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Kendall Marshall
Marquis Teague
Royce White
Jared Sullinger
Arnett Moultrie
Feb Melo

What are the odds on at least one of the four from the list above hitting against one of MKG, Beal, Robinson, or Barnes?

SI

This is a very deep draft, but it only has 1 "sure" all star. There are several guys with nice potential that are going to slide into the late teens to twenties because of depth. If there's a year to load up with 4 picks instead of a pick in the 2-6 range this is probably it.

Barnes or Terrance Jones + 3 others? Give me Jones and 3 other first round picks. The same goes for Drummond and Waiters.

With that said, four 1st round picks in one draft is probably a recipe for disaster. Outside of text sims, having 1/4 of your roster compiled of rookies is probably not the best way to go about building a team and there's a lack of 1st round foreign talent to stash this year.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Maybe I'm treating this too much like a video game, but let's say you're a team that sucks and is sitting at 2, 3, or 4

Would this be the year you could rebuild your team from the ground up? With Houston sitting there with 12, 16, and 18- you could trade that high pick to them and I bet you could turn around and send 12 to Boston for 21 and 22 and get yourself 16, 18, 21, and 22.

Doesn't that end you with some pu pu platter of 4 of the following:
Terrence Ross
Jeremy Lamb
Terrence Jones
Perry Jones
Kendall Marshall
Marquis Teague
Royce White
Jared Sullinger
Arnett Moultrie
Feb Melo

What are the odds on at least one of the four from the list above hitting against one of MKG, Beal, Robinson, or Barnes?

SI

I made this point on a Cavs board today that if we're going to draft Waiters, we may just as well trade 4(and I included 24) for 12, 16, 18 and just shoot for the moon on those picks. I really liked the old school Eddie Griffin for Jason Collins, Brandon Armstrong and Richard Jefferson trade back in the day. I still think the Cavs are fools for passing on Robinson though.

I wonder if there might be a scenario where Houston trades the Cavs the 3 #1's, the Cavs trade #4 (MKG) to the Lakers, the Lakers trade Gasol to the Rockets, and the Rockets trade like Scola to the Cavs, Cavs send Boobie and some second rounders to the Lakers. Lakers get Patrick Patterson....something to that effect.

Obviously far fetched, but in line with a bunch of the predraft noise

[Chief Rum]

I don't think the Lakers would except the #4 pick alone for Gasol.

[rjolley]

So Bulls fans, what's the word on what we're looking at drafting? Saw an ESPN article with some guesses. Of the ones they chose, I like John Jenkins out of Vandy and Doron Lamb of Kentucky the most, from seeing them play this year.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This is a very deep draft, but it only has 1 "sure" all star. There are several guys with nice potential that are going to slide into the late teens to twenties because of depth. If there's a year to load up with 4 picks instead of a pick in the 2-6 range this is probably it.

That was pretty much my rationale- if you're going to take a chance, this is the year not some year with a bunch of schlock in the mid teens. Tho, yes, the 4 rookies might just kill your squad.

SI

[Grover]

Andy Katz totally just said "bulging dick" instead of bulging disc. Excellent.

[bulletsponge]

Stern coming out and trying to draw heat from the crowd. yep, nothing like trying to pull a WWE move to alleviate concerns about rigging games and lottery's

[Logan]

[Chief Rum]

Seems to be fairly strongly indicated that a three way trade involving Mo Williams and Lamar Odom is under consideration, but all parties are waiting on Mo Williams to decide if he will pick up his option for next year.

I'm completely unsure--no, perplexed--at the thought of bringing Odom back to the Clippers. Even if he is the Lakers' Odom, and not the Clippers' Odom of 10 years ago or the malingering Odom of last year. And those other two options are far more likely, IMO.

[Logan]

I'm guessing MKG was planning on taking that "Public Speaking" course during his sophomore year.

[Logan]

Waiters to CLE at 4. Someone check on stevew.

[stevew]

Fuck fuck fuck motherfuck fuck

[Logan]

Keep breathing!

[stevew]

He's fat

[Matthean]

I know squat about the NBA draft and what picks would be good, but picking a guy 4th overall who couldn't start for his own team seems odd.

[stevew]

We played like fuck all year, just to get this tubby looking fatty who possibly is not a great human. Tell me something good Marmel. I'm basically physically ill right now and feel my blood pressure spiking.

[IlliniCub]

Yeah I was wondering if we had a repeat of the "bulging dick" incident from Sportscenter back in the day or if I was just hearing things. Though Katz implies Sullinger has multiple "bulging dicks", which could mean if the NBA thing doesn't work out I'd think he'd have an adult film career

[Groundhog]

Fuckity fuck fuck.

[stevew]

Thomas Robinson is going to be a monster.

[Chief Rum]

I am not watching the draft, since I am at work. Tell me, did a Maloof brother trip as he was hastily running up to hand Stern the Thomas Robinson card right after the Cavs' pick?

[Groundhog]

Odds that our late 1st round pick ends up being better than Waiters?