Ebola

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

If she traveled the day before she showed symptoms, and the disease supposedly doesn't transmit until you show symptoms, shouldn't everything be fine?

Rowechs earier posts indcate he believes the virus can be transmitted in ways other than those known by conventional wisdom.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by rowech

This is going to explode in the USA very soon. People are so stupid. Why would she travel to a different city? Just dumb beyond dumb.

Is this question "why did someone who felt fine take a plane flight"? If she was symptomatic then you would have a valid point, but in this case how could she have known?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Is this question "why did someone who felt fine take a plane flight"? If she was symptomatic then you would have a valid point, but in this case how could she have known?

That'd be my issue though.

Feel like they should have mandatory quarantine (with pay) for the workers who were exposed to the guy.

Especially in the case of this hospital where it sounds like they were massively unprepared.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That'd be my issue though.

Feel like they should have mandatory quarantine (with pay) for the workers who were exposed to the guy.

Especially in the case of this hospital where it sounds like they were massively unprepared.

OK, see where you're coming from with that. The issue there would be that if cases increase you'd soon run out of healthcare workers as they'd all be in quarantine for 21 days or so every time they interacted with an ebola patient.

In this case it seems like (from what we have been told) that everyone did what they were supposed to do, unlike the Spanish nurse - this time as soon as the first symptom showed, she reported it immediately. If what we are told is true and it's only contagious when an infected person is symptomatic, all should be OK...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by AlexB

OK, see where you're coming from with that. The issue there would be that if cases increase you'd soon run out of healthcare workers as they'd all be in quarantine for 21 days or so every time they interacted with an ebola patient.

In this case it seems like (from what we have been told) that everyone did what they were supposed to do, unlike the Spanish nurse - this time as soon as the first symptom showed, she reported it immediately. If what we are told is true and it's only contagious when an infected person is symptomatic, all should be OK...

Extremely valid point. I don't have an answer for that issue either

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Is this question "why did someone who felt fine take a plane flight"? If she was symptomatic then you would have a valid point, but in this case how could she have known?

She reportedly had a 99.5 degree temp when she left Cleveland...

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah

CDC: New Ebola patient shouldn't have flown | MSNBC

[JeeberD]

And it keeps getting better.

Ebola Nurse Boyfriend Admitted With Ebola Symptoms

[BillJasper]

Something is going to get us all in the end. If Ebola gets me, it gets me. Having a seven year old, I'm more concerned with the Enterovirus D68.

[miked]

All this talk about Ebola is rather amusing, wonder how all the people who don't want to vaccinate their children against actual diseases that have impacted more people feel.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by miked

All this talk about Ebola is rather amusing, wonder how all the people who don't want to vaccinate their children against actual diseases that have impacted more people feel.

One of my friends from high school is a nurse, and has been very vocal in the past about being unhappy with nurses having to get the flu vaccine. Now she is posting stuff freaking out about ebola, wanting hospitals to spare no costs for keeping the virus out, when there have been more people this week die from catching the flu at a hospital than there has been getting ebola from a hospital in the US.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Rowechs earier posts indcate he believes the virus can be transmitted in ways other than those known by conventional wisdom.

I don't believe it transmits through the air but the fact remains that healthcare workers, those who are trained to take every precaution, are getting it and then being careless in their behaviors. I do believe it transmits a hell of a lot easier than people believe it does.

It's only going to go exponential from here.

[jeff061]

I don't believe healthcare professionals are all anywhere near as well trained on Ebola precautions as we think. I don't think it transmits easier than we think it does, it's pretty clear cut how it transmits. Sweat, a sneeze, any other type of bodily fluids.

Problem is there are a lot of nurses out there that are "doing it wrong" when they are thrust into an Ebola situation and told to handle it.

[bhlloy]

Yeah that's the big takeaway. Duncan should not have been treated by these nurses at that hospital. I think I remember hearing that they are going to direct all future cases to the two hospitals in the country that are equipped and have staff trained in these kinds of diseases (one of which is Emory) - seems like an absolute no brainer

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I don't believe healthcare professionals are all anywhere near as well trained on Ebola precautions as we think. I don't think it transmits easier than we think it does, it's pretty clear cut how it transmits. Sweat, a sneeze, any other type of bodily fluids.

Problem is there are a lot of nurses out there that are "doing it wrong" when they are thrust into an Ebola situation and told to handle it.

How well do you think they are trained? PPE is a fairly major part of every healthcare profession and you have demonstrate you understand it well before you are able to sit for a license. "Ebola precautions" are not anything new. Would be a combo of contact/droplet precautions. Every healthcare provider should not only be expected to be an expert in this, but being able to teach these to others is a part of their job description.

In fact, if we are specifically talking about nurses, they have not only had to sit through lecture and read about them, they have had to demonstrate the proper procedure for how to perform them to their instructor. They have also been written tested on all the various forms of PPE, including how to educate the public if they come to a room with an isolation sign on the door. This is all before they get their license and anything the hospital would do is on top of this.

[jeff061]

That's all well and good. Doesn't change what I think is the issue, nurses not knowing what they are doing. What is expected and what is reality don't necessarily align.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by jeff061

That's all well and good. Doesn't change what I think is the issue, nurses not knowing what they are doing. What is expected and what is reality don't necessarily align.

I don't think it is anywhere near as black and white as that.

[molson]

There's a LOT of nurses and healthcare professionals in America. Some are bound to be idiots and terrible at their jobs (not unlike police officers). Those medical professionals make mistakes that result in the deaths of many people (about 200,000 people are killed in the U.S. every year from medical malpractice - another thing that should worry you more than Ebola).

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I don't think it is anywhere near as black and white as that.

I agree it's not. I'm not attempting to diagnose why the situation exists.

[miked]

Well, the other issue is that doctors (especially in ERs) see dozens of febrile patients daily. Rumor has it that this guy (who died) sat in a waiting room for a while, another room waiting for people, and it's not like this place is Emory or something (with special areas designed for this). So I think it's a combination of lots of things, but hopefully this raises awareness for more NIH dollars to fund research, and more standardized protocols across institutions.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by molson

There's a LOT of nurses and healthcare professionals in America. Some are bound to be idiots and terrible at their jobs (not unlike police officers). Those medical professionals make mistakes that result in the deaths of many people (about 200,000 people are killed in the U.S. every year from medical malpractice - another thing that should worry you more than Ebola).

Agree.

Let me be clear. Wasn't saying all nurses were morons or speaking negatively towards the profession or the nurses themselves. Totally agree with post above.

[jeff061]

Just saw on top of my news feed:

Nurses claim alarming lack of proper equipment and protocols to handle Ebola - NY Daily News

The nurses feel “unsupported, unprepared, lied to and deserted to handle their own situation,” they said in an additional statement they released Tuesday night.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

And it keeps getting better.

Ebola Nurse Boyfriend Admitted With Ebola Symptoms

That's what the headline says, that's not actually what the CEOs email says. Says he was quarantined since he had close contact, but has not shown any symptoms.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Just saw on top of my news feed:

Nurses claim alarming lack of proper equipment and protocols to handle Ebola - NY Daily News

But if we handle these things the right way, it will cut into someone's profit margin somewhere and we can't have that.

[Solecismic]

It's frustrating that protocol would indicate that the second nurse should not have flown anywhere following exposure, and that she continued her trip even when she had a fever.

Are people so selfish that they don't mind potentially bringing this disease somewhere new? Or is this just a lack of education?

It seems the CDC is vastly underestimating human nature. Which means hospital managers need to get their collective acts together immediately. It may be practical to send ebola cases to one or two hospitals right now, but if this becomes any larger, that will no longer be the case.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It's frustrating that protocol would indicate that the second nurse should not have flown anywhere following exposure, and that she continued her trip even when she had a fever.

Are people so selfish that they don't mind potentially bringing this disease somewhere new? Or is this just a lack of education?

It seems the CDC is vastly underestimating human nature. Which means hospital managers need to get their collective acts together immediately. It may be practical to send ebola cases to one or two hospitals right now, but if this becomes any larger, that will no longer be the case.

Exactly my point.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

She reportedly had a 99.5 degree temp when she left Cleveland...

In that case yes, she is an idiot. If nurses treating patients don't follow the rules/recommendations when you presume they would know the symptoms and potential consequences of travelling while feverish after contact with an ebola patient, it's hard to believe the ordinary person will self-quarantine in similar circumstances.

[jeff061]

Denial is a powerful thing. But yes, clearly the consequences are not strong enough and jail time should be handed down.

[JPhillips]

Every couple of months Shep Smith says what needs to be said.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by rowech

I don't believe it transmits through the air but the fact remains that healthcare workers, those who are trained to take every precaution, are getting it and then being careless in their behaviors. I do believe it transmits a hell of a lot easier than people believe it does.

It's only going to go exponential from here.

So how bad ? 1000 deaths? 10000? More?

[Easy Mac]

I read a report that said the CDC knew she was one of the nurses who treated him on his return visit prior to the official diagnosis, when he was vomiting.

They also gave her permission to go to Cleveland, even though they were monitoring her.

Are they just trying to tempt fate?

I also like how it completely contradicts Frieden's assertion that she shouldn't have flown.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So how bad ? 1000 deaths? 10000? More?

I'll guess around 100 or so by January. 1000 by end of Spring. Hopefully by then we have stopped acting with arrogance and such disregard for protocol.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by rowech

I'll guess around 100 or so by January. 1000 by end of Spring. Hopefully by then we have stopped acting with arrogance and such disregard for protocol.

If we exceed 10 deaths in the US I'll be very surprised

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rowech

I'll guess around 100 or so by January. 1000 by end of Spring. Hopefully by then we have stopped acting with arrogance and such disregard for protocol.

Want to put some $$ on it?

[molson]

I'm going to predict 0 more deaths, though I wouldn't be surprised if fuck-ups could lead to another couple. I'd be very surprised at anything more than 10, and even then, I'd be much more concerned about the reaction of people in this country and the impact on the economy than a disease itself that would have wiped out a whole 1 in every 30 million of us by that point. The mortality rate, even with a much smaller sample size, is going to be dramatically less than West Africa. Nigeria and Senegal had minor "outbreaks" that have now pretty much ended, and the U.S. will do even better than them. The disease has barely even spread in Africa outside of the 3 West African countries hit by this, 10 months into the epidemic there. (and those are 3 of the poorest countries on the planet, which is no coincidence). Ebola couldn't take hold in relatively wealthier and more medically advanced Nigeria.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm going to predict 0 more deaths, though I wouldn't be surprised if fuck-ups could lead to another couple. I'd be very surprised at anything more than 10, and even then, I'd be much more concerned about the reaction of people in this country and the impact on the economy than a disease itself that would have wiped out a whole 1 in every 30 million of us by that point. The mortality rate, even with a much smaller sample size, is going to be dramatically less than West Africa. Nigeria and Senegal had minor "outbreaks" that have now pretty much ended, and the U.S. will do even better than them. The disease has barely even spread in Africa outside of the 3 West African countries hit by this, 10 months into the epidemic there. (and those are 3 of the poorest countries on the planet, which is no coincidence).

dammit, shut up. I'm trying to win some easy money here!

[Solecismic]

From CBS:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that Vinson called the agency several times before flying, saying that she had a fever with a temperature of 99.5 degrees. But because her fever wasn't 100.4 degrees or higher, she didn't officially fall into the group of "high risk" and was allowed to fly.

Words escape me. What's the point of having a CDC if their "monitoring" of a situation borders on criminal negligence?

[nol]

Put it this way: I'm much more likely to bet against less than 10 than against more than 100. The epidemic's been growing at an exponential pace the past 6 months in West Africa, and the data shows no indication that it will fall off anytime soon. You can't stop every one of those people from slipping through the cracks and going to the US or Europe.

Even if we do end up doing better than Africa with regards to not letting infected people infect others (we currently are not), this isn't something that will blow over within a couple months.

[molson]

Nigeria had a similar lapse this summer, except much worse - someone who was near death and showing obvious symptoms traveled by plane from Liberia to Lagos. He was exposed to 72 people on the plane, many more at the airport, and then the hospital before they reeled the situation in. Nobody on the plane got infected. A few other cases have popped up here and there but were all contained with a total death toll of 8. Nigeria has had no active cases in 21+ days, which means they're in the clear again until and if someone else comes in with symptoms.

Of course, that won't stop stuff like this:

Texas College Rejects Nigerian Applicants, Cites Ebola Cases - NBC News

Edit: If you're black guy on a plane things could go either way right now. Maybe you'll get more space because people are more afraid of you than usual, but sneeze too much and you might have 20 firefighters greeting you on arrival.

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

Nigeria had a similar lapse this summer, except much worse - someone who was near death and showing obvious symptoms traveled by plane from Liberia to Lagos. He was exposed to 72 people on the plane, many more at the airport, and then the hospital before they reeled the situation in. Nobody on the plane got infected. A few other cases have popped up here and there but were all contained with a total death toll of 8. Nigeria has had no active cases in 21+ days, which means they're in the clear again until and if someone else comes in with symptoms.

That's epidemiology for you. It's infinitely easier when you can trace it back to one Patient Zero. When you have a dozen or so patients presenting with symptoms all at once as in Sierra Leone, it's already too late for the whole process of tracing back everyone who was in contact and quarantining them. Nigeria was not a shining example of Ebola containment; 11 hospital workers became infected from coming into contact with that patient. They were just more prepared to act on the Ebola threat because it had already happened elsewhere.

Either way, the Texas college thing is dumb as hell.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Want to put some $$ on it?

I can't win that bet either way. If I lose, I'm out the money and if I win, I made the money off of people dying. Doesn't seem good karma.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Ryche

If we exceed 10 deaths in the US I'll be very surprised

I think we will exceed that total. Americans are stubborn.

[timmae]

Shocking how ill prepared some healthcare professionals are for certain things. They are supposed to be professionals. If you are an issue, say something. The hospital in Texas sounds like a circus.

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I read a report that said the CDC knew she was one of the nurses who treated him on his return visit prior to the official diagnosis, when he was vomiting.

They also gave her permission to go to Cleveland, even though they were monitoring her.

Are they just trying to tempt fate?

I also like how it completely contradicts Frieden's assertion that she shouldn't have flown.

Actually just the opposite is what I heard. She was ordered not to travel anywhere for at least 3 weeks, and to avoid airports completely (traveling or not)...

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

From CBS:


Quote:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that Vinson called the agency several times before flying, saying that she had a fever with a temperature of 99.5 degrees. But because her fever wasn't 100.4 degrees or higher, she didn't officially fall into the group of "high risk" and was allowed to fly.



Words escape me. What's the point of having a CDC if their "monitoring" of a situation borders on criminal negligence?

If this happened, it wasn't the person coordinating the CDC response efforts, as I mentioned above, the response team is the one that instructed her not to travel. If she really did get the ok to go to Cleveland, then it came from someone lower down on the totem pole taking it upon himself to make a decision, or by someone higher up in the organization that didn't feel the need to inform the response team.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rowech

I can't win that bet either way. If I lose, I'm out the money and if I win, I made the money off of people dying. Doesn't seem good karma.

I see. What if we paid each other off in a donation to charity? Still not willing to put your money where your mouth is?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Breeze

Actually just the opposite is what I heard. She was ordered not to travel anywhere for at least 3 weeks, and to avoid airports completely (traveling or not)...

wouldn' she be put on the no fly list if that was the case?

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Lathum

wouldn' she be put on the no fly list if that was the case?

You think the different departments(CDC and I'm assuming Homeland/TSA) are working that seamlessly together? I sure as hell don't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by timmae

Shocking how ill prepared some healthcare professionals are for certain things. They are supposed to be professionals. If you are an issue, say something. The hospital in Texas sounds like a circus.

As I've watched my social media feed fill up this week with one healthcare pro after another bitching about the CDC and defending the nurse, I've been struck by a simple thought:

The CDC being inaccurate/insufficient/inept with their guidelines to hospitals / healthcare workers AND the nurse in this case royally f'ing up are NOT mutually exclusive.

That point seems to be getting lost on a lot of nurses I know right now.

[RainMaker]

After my Mom spent a month in the hospital a few years ago and my Dad recently spent two weeks in a hospital, I'm not surprised at all that there are issues in handling this.

I was blown away by the lack of attention to detail in hospitals, the lack of cleanliness, and the lack of urgency from anyone. These were good hospitals too. Now maybe my expectations were a little higher than they should have been going in, but I can tell you it's not as procedural as they make it seem in the media.