Werewolf XXXVIII: Jack The Ripper (GAME OVER! GOOD WINS ON DAY SEVEN)

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

People had different chances to see people based on how long they stayed in a district. hoops was in Cavell all night, Mr Wednesday only part of it.

Just bad luck it went that way, although I also thought there were plenty of ways to spin that, too. Really, if you're in any district and you're not on a kill run, there is a pretty good chance you will be seen and you should just say so.

If you were on a kill that night, Lathum, you would have been much harder to see, but you were opnly in the first ohase of looking for prostitutes, unfortunately.

Again, that same night ntndeacon was checking out hoops so that was why he was in that area.

[path12]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

FWIW Path...that spot-on analysis earned you bullet's knife last night, and i was gunning for Blade before I was arrested last night (i figured I'd at least give CR the chance to write that showdown if I made it there before i was arrested).

and tonight i pretty much knew it was over. either today or tomorrow, and what's the possible value in surviving another day just to be lynched tomorrow.

If I would have lived I was going hard after you today.

[Lathum]

thats because I had to idetify a prostitute first. It just seems it would have made more sense for me to run along with the group. I had no chance of survival after that

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Lathum

i don't really understand this post. MY point is that early in werewolf anything that sets you apart probably gets you killed so the fact that i was seperated from anyone else pretty much doomed me. Compound that with the fact people were saying I screwed up I was in a surly mood.

Becuase both seers our side had were confirmed to have met eachother on night 1, as well as watson. Then, NTN comes up dead as a seer and raider immediately trusts cronin and I. I felt it was blatantly obvious who we were.

Then, to add on to it, hoopsguy kept demanding answers about why he had seen cronin and in meeting with people at night...i was sure you guys would kill us then and there, but you all never did.

But lathum, as bad as it was for you to be singled out it was just as bad for NTN, cronin, and i to be grouped, coupled with NTNs death, RAs trust, and Hoops sightings...all game i was wondering what you were waiting for

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

CR- Thanks for running the game, I can tell you put alot of work into it so I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way.


I was really pissed off at everyone saying I messed up etc....

I just don't understand the mechanic in the game when there is a killing and 4 of us are in one sector. 3 of them run to Mr. Wed screams, hoops can identify all 4 people in the sector then Mr. Wed can identify the 3 people who responded. It makes it impossible for me to survive that.

And you had also already left Cavell when Tyrith bought it. IIRC (I'll have to look it up), only hoops and Schmidty were actually in Cavell when Tyrith died. Well, and dubb93.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Lathum

thats because I had to idetify a prostitute first. It just seems it would have made more sense for me to run along with the group. I had no chance of survival after that

But the group was the 3 people who just had a secret meeting between 2 seers...that doesnt make sense for you either to follow them

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Blade and I had a lot of fun.

Thanks for all the talks cronin, i had to clear out my PM box like 4 times from all our PMs.

I had a great time working with ya, thanks for the fun buddy

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I almost was going to try and get you lynched at one point, st. cronin. After you started saying people should vote to lynch me and knowing I was good, I instantly became suspicious of you.

This is a common mistake in werewolf, confusing the statement "that player is wrong" with "that player is a wolf." I do it myself, fairly often.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Cronin was holmes, i was watson...watson had no bodyguard powers. From the start i took the spotlight and eventually claimed holmes all to cover cronin. I figured eventually you would want to kill the one seer alive, but would miss and kill me. But you guys never came, which still suprises me.

Every murder we would visit...we investigated every crime scene and learned things from each. Thats how we bagged saldana that night, from our inspection of scmidty's body...thats whow we knew barkeep was killed by a lover, becuase he found a rash on his/her back which made it clear.

Last night we had communication issues..he asked me to send a scan in(since he said he was gone for the night about an hour before lynch), and i typed an order up. Right when i was going to send it in, he showed up(about 4 hours past lynch)...so we talked, and decided on scanning DT. Unfortunately, we both thought the other was going to send the order in. Cronin posted a the story about path, and despite my disagreement personally with that i had to follow along in public. We hoped maybe the bad guys would think we had something but wanted to wait...

Actually Watson did have BG ability...on Holmes. If Holmes was attacked, Watson would buy it for his friend and partner. And Holmes, in his grief, would be twice as sharp in picking up clues.

You got saldana because it was the third kill by Hyde you had investidated. Chances of identifying the killer increased with every murder by the same murderer. Getting dubb was just luck. st. cronin had a 1 in 5 chance of spotting an evil character in an interview, and he rolled it up on dubb.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Not being picky, but Moriarty, Fagin, the WW, and Hyde were all able to communicate? Wow. I'm surprised we won.

You do realize in this game there were 2 seers and one of the seers was actually two people and the two could talk and then 4 "semi" seers, right? I think the game was balanced slighly wrong, however I'd play it again. I don't think Chief had dreamed Lathum would have died so early. Even when you guys lost a seer in NTN, I think you have no clue the effect of Lathum dieing had. It allowed the "semi" seers to share their scans or "johns" in public.

Add to the fact that the only person we had that could kill every night was Saldana, we didn't get team kills like in normal games. It pretty much came down to die rolls IMHO. So yea, had Lathum survived we had a shot, once Lathum was gone the game balance went completely out the window. I also think the entire night scene of seeing everyone out and about made the game even more stacked against up.

If me or Sal made a kill we weren't seen out, anywhere in normal form(which draws attention from everyone). After LSG's urchins died, she could no longer leave the house, and in order for Daddy to visit a whore he had to forgo his evil night actions. And I still think it all goes back to the game balance going out the window once Lathum died. The whores won the game with their information. But that was a great play by Hoops to nail Lathum.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Becuase both seers our side had were confirmed to have met eachother on night 1, as well as watson. Then, NTN comes up dead as a seer and raider immediately trusts cronin and I. I felt it was blatantly obvious who we were.

Then, to add on to it, hoopsguy kept demanding answers about why he had seen cronin and in meeting with people at night...i was sure you guys would kill us then and there, but you all never did.

But lathum, as bad as it was for you to be singled out it was just as bad for NTN, cronin, and i to be grouped, coupled with NTNs death, RAs trust, and Hoops sightings...all game i was wondering what you were waiting for

ditto

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You got saldana because it was the third kill by Hyde you had investidated. Chances of identifying the killer increased with every murder by the same murderer.

Are you freakin serious? That is complete bullshit.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

You do realize in this game there were 2 seers and one of the seers was actually two people and the two could talk and then 4 "semi" seers, right? I think the game was balanced slighly wrong, however I'd play it again. I don't think Chief had dreamed Lathum would have died so early. Even when you guys lost a seer in NTN, I think you have no clue the effect of Lathum dieing had. It allowed the "semi" seers to share their scans or "johns" in public.

Add to the fact that the only person we had that could kill every night was Saldana, we didn't get team kills like in normal games. It pretty much came down to die rolls IMHO. So yea, had Lathum survived we had a shot, once Lathum was gone the game balance went completely out the window. I also think the entire night scene of seeing everyone out and about made the game even more stacked against up.

If me or Sal made a kill we weren't seen out, anywhere in normal form(which draws attention from everyone). After LSG's urchins died, she could no longer leave the house, and in order for Daddy to visit a whore he had to forgo his evil night actions. And I still think it all goes back to the game balance going out the window once Lathum died. The whores won the game with their information. But that was a great play by Hoops to nail Lathum.

agreed. dubb and i said this several times early on, that the game balance seemed off. and he just articulated why quite eloquently so I will just say that i agree with everything he said regarding that. and that's not just sour grapes...sure we could have played better and possibly won, but at heart I think the game balance was stacked against us, and the loss of lathum on night 2 (before he could have any effect) just made it near-impossible for us.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

You do realize in this game there were 2 seers and one of the seers was actually two people and the two could talk and then 4 "semi" seers, right? I think the game was balanced slighly wrong, however I'd play it again. I don't think Chief had dreamed Lathum would have died so early. Even when you guys lost a seer in NTN, I think you have no clue the effect of Lathum dieing had. It allowed the "semi" seers to share their scans or "johns" in public.

Add to the fact that the only person we had that could kill every night was Saldana, we didn't get team kills like in normal games. It pretty much came down to die rolls IMHO. So yea, had Lathum survived we had a shot, once Lathum was gone the game balance went completely out the window. I also think the entire night scene of seeing everyone out and about made the game even more stacked against up.

If me or Sal made a kill we weren't seen out, anywhere in normal form(which draws attention from everyone). After LSG's urchins died, she could no longer leave the house, and in order for Daddy to visit a whore he had to forgo his evil night actions. And I still think it all goes back to the game balance going out the window once Lathum died. The whores won the game with their information. But that was a great play by Hoops to nail Lathum.

Dubb, with this being true, you werent as screwed as you think:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

st. cronin had a 1 in 5 chance of spotting an evil character in an interview, and he rolled it up on dubb.

Dice rolls fell in our favor, but the balance was actually there..you guys just got unlucky and made some "interesting" night kill choices.

Can you all tell me why all game(well, after NTN on night 2) you killed the regular villagers and 1 hooker? It seemed clear to me RA, cronin, and i were widely accepted as the 3 specials, and the 3 of us won the game.

Without being able to arrest and double lynch, we wouldnt have had LSG or DT this quickly, and without cronins seer powers we wouldnt have had dubb, saldana, and really lathum since he got caught in part because our scan of NTN.

So basically, why did you any of the 3 of us?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Are you freakin serious? That is complete bullshit.

Thats what we never revealed, and i said it a bit ago.

Now you know why i was soo for the bad guys killing constantly, we would catch you.

[dubb93]

I mean seriously, I would bye the fact that Blade was watching the area of Sal's murder. But to hand it to him? Thats not a good mechanic at all, and I really wish I hadn't heard that. How were we supposed to kill them off then? I assume there was a stipulation where when the side of good lynched an innocent they risked losing a random member too? Or risked losing a day to lynch? I chalked that up to a good play by Blade to be in the right place at the right time, but you handed it to him?

[Raiders Army]

also, what about the masons?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

So who were the freemasons? Or was that just a ruse?

No ruse, but no masons to start the game. If a Londoner got to 20 shillings and kept it at that level or higher for a night, he would be offered to join the freemasons. Only thing was he couldn't have committed to evil yet (been converted).

A mason had a number of powers. He could command RA to arrest anyone or release anyone. He could put anyone's head in a noose (the other side of the duke power that I did not give to RA). He could frame someone for a crime once a game, much like Moriarty had, and his frame would stick. And he would not be able to be lynched.

Dodgerchick came closest after robbing Barkeep. She would have been offered last night if you hadn't lynched her.

Oh yeah, and the win condition was as listed--to survive. And the mason could choose to help whomever they wanted. One mason per game.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

agreed. dubb and i said this several times early on, that the game balance seemed off. and he just articulated why quite eloquently so I will just say that i agree with everything he said regarding that. and that's not just sour grapes...sure we could have played better and possibly won, but at heart I think the game balance was stacked against us, and the loss of lathum on night 2 (before he could have any effect) just made it near-impossible for us.

We lost one of our seers night 2(same as lathum), our other seer had a 1 in 5, i repeat 1 in 5 chance of catching a bad guy if we scanned him, and the only real power we had was that we could investigate crime scenes. That netted us 1, 1 bad guy.

You had 5, really 6 killers...you could all communicate(minus lathum, but you knew him and he died early), and all 3 good specials were pretty obvious in hinting

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Also, Blade was Watson and I was Holmes.

I suspected this after the first few days. It was a good play, in my opinion.

[st.cronin]

Killing path was the nail in the coffin. Hoopsguy or Izulde would have been better choices, and Blade and I would have been VASTLY better choices. Had you come after either myself or Blade, you might have been able to pull out a win.

The game was still within reach at that point.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

So basically, why did you any of the 3 of us?

We all made the decisions ourselves on who to kill and argued about it quite a bit. However, once Sal died we were down to no real killers. Like I said, Sal was the only one who could kill every night. Heck, I only got 1 kill.

LSG only got 1 kill, and DT only got 2 kills. We didn't kill you b/c by that point we couldn't. Simple as that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Thats what we never revealed, and i said it a bit ago.

Now you know why i was soo for the bad guys killing constantly, we would catch you.

and you KNEW this? that's ridiculous...means all you had to do was pick one type of "kill" to keep investigating until you found the murderer. UGH

as for why we didn't go after you three: lack of night-kill ability (LSG had 1, i only had 2 until the others were killed, dubb was dependent on the weather, sal could kill every night but risked "loosing control", bullet had none)

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I mean seriously, I would bye the fact that Blade was watching the area of Sal's murder. But to hand it to him? Thats not a good mechanic at all, and I really wish I hadn't heard that. How were we supposed to kill them off then? I assume there was a stipulation where when the side of good lynched an innocent they risked losing a random member too? Or risked losing a day to lynch? I chalked that up to a good play by Blade to be in the right place at the right time, but you handed it to him?

It was cronin, i was watson.

And if you hadnt left us alive after all of our hints it wouldnt have been an issue.

Unlike you, we couldnt visit prostitutes...it was clear by day 2 or 3 who was left. Not to us, you were all unvisited too...but to you, it read a list of good specials. I maintain you made the mistake of not killing the three of us(more cronin and RA) and it cost you the game

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Again, that same night ntndeacon was checking out hoops so that was why he was in that area.

Yup, ntn was there for hoops, and Watson-st. cronin were there for ntn. Strangely enough, they left to investigate the other murders (BrianD and Fouts, I think), and then came back to Cavell after Tyrith bought it.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

and you KNEW this? that's ridiculous...means all you had to do was pick one type of "kill" to keep investigating until you found the murderer. UGH

as for why we didn't go after you three: lack of night-kill ability (LSG didn't have any, i only had 2 (i think) until the others were killed, dubb was dependent on the weather)

No, we were never guranteed a thing..we just investigated every murder scene and looked for clues. The more each murdered, the more likely we found something. We went to every murder, not one type...but we could have gone for a year and not got anything, we got lucky with sal

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

It was cronin, i was watson.

And if you hadnt left us alive after all of our hints it wouldnt have been an issue.

Unlike you, we couldnt visit prostitutes...it was clear by day 2 or 3 who was left. Not to us, you were all unvisited too...but to you, it read a list of good specials. I maintain you made the mistake of not killing the three of us(more cronin and RA) and it cost you the game

Blade, I got 1 kill, I repeat 1 kill on night 1. I believe LSG's kill's were gone on night 2, and with Lathum and Sal dead, our two killers, who exactly was going to kill you?

[dubb93]

Well, you investigated exactly one bad guy and I came up bad to you. And only the only guy that killed more than twice you nailed him immediately. I'd say you were REALLY lucky.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Blade, I got 1 kill, I repeat 1 kill on night 1. I believe LSG's kill's were gone on night 2, and with Lathum and Sal dead, our two killers, who exactly was going to kill you?

yeah. the weather screwed you too dubb. and i was honestly wary of going after holmes+watson myself even after we had identified you two because I figured you had a counter to my rather "clumsy" kills and then I would be lost for nothing.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Are you freakin serious? That is complete bullshit.

It wasn't automatic. Even the third saldana kill was just a 50% shot. But Watson-Holmes were getting lucky roles all game long.

Also, it was bad luck with the weather. If weather behaves (50% chance of moon being out every night), you get to kill every night. And unfortunately for you, one of the nights you could kill, your target was arrested before you could get to him.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Blade, I got 1 kill, I repeat 1 kill on night 1. I believe LSG's kill's were gone on night 2, and with Lathum and Sal dead, our two killers, who exactly was going to kill you?

You all chose to kill path, you chose to kill barkeep...

Heck, by night 3 all the clues were out there(really after night 2 it was clear about cronin and I...RA might have been harder). Night 3 you chose schmidty, and mr. w(i can understand mr. w, but we were a bigger threat then schmidty too.

Thats 3 kills you could have used on us

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Well, you investigated exactly one bad guy and I came up bad to you. And only the only guy that killed more than twice you nailed him immediately. I'd say you were REALLY lucky.

Yes, we were very lucky.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Killing path was the nail in the coffin. Hoopsguy or Izulde would have been better choices, and Blade and I would have been VASTLY better choices. Had you come after either myself or Blade, you might have been able to pull out a win.

The game was still within reach at that point.

I was still alive when we found out what happened after I died. In no uncertain terms, they were told they were not killers. Bullet had no experience killing, and DT was clumsy at it. Their best chance was to go out together, but even then the chance of making a kill and cleaning it up good were about nil. So, I think if you were told that you would be careful to pick off the feeble.

[Swaggs]

Did the prostitutes know one another from the beginning? Or was it just real easy for them to identify one another? I think the fact that they were all good to begin with and that they all seemed to know one another gave the good side, perhaps, too much of an advantage. Although I guess it was unknown whether or not they were good, we all seemed to assume that they were.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Well, you investigated exactly one bad guy and I came up bad to you. And only the only guy that killed more than twice you nailed him immediately. I'd say you were REALLY lucky.

We got good dice rolls, but things didnt go our way as well. Hoopsguy was a big detractor for us, as he couldnt shut up about cronin and i. By night 2 he had linked us twice, and the first time with the other dead seer.

Lucky yes, but you had luck like that too

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

You all chose to kill path, you chose to kill barkeep...

Heck, by night 3 all the clues were out there(really after night 2 it was clear about cronin and I...RA might have been harder). Night 3 you chose schmidty, and mr. w(i can understand mr. w, but we were a bigger threat then schmidty too.

Thats 3 kills you could have used on us

Schmidty's kill was a mistake as I said before I died. We lost control of hyde. Another thing that was stacked against us, we fucking lost control of our only real killer.

[dubb93]

I actually believe the kill of Schmidty was supposed to St. Cronin, but we lost control of him. Prehaps Sal can come in and confirm?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Did the prostitutes know one another from the beginning? Or was it just real easy for them to identify one another? I think the fact that they were all good to begin with and that they all seemed to know one another gave the good side, perhaps, too much of an advantage. Although I guess it was unknown whether or not they were good, we all seemed to assume that they were.

Knew there were four prostitutes, but did not know each other initially.

On Night 0 I saw Barkeep and SnDvls out selling themselves. And Fouts protected Izulde, said he was in another district. So it seemed likely that Izulde was the 4th. Had that info by end of Day 1.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Schmidty's kill was a mistake as I said before I died. We lost control of hyde. Another thing that was stacked against us, we fucking lost control of our only real killer.

Ill openly admit we got lucky...you got lucky to get one of our seers on night 2....but you have to realize it wasnt unbalanced, and the reason im fighting you here is because i think your wrongly attacking chiefs game when the fault lie in other areas...be it bad luck or missing clues

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I was still alive when we found out what happened after I died. In no uncertain terms, they were told they were not killers. Bullet had no experience killing, and DT was clumsy at it. Their best chance was to go out together, but even then the chance of making a kill and cleaning it up good were about nil. So, I think if you were told that you would be careful to pick off the feeble.

exactly. there's no way we had a chance to win, especially with holmes+watson investigating our clumsy kills i was certain. and i had a feeling that we wouldn't be able to get to killing the two of you either, and even if we had via path's post i was still target #1 and bullet would buy it sooner or later.

it was beyond done at that point. hell i'll go ahead and say that ANY chance we had was gone when Sal died, and DEFINATELY when dubb died.

[Blade6119]

Hoopsguy, now do you understand why i was annoyed by you not dropping your demands about seeing cronin and i with schmidty when both Mr W and i were telling you to shut up? I was sure they would come kill us that night

[hoopsguy]

One of these times I want a bad guy to actually put up their own argument rather than waiting for me to find a reason to back them

Blade/Cronin - I'm not sure I would have swallowed the "we collectively forgot to process an action" story so I guess I'm very glad the game ended tonight when it did.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I mean seriously, I would bye the fact that Blade was watching the area of Sal's murder. But to hand it to him? Thats not a good mechanic at all, and I really wish I hadn't heard that. How were we supposed to kill them off then? I assume there was a stipulation where when the side of good lynched an innocent they risked losing a random member too? Or risked losing a day to lynch? I chalked that up to a good play by Blade to be in the right place at the right time, but you handed it to him?

Well, he is Sherlock Holmes. Like I said, it wasn't automatic. You guys had some bad rolls. Just like losing Jack The Ripper really hurt you guys, losing Sherlock Holmes would have really hurt the side of good. Unfortunately for you, Holmes stayed alive and Jack bought it early.

Not going to say whether it was balanced properly or not. It was my first GMing game, so I am certain I made a mistake or two here and there.

But that's what was going on there. Sorry if you felt it was unbalanced. It wasn't my intent.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, he is Sherlock Holmes. Like I said, it wasn't automatic. You guys had some bad rolls. Just like losing Jack The Ripper really hurt you guys, losing Sherlock Holmes would have really hurt the side of good. Unfortunately for you, Holmes stayed alive and Jack bought it early.

Not going to say whether it was balanced properly or not. It was my first GMing game, so I am certain I made a mistake or two here and there.

But that's what was going on there. Sorry if you felt it was unbalanced. It wasn't my intent.

it's okay chief. I just want to say, none of us are ATTACKING you or blaming you for that. It's more...constructive criticism.

[Swaggs]

Actually, if I hadn't of screwed up and not given CR instructions on what to do with my bribed orphan, we would have gotten LSG a couple of days earlier, as well.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Blade, I got 1 kill, I repeat 1 kill on night 1. I believe LSG's kill's were gone on night 2, and with Lathum and Sal dead, our two killers, who exactly was going to kill you?

Actually, when you died, anyone without previous kill pwoers gained those powers "out of necessity." In other words, Fagin and Moriarty were normally manipulators, and bullet was too new, so they wouldn't kill automatically. But if the three "killers" all bought it, they would gain normal killing powers (and they did--bullet killed path).

[st.cronin]

I agree the way the game went was tough for the badguys. But, I still think they will agree that it was a fun game, and that Chief did a good job.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I actually believe the kill of Schmidty was supposed to St. Cronin, but we lost control of him. Prehaps Sal can come in and confirm?

i think you're right about this, from what i remember. and that would have taken out blade, and still left us with our "real" killer.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Hoopsguy, now do you understand why i was annoyed by you not dropping your demands about seeing cronin and i with schmidty when both Mr W and i were telling you to shut up? I was sure they would come kill us that night

Yeah, I get it. But I also thought it was about 50/50 on you having a Holmes/Watson role versus Fagin/Urchin and Schmidty wasn't around to say anything about the situation.

I'm always going to have a hard time sitting on the sideline and trusting someone in these games - I'm naturally paranoid when I play. I ask questions with the intent of putting information together and "trust me" is not the easiest advice to listen to, especially after I felt like you went after a known good in Barkeep earlier in the game and had admitted to lying about your info repeatedly.

Anyways, all is well that ends well with this game.

[Blade6119]

It wasnt unbalanced, we just got lucky and the bad guys didnt kill the special roles. Sucks for them, but it wasnt the game. Bad guys, unlucky or not, missed the good roles and lost becuase of it.