The Official 2013 MLB Thread

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

He won't even step out of the on deck circle until his name is announced. I don't care what anyone says.. he makes a mockery of the game.

Why Don't The St. Louis Cardinals Respect The Game?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Arles

There's been a ton of stories about his behavior in and outside of the clubhouse. Showing up opponents, not listening to coaches, loafing on double plays, half-ass outfield effort, getting benched and even showing up his own manager multiple times.

He is a punk, he's just a talented punk who doesn't speak english (which gives him some level of charm to Dodgers fans) and therefore can avoid the TO/DeSean comparisons. Miguel Montero put it best back in July after Puig did his "Mutombo" finger wag and stared him down after a play at the plate:

Quoting Montero, one of the biggest asses out there, doesn't help your causes. On top of that, the finger wag has been used plenty by your right fielder , so what is the issue?

[MrBug708]

And nice element of racism..

[JPhillips]

I just now watched Puig.

That's it?

[Arles]

What racism? I just said that the fact he's not from this country exempts from a lot of criticism other talented young athletes with attitudes like TO or DeSean get. You can throw in Manziel, Jason Williams, Sean Avery or John Rocker if you wanted white examples.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Quoting Montero, one of the biggest asses out there, doesn't help your causes. On top of that, the finger wag has been used plenty by your right fielder , so what is the issue?

Montero is a bit of a punk, but maybe that's how he quickly recognized it

[Arles]

As a Cards fan, I've seen the Carlos Marmol 4 pitch walk to start the ninth many a time

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

[panerd]

Like I said yesterday I am a Cards fan and have no problem with Puig's antics. However now with the racism charge being thrown out there I may have to switch sides. I certainly can see why he would be considered disrespectful and it has nothing to do with skin color though it makes a nice strawman.

[Arles]

I enjoyed this article a great deal:

#HotSportsTakes: The Dodgers Are a Disgrace - The Triangle Blog - Grantland

This whole thing is a little silly. Cards are one game away from the Series and that's what we should be focusing on as fans. All this other stuff is just filler.

[Logan]

You remember that it was you who "filled" it over here, right?

[Arles]

Of course, that's why I'm changing course. I've said my peace, I think Puig is a punk - but there are a lot of punks in baseball (many who I've held my nose and rooted for on the Cards - namely Keith Hernandez).

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I feel like some of the posters here will miss the satire.

[TroyF]

Was at the game last night, not as a fan of either team. The late HR, the pick off at second and the double play by Puig were three of the quietest moments I have ever heard (or not heard) at a major sporting event.

On Puig. . . I think his antics are a joke. I love the guys talent, but think he's a time bomb. That said, I think the Cardinals sicken me with the respect BS. They get into it with EVERY freaking team who challenges them in anyway. It's comical how no other team in the league understand respect but them. Please, get over yourselves.

As for the Montero quote, it's one of the statements of life that sickens me. NOBODY has to earn my respect. They get it. They are human. They LOSE respect. If you are talking about respecting him as an all star, no, that does have to be earned. But respect as a player and a human? No, Puig doesn't owe anyone that. If he's lost the respect of some, I understand. Just don't give me the earn respect garbage.

[panerd]

I think it's funny that Arles and MrBug are busy going back and forth with multi-paragraph responses right in the middle of game 4. Like winning an internet arguement is more important than watching the game.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Was at the game last night, not as a fan of either team. The late HR, the pick off at second and the double play by Puig were three of the quietest moments I have ever heard (or not heard) at a major sporting event.

On Puig. . . I think his antics are a joke. I love the guys talent, but think he's a time bomb. That said, I think the Cardinals sicken me with the respect BS. They get into it with EVERY freaking team who challenges them in anyway. It's comical how no other team in the league understand respect but them. Please, get over yourselves.

As for the Montero quote, it's one of the statements of life that sickens me. NOBODY has to earn my respect. They get it. They are human. They LOSE respect. If you are talking about respecting him as an all star, no, that does have to be earned. But respect as a player and a human? No, Puig doesn't owe anyone that. If he's lost the respect of some, I understand. Just don't give me the earn respect garbage.

A lot of stuff sickens you.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think it's funny that Arles and MrBug are busy going back and forth with multi-paragraph responses right in the middle of game 4. Like winning an internet arguement is more important than watching the game.

Baseball isn't exactly played at a fevered pace. Plenty of downtime for internet arguing between pitches, meetings at the mound, ....

I have enjoyed all the games so far though and hope for a big win today.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

I feel like some of the posters here will miss the satire.

Trust me, I've already been sent it 3 times on facebook by friends from St. Louis acting like it is serious. But, knowing it's Grantland and that Simmons lives in LA and is best buds with Magic now - there's no way any critical article like this about the Dodgers or Red Sox teams in the playoffs would ever make that site.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Considering the whole point is to be critical of terrible sportswriting, I'm not surprised nothing critical of the Dodgers or Red Sox teams aren't there.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Considering the whole point is to be critical of terrible sportswriting, I'm not surprised nothing critical of the Dodgers or Red Sox teams aren't there.

There's too much going on here in this sentence for me to understand it.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

There's too much going on here in this sentence for me to understand it.

I think you are being too critically critical of the criticaliness of that post.

[Logan]

The rare triple negative! Nice job RD3!

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

D'oh! Restated: the article isn't about the Cards it is about the media (particularly the national media).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Logan

The rare triple negative! Nice job RD3!

That is impressive Ronnie, I wouldn't change a thing!

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think it's funny that Arles and MrBug are busy going back and forth with multi-paragraph responses right in the middle of game 4. Like winning an internet arguement is more important than watching the game.

I dont know about you but I can watch tv and post at the same time. But multitasking was always a skill I had

[Logan]

It's been so long that I can't remember if I have the ability to post on here while watching my baseball team in the playoffs.

[PilotMan]

Adrian Gonzalez Makes Mickey Mouse Ears After Homering

[MrBug708]

Uh-Oh, Puig showing the Cardinals up by missing the ball in the sun

[spleen1015]

Watching pre-game for the ALCS, my stepson who isn't into sports as all says "Holy crap! How's that guy on the left with the huge forehead?" ROFL.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Adrian Gonzalez Makes Mickey Mouse Ears After Homering

Why Don't The Los Angeles Dodgers Respect The Game?

[Matthean]

If I'm the Tigers, I'm trying to score until they have 20 runs.

[PilotMan]

Dodgers FB page updates this just now:

Adrian Gonzalez sent this baseball on a minnie vacation to visit Pluto in the 3rd.



Hey, let us enjoy it. Let us be happy that Kershaw gets to pitch one more time. It could've been the end today.


Or I could have posted this nice tolling piece from Deadspin.


St. Louis Cardinals' March To World Series Crown Delayed Somewhat

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Matthean

If I'm the Tigers, I'm trying to score until they have 20 runs.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Matthean

If I'm the Tigers, I'm trying to score until they have 20 runs.

It would disrespectful to the game and your opponent to score double digits. That was just a selfish display by the Tigers hitters who were jealous of all the attention the pitchers were getting.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Or I could have posted this nice trolling piece from Deadspin.


St. Louis Cardinals' March To World Series Crown Delayed Somewhat

That trolling piece worked (or got topped and I'm gullible enough not to realize this response is satire.) http://thefederalist.com/2013/10/15/...-going-happen/

When I told him I’m a die-hard St. Louis Cardinals fan, the mood shifted. “I loathe the Cardinals,” he said. “That’s impossible,” I replied. Nobody hates the Cardinals. We’re a well-run organization with strong values. Our fans are the best in baseball. Hating the Cardinals is like punching your mother. Even if you were tempted, you just wouldn’t do it.

[Butter]

This anti-Cards wave happening in these playoffs is almost enough to make me smile.

The only time I've ever had anyone comment on a team shirt I was wearing other than "nice shirt" or "X team sucks" was when I was wearing a "Hunt for Reds October" shirt or something like that, and a Cards fan felt the need to stop me in a Lowe's and say "shouldn't that say Cards?" And smiled at me like I was supposed to think his asshole comment was hilarious. I just frowned and grunted and kept walking.

Go fuck yourself Cards. You may win the World Series this year, but the world is finally catching on to what a bunch of smug, self-satisfied humorless dicks that you are.

[ISiddiqui]

I am glad that this self-enforcer of the unwritten rules stuff is being countered. The Cardinals have been that for a while, but this year the Braves showed of their douchiness about it as well.

So, for that reason, I'm hoping the Dodgers somehow pull it out (not entirely holding my breath) in the NLCS. Though I want the Tigers to win because... well, Detroit really needs something.

[Arles]

I think the Cards are becoming akin to the Steelers or even Spurs in the NBA of 10 years ago. At first, everyone enjoyed seeing a team from a non-power market have success with drafting and smart GMing. Now, after 2 World Series wins in 7 seasons, 3 NL Pennants and making the NLCS for three straight years, people are tiring of them and want new blood. Add in the huge bandwagon that comes with that level of success and I can see why they aggravate some people (esp fans of rival teams).

However, there is something to be said teams that aren't doubling most competitors in payroll. Teams like the As (26th - $69M), Rays (29th - $57M) and Pirates (28th - $66M) are fun to root for but haven't been able to get over the hump. The Cards (12th - $110M) are really the only team not in the top 7 in salary to be a consistent World Series contender. 5 of the top 7 payrolls in NYY ($230M), LAD ($229M), BOS ($165M), Detroit ($152M) and Giants ($144M) have been the other winners or main contenders. The Phillies and Rangers also contended with payrolls north of $140M.

So, in a futile sales pitch for the haters, the Cards are really the only "moneyball/resource constricted" team that has had real consistent success. They didn't resign Pujols for a kings ransom, they spent $13 mil per for 2 years of Carlos Beltran and developed guys like Matt Adams and Allen Craig. If you look at the 9 guys who have started in the field, 5 starting pitchers and top 3 bullpen guys - only 2 (Beltran and Holliday) weren't homegrown. 14 of the 17 were Cardinal draft picks (they traded for Freese while he was in the minors). That is an unheard of rate for today's game. The Dodgers, on the other hand, have only 4 of the above that were drafted (Kershaw, Eithier, AJ Ellis and Jansen). Puig and Ryu are first year guys, but both were paid north of $42 mil as FAs this last offseason. The only guys on their roster who have played and make less than $1 mil are Jansen, Dee Gordon (pinch runner) and Scott Van Slyke (bench OF). The Cards have 16 guys who make less than a mil and play including 5 field starters, 2 SP and their top 3 bullpen guys.

[lungs]

I greatly admire the work that the Cardinals front office and scouting/development has done. They seem to be able to pull stars and role players from their rear end continuously. Otherwise, that's where my admiration ends though as I've said before Mike Matheny is really hard to dislike compared to Tony LaRussa.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Plus they have the best fans in baseball, how can you hate them??!?!?!!

[PilotMan]

It's pretty unfair to knock the Dodgers spending after the ownership BS that we've had to deal with over the years. I didn't see the Cards getting taken over by MLB.

We had an ownership that stripped the value out of the team and pocketed it at the expense of the fans. Only the big spending (and subsequent winning) of the last year got the enthusiasm back for the team. A team and farm that had been just ripped bare of talent and marketable talent at that.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Arles

The Dodgers, on the other hand, have only 4 of the above that were drafted (Kershaw, Eithier, AJ Ellis and Jansen).

You can't see Chris Withrow, but he's mooning you right now. So is Paco Rodriguez (although admittedly while he was on the roster all regular season and in the NLDS, he isn't on the NLCS roster). Are you leaving them off because they weren't "top three" bullpen guys, by whatever nebulous criteria you're using for that definition?

Puig and Ryu are first year guys, but both were paid north of $42 mil as FAs this last offseason.

Holy Christ you're misinformed. Puig wasn't signed "this last offseason." He signed in June of last year. Ryu signed in the offseason, and while the total cost of acquisition was "north of $42 mil," what he's actually being paid - as distinct from the posting fee - is $36 million. Call it splitting hairs if you like. I prefer to call it "getting the facts right before you try to use them in an argument."

The only guys on their roster who have played and make less than $1 mil are Jansen, Dee Gordon (pinch runner) and Scott Van Slyke (bench OF). The Cards have 16 guys who make less than a mil and play including 5 field starters, 2 SP and their top 3 bullpen guys.

You cannot be fucking serious. Tim Federowicz is making $491k. Chris Withrow is making the minimum. Volquez and Wilson are both on pro-rated contracts. Volquez is making close to $6 million, but the Dodgers are only responsible for the pro-rated veteran's minimum, and Wilson is making the pro-rated portion of the $1 million contract he signed in August. There are another three or four dudes who are making just under $1.5 million. Punto's making $1.5 million, Schumaker's making $1.5 million, Belisario is at like $1.4 million because of arbitration. And, again, that's ignoring Paco Rodriguez, who was a huge part of the team this year but was removed from the NLCS roster.

Are you really going to play the cherry-picking game here? "Wahh, Dodgers are the big bad spend-all-the-monies team and here's a bunch of misinformation because I either can't be bothered to get my facts right, or I'm afraid that getting the facts right wouldn't help my case as much as willful misrepresentation would!"

[molson]

And in any event, I don't think billion-dollar franchises putting money into the product is like, unethical or anything. Would the Dodgers really be more likeable if Magic & Co. pocketed more money for themselves? By that logic the Marlins should be America's team.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

You can't see Chris Withrow, but he's mooning you right now. So is Paco Rodriguez (although admittedly while he was on the roster all regular season and in the NLDS, he isn't on the NLCS roster). Are you leaving them off because they weren't "top three" bullpen guys, by whatever nebulous criteria you're using for that definition?

The top 3 bullpen guys for this series (which is what the frame of reference was) have been Jansen, Wilson and Howell. Would you disagree with that?

Holy Christ you're misinformed. Puig wasn't signed "this last offseason." He signed in June of last year. Ryu signed in the offseason, and while the total cost of acquisition was "north of $42 mil," what he's actually being paid - as distinct from the posting fee - is $36 million. Call it splitting hairs if you like. I prefer to call it "getting the facts right before you try to use them in an argument."

You're splitting hairs, Puig was signed last year (whether November or June). He is paid $42 mil for 7 years and the total cost to get 6 years of Ryu's service was $61 million. So, again, where was I wrong with this statement: "Puig and Ryu are first year guys, but both were paid north of $42 mil as FAs."

I also fail to see the point of this retort (outside of splitting hairs on the timing). Are you trying to say these guys should qualify as "homegrown" - even though the Dodgers spent a combined $100+ million to outbid everyone else and obtain them?

You cannot be fucking serious. Tim Federowicz is making $491k. Chris Withrow is making the minimum. Volquez and Wilson are both on pro-rated contracts.

I'll give you Winthrow. But neither Federowicz or Volquez have an AB or IP in this series. I could have added another 4-5 Cardinal players as well - but my frame of reference for the argument (once again) was this series. Even then, neither has even played this postseason. You are really reaching here.

And, again, that's ignoring Paco Rodriguez, who was a huge part of the team this year but was removed from the NLCS roster.

Hey, guys with a 13 ERA in the postseason and a 5+ ERA in September don't grow on trees. The Cards suck against leftys and he was left off the roster in favor of Carlos Marmol. Not sure what else to say about it. He's talented, but not nearly ready for the big stage.

Are you really going to play the cherry-picking game here? "Wahh, Dodgers are the big bad spend-all-the-monies team and here's a bunch of misinformation because I either can't be bothered to get my facts right, or I'm afraid that getting the facts right wouldn't help my case as much as willful misrepresentation would!"

So, you're argument is that because I didn't include three people who haven't played this series (one not even on the roster) and said that Puig was obtained last offseason and not last June, my argument that the Dodgers mostly bought the players on their team and didn't develop many is invalid? Makes sense...

[Arles]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's pretty unfair to knock the Dodgers spending after the ownership BS that we've had to deal with over the years. I didn't see the Cards getting taken over by MLB.

We had an ownership that stripped the value out of the team and pocketed it at the expense of the fans. Only the big spending (and subsequent winning) of the last year got the enthusiasm back for the team. A team and farm that had been just ripped bare of talent and marketable talent at that.

This is a much more reasoned response than the prior one. I agree that Magic and company had some rebuilding, but my point is it is hard to credit a team that basically outspent every other national league team by $50 million for "building a team". That's the same thing everyone gets on the Yankees for.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Honestly I think this is really all about how insufferable a fan base is. I completely understand why people dislike Boston teams.

What is the most hated college program on FOFC?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by molson

And in any event, I don't think billion-dollar franchises putting money into the product is like, unethical or anything. Would the Dodgers really be more likeable if Magic & Co. pocketed more money for themselves? By that logic the Marlins should be America's team.

They have just as many World Series titles since 1965.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by molson

And in any event, I don't think billion-dollar franchises putting money into the product is like, unethical or anything. Would the Dodgers really be more likeable if Magic & Co. pocketed more money for themselves? By that logic the Marlins should be America's team.

No, my point was simply that there is some charm/attractiveness to teams in Major League Baseball that don't spend $160+ mil and still field very competitive teams. It's the one sport where certain teams are at an enormous disadvantage so when one (like the As, Rays, Cards) can stay competitive - it is an accomplishment. As a Packer fan in football, it's not like Green Bay should get a pat on the back for being competitive despite massive market disadvantages to New York and Chicago when all teams share revenue and have a salary cap.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Honestly I think this is really all about how insufferable a fan base is. I completely understand why people dislike Boston teams.

What is the most hated college program on FOFC?

See I think the exact opposite. It's jealousy of the success of teams like Boston and St. Louis. I am in the minority of the Misosuri Tigers fanbase that doesn't hate Kansas. Why all the hate for Kansas? They win all the time. Same thing here the Brewers and Reds and Pirates have great seasons only to see the Cardinals advance in the playoffs. The story of the guy in Home Depot is such a lame reason why Cardinal fans are so insufferable or MBBF being the typical Mizzou fan. It's like someone saying they hate the White Sox because President Obama is a big fan. It's lazy.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by Arles

As, Rays, Cards

I love the lump-in here, those plucky Cards and the other small market teams.

Oh wait, the Cards have nearly doubled the other two in average payroll the last five years?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by panerd

See I think the exact opposite. It's jealousy of the success of teams like Boston and St. Louis. I am in the minority of the Misosuri Tigers fanbase that doesn't hate Kansas. Why all the hate for Kansas? They win all the time. Same thing here the Brewers and Reds and Pirates have great seasons only to see the Cardinals advance in the playoffs. The story of the guy in Home Depot is such a lame reason why Cardinal fans are so insufferable or MBBF being the typical Mizzou fan. It's like someone saying they hate the White Sox because President Obama is a big fan. It's lazy.

Giants have won as many WS as the Sox/Cards recently and no one (outside of normal rivalries) gets too bothered by them.