FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by nol

No big loss. Those darned things have the funniest habit of falling off or malfunctioning every single time an officer kills someone under potentially questionable circumstances.

Golly gosh darn it.

[Dutch]

What can happen to cops and what the media doesn't tell us and what we won't discuss here.

https://www.facebook.com/US.PoliceOf...5690577759146/

Black Lives Matter. They do. But this is a two way street. Sure it could've been a white guy just the same. But when the discussion is scoped out as white cops vs young black men. This is fair game. And I'd like to see the Black Lives Matter movement address this as well since they are so good at get media coverage. Use the platform for the greater good.

[jeff061]

Well it's not mentioned or discussed because I don't know what would be discussed. Who out there thinks incidents like that don't happen? I'm going with a big zero.

I do appreciate the link, because it's good to see it with my own eyes, but don't pretend like anyone's trying to say a police officer's job is simple or risk-free.

[Dutch]

It not being discussed really slants the argument. Micah X Johnson probably didn't understand the reality of what cops deal with on a day to day basis. What pushed him over the edge? A one-sided story.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It not being discussed really slants the argument. Micah X Johnson probably didn't understand the reality of what cops deal with on a day to day basis. What pushed him over the edge? A one-sided story.

He likely had a pretty tenuous grip on reality in general, as do you.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by nol

He likely had a pretty tenuous grip on reality in general, as do you.

And you, my friend. Just opposite sides.

[jeff061]

Micah X Johnson is a nut and no one is defending him. When a cop murders an innocent, "good" cops lie to defend their guilty brother and the shield. At no point in history does Micah get away with it or get anyones support(other than the occasional 13 year old). Up until very recently, a bad cop was almost guarenteed to get both.

You keep trying to draw mirror image comparisons between Micah and a bad cop. It doesn't work though.

[RainMaker]

I think the unions are a big issue when it comes to cops. It's so hard to fire them and even discipline them. It'd be much easier for cops to just be fired when a superior finds them unfit for duty. Similar to jobs in the private sector.

Irony of course being that the people who fight the hardest for unions are also the people fighting against police misconduct.

[EagleFan]

Had a situation in/near Philly tonight. Some people are complaining about it but I think the police (and the kids) handled it perfectly considering what the 911 call said.

The 911 call reported two kids with guns. The police showed up and detained them. Assessed the situation and found nothing to back up the 911 call and released them from the scene.

What's on the news... "They had their guns drawn on my baby!!! What if they were jumpy and shot him?!??!?!"

They responded correctly according to the 911 call, if there are reports of people with guns roaming the street they HAVE to answer it prepared for oh I don't know, someone with a gun... The kids handled it correctly and complied with the officers. Nothing negative happened, everyone goes on their way.

Instead of this being an "oh my gawd" moment it should actually be a teaching moment. A situation handled correctly by everyone!

[Ben E Lou]

What in the bloody blue hell?????????


Terrified Texas mom unsure why former Overland Park officer targeted her with threatening Facebook post | fox4kc.com

[EagleFan]

That's one messed up situation.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Had a situation in/near Philly tonight. Some people are complaining about it but I think the police (and the kids) handled it perfectly considering what the 911 call said.

The 911 call reported two kids with guns. The police showed up and detained them. Assessed the situation and found nothing to back up the 911 call and released them from the scene.

What's on the news... "They had their guns drawn on my baby!!! What if they were jumpy and shot him?!??!?!"

They responded correctly according to the 911 call, if there are reports of people with guns roaming the street they HAVE to answer it prepared for oh I don't know, someone with a gun... The kids handled it correctly and complied with the officers. Nothing negative happened, everyone goes on their way.

Instead of this being an "oh my gawd" moment it should actually be a teaching moment. A situation handled correctly by everyone!

That strategy didn't work out too well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

What in the bloody blue hell?????????


Terrified Texas mom unsure why former Overland Park officer targeted her with threatening Facebook post | fox4kc.com

Some folks want a race war and they'll be damned if something like distance get in the way of their hate.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by jeff061

At no point in history does Micah get away with it or get anyones support (other than the occasional 13 year old).

Originally Posted by noop

Some folks want a race war and they'll be damned if something like distance get in the way of their hate.

Clearly these two statements can't both be true.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Noop

Some folks want a race war and they'll be damned if something like distance get in the way of their hate.

To be somewhat fair, from TFA:

but FOX 4 did learn that Williams' profile picture was a person dressed in black holding a knife to a police officer's throat. Williams did confirm to FOX 4 that Facebook deleted her account.

Not like the officer's actions weren't disturbing as all get out, but it's not like all the hate is one sided.

[Dutch]

Video: 'Black Lives Matter' Protest Leader Calls For Shooting, Running Over Cops » Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Video: 'Black Lives Matter' Protest Leader Calls For Shooting, Running Over Cops » Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Oh cool we are linking to Alex Jones stuff now. Got it.

[jeff061]

for someone not in the know, what does that connote?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Subby

Oh cool we are linking to Alex Jones stuff now. Got it.

Don't know what that is.

Watch the video from Huffington Post for all I care...assuming it's there. Or don't watch it, if it's uncomfortable for you.

[jeff061]

Or:
Former Intel Officer Suspects Foul Play in Death of Antonin Scalia » Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
Which is written by the same guy as Dutch's link on Alex Jones site.

Amusing.

[Dutch]

The video isn't written by the site owner.

[Dutch]

Police Officer Tells People to Run Over Black Lives Matter Protesters - YouTube

This one might be more your style. YMMV.

[Dutch]

3 arrests made in alleged plot to harm officers, police say

[Thomkal]

several police in Baton Rouge have been shot while responding to a call. At least 3 dead so far, at least 7 injured.

[Edward64]

Pretty sad. Hope they do arrest the other 2 (possibly) and bring them to trial.

[CU Tiger]

So tonight at 7 the is a BLM rally in the next"town" over from me. It might as well be my hometown, as we live in a "town" of 200 with nothing more than a dollar general... my Kids attend school in this town, the grocery store is there etc.

So no big deal, right?

Well I hope so. This town has a bad race history. Unofficially it was the last highschool to integrate in the country, in 1982. So a tenuous race relation is the norm. Our local police is full of corrupt idiots, and I fully expect them to escalate the situation. Plus a group of high schoolers have organized an ALM ( all lived matter) rally on the same street and Facebook invite feature a prominent Confederate flag...sigh.

I mean nothing good can come out of this. I would love to be able to go watch from a voyeur standpoint, but common sense dictates I'll fire up the smoker and hang around the farm.

[rjolley]

Yeah, CU, that doesn't sound like a good situation. I hope cooler heads prevail, but the way things are going, it doesn't seem like that will be possible.

On the Baton Rouge incident, very sad. Prayers for the families of those officers. From a report I saw, this may be a case of the cops doing their jobs and responding to a gun fight, not a case of them being directly targeted due to the events of the past 2 weeks. No matter the reason, I hope the assailants are brought to justice swiftly.

[NobodyHere]

I'm beginning to think BLM is a hate group

[rjolley]

Why is that? BLM hasn't condoned any violence or any actions against other races. There are hate groups for all races, but BLM hasn't been one of them at this point.

[NobodyHere]

They chant phrases like 'fry them like bacon'. How is that not hate speech?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I'm beginning to think BLM is a hate group

The sane folks that figured that obvious fact out a long time ago will prepare a welcome kit, just in case you complete your journey.

[rjolley]

I agree, that is a hateful statement. Hate to hear that was used in a protest. Was that in a march against particular police officers who were involved in an excessive brutality case?

[nol]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I'm beginning to think BLM is a hate group

Caught your blog post on this matter the other day.

[cuervo72]

Remember nol -- everything is black and white. Some Muslims are radicalized, hence they all are dangerous. Some associating with the BLM movement are violent and hateful, so they're all lawless thugs who want to kill whitey. And if you don't see that, you're an ignorant, stupid piece of trash.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Remember nol -- everything is black and white. Some Muslims are radicalized, hence they all are dangerous. Some associating with the BLM movement are violent and hateful, so they're all lawless thugs who want to kill whitey. And if you don't see that, you're an ignorant, stupid piece of trash.

And yet you (and nol) have such great insights about how all officers think and what's collectively wrong with law enforcement agencies and individual officers.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

Caught your blog post on this matter the other day.

When I clicked on that link it accidentally took me to an article about your contributions to this thread.

Area Man Carefully Weighs One Side Of Argument - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Some associating with the BLM movement are violent and hateful but they're all ignorantly stumbling around like lemmings, providing aid & comfort to the very worst amongst us.

Fixed that for you.

My feelings about providing aid & comfort to the enemy are pretty well established.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Remember nol -- everything is black and white. Some Muslims are radicalized, hence they all are dangerous. Some associating with the BLM movement are violent and hateful, so they're all lawless thugs who want to kill whitey. And if you don't see that, you're an ignorant, stupid piece of trash.

All I have seen in this thread is black and white arguments from both sides. Won't list the names as they aren't that hard to figure out. Seems like when somebody like Molson or Rainmaker introduces nuance at all they get jumped on by whatever side they "offend" more. How about overzealous cops are assholes, people who shoot random cops are assholes, Muslims who kill innocent people are assholes, Christians who kill innocent people are assholes...

Locally to me I thought it was relatively simple to figure out during the Ferguson stuff. The people who came out during the day and protested generally had noble intentions. Past midnight they generally did not.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by molson

And yet you (and nol) have such great insights about how all officers think and what's collectively wrong with law enforcement agencies and individual officers.

So, would you say that law enforcement is perfect and currently beyond reproach? I'm saying there are bad cops. It is the responsibility of good cops or the system to either make those cops good, or get rid of them.

(Yes. Yes, I have said how all officers think. You're smart, or at least I think you are. You know I haven't said that. That or you've convinced yourself that I have, because I dare criticize anyone within the system that you've worked in.)

Similarly, it is the responsibility of BLM to distance themselves from the bad actors who would latch onto their name.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by panerd

All I have seen in this thread is black and white arguments from both sides. Won't list the names as they aren't that hard to figure out. Seems like when somebody like Molson or Rainmaker introduces nuance at all they get jumped on by whatever side they "offend" more. How about overzealous cops are assholes, people who shoot random cops are assholes, Muslims who kill innocent people are assholes, Christians who kill innocent people are assholes...

Locally to me I thought it was relatively simple to figure out during the Ferguson stuff. The people who came out during the day and protested generally had noble intentions. Past midnight they generally did not.

Oh for crying out loud - you are crediting RainMaker for introducing nuance.

But yes - assholes are assholes. Whatever the group, we should not let assholes define the group.

What I also don't want to see are assholes influencing the group to breed more assholes.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So, would you say that law enforcement is perfect and currently beyond reproach? I'm saying there are bad cops. It is the responsibility of good cops or the system to either make those cops good, or get rid of them.

Give me a break. I'm the only one here that has both acknowledged the issues and pointed to the specific things that have improved matters to this point in many agencies, and other improvements that could be made. And I've also talked about some of the practical issues with some of the other suggested solutions posted here, like stripping police officers of their constitutional rights because of all the wrong they've done. All you offered is your bullshit snark about how it's the good cops' fault too because they don't stop everything. If it's good cops' fault when a bad cop does something, than why isn't BLM responsible for the actions of the those violent actors in that group? I don't think it is at all, I've spoken positively of BLM here, but I'm just fascinated how you can turn on and off that switch of group judgment depending on the group. That's exactly what bad cops and bad prosecutors do.

Edit: Identifying good officers and encouraging them to apply/stay on, and identifying bad officers and getting rid of them is definitely critical. It's not a perfect science, and an officer committing a crime doesn't prove that the best process available wasn't being used. Despite everyone's best efforts, lots of teachers molest kids. It doesn't mean there was some conscious conspiracy of those in charge to promote molesting kids. But that job of finding the best possible police officers in a community is definitely going to get tougher. With the violence directed at law enforcement officers, it definitely makes that job less appealing, if you have other options. Smaller applicant pools mean less qualified officers and a greater risk of more incompetent officers. Some agencies could definitely afford to scale down, but some can't. And some could but aren't going to because of the violence and threats.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Oh for crying out loud - you are crediting RainMaker for introducing nuance.

But yes - assholes are assholes. Whatever the group, we should not let assholes define the group.

What I also don't want to see are assholes influencing the group to breed more assholes.

Yes. The group name is black lives matter and yet they don't care about any black homicide victims except for those killed by white cops. It's a very confusing group name and purpose is it not?

I also think he is spot on in the terrorism threads but it always derails to some sort of excuses about whether it is true that Islam plays any role in people involved in suicide attacks. Complete head in sand from a lot on this board. (And I will be the first to say US foreign policy and Isreali foreign policy are above Islam but to ignore Islam like the truck driver and Orlando shooter just happened to be Muslim is astounding)

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yes. The group name is black lives matter and yet they don't care about any black homicide victims except for those killed by white cops. It's a very confusing group name and purpose is it not?

The thing is, THEY DO. But nothing we have argued about for 1,000 pages can convince some people that they do. This is why this argument gets so frustrating to me. That canard keeps getting trotted out and it just serves to hand-wave away any other issues. Yes, there are problems in those communities (that are not helped by a system which works to keep them in a cycle of poverty, or incarceration).

Who is going to help alleviate the violence problem though? Are they going to do it themselves? No. That's what police are for. How can they have any confidence that the police will help with that problem though if they don't have any confidence that the police even care about their well-being (vs keeping them in check so they don't become a problem to others)?

[digamma]

Yeah, I don't remember the thread--hell probably this one, but someone went through and pulled out a lot of articles about protests re: Chicago or gang violence and homicide in general. This is an old trope.

[rjolley]

BLM has addressed Black on Black crime, in particular the killings in Chicago. Other groups have worked on that as well.

And the fact that there is Black on Black crime does not mean they cannot speak out about excessive use of force against minorities.

Panerd, Jon,

Do you feel the term Black Lives Matter means Only Black Lives Matter? Would the name being Black Lives Matter, Too make you feel like it's more inclusive? If the name of the group is what's causing a problem, would Lives Matter work better?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Do you feel the term Black Lives Matter means Only Black Lives Matter? Would the name being Black Lives Matter, Too make you feel like it's more inclusive? If the name of the group is what's causing a problem, would Lives Matter work better?

The name is irrelevant. For folks like Jon, it doesn't matter what you call it, because what he's going to hear is "Scum Lives Matter."

And that has nothing to do with racism. That has everything to do with Jon's love - and the love of those like him - for a police state, and the concomitant assumption that if the police shoot somebody, that somebody necessarily had it coming. That they were worthless scumbags without whom the world is better off.

For others, the insistence that "Black Lives Matter" should be more inclusive of ALL lives misses the forest for the trees. It ignores the fact that minority lives have historically been marginalized, often because those minorities lack political power. "All Lives Matter" insists that, in addition to that historical marginalization, minority groups should be responsible for protesting police mistreatment of the majority, as well. "If you're going to protest excessive force by law enforcement officers, you're not allowed to have a preference for your community." That may or may not be explicitly stated, but that's absolutely the message. "You can't stand for your community unless you stand for ours."

Meanwhile, when a Philando Castile or a Tamir Rice are killed, around whom does the white community, in general, rally? It isn't the Castiles or the Rices. It's around the law enforcement community. "Wait and see. Maybe they were thugs and had it coming. Don't rush to judge the cops."

"All Lives Matter" demands that Black people water down their own message by taking up the cause of White police mistreatment as well, but there's never a quid pro quo. It's a one-way street.

When someone responds to "Black Lives Matter" with "ALL Lives Matter," they may genuinely think they're being a good person, but all they're doing is feeding the shell game.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

"If you're going to protest excessive force by law enforcement officers, you're not allowed to have a preference for your community."

If the idea is to come together than YES that is what the protest should be, about all instances. It's pretty short sighted to not be able to see that.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

If the idea is to come together than YES that is what the protest should be, about all instances. It's pretty short sighted to not be able to see that.

Great. Have any of the "All Lives Matter" folks been out there protesting police shootings of your Castiles and Rices because "all lives matter"?

Or have they been sitting at home bitching about how "Black Lives Matter" protesters won't take up the mantle of White lives while they're at it?

If the "All Lives Matter" crowd were serious about "coming together," then they would be right there marching in lockstep demanding accountability when excessive force is used. Instead, they're not protesting excessive force.

They're counter-protesting "Black Lives Matter" because their feelings are hurt over the Black community taking greater exception to Black people being killed by police than to White people (because, y'know, White folk had to worry about extrajudicial killings for about a century there after the civil war, so whites are ABSOLUTELY a vulnerable group who need someone to speak up for them.).

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

And yet you (and nol) have such great insights about how all officers think and what's collectively wrong with law enforcement agencies and individual officers.

I know, you even told me so yourself.

Originally Posted by molson

So what's your solution to all this? I bet it's not very different than mine, and the things I actually try to do. The only difference is the rhetoric.

Do I have to do your job for you too?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

The name is irrelevant. For folks like Jon, it doesn't matter what you call it, because what he's going to hear is "Scum Lives Matter."

And that has nothing to do with racism. That has everything to do with Jon's love - and the love of those like him - for a police state, and the concomitant assumption that if the police shoot somebody, that somebody necessarily had it coming. That they were worthless scumbags without whom the world is better off.

For others, the insistence that "Black Lives Matter" should be more inclusive of ALL lives misses the forest for the trees. It ignores the fact that minority lives have historically been marginalized, often because those minorities lack political power. "All Lives Matter" insists that, in addition to that historical marginalization, minority groups should be responsible for protesting police mistreatment of the majority, as well. "If you're going to protest excessive force by law enforcement officers, you're not allowed to have a preference for your community." That may or may not be explicitly stated, but that's absolutely the message. "You can't stand for your community unless you stand for ours."

Meanwhile, when a Philando Castile or a Tamir Rice are killed, around whom does the white community, in general, rally? It isn't the Castiles or the Rices. It's around the law enforcement community. "Wait and see. Maybe they were thugs and had it coming. Don't rush to judge the cops."

"All Lives Matter" demands that Black people water down their own message by taking up the cause of White police mistreatment as well, but there's never a quid pro quo. It's a one-way street.

When someone responds to "Black Lives Matter" with "ALL Lives Matter," they may genuinely think they're being a good person, but all they're doing is feeding the shell game.

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Great. Have any of the "All Lives Matter" folks been out there protesting police shootings of your Castiles and Rices because "all lives matter"?

Or have they been sitting at home bitching about how "Black Lives Matter" protesters won't take up the mantle of White lives while they're at it?

If the "All Lives Matter" crowd were serious about "coming together," then they would be right there marching in lockstep demanding accountability when excessive force is used. Instead, they're not protesting excessive force.

They're counter-protesting "Black Lives Matter" because their feelings are hurt over the Black community taking greater exception to Black people being killed by police than to White people (because, y'know, White folk had to worry about extrajudicial killings for about a century there after the civil war, so whites are ABSOLUTELY a vulnerable group who need someone to speak up for them.).

These are two absolutely fantastic posts. I cannot agree with them enough!

I mean do people go against Martin Luther King, Jr. because he focused on his own community? I mean they did at the time, even accusing him of encouraging division (the Letter from the Birmingham Jail is about that). Nowadays it is usually gauche to criticize King's tactics because we see that he was morally correct in his position. But he did focus on his own community. When your community is marginalized, why is it wrong to try to raise them to the same level as the rest of society before you are required to take up the banner for everyone?