The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I mean, I get that you're trying to make the most gracious case for the "my freedoms" crowd that can't quite elocute the depths of their feelings, but I think it's worth something that you can't define the threat either.

I'm not trying to be overly gracious to them. I've said repeatedly that I think they're wrong; that's just besides the point. I could define the threat more as well and have done that somewhat in other posts, but that's also besides the point, which is that society will unavoidably change and it's not inherently wrong to include those changes in the calculus of what actions are appropriate now.

Originally Posted by sterlingice

let's keep bringing up these protests that were happening a month, a month and a half ago because we don't like them.

Except of course that I've said nothing against those protests in this discussion, and maintained support for their choice to do what they did. Then, now, and in the future. I disagree with a sizable chunk of what the protestors stand for, while supporting others of their goals, but that doesn't matter here. They don't owe me or anyone else a justification for their beliefs in terms of them being a valid matter for protest; that's entirely for them to determine, as it should be.

[ISiddiqui]

I would also note that a few European cities also had massive BLM protests with little to no upswing in cases as a result. If the NE US is not enough of a counter, fwiw.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[JPhillips]

I don't understand how criticism is different from saying it's not a valid perspective. To me, that's just extreme criticism. If you see it differently, what criticism is allowed before it jeopardizes a free society?

[thesloppy]

We're still having nightly protests in Portland FWIW, six weeks going, but that's what you get in Little Beirut. Our covid cases have started increasing statewide recently, to the point that we make some of the hype reports in terms of percentage increases, but we're still in the bottom 10 states in terms of per capita cases & deaths.

...the numbers have stayed so low in Oregon, even when Washington initially got hit hard, that I actually worry that effectively nobody has any antibodies and our first wave might have not have even hit yet.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Disclaimer: I don't wear a mask when I'm outside, and I'm still pretty much avoiding public spaces, so for me personally the prospect of wearing a mask is like 2-4 hours of random errands per week, usually never for more than an hour at a time. I think the seat belt comparison is apt, I simply don't understand how something done so easily & for one's own safety is causing so many people such issues, but my mask regime probably wouldn't meet the standards of a lot of folks either.

....I am also convinced that a significant number of mask-deniers have been so resistant to the idea from the beginning that they're likely unclear on the use/mandate and think they're being told to wear them 24/7, outside and/or in their homes and as a result they are resisting rules that they've invented themselves, which are ironically much stricter than reality.

Like a half-hour after I wrote this I just read that Oregon has today extended their mask mandate to outside "when you cannot maintain a 6-foot distance from people outside their households"

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I have said it's wrong to criticize them hypocritically and not give them the same space to express themselves that we do to other groups who believe in other causes.

Not wearing a mask IS NOT A CAUSE. It is like people who think that freedom of speech means they should get to say heinous racist shit without repercussions.

And it's not just not a cause because I say so. The end result of a cause is generally some kind of win for society or mankind. What is the endpoint here? "We're free to kill the infirmed and co-morbid without repercussion!"?

If hyper-selfishness were a cause, maybe.

By now, many of us have seen the Facebook/Twitter post about multiple people saying that they'll never wear a mask because it's a win for the left, then when they saw Trump wearing one, they asked "how do I get one!" This is not a cause, it's politicized Oppositional Defiant Disorder run fucking amok.

And to say they're not given space to express themselves is an absolutely laughable claim. They are free to express themselves all they want, and people are free to shit all over it. It is not hypocritical in the least, because personally I expect every leftist protest to be shit on just as much at this point. It's the price of politics in the social media age.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Butter

Not wearing a mask IS NOT A CAUSE.

Originally Posted by Butter

to say they're not given space to express themselves is an absolutely laughable claim.

If they can't define for themselves what their cause is, they aren't being given said space.

Originally Posted by Butter

The end result of a cause is generally some kind of win for society or mankind. What is the endpoint here?

Already answered multiple times. It isn't necessarily what you assume it is here.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Butter

Not wearing a mask IS NOT A CAUSE.

The dumbest people made it one and now we're living in a plague country that is the laughingstock of the world.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

If they can't define for themselves what their cause is, they aren't being given said space.

Already answered multiple times. It isn't necessarily what you assume it is here.

Thanks for not addressing any of my relevant points and wasting everyone's time. It's been great

[Brian Swartz]

Huh? I've been constantly addressing most of the relevant point I've seen, and in return have mostly gotten people shadowboxing arguments I never made. That's really a hilarious accusation. Lathum addressed the core issues early on and we agreed to disagree. That was a productive exchange. Someone else did in the other thread as well. The rest, not so much.

[JPhillips]

The WH is full of reprehensible cowards. Fire Fauci if you want, but don't smear the man while he's still running Infectious Diseases for the CDC.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Huh? I've been constantly addressing most of the relevant point I've seen, and in return have mostly gotten people shadowboxing arguments I never made. That's really a hilarious accusation.

Dude you're a smart guy clearly, but you're coming off as someone who likes to talk to hear themselves talk and participate in some really uninteresting mental gymnastics in this thread. Not sure what your intention is, but I made MYSELF clear that your assertion that anything can be a cause but they just have to be given space to define it is... specious, to be kind.

If you're confused about why people are making arguments against "arguments you never made" then maybe you're not being as clear as you thought, eh?

[Butter]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The WH is full of reprehensible cowards. Fire Fauci if you want, but don't smear the man while he's still running Infectious Diseases for the CDC.

They're just trying to get him to resign, because that's the Trump M.O.

[Lathum]

My kids went swimming after dinner tonight. When it was time to get out I kept trying to tell them and they continued to go under water so they couldn’t hear me and didn’t have to comply. I feel like that sums up this administration.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Because it's fundamental to the very idea of a free and fair society that each person gets to decide that for themselves

TBF I agree with your point about who decides validity (although not 100% sure how it became a topic)

However, inherent within your own argument is that you shouldn’t argue with people who disagree with it, as you are then yourself deciding whether their position is valid or not...

Plus it ends the ever decreasing circles we’re currently in

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Lathum

My kids went swimming after dinner tonight. When it was time to get out I kept trying to tell them and they continued to go under water so they couldn’t hear me and didn’t have to comply. I feel like that sums up this administration.

Heh sorry Lathum sorry that your kids are Republicans

[Qwikshot]

'I thought this was a hoax': A COVID-party guest learned coronavirus was real on their deathbed | TheHill

[JPhillips]

Ivanka is starting a new ad campaign, Find Something New.

This can't be real life.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Ivanka is starting a new ad campaign, Find Something New.

This can't be real life.

I wasn't sure from this post what the context was. After finding this tweet - now it's a lot more funny (in a gallows humor sort of way):

More than ever our #PledgetoAmericasWorkers is focused on helping Americans ���� bolster skills to find new jobs + navigate career transitions.

Today we are launching the #FindSomethingNew ad campaign!https://t.co/gS1JL50lcU
— Ivanka Trump (@IvankaTrump) July 14, 2020

I mean, really, it's not necessarily a bad message if part of a package: "We're launching our new jobs program which gives you grants for going back to school and a new, better federal job search website". It wound sound like a quasi-lovable attempt by underpaid government workers to do an ad campaign (EDIT: Looks like it is! It's from the Ad Council).

But all it looks like is just the new website and ad campaign - not a lot of actual tangible resources (grants, new federal jobs, free training, etc) for people. It's just an aggregator of a bunch of things that already exist put together in a single website. I mean, that's not nothing, but it's not a lot either. So it just comes off as cold and callous. Was #Bootstraps already taken?

SI

[ISiddiqui]

She just wants to keep her opportunities open for a position in the Biden Administration .

[BYU 14]

This is a momentous day folks, at last, a Trump tells the truth!

Bye Don Jr: Love Me, Daddy! - YouTube

[Ksyrup]

I want to say this is unbelievable, but this administration has sunk so low that pretty much everything is believable.

outrage:
HHS officials on Monday finalized a new data reporting protocol for hospitals, which will eliminate the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as a data recipienthttps://t.co/xy0Z0KRdR8

— Greg Dworkin (@DemFromCT) July 14, 2020

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Ivanka is starting a new ad campaign, Find Something New.

This can't be real life.

Someone here posted an article about how an Ivanka candidacy is possible if Trump say, drops out days before the election.

Might as well get ahead of that possibility.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Butter

If you're confused about why people are making arguments against "arguments you never made" then maybe you're not being as clear as you thought, eh?

Not necessarily. Sometimes the clash of worldviews occurs at a sufficiently fundamental level that one side of the debate or both don't/can't comprehend that the opposition is questioning assumptions that are so basic to them that never even think about those concepts. Over the course of my time on this forum I've come to realize that many have vastly differing ideas of what basic things even mean; we don't see concepts like fairness, equality, freedom, rights, socialism, capitalism, democracy, racism, etc. in something close enough to the same way to avoid regularly crossing wires in discussion. We just think too differently.

Certainly it's very possible for me to be unclear in wording of things or to overlook a point to which the answer is so self-evidently clear to me as to be a waste of time to comment on, but when I've said repeatedly in different ways that I'm not making a specific argument and then people keep assuming that I am, it's clear a discussion can't be productive going forward. It doesn't even matter at that point how one wishes to distribute the blame for the disconnect ... there's just not enough commonality to even understand, much less agree with each other.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

American exceptionalism is no more"- I would argue it is greatly damaged over the past 4 years. You have often posted about how it is still a place many want to come to. That has been true I would argue up until now. I have a number of immigrant members in my direct family - wife and children.

To level-set, my definition of American Exceptionalism is below. I posted a larger discussion in Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - The Trump Presidency – 2016 which included additional caveats from me.

American exceptionalism - New World Encyclopedia

The basis most commonly cited for American exceptionalism is the idea that the United States and its people hold a special place in the world, by offering opportunity and hope for humanity, derived from a unique balance of public and private interests governed by constitutional ideals that are focused on personal and economic freedom.

In prior conversations in this forum, there are many who do not believe in American Exceptionalism (dead or never had it). As an immigrant I do have a different perspective and it differs from many here who I assume are native born so I'm going to organize my thoughts into (1) immigrant & wannabee POV and (2) native-born POV.

(1) From an immigrant or immigrant-wannabee perspective, I've previously shared the below report. Latest nos. are from 2015-2017. Essentially 750M people want to move somewhere. Of that, 158M or 21% want to come to the US. This is almost greater than next 4 combined (Canada, Germany, France, Australia). Note the survey factors in Trump's early year.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245255/...e-migrate.aspx

The countries where potential migrants say they would like to move -- if they could -- have generally been the same for the past 10 years. In fact, roughly 18 countries attract two-thirds of all potential migrants worldwide.

Although the image of U.S. leadership took a beating between 2016 and 2017, the U.S. continues to be the most desired destination country for potential migrants, as it has since Gallup started tracking these patterns a decade ago.

People want to come to the US. They see something in the US.

* * * *

Gallup did not ask "why you want to move to US etc.". I did some googling and found many articles but none seemed scientific to me, they were personal opinions, others many statements but I did not see them reference a survey etc.

But to generalize, it's relative to where they are currently. They want to move to the US because they believe the US offers them/family something more than where they currently are.

So let me share my personal POV on why. It is basically why I think the US is "Exceptional":

1. Opportunity to do better. Study and/or work hard and with some luck, you/family have a better chance of doing better vs current/other country
2. Freedoms not found in majority of other countries (e.g. ability to say what you want, get higher learning). Relative safety, less corruption
3. Economic strength and wealth. Most things are cheaper in the US, our USD goes further in many countries
4. Diversity is accepted and discrimination as a minority can be bypassed, ignored etc. relatively easily in the "current era"
5. Leader in technological innovation (currently at least). This is where Google, Apple, Amazon, Oracle, IBM, Microsoft etc. originated. Other countries copy the US (however, I'd say we are losing this edge and we are probably not the leader in technology adoption)
6. And I'm going to toss a catch-all ... Life is relatively easy in the US as compared to many other countries

* * * *

I will reiterate, although Trump has definitely hurt the view of the US from immigrants and wannabes, I still contend he is a temporary speedbump. If he wins 2020 or his protoge in 2024, then we need to worry about a long-term Trump legacy but the odds are against it. Most foreigners I've spoken to recently make a distinction between Trump and regular US folks. Get us Joe or even traditional GOP president and things will revert back to normal.

* * * *

(2) For a native-born, much of what I stated above is not apparent and/or appreciated because they have different stories and experiences. I have the perspective of having lived in more "restrictive" countries and can compare. It would be great if everyone in the US could travel to a third-world country and see how fortunate we really are, even with all the problems we have.

So it is what it is, people will believe what they believe. My take is life is relatively easy compared to many other countries, and there are a ton of opportunities and support structure for people to do well in the US.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

American exceptionalism is no more"- I would argue it is greatly damaged over the past 4 years. You have often posted about how it is still a place many want to come to. That has been true I would argue up until now. I have a number of immigrant members in my direct family - wife and children.

I'm very interested in hearing your immigrant family members' perspective on American Exceptionalism and/or Land of Opportunity.

[JPhillips]

I think Trump was on this board a few weeks ago.

JUST IN: Asked by @CBS_Herridge about the death of George Floyd, and why African Americans still die at the hands of police, Trump answers, "So are white people."

Calling it a "terrible question," Trump says "more white people, by the way" are killed by police.

— Steven Portnoy (@stevenportnoy) July 14, 2020

[NobodyHere]

Is Trump actually wrong here?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Someone here posted an article about how an Ivanka candidacy is possible if Trump say, drops out days before the election.

Might as well get ahead of that possibility.

I would think Don Jr has the better chance. That party doesn't like women and a certain demographic of Trump voters don't like the Jews much either.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Is Trump actually wrong here?

Not so much wrong as worthless? The country is 75% white & any kind of demographic comparison of raw numbers serves no purpose. I doubt he would account for rape statistics in the same fashion.

[Qwikshot]

What a shitshow of a press conference.

So much whining.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

What a shitshow of a press conference.

So much whining.

I was watching MTP and they were showing the press conference in a small box but talking, interviewing as normal.

I changed to CNN hoping to hear leadership on the second wave but instead listened to him whine about Biden for about 5 min before thinking MTP was right and turned to another channel.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I changed to CNN hoping to hear leadership on the second wave

Why would you think you would hear any leadership from him?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Why would you think you would hear any leadership from him?

I didn't say "I thought I'd hear leadership on the second wave", I said "I hoped to hear leadership".

[JPhillips]

Trump destroying Jeff Sessions is one good outcome of this shit show.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Is Trump actually wrong here?

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Not so much wrong as worthless? The country is 75% white & any kind of demographic comparison of raw numbers serves no purpose. I doubt he would account for rape statistics in the same fashion.

Wait, you mean men commit more rapes than women?

Seriously, it's a complete strawman argument. Of course the majority will be shot more by Police than 13% of the population, just an obvious and overused talking point to totally marginalize the real issue and it's gotten old.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump destroying Jeff Sessions is one good outcome of this shit show.

Hopefully he drags McConnell with him at some point too.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I didn't say "I thought I'd hear leadership on the second wave", I said "I hoped to hear leadership".

I don't hope for the impossible

[miked]

I still cannot believe that all Covid data will be sent to the WH before the CDC. I mean, what the actual fuck?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by miked

I still cannot believe that all Covid data will be sent to the WH before the CDC. I mean, what the actual fuck?

But if you can't trust this administration, who can you trust?

SI

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by miked

I still cannot believe that all Covid data will be sent to the WH before the CDC. I mean, what the actual fuck?

Well, I really hope that they tell us exactly what we (you pick) want/need/neither we'll take what they give us and we'll like it.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I didn't say "I thought I'd hear leadership on the second wave", I said "I hoped to hear leadership".

I hope to see Jessica Alba each time I open my bedroom door. I think that is a more likely occurrence than the one you are hoping for.

[whomario]

Meanwhile the "Fauci was WRONG on EVERYTHING" campaign continues with an Op-Ed by Navarro with USA Today that also manages to be typically self congratulatory ("working feverishly", "record time") And yes, the claim is everything that Navarro ever interacted with him on. Then going on to base it on Media Statements including an article where literally everything was spot on

And this:

The risk of coronavirus in this country is still relatively low, but, as I said about the possibility of emerging into a pandemic, this could change. As of today, on the 17th of February, the risk is really relatively low. But we, the public health officials, have to take this seriously enough to be prepared for it changing and there being a pandemic.

becomes this:

Fauci was still telling the public the China virus was low risk.

If you don't (have to) care about large swaths of the public having a working brain, something is fucked.

And of course, Hydrochloroquine makes an apearance based on a single study (or rather retroactive tallying up) where the difference can be entirely explained by ... The better faring cohort also overwhelmingly (sth like 85% as opposed to 20 in the other grouping) getting a steroid proven to cause up to 50% reduction in a study in England.

[Edward64]

I think the cancel culture is arguably going too far in this case but with the current environment ... whatever keeps the extremist masses happy.

Unanue has the right to say what he said. People have they right to boycott if the wish. Ivanka technically made a bad as a government official but I had a good chuckle. Wonder what Smuckers thinks about this?

If it’s Goya, it has to be good.
Si es Goya, tiene que ser bueno. pic.twitter.com/9tjVrfmo9z

— Ivanka Trump (@IvankaTrump) July 15, 2020

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by whomario

Meanwhile the "Fauci was WRONG on EVERYTHING" campaign continues with an Op-Ed by Navarro with USA Today that also manages to be typically self congratulatory ("working feverishly", "record time") And yes, the claim is everything that Navarro ever interacted with him on. Then going on to base it on Media Statements including an article where literally everything was spot on

.

It is crazy that I still see Facebook posts that say, the Flu is deadlier and the only reason this is so bad in the US is to get Trump out of office. Greatest global conspiracy ever SMH.

[Ksyrup]

It's unbelievable. Some people I really like(d) were talking this crazy crap months ago and I stopped following them, including a really good CFB talk show host in TN. I just have no patience for willful stupidity. The "numbers are overblown, this is a hoax" crowd can go to hell.

[Ksyrup]

Well, apparently Kanye got his quick shot of attention and can go back to his genius lair for the time being.

[JPhillips]

I don't think Jones can win, but I look forward to months of these kinds of tweets.

You, scared of your own shadow: “Can an incumbent Democratic Senator win a red state?”

Us, ready to storm hell with a super-soaker: “Tuberville couldn’t score a TD for 2 weeks with 4 first rounders on his offense. He also lost to Vanderbilt.” #OneAlabama https://t.co/JsPkNu4uAe

— Alabama Democrats (@aldemocrats) July 15, 2020

[ISiddiqui]

I just want Jones to run a pro-Alabama campaign. Maybe barnstorm the state with Saban, LOL.

[JPhillips]

In Trump's rambling, incoherent mess of a speech yesterday he apparently complained that China was given most favored status but the U.S. wasn't.

Let that sink in for a while.