Yet another school shooting.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I didn't catch it if it was in the report, but I'd like to know who the commission thought should have taken action knowing that Arredondo was MIA (e.g. is the deputy sheriff typically the guy, or someone from the 10+ different law enforcement entities that was on site).

I've spent the last hour'ish wading through the report & sort of found the answer to this question (page 66)

Other people could have assumed command, including the next people in Uvalde CISD’s preassigned line of command for active shooter response or others on the scene with more experience or training. ALERRT training teaches that any law enforcement officer can assume command, that somebody must assume command, and that an incident commander can
transfer responsibility as an incident develops. That did not happen at Robb Elementary, and the lack of effective incident command is a major factor that caused other vital measures to be left undone. Also, the misinformation reported to officers on the outside likely prevented some of them from taking a more assertive role. For example, many officers were told to stay
out of the building because Chief Arredondo was inside a room with the attacker actively negotiating.

My off the cuff answer of "somebody, anybody" doesn't seem to have been that far off the mark

[QuikSand]

I know no better arguments for banning AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles
Than 400 cops being afraid to take on an 18 year old with one

— William Buecker (@wcbuecker) July 17, 2022

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Get ready. The shooter in the Indiana mall today was taken out by a citizen with a handgun. All the gun nuts will be publicly masturbating all over for the next week.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

First thing I said to my wife yesterday when I saw he was taken down by a citizen.

The only way I understand this line of thinking is because the NRA and gun ownership must be preserved at any and all costs for political reasons. Otherwise, this is as much a remedy for curing gun violence as having a bunch of people randomly walking around in public with ashtrays to put out cigarettes as a way to cure lung cancer.

[BYU 14]

Do these Idiots have any concept of timing? Or does the need to over compensate for a needle dick override all common sense.

I will NEVER give up my firearms. I will NEVER surrender my AR-15. If Democrats want to push an insane gun-grab, they can COME AND TAKE IT! pic.twitter.com/Yw6QVFqLg6

— Ronny Jackson (@RonnyJacksonTX) July 17, 2022

[larrymcg421]

"If they just complied, they wouldn't have been shot."

"If the government tries to take my guns, I'll shoot them!"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Do these Idiots have any concept of timing? Or does the need to over compensate for a needle dick override all common sense.

Guy who claims to be a law-abiding citizen says he will murder people if the laws are not to his liking.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

even tho the shooter is literally a gunnut like them

Was the gunman legal to carry his firearm right up until the moment he started firing?

I honestly don't know, but when the news says that he was taken down by a lawfully carrying gun owner, if the above is true, then the shooter was also a lawfully carrying gun owner, right up until the moment he decided to kill people and that strikes me a giant loophole in that logic.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Was the gunman legal to carry his firearm right up until the moment he started firing?

I honestly don't know, but when the news says that he was taken down by a lawfully carrying gun owner, if the above is true, then the shooter was also a lawfully carrying gun owner, right up until the moment he decided to kill people and that strikes me a giant loophole in that logic.

The correct answer is yes. The gunman was legal to carry until he decided to shoot.

Indiana House Bill 1296, which went into effect July 1, allows anyone over 18 who is not a felon and does not meet one of the other disqualifying factors to openly carry or conceal a handgunwithout a permit. Anyonecan also carry a rifle or shotgun without a permit.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The sense I got was "somebody, ANYBODY".

Chief Arredondo's testimony on the same page is unbelievable. Reminder he is the police chief for the school district.

My approach and thought was responding as a police officer. And so I didn't title myself. But once I got in there and we took that fire, back then, I realized we need some things. We've got to get in that door. We need an extraction tool. We need those keys ... As far as I'm talking about the command part...the people that went in, there was a big group of them outside the door. I have no idea who they were and how they walked in or anything kind of — I wasn't given that direction,"

Huh? Are you kidding me? You are the police chief, not just a police officer. Even if you want to lead the charge, before you go you have to tell someone that are the next in line!

I have a minuscule amount of sympathy for the other officers especially those coming from outside Uvalde. Unless there was a Chief of something among the responders from the other agencies, it was be surprising to me if anyone else would have stepped up in that situation.

[PilotMan]

What's done is done. You can't bring back dead kids, it was a mistake, get over it. Let the guy keep towing that thin blue line for the public and stop trying to slander a good man and community leader. Stop the witch hunt!




***this is what the R's would say if trump was you know....indirectly responsible for the deaths of innocents, because of his own actions.***



Spoiler alert....

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Guy who claims to be a law-abiding citizen says he will murder people if the laws are not to his liking.

I've seen so many edge-lord facebook posts about being an outlaw when the dems start taking guns.

These are just guys that fetishize the old west, masturbate to Tombstone, and "would have served but they would have been kicked out for punching a drill instructor for getting in their face" or any one of the other dozens of reasons these guys have for not joining.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I've seen so many edge-lord facebook posts about being an outlaw when the dems start taking guns.

These are just guys that fetishize the old west, masturbate to Tombstone, and "would have served but they would have been kicked out for punching a drill instructor for getting in their face" or any one of the other dozens of reasons these guys have for not joining.

TOMBSTONE IS A MOVIE WHERE THE PROTAGONISTS ARE LITERALLY ENFORCING GOVERNMENT MANDATED GUN CONTROL!

[Edward64]

I don't know how Arrendondo is still chief. I assume whoever wanted to wait for the report, but that came out 2 days ago so he should have been terminated yesterday.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

2) Remember all the criticism about the officer who was seen checking his phone / reading texts while standing around in the hallway? Indeed he WAS texting .. with his wife, a teacher at the school who was severely wounded in the attack. That officer was eventually disarmed and removed from the building, with the implication that he was taken outside because he didn't want to just stand around with his thumb up his ass like most of the nearly FOUR HUNDRED officers on the scene.

His wife was eventually transported to a hospital after the scene was secured but died en route.

Here is the moment they stopped him from going in and trying to save his wife and a bunch of children.

Wow. This is the moment when police kept Uvalde officer Ruben Ruiz, gun in-hand, from storming the classroom where his wife had been shot. (Via @davenewworld_2)

“She said she’s shot!” pic.twitter.com/wdcXLWVhqt

— Sawyer Hackett (@SawyerHackett) July 20, 2022

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't know how Arrendondo is still chief. I assume whoever wanted to wait for the report, but that came out 2 days ago so he should have been terminated yesterday.

Although the Superintendent has now called for his dismissal (could happen Saturday in a called meeting), same super. pointed out Harrell said Monday that the police chief was a contract employee who could not be fired at will.

Which basically fits with what I figured was the answer to your question: paperwork

[RainMaker]

I can't imagine wanting to keep the job either. Everyone in town hates you. You'd figure move cross country or something and start fresh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I can't imagine wanting to keep the job either. Everyone in town hates you. You'd figure move cross country or something and start fresh.

He only resigned from his city council post after they refused to grant the indefinite leave of absence he requested (he'd attended no meetings since being elected, snuck in to be sworn in).

He seems to be the sort that will drag things out as long as he can until his hand is forced.

(Basically he resigned when he realized that he either had to attend meetings or be removed from office)

[PilotMan]

Must be a Republican.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Although the Superintendent has now called for his dismissal (could happen Saturday in a called meeting), same super. pointed out Harrell said Monday that the police chief was a contract employee who could not be fired at will.

Which basically fits with what I figured was the answer to your question: paperwork

I'd think any employee/contractor can be fired for "cause". That should be easily defensible with the official report out.

[flere-imsaho]

Depends on the contract.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'd think any employee/contractor can be fired for "cause". That should be easily defensible with the official report out.

But in an overwrought world filled with "HR specialists" and lawyers, there's typically an absurd number of steps involved in actually getting rid of somebody.

And he's a government employee so it's almost certainly several times worse.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But in an overwrought world filled with "HR specialists" and lawyers, there's typically an absurd number of steps involved in actually getting rid of somebody.

And he's a government employee so it's almost certainly several times worse.

This

[miami_fan]

I wonder if Officer Ruiz is still disarmed. I am doing a great deal of projecting on this but I feel like the only thing that would keep me from going down a very dark path would be knowing I had to be there for my child.

[Edward64]

I was wondering how some of those 400+ LEOs felt now with the report out, especially those in position to "take charge" or should have known better.

Embarrassed, shame, denial (not my fault), anger at fellow LEOs ... probably all of the above but with differing degrees.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I was wondering how some of those 400+ LEOs felt now with the report out, especially those in position to "take charge" or should have known better.

Embarrassed, shame, denial (not my fault), anger at fellow LEOs ... probably all of the above but with differing degrees.

I'd probably cut that number in half just based on ... how stuff tends to work?

Many of those on scene -- and I say this even as a law enforcement supporter generally -- were there simply because they didn't want to miss out on saying they were there / figured they oughta be at something that seemed big*.

Then there's the reality of how almost any situation works. Probably only a handful out of 400 that realistically could have taken control. Privates don't tend to follow other privates.

Maybe there's a scenario where if a few lowest ranking officers had tried to assert themselves then it would have prompted somebody who outranked them to step up (even if out of simply feeling insulted by their juniors) and somebody above them steps up, and so on. But we're talking about 74 minutes from start to end. The kind of dynamics I'm talking about here would almost certainly have played out only over hours, not minutes.

Realistically, there were probably no more than a dozen -- and I figure that's too high -- people who could have taken control definitively. A few feds, a few state, maybe 1-2 locals.

edit to add: And we saw what happened when a junior officer tried to be assertive ... they escorted him outside.

(*note: I'm not diminishing the event at all, I'm simply saying that at the time most of the people with badges arrived they didn't have a clue what was/wasn't happening)

[Ksyrup]

Bo Jackson donated $170,000 to pay for funerals of Uvalde victims. https://t.co/1GhkFjdbmD

— ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk) July 22, 2022

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I wonder if Officer Ruiz is still disarmed. I am doing a great deal of projecting on this but I feel like the only thing that would keep me from going down a very dark path would be knowing I had to be there for my child.

I'm guessing the other officers in town are hoping he isn't armed.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd probably cut that number in half just based on ... how stuff tends to work?

Many of those on scene -- and I say this even as a law enforcement supporter generally -- were there simply because they didn't want to miss out on saying they were there / figured they oughta be at something that seemed big*.

Then there's the reality of how almost any situation works. Probably only a handful out of 400 that realistically could have taken control. Privates don't tend to follow other privates.

Maybe there's a scenario where if a few lowest ranking officers had tried to assert themselves then it would have prompted somebody who outranked them to step up (even if out of simply feeling insulted by their juniors) and somebody above them steps up, and so on. But we're talking about 74 minutes from start to end. The kind of dynamics I'm talking about here would almost certainly have played out only over hours, not minutes.

Realistically, there were probably no more than a dozen -- and I figure that's too high -- people who could have taken control definitively. A few feds, a few state, maybe 1-2 locals.

edit to add: And we saw what happened when a junior officer tried to be assertive ... they escorted him outside.

(*note: I'm not diminishing the event at all, I'm simply saying that at the time most of the people with badges arrived they didn't have a clue what was/wasn't happening)

Yeah, I agree with you. Probably a dozen that should have taken control, taken the initiative.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aaaand pretty much on cue ..

Uvalde shooting: School board delays meeting on police chief Arredondo

[Edward64]

At least he's on unpaid leave.

If I was on the school board and knowing we're getting criticism for not acting quick enough, I'd say "Our attorney has told us we need to follow these legal steps/procedures and this is the approx timeline. We promise we will update you on our progress"

I think most people (other than the parents of course) will understand if legal processes need to be followed. But the seemingly lack of transparency (what needs to be done by approx when) makes them look unwillingly, delaying etc. to do the termination.

Uvalde school Superintendent Hal Harrell had recommended Arredondo’s termination “for good cause,” according to the original agenda.

Officials also placed Arredondo on unpaid administrative leave until the board schedules another meeting to discuss his employment status. He had been on paid leave.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd probably cut that number in half just based on ... how stuff tends to work?

Many of those on scene -- and I say this even as a law enforcement supporter generally -- were there simply because they didn't want to miss out on saying they were there / figured they oughta be at something that seemed big*.

Then there's the reality of how almost any situation works. Probably only a handful out of 400 that realistically could have taken control. Privates don't tend to follow other privates.

Maybe there's a scenario where if a few lowest ranking officers had tried to assert themselves then it would have prompted somebody who outranked them to step up (even if out of simply feeling insulted by their juniors) and somebody above them steps up, and so on. But we're talking about 74 minutes from start to end. The kind of dynamics I'm talking about here would almost certainly have played out only over hours, not minutes.

Realistically, there were probably no more than a dozen -- and I figure that's too high -- people who could have taken control definitively. A few feds, a few state, maybe 1-2 locals.

edit to add: And we saw what happened when a junior officer tried to be assertive ... they escorted him outside.

(*note: I'm not diminishing the event at all, I'm simply saying that at the time most of the people with badges arrived they didn't have a clue what was/wasn't happening)

This is what I was saying earlier. Those LEOs coming from outside of Uvalde were ostensibly walking into someone else's office as support staff. I think you are being generous with the dynamics needing to play out over hours. I think that of the choices that Edward gave, I would choose "not my fault" without denial. In theory, yes someone else could have taken charge. In practice, well that is not the way that structure is suppose to work.

[albionmoonlight]

Hey Midtown fans - due to circumstances beyond our control, Music Midtown will no longer be taking place this year. We were looking forward to reuniting in September and hope we can all get back to enjoying the festival together again soon. pic.twitter.com/cI5M37UNW8

— Music Midtown (@MusicMidtown) August 1, 2022

GA legislature wouldn't let them ban guns from the festival, so they decided not to have it.

You may agree or disagree with it. But note that this is what happens when governments don't let private entities decide how to run their own businesses.

[BYU 14]

I agree with it, these are the same people (in government) that scream about overreach when it involves the opposing party, yet they are very comfortable doing the same when it fits their agenda. So this is what they get.

[GrantDawg]

I agree as well. I am shocked that so many movie/tv productions have stayed despite the gun and abortion laws. Selfishly I hope they continue to grow here, and that helps vote the nut jobs out of office. My town has three large movie studios on top of several smaller production companies. It would hurt me personally pretty bad if that stuff shut down.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[cuervo72]

Yay guns!

University of West Georgia educator charged with murder in death of incoming student

[NobodyHere]

So was there any reason why he targeted this particular victim?

[Ksyrup]

From what I read yesterday, it's an odd story that raises a lot of questions. She's an incoming freshman, so it's not like he had her in one of his classes. It's not obvious that he met her through the school. Maybe a family/friend acquaintance? Maybe he met her during freshman orientation? Sounds like a dude in mid-life crisis who didn't want this 18 year old hanging around with other guys. Whether there was an actual relationship or something he made up in his head, who knows?

[cuervo72]

Yeah, I wasn't sure exactly what was going on there. In one place I thought I saw it stated that he just picked the car at random to shoot at and she happened to be in it. "Police said they don't think Sigman had contact with anyone in Jones’ car before the shooting. They also say Sigman was intoxicated." Or, pissed off drunk guy shoots at objects to let off steam. Oops, said object contained a person.

Of course then I saw some wonder if she'd spurned advances from him or something similar. Who knows at this point, I'm sure more will come out. But either way...

[Ksyrup]

In the original article it says he threatened someone else in the area. Maybe it was just a coincidence they were both connected to the school and he took out his intoxicated anger at whoever happened to be in that car.

[NobodyHere]

Are there laws against carrying guns while intoxicated? Maybe state by state?
If there isn't there should be.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

In the original article it says he threatened someone else in the area. Maybe it was just a coincidence they were both connected to the school and he took out his intoxicated anger at whoever happened to be in that car.

Yeah, I read he was arguing with some staff at an Italian restaurant (maybe they cut off his "all you can eat pasta" because by looking at him he's probably had enough). Then he walks into a parking garage and just shoots into a car killing the victim?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

But note that this is what happens when governments don't let private entities decide how to run their own businesses.

Private entity but a public space.

Nobody stopped these clowns from leasing it for their absolute garbage "music" festival, they chose not to.

A business decision they're entirely free to make. They could also have chosen a different location (which the festival did for years)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

In the original article it says he threatened someone else in the area.

He had an argument with another customer in the restaurant.

If this doesn't turn out to have something to do with the eventual victim, I'd be highly surprised.

[Ksyrup]

That was my first thought, just trying to make sense of it. He argues with a guy who is (or he believes is) connected to the girl, threatens the guy, then finds her car and shoots her. But I suppose there's the possibility it was entirely random.

[GrantDawg]

The guys mom worked for 20 years at the office my wife works at now.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A business decision they're entirely free to make.

I 100% agree. We have various laws that private entities can comply with or not. If a festival wanted to discriminate against people based on race; or not be ADA compliant; or not have enough bathrooms or whatever, then they can comply or not have their festival. This is just one of those laws.

The part that people need to understand is that when the GOP passes laws like Guns Everywhere, it has real consequences. They get away with stuff like this b/c a lot of people figure it does not affect them one way or the other. The business community needs to get people to understand that there really will be consequences of passing laws like this. Then people can make an informed decision about whether the people who passed those laws deserve to stay in power.

Maybe they will agree. Maybe they will disagree. But the real costs should be made clear to the voters.

[GrantDawg]

Four Louisville officers have been federally charged in the death of Breonna Taylor.

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[miked]

What do you know, turns out all these good apples met secretly after the fact to falsify documents and cover their tracks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I 100% agree. We have various laws that private entities can comply with or not. If a festival wanted to discriminate against people based on race; or not be ADA compliant; or not have enough bathrooms or whatever, then they can comply or not have their festival. This is just one of those laws.

The part that people need to understand is that when the GOP passes laws like Guns Everywhere, it has real consequences. They get away with stuff like this b/c a lot of people figure it does not affect them one way or the other. The business community needs to get people to understand that there really will be consequences of passing laws like this. Then people can make an informed decision about whether the people who passed those laws deserve to stay in power.

Maybe they will agree. Maybe they will disagree. But the real costs should be made clear to the voters.

The issue is more with insurance. After the Vegas shooting, it's impossible for the events to get insured if there are no metal detectors. And many artists require them after the Christina Grimmie murder.

People will argue the law, but it's just about money and risk. Violent country and hugely profitable business leads to some immense liability concerns.

[CrimsonFox]

I don't think this was a mistake. I think alex's lawyers really wanted him to go down