Werewolf XXXVII: Middle-Earth - GAME ENDS. Who Won? Check it out!

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well just to be fair.. if THomkal is on Saruman's team (like LSG says), and Mr.W is on Sauron's side.. Thomkal might have "believed" that Mr.W was good thus Swaggs's read would have been true still.

I was under the impression that both evil factions know who is evil and who isn't. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Thomkal,

Is there a reason you haven't scanned ntn either?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Sorry Alan,

But I had to know. You likely would do the same if wrongly accused. I think she's trying to protect ntndeacon, and is making all this up about Mr W to make my views look bad.

Actually if someone told me I was bad, and I wasn't bad I pretty much would already have the answer I was looking for. If you assumed she was trying to protect ntn why wouldn't you have scanned him instead?

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well just to be fair.. if THomkal is on Saruman's team (like LSG says), and Mr.W is on Sauron's side.. Thomkal might have "believed" that Mr.W was good thus Swaggs's read would have been true still.

Of course that entire scenerio still is all based on faith and no facts, so its a big giant pile of cards that we can have fall on our heads.

I'm just puzzled at the protection ntn has had this entire game.

Sorry that doesn't jibe Alan. If Thomkal is on Saruman's side and Mr. W was on Sauron's side as you suggest. He would have still seen light and darkness, so would have "believed " that Mr. Wed was bad not good.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

I was under the impression that both evil factions know who is evil and who isn't. Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think that is the case. I will re-read the rules but the assumption I have been working under here is that Saruman and Sauron's forces do not know who is on the other team. Just who is on their team.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

Sorry that doesn't jibe Alan. If Thomkal is on Saruman's side and Mr. W was on Sauron's side as you suggest. He would have still seen light and darkness, so would have "believed " that Mr. Wed was bad not good.

Unless he's not actually a seer at all, and just conjured a scan list at random...but maybe.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

Sorry that doesn't jibe Alan. If Thomkal is on Saruman's side and Mr. W was on Sauron's side as you suggest. He would have still seen light and darkness, so would have "believed " that Mr. Wed was bad not good.

Unless he was completely making up the whole able to see light and good thing.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

I was under the impression that both evil factions know who is evil and who isn't. Maybe I'm wrong.

I was under the impression that they knew of thier side only. which would be a reason to work with the good sides. If they don't want Anxiety to decide who wins control, or if they are trying to get a major victory. The only bad thing about that from our point of view, is that they are even better hidden since part of thier aim is to kill some of the other darkness faction.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Thomkal,

Is there a reason you haven't scanned ntn either?

Because at the time I thought there was better targets. Yeah I probably should have viewed him last night since he's been one of the focus of discussion. Should I survive the day and night, I will scan him.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Because at the time I thought there was better targets. Yeah I probably should have viewed him last night since he's been one of the focus of discussion. Should I survive the day and night, I will scan him.

I highly doubt that you have any worries about surviving the night.

[Thomkal]

I am NOT making things up. I really am a seer.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I am NOT making things up. I really am a seer.

What was your name again? and you say you tell people are good or bad by selling them vegetables right?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by from the rules

An uneasy alliance rests between Sauron and Saruman, but you know it is all fake.

This is why I'm under the impression they know each other. But I could be reading it incorrectly.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Alan T

What was your name again? and you say you tell people are good or bad by selling them vegetables right?

Antaria Lodestock, and yes the intuition I feel when talking to them from when I sell them vegetables and talk to them around town.

[Thomkal]

Why would the two dark sides know each other? They don't want the other side to win over them.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Sauron
Mr. Wed

Wrong on that one.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Yes, but they have to work together at first to remove the good players. Once they've removed enough villagers (i.e. now), they can start to turn on each other.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I think she's trying to protect ntndeacon, and is making all this up about Mr W to make my views look bad.

Although she didn't come right out and accuse me... maybe because she's hoping that she can push the vote my way without compromising her trust from the rest of the group?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Wrong on that one.

Mr.W can you give an explanation for why LSG would have had a problem scanning you last night?

[ntndeacon]

Possibly Jonathan. i had forgotten that part of the rules.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Who has LSG cleared at this point?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Yes, but they have to work together at first to remove the good players. Once they've removed enough villagers (i.e. now), they can start to turn on each other.

I just can't picture what end game would be like if they did know who each other were.

I also would have to have guessed someone on Saruman's side would have sold out someone on Sauron's team by now to gain trust and to even those odds a bit more.

Right now Saruman's team pretty much has a very long road to climb to try to win this game. Sauron has a huge edge on them.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Who has LSG cleared at this point?

That is alive? me and Izulde are the only ones.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Who has LSG cleared at this point?

So mr.W if you don't think people should vote you today, who do you think people should vote for instead?

Also why do you think that LSG was unable to scan you last night?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Antaria Lodestock, and yes the intuition I feel when talking to them from when I sell them vegetables and talk to them around town.

What if they don't like vegetables? For instance when I get Chicken and steak fajitas, I like the wrap with the chicken and steak in them and alot of cheese. I don't like the taste of onions and ususally don't put peppers on the wrap either.

Would a carnivore be completely able to block your scan?

[Thomkal]

I'm off for lunch, back in a bit.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Mr.W can you give an explanation for why LSG would have had a problem scanning you last night?

No. Assuming for the sake of discussion that it's not malfeasance on her part, nor interference on someone else's part, perhaps there's something about me that wasn't revealed to me. As I've said before, I know what side I'm on (light and townsfolk), I know my name (Astard Varn), my heritage (descended from the people of Lossoth in the far north), and aside from that, I was told that there was nothing else to my role.

I think it's better explained by another agent, either LSG herself or someone else acting to block her (possibly out of fear that she would hit an agent of Sauron last night).

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Alan T

What if they don't like vegetables? For instance when I get Chicken and steak fajitas, I like the wrap with the chicken and steak in them and alot of cheese. I don't like the taste of onions and ususally don't put peppers on the wrap either.

Would a carnivore be completely able to block your scan?

Well now I'm really hungry for lunch lol. If this is a serious question, I have no idea. I think the vegetable selling was just the vehicle Anxiety used to explain my role. And I dont like onions either.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Assuming our seers are playing straight with us, I believe we're down to three people who haven't aren't seers and haven't been cleared by seer statement or their own action: Tyrith, ntndeacon, and DaddyTorgo. LSG insists that Thomkal is on the side of Saruman; Thomkal insists that she is on the side of Sauron. If both are correct, then chances are pretty good that one of the other three that I identified is a villager.

I still like the odds, so I'm going to go with the one who's been drawing votes.

VOTE ntndeacon

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

No. Assuming for the sake of discussion that it's not malfeasance on her part, nor interference on someone else's part, perhaps there's something about me that wasn't revealed to me. As I've said before, I know what side I'm on (light and townsfolk), I know my name (Astard Varn), my heritage (descended from the people of Lossoth in the far north), and aside from that, I was told that there was nothing else to my role.

I think it's better explained by another agent, either LSG herself or someone else acting to block her (possibly out of fear that she would hit an agent of Sauron last night).

First, it was relatively clear that LSG was going to pick someone from her list of probable bad guys. With the reluctance of both seers to view me. I think it would have been possible to pick right here, if we have a blocker from seer sight.

I don't know how common it is to have someone who can hide someone from a seer though.

[ntndeacon]

I am going to go with the one that caused Gramm so much grief a couple of days ago. The story he pulled was a leading cause of Gramm's death. So I...
Vote Tyrith

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I also would have to have guessed someone on Saruman's side would have sold out someone on Sauron's team by now to gain trust and to even those odds a bit more.

Maybe. But how could they come out and name a Sauron agent without rousing our suspicion? They might have figured it would be easier to take them out through night actions (i.e. Sublime's foiled attack against LSG the other night).

[ntndeacon]

and with that iam off to lunch too

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

No. Assuming for the sake of discussion that it's not malfeasance on her part, nor interference on someone else's part, perhaps there's something about me that wasn't revealed to me. As I've said before, I know what side I'm on (light and townsfolk), I know my name (Astard Varn), my heritage (descended from the people of Lossoth in the far north), and aside from that, I was told that there was nothing else to my role.

I think it's better explained by another agent, either LSG herself or someone else acting to block her (possibly out of fear that she would hit an agent of Sauron last night).

Why would they have just now chosen to block a seer scan with both seers out for several days now... I would have assumed they would have blocked one earlier from now wouldn't they?

[Izulde]

ntn's time is here.

VOTE NTNDEACON

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Yes, but they have to work together at first to remove the good players.

If that's the case, then why is Alan still in the game?

[Alan T]

Ok.. trying to think this past just today...

we have up as options.. ntndeacon and Mr.Wednesday

So far everyone has stayed Faaaaaaar away from ntndeacon, no one has wanted to take a chance to vouch for him despite given repeated chances to find out more information. So far every bad guy who has been killed has not had any real presence in votes on ntn nor pushing for his vote. I think it is highly likely he is bad due to circumstantial evidence.

However ntn's death won't tell us anything about Mr.Wednesday. it won't tell us anything about DaddyTorgo. It won't tell us anything about Lonestargirl and it won't tell us anything about Thomkal. So its a dead end vote.


Mr.Wednesday on the other hand was scanned and believed to be good by Thomkal. Swaggs read Thomkal's statement and said that Thomkal did indeed believe Mr.W was good. Lonestargirl tried to scan Mr.W last night but was horrendously blocked from it.

This leads us to multiple possibilities.. If Thomkal is bad, he could likely still have thought Mr.W was good with him actually still being bad just on the other team. So Thomkal's being bad won't tell us anything about Mr.W. However if Thomkal is good, it means Mr.W also -has- to be good. Taking that on the inverse, if Mr.W ends up bad then Thomkal also has to be bad.

as for LSG's scan of him.. he says he didnt block it.. and I find it very hard to believe that the bad guys would just now on day 8 choose to block a seer scan for no good reason. I also find it hard to believe that a good guy would have some inherent seer blocking ability.

So if we lynch Mr.W and he ends up bad, we know pretty much for a fact Thomkal is lying. If we lynch Mr.W and he ends up good, it doesn't necessarily mean LSg is bad for sure, but it puts alot more credence behind what Thomkal has been saying and leaves alot of questions for what exactly happened to LSG last night.

Now for the tolkien part of this.. Mr. W is not lying about him being from Lossoth as far as I know.. the catch is here in Toronto without my books off the top of my head that, pretty much is a dead end role. Lossoth wasn't necessarily good or evil but instead were more neutral than anything that happened to help certain dunedan at times. Their lands however were conquered by the Witch-King of Angmar who also was the head nazgul.

We already know the game doesn't follow the books directly, so I can't tell for sure his being from Lossoth means he is good or bad.. however if some how he actually was the Witch-King or the head nazgul, it would definitly explain why LSG's scan was blocked last night.

I say for now, we don't even try to interpret the book piece of this, but instead I think today we learn the most about other people with a Mr.W lynch. It doesn't sound like killing him will lose us anything other than 1 good guy if we're wrong, but we gain alot of information from it.

Unvote ntndeacon
Vote Mr.Wednesday

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

If that's the case, then why is Alan still in the game?

LSG already has said I'm playing a bad game. So guess they aren't afraid of me

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

If that's the case, then why is Alan still in the game?

Remember, they tried to take him out a couple of nights ago.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Remember, they tried to take him out a couple of nights ago.

I am pretty sure that was BrianD who tried to take me out that night. Just like LSG's case it means we probably aren't on Saruman's side but doesn't necessarily clear us from Sauron's side.

I'm not too worried about that though for myself at this point. I'm pretty sure I'm good

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I wasn't saying you are evil, Alan. If it was Brian, why did he hit you over the head? From what I can tell, all Saruman attacks have been through magic, while Sauron's have been more violent. I think the attack on you was from the Sauron faction.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Alan T

we have up as options.. ntndeacon and Mr.Wednesday

This whole thing is based on what LSG said. What if she's lying? What if she really did scan Mr. Wednesday and he is good? Could she be trying to divert attention from ntn once again?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Alan T

It doesn't sound like killing him will lose us anything other than 1 good guy if we're wrong, but we gain alot of information from it.

No offense, but your vote seems like an unnecessary reach, especially with a much better target like ntn or Thomkal sitting there. At this point in the game, we can't afford to just toss good guys away to set up something else, as you suggested above. We just lost a Ranger, which counts as TWO villagers when determining the overwhelming of the town, so getting a guy in ntndeacon, who everyone (including supposedly you) considers a shoe-in as a baddie, should be our number 1 priority.

I know LSG cleared you, but the fact that you're a "known" good guy, an acknowledged good player, and are totally vocal, yet no attempt on your life has been made yet, just makes me really wierded-out. Now you're dropping the vote you've been so adamant about for days, in exchange for a very, very dubious gamble. Something just feels odd.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Remember, they tried to take him out a couple of nights ago.

D'oh!!

My bad. Disregard that point in my last post.

Sorry Alan.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

I wasn't saying you are evil, Alan. If it was Brian, why did he hit you over the head? From what I can tell, all Saruman attacks have been through magic, while Sauron's have been more violent. I think the attack on you was from the Sauron faction.

I was meaning that comment more for Schmidty's benefit than your's. Sorry for the lack of direction

I think there is some catch with Saruman's side.. I think Sauron's side has a night kill every night... Saruman's side perhaps has 1 night kill from each member maybe total the entire game? So perhaps 2 of Saruman's members had magic attacks and 1 had physical attack? THe night i was attacked, Tavin was killed by knife wounds which I think is the typical Sauron kill.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

No offense, but your vote seems like an unnecessary reach, especially with a much better target like ntn or Thomkal sitting there. At this point in the game, we can't afford to just toss good guys away to set up something else, as you suggested above. We just lost a Ranger, which counts as TWO villagers when determining the overwhelming of the town, so getting a guy in ntndeacon, who everyone (including supposedly you) considers a shoe-in as a baddie, should be our number 1 priority.

I know LSG cleared you, but the fact that you're a "known" good guy, an acknowledged good player, and are totally vocal, yet no attempt on your life has been made yet, just makes me really wierded-out. Now you're dropping the vote you've been so adamant about for days, in exchange for a very, very dubious gamble. Something just feels odd.

Well I seem pretty set in my ways at times.. and I still think ntn is likely bad.. however what does Ntn's death tell us other than whether my gut instinct is wrong or not? Not much.. whereas we have a different gut instinct with mr.w which actually will give us info on LSG and THomkal. If I had to guess, I think its more likely that ntn is bad than mr.w, but mr.w is on the short list of who is likely to be bad so I am ok with going with him today.

[Alan T]

This is the current vote count. I believe we need 5 votes for a lynching.

(3) Ntndeacon - Lonestargirl (2532), Mr.Wednesday (2579), Izulde (2585)
(1) Lonestargirl - Thomkal (2546)
(1) Tyrith - Ntndeacon (2581)
(1) Mr.Wednesday (2587)

One interesting thing is Mr.W threw a vote on ntn, however ntn completely ignored it and voted for someone completely different from the list of suspects. Does this seem odd to anyone else?

[Alan T]

Sorry numbers are wrong. 10 players left in the game not 9. So need 6 people for a lynch

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Unless he's not actually a seer at all, and just conjured a scan list at random...but maybe.

I think He ISNT a seer and he DID conjure that scan list at random... and I didnt scan ntn because Alant is so adamant he is bad, and I scanned alant and i trust what he says for the most part.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Alan T

THe night i was attacked, Tavin was killed by knife wounds which I think is the typical Sauron kill.

You're right. I forgot about DC killed stabbed to death that night. Well, throw out my theory on that one.

By the way, why do you think it was Brian that attacked you? It doesn't really matter, but did you pick up on something that I missed or was it something you learned through a PM?