The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Feel free to continue living in a world where only partisans care when a black man erroneously calls out a white cop as the bad guy. It fits you well.

No one gives a shit because it has no fucking effect on any normal, non-partisians life. Walk up and down the street and ask people what matters in their life. I guarantee you'll hear the well being of their family, their job, their financial status, and probably their health. You won't find a single person who will say "well, my biggest concern right now in life is what our President said about some random, tiny incident". No one in the real world who has real issues gives two flying shits about this.

Then again, this must be the first fucking time a black man has accused a white cop of racism. This is huge, when will we ever have a moment like this again?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'll be completely honest. I didn't even know who Michelle Malkin was until you mentioned her in your post. I'm at least aware of it now. Looks like a nut job just from reading the first page, but from the sounds of your sarcastic statement, it appears you agree so there's likely nothing further to discuss.

As for TOTUS, was there anyone who didn't know what that was that even remotely posts about politics? I'm not sure why using that commonly used abbreviation is suddenly a black mark.

You follow politics rather closely. You frequently post links to stories favoring Republicans and/or conservatives. Yet you have never heard of Michelle Malkin. A lady who runs one of the largest and most trafficked political sites in the country. Someone who has been on every major media network as a pundit and has filled in for the likes of Bill O'Reilly.

Have you heard of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

As for TOTUS, was there anyone who didn't know what that was that even remotely posts about politics?

Umm ... dude, I'm trying to help a little here but that one didn't make it any easier.

As I alluded to earlier, I had no idea what that was until I Googled it, had never heard it in my life.

edit to add: Lest I look a five-letter moron, technically, I knew what all of it likely meant except the leading "T".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No one gives a shit because it has no fucking effect on any normal, non-partisians life.

HUGE disagreement there.

It affects the life of every non-black American to have a guy that worries about color first and right/wrong sometime later (and I've giving him an extremely generous benefit of the doubt that I don't really believe he deserves there) sitting in a such a position of power.

Whether the people are smart enough to recognize it is an entirely different question.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As I alluded to earlier, I had no idea what that was until I Googled it, had never heard it in my life.

+1

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

HUGE disagreement there. I'd do that word in

It affects the life of every non-black American to have a guy that worries about color first and right/wrong sometime later (and I've giving him an extremely generous benefit of the doubt that I don't really believe he deserves there) sitting in a such a position of power.

Whether the people are smart enough to recognize it is an entirely different question.

I don't think he worried about color first. I think he took the side of his friend first (as many of us would do). It wasn't the right thing to do considering his position, but I don't think this had much to do with color (from his perspective).

But the question still remains, how will this impact your life (or anyone else's here) in any way?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You follow politics rather closely. You frequently post links to stories favoring Republicans and/or conservatives. Yet you have never heard of Michelle Malkin. A lady who runs one of the largest and most trafficked political sites in the country. Someone who has been on every major media network as a pundit and has filled in for the likes of Bill O'Reilly.

Have you heard of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh?

I rarely watch TV for politics outside of over lunch in the lunchroom and that's usually without sound, so I'm left to read the bottom of the screen. I never watch it at home. I only listen to local radio, so outside of the off day where I'm not working and happen to hear Rush, my radio is mostly local.

Huffington Post is often where I get quite a bit of my news from a national perspective along with Washinton and NY paper websites. I'm surprised that I didn't notice any Malkin related articles on there. I've searched on that site just now and there are quite a few references to her, nearly all negative.

Of course I know who Coulter is. Don't like her at all. I don't watch O'Reilly or any of the other afternoon/evening cable shows, so I would see her even if Malkin was even on there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But the question still remains, how will this impact your life (or anyone else's here) in any way?

Would you even ask me that if I were black & such an obvious racist was sitting in the Oval Office?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think he worried about color first.

Bullshit. You're more naive than I ever gave you credit. The color of the man's skin was solely his concern. If a black officer gets similar treatment in this instance, we wouldn't hear a peep from Obama.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But the question still remains, how will this impact your life (or anyone else's here) in any way?

The better question is how this DOESN'T impact the average person.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Would you even ask me that if I were black & such an obvious racist was sitting in the Oval Office?

I believe the man would be run out of office very quickly.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Bullshit. You're more naive than I ever gave you credit. The color of the man's skin was solely his concern. If a black officer gets similar treatment in this instance, we wouldn't hear a peep from Obama.

Yes, because Obama is a modern day Malcolm X.

The guy grew up with his white mother and white grandparents. He went to predominately white schools and was around white people. It's not like he's been some fervent civil rights activitist with an axe to grind with whitey.

He took his friends side of the story and called the officer's actions stupid. He didn't call it racist. You act like this was some black power move where afterwards he raised his fist in the air and had a Black Panther party in the oval office. The guy defended his friend without knowing the facts. Called the arrest stupid (which it was). He shouldn't have spoken out. But the whole "black uprising" boogeyman the right is trying to portray here is beyond retarded.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The better question is how this DOESN'T impact the average person.

Then tell me how it will impact your life.

[miked]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Would you even ask me that if I were black & such an obvious racist was sitting in the Oval Office?

No, but since you're white and live in Georgia, I guess it makes the difference between your family eating and not.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The better question is how this DOESN'T impact the average person.

I'll tell you how. Tomorrow morning I'll wake up, my Roth will still be down 35%, my mom will still be unemployed, we will likely be supporting my in-laws soon enough, and my gas will still cost $2.65. I fail to see how this incident and the president making a comment that will be forgotten in a few weeks affects any of this. Then again, I'm reasonably intelligent and don't cut and paste 6 times a day from my favorite conservative blog about shit that doesn't matter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

No, but since you're white and live in Georgia, I guess it makes the difference between your family eating and not.

It makes a difference between whether this is a country I continue to live in by choice versus circumstance. It makes a difference whether I believe there's any hope left for the nation or whether we've become so dumbed down over recent decades that there's any reason to believe we'll continue to exist as a notable power. Sadly, it makes me realize that there really are people who are either so naive, so incredibly stupid, or so desperate to remain locked in denial that they don't see the piece of shit sitting on the fencepost for what he is. Or that they've been brainwashed so successfully that their self-loathing is so endoctrinated that they figure it's okay, they deserve it.

Yeah, it makes a pretty significant difference in my life, including being a part of the equation I weigh every single day that determines whether I become just another statistic or if I decide to continue living. The margin is pretty fucking thing for a number of reasons but what having this waste of oxygen in the White House has narrowed the gap considerably.

edit to add: Not that this incident is some sort of blinding revelation, he is what I knew he is. The distress comes strictly from being slapped across the face with the reality that he could walk out to the podium and announce a plan to Kill Whitey and that not only would he get support, the move would be applauded by a goodly number of useful idiot whites. That's the additionally disturbing part for me, not that Obama is just a common racist.

[RainMaker]

So because the President said an arrest was stupid, the entire axis of our nation is about to become unhinged? If he has a grilled cheese for lunch tomorrow, does the Great Lakes region get sucked into a vortex?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So because the President said an arrest was stupid, the entire axis of our nation is about to become unhinged?

We reached that point a good bit back. This is just one of those annoying slaps in the face that serve as a reminder of that fact. That's the significance of it, not that it's anything that wasn't already known.

[miked]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It makes a difference between whether this is a country I continue to live in by choice versus circumstance. It makes a difference whether I believe there's any hope left for the nation or whether we've become so dumbed down over recent decades that there's any reason to believe we'll continue to exist as a notable power. Sadly, it makes me realize that there really are people who are either so naive, so incredibly stupid, or so desperate to remain locked in denial that they don't see the piece of shit sitting on the fencepost for what he is. Or that they've been brainwashed so successfully that their self-loathing is so endoctrinated that they figure it's okay, they deserve it.

Yeah, it makes a pretty significant difference in my life, including being a part of the equation I weigh every single day that determines whether I become just another statistic or if I decide to continue living. The margin is pretty fucking thing for a number of reasons but what having this waste of oxygen in the White House has narrowed the gap considerably.

edit to add: Not that this incident is some sort of blinding revelation, he is what I knew he is. The distress comes strictly from being slapped across the face with the reality that he could walk out to the podium and announce a plan to Kill Whitey and that not only would he get support, the move would be applauded by a goodly number of useful idiot whites. That's the additionally disturbing part for me, not that Obama is just a common racist.

Wow, glad you didn't feel anything about our nation being dumbed down when our president could not pronounce nuclear, or when Sonny Purdue cuts education funding in a state that ranks in the bottom 5 of the country. I guess the president calling a cop racist (I've lived in Mass and was friends with plenty of cops, he's mostly correct) when his friend was involved in a controversy turns the tides on whether or not this nation of dummies still deserves your glorious presence.

On a side note, you should be madder the Braves are still finding playing time for Casey Kotchman.

[larrymcg421]

I'm still missing the part where he called the cop racist? In his original comment, the only criticism was of arresting Gates for disorderly conduct. He didn't say it was racist, just that it was stupid. That's pretty much the same thing alot of us said.

[DaddyTorgo]

lol - the histrionics over this are totally out-of-whack.

as others have said, there are any number of things more important that should be getting more news time than this non-story.

let's not forget too that obama didn't offer up the comment on his own. he was questioned about it by a reporter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

Wow, glad you didn't feel anything about our nation being dumbed down when our president could not pronounce nuclear

I really don't think there's a Dem alive who ought to go down that road unless they want to disavow President Cuber, I mean Kennedy.

or when Sonny Purdue cuts education funding in a state that ranks in the bottom 5 of the country.

Yeah, we've gotten such a good ROI to date. I'd support eliminating it altogether frankly and starting over as the vast majority of the money is either mismanaged, misused, or simply flat out wasted.

I guess the president immediately siding with a raving lunatic behaving in a criminal manner over a law enforcement officer roundly respected by his peers based on nothing so much as the color of his skin

Fixed that naive bullshit you posted.

On a side note, you should be madder the Braves are still finding playing time for Casey Kotchman.

Tough to get mad when you realize he's the best regular 1B not named Texiera they've had in nearly a decade ... unless of course you prefer Adam LaRoche. Otherwise, since Gallaraga left after 2000 we've had such notables as Scott Thorman, Robert Fick, Wes Helms, and a sub-par year from Julio Franco.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That's pretty much the same thing alot of us said.

See loathing, self and/or naive.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by miked

I'll tell you how. Tomorrow morning I'll wake up, my Roth will still be down 35%, my mom will still be unemployed, we will likely be supporting my in-laws soon enough, and my gas will still cost $2.65. I fail to see how this incident and the president making a comment that will be forgotten in a few weeks affects any of this. Then again, I'm reasonably intelligent and don't cut and paste 6 times a day from my favorite conservative blog about shit that doesn't matter.

That's all true--but based on the large number of people who consistently vote against their economic interests (poor rural whites supporting the party of regressive taxation, upper-middle-class whites voting for the party of progressive taxation), I dare say that many (most?) people care as much (more?) about cultural (including racial) issues as about economic issues.

Sure, this incident could be Obama's Zoe Baird moment--a big deal at the time, and largely irrelevant to the rest of his presidency. But it could be Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment as well--the moment he put his foot in it so badly that he could never get it out again.

FWIW, I think that most of the disappointment stems not from the suspicion that Obama is a closet Black Panther, as from the sense that his remark was undisciplined and foolish. He's president of an entire country now, not a community organizer, and he needs to start thinking and acting like the president--not shooting from the hip, not getting backs up all across the country unnecessarily, and not squandering the power of the bully pulpit.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by King of New York

That's all true--but based on the large number of people who consistently vote against their economic interests (poor rural whites supporting the party of regressive taxation, upper-middle-class whites voting for the party of progressive taxation), I dare say that many (most?) people care as much (more?) about cultural (including racial) issues as about economic issues.
.

I will take you one step farther and say that you have a shitload of people who agree mostly with conservatives on issues like taxes and the colossal waste of taxpayer money on welfare type programs and who agree with liberals on gay rights, abortion, and other social issues. They get so caught up in choosing between Obama/McCain or Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore that they fail to recognize there is a party that actually supports more of their beliefs than either other major party.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Sure, this incident could be Obama's Zoe Baird moment--a big deal at the time, and largely irrelevant to the rest of his presidency. But it could be Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment as well--the moment he put his foot in it so badly that he could never get it out again.

I just think it's insane to compare the two incidents. The Mission Accomplished banner was over a war that will cost $3 trillion dollars, the lives of thousands of Americans and potentially millions of foreigners, as well as our standing in the world and overall safety. This is a dumb comment he made about a non-issue that has no bearing on anything in this world.

Obama's Mission Accomplished moment could be over the stimulus if the economy doesn't recover. It could be over his health care proposal if it goes through and ends up bad for the country. Issues that do effect our country and us individually to an extent. This was blown up because the cable news networks saw a slow 24 hour news cycle and some right-wing blogs saw an opportunity to stir up the racial and xenophobic boogeymen. It is a speck on the scale of issues like the wars, economy, and health care.

Originally Posted by King of New York

FWIW, I think that most of the disappointment stems not from the suspicion that Obama is a closet Black Panther, as from the sense that his remark was undisciplined and foolish. He's president of an entire country now, not a community organizer, and he needs to start thinking and acting like the president--not shooting from the hip, not getting backs up all across the country unnecessarily, and not squandering the power of the bully pulpit.

I can understand that and I agree that his comment wasn't smart. But the same people complaining about this are the same people who loved it when Bush "shot from the hip" after 9/11. I know hypocrisy is par for the course in partisian politics, but it does get a bit tiring from an outside observer.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

I will take you one step farther and say that you have a shitload of people who agree mostly with conservatives on issues like taxes and the colossal waste of taxpayer money on welfare type programs and who agree with liberals on gay rights, abortion, and other social issues. They get so caught up in choosing between Obama/McCain or Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore that they fail to recognize there is a party that actually supports more of their beliefs than either other major party.

I'm more or less in that boat. It's not that I vote against my own self interests, it's that I have to try and decide on the lesser of two evils every election.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tough to get mad when you realize he's the best regular 1B not named Texiera they've had in nearly a decade ... unless of course you prefer Adam LaRoche. Otherwise, since Gallaraga left after 2000 we've had such notables as Scott Thorman, Robert Fick, Wes Helms, and a sub-par year from Julio Franco.

In Julio's defense, he was like 53.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

In Julio's defense, he was like 53.

Maybe ... in 1975

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just think it's insane to compare the two incidents. The Mission Accomplished banner was over a war that will cost $3 trillion dollars, the lives of thousands of Americans and potentially millions of foreigners, as well as our standing in the world and overall safety. This is a dumb comment he made about a non-issue that has no bearing on anything in this world.

Obama's Mission Accomplished moment could be over the stimulus if the economy doesn't recover. It could be over his health care proposal if it goes through and ends up bad for the country. Issues that do effect our country and us individually to an extent. This was blown up because the cable news networks saw a slow 24 hour news cycle and some right-wing blogs saw an opportunity to stir up the racial and xenophobic boogeymen. It is a speck on the scale of issues like the wars, economy, and health care.

I see what you're saying, Rainmaker, and certainly the ramifications of Gatesgate will never be as massive as the ramifications of the Iraq War. What I meant by the comparison is that in each case, the President went way out on a limb and made himself vulnerable, and we all know what happened when that limb snapped beneath W.

I thought that Obama's comments today about the whole episode were spot on--he acknowledged that he had poured fuel on the fire by speaking as he did, and he is actively trying to reconcile himself with the officer in question. Unfortunately, those remarks did not contain any phrase as memorable as the one that caused the furor in the first place, but at least Obama is de-escalating, which is what the situation needed from the moment it first occurred.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by King of New York

I see what you're saying, Rainmaker, and certainly the ramifications of Gatesgate will never be as massive as the ramifications of the Iraq War. What I meant by the comparison is that in each case, the President went way out on a limb and made himself vulnerable, and we all know what happened when that limb snapped beneath W.

I thought that Obama's comments today about the whole episode were spot on--he acknowledged that he had poured fuel on the fire by speaking as he did, and he is actively trying to reconcile himself with the officer in question. Unfortunately, those remarks did not contain any phrase as memorable as the one that caused the furor in the first place, but at least Obama is de-escalating, which is what the situation needed from the moment it first occurred.

The Mission Accomplished sign was only a problem in retrospect and even then only a symptom of a larger problem. In 2003 the banner was widely praised in the media and it certainly wasn't a detriment in a very good for the GOP 2004 election cycle. It wasn't until 2005 when it was clear that the war wasn't being won and that there seemed no strategy to change our fortunes that Bush really started his nosedive. Later that summer came Katrina and he never again had decent approval ratings.

In short, the comparison to a widely praised event that only later seemed to sum up the futility of the Bush admin doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Then tell me how it will impact your life.

You obviously didn't watch some of the comments on the nightly national news programs. It has caused polarization. They went into LA and they interviewed a bunch of black people who all said that the cop was a racist and that Mr. Obama was spot-on in that assessment and didn't have to apologize for a thing.

They also interviewed several white people and they universally said that Mr. Obama was way out of bounds in his comments.

Now, you can say that those kinds of feelings may exist and that's fine. But we don't need our president being the one to make ignorant comments like he did in this situation. He STILL didn't apologize to the cop and he didn't do that because he knows he'd have several million black people calling him an 'Uncle Tom' if he did. He didn't call out the professor's instigating demeanor either for the same reason. It's easier for him to pretend it's all a big misunderstanding.

The ignorance of people like you as far as these kinds of events is amazing. You're more than welcome to pretend that these kinds of things aren't true if you want, but you're blissfully ignorant of things if that's the case.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by miked

Then again, I'm reasonably intelligent and don't cut and paste 6 times a day from my favorite conservative blog about shit that doesn't matter.

Which blog would that be? Care to show me the six times today that I did that? As most people who are paying attention would note, my personal linking preference is the Huffington Post. Last time I checked, that certainly wasn't a conservative blog, but don't let that stop you from making comments with no basis in fact.

[rowech]

Race will ALWAYS be an issue in this country. FOREVER. We are never going to get past it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Which blog would that be? Care to show me the six times today that I did that? As most people who are paying attention would note, my personal linking preference is the Huffington Post. Last time I checked, that certainly wasn't a conservative blog, but don't let that stop you from making comments with no basis in fact.

cough, WIZBANG, cough

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

cough, WIZBANG, cough

It's been quite awhile since I've posted from that blog, but once again, don't let that stop you from a claim based in the past. It's not relevant to today, but liberals stuck in the past seems to be hindering the party in recent days, including the leader.

[JPhillips]

Well you act like you're shocked that anyone could think you'd just post conservative blog links when you spent much of the campaign and aftermath doing just that. I'll admit you seem to have moved past that, but there's no need for the indignation when you have been known to do exactly what you were called out for doing.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Mission Accomplished sign was only a problem in retrospect and even then only a symptom of a larger problem. In 2003 the banner was widely praised in the media and it certainly wasn't a detriment in a very good for the GOP 2004 election cycle. It wasn't until 2005 when it was clear that the war wasn't being won and that there seemed no strategy to change our fortunes that Bush really started his nosedive. Later that summer came Katrina and he never again had decent approval ratings.

In short, the comparison to a widely praised event that only later seemed to sum up the futility of the Bush admin doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

I'm aware of those differences My point is: each presidency has its defining moments. Sometimes it is immediately apparent that a defining moment is at hand, sometimes it only becomes evident in hindsight. George H W Bush's "Read My Lips," Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, W and the "Mission Accomplished Banner"--those became the defining moments of their presidencies. If Obama does not tread carefully here, Gatesgate is going to be an equally defining moment, if only because he has handed his political opponents a giant, gift-wrapped club with which to beat him repeatedly.

And while Obama is now de-escalating, as he should be, it is true that he just cannot seem to bring himself to call out Henry Gates for his belligerent behavior during the whole episode. The best Obama can muster is that Gates "probably overreacted," as opposed to the police officer, whom Obama is sure acted stupidly. My politics and MBBF's are very different, but that point is a valid one.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Mission Accomplished sign was only a problem in retrospect and even then only a symptom of a larger problem. In 2003 the banner was widely praised in the media and it certainly wasn't a detriment in a very good for the GOP 2004 election cycle. It wasn't until 2005 when it was clear that the war wasn't being won and that there seemed no strategy to change our fortunes that Bush really started his nosedive. Later that summer came Katrina and he never again had decent approval ratings.

In short, the comparison to a widely praised event that only later seemed to sum up the futility of the Bush admin doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

In 2003, the US military had just accomplished it's mission of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. As easy as it looked on TV, it was no small task that required a lot of moving parts, expertise, and long hours on everybody's part (not to mention loss of life and the risk of loss of life).

Those troops deserved the president's appreciation once completing that mission.

Once the excitement of toppling the Saddam regime subsided, and the long war against terror-insurgency began, the far-left blogosphere mutilated the commander-in-chief's message in a successful broadcast that went on for years. Most everybody soon associated that banner not with the "praise for the military" that it truly meant in 2003 but with the purely liberal revision of "Bush thinks their is no more work to do in Iraq!"

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

[CamEdwards]

Clearly the most important issues facing this country are:

1) Healthcare reform

2) Foreign policy

3) The blog-reading of MBBF

5633) Race relations and the statements of the first bi-racial President.

[Glengoyne]

Pretty disappointed the president jumped into this. IMO Gates deserved to be arrested for his conduct. That's based on the pictures, and the accounts of the police. I buy those over Gate's own account.

I can't imagine the beer thing will work out suitably for the cop. He is 100% confident that he was in the right, and would do it again. Gates is the same. While a meeting can be civil, and may avail of a photo op with the two shaking hands...something the White house is hoping desperately for, it seems to make little sense for the Cop to entertain.

On the plus side he gets a visit to the WH...pretty cool, and hard to pass up. On the down side it seems to be an invite to the WH to have a beer and a shit sandwich with two guys who have thrown you under the bus. One who won't stop anytime soon, and the other who only regrets throwing you under bus because it cost him politically. Neither of whom are willing to admit that you did the right thing.

On totus. Who knew?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In 2003, the US military had just accomplished it's mission of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. As easy as it looked on TV, it was no small task that required a lot of moving parts, expertise, and long hours on everybody's part (not to mention loss of life and the risk of loss of life).

Those troops deserved the president's appreciation once completing that mission.

Once the excitement of toppling the Saddam regime subsided, and the long war against terror-insurgency began, the far-left blogosphere mutilated the commander-in-chief's message in a successful broadcast that went on for years. Most everybody soon associated that banner not with the "praise for the military" that it truly meant in 2003 but with the purely liberal revision of "Bush thinks their is no more work to do in Iraq!"

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

Dutch. What the hell are you thinking? You can't possibly expect anyone to believe that the President's speech beneath the now infamous banner should play any part in defining the context of the event.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

You obviously didn't watch some of the comments on the nightly national news programs. It has caused polarization. They went into LA and they interviewed a bunch of black people who all said that the cop was a racist and that Mr. Obama was spot-on in that assessment and didn't have to apologize for a thing.

They also interviewed several white people and they universally said that Mr. Obama was way out of bounds in his comments.

Now, you can say that those kinds of feelings may exist and that's fine. But we don't need our president being the one to make ignorant comments like he did in this situation. He STILL didn't apologize to the cop and he didn't do that because he knows he'd have several million black people calling him an 'Uncle Tom' if he did. He didn't call out the professor's instigating demeanor either for the same reason. It's easier for him to pretend it's all a big misunderstanding.

The ignorance of people like you as far as these kinds of events is amazing. You're more than welcome to pretend that these kinds of things aren't true if you want, but you're blissfully ignorant of things if that's the case.

It has caused polarization? Are you telling me that urban blacks had high opinions on white cops up till Obama made that comment? That races didn't differ on social issues?

But again, my question for you is how does this impact yours or anyone else's life? It's just faux-rage on the right. No wonder they've been getting demolished in elections.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In 2003, the US military had just accomplished it's mission of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. As easy as it looked on TV, it was no small task that required a lot of moving parts, expertise, and long hours on everybody's part (not to mention loss of life and the risk of loss of life).

Those troops deserved the president's appreciation once completing that mission.

Once the excitement of toppling the Saddam regime subsided, and the long war against terror-insurgency began, the far-left blogosphere mutilated the commander-in-chief's message in a successful broadcast that went on for years. Most everybody soon associated that banner not with the "praise for the military" that it truly meant in 2003 but with the purely liberal revision of "Bush thinks their is no more work to do in Iraq!"

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

It's not often that you hear this kind of sanity on that "mission accomplished" nonsense.

I guess it was a political mistake in the sense that they should have known that people would misrepresent the presented sentiment for political points. But the real story there, the real dick move to me has always been ya, critizing the president's praise of the military because the NEXT mission didn't meet their personal expectations. I think maybe I have a different perspective then most (I thought Iraq would be longer, and more bloody than it actually turned out), so I can see that a little better. But then on the other hand, at the time we had Dan Rather DESPERATE to make a story that even the initial overthrow of the government was going badly (this about 12 hours in, and all that was happening was tanks moving towards Bagdhad)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's just faux-rage on the right.

Sure you don't mean "misplaced" instead of "faux"? I don't even agree that it's misplaced frankly but the change would seem more likely to fit what you actually mean based on our previous conversations.

But if you think the anger (over a variety of things, this is just symptomatic) isn't real I can assure that you're badly misreading it.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

Importantly, though, "major combat operations" were over, right?

Seriously, though, one of the benefits of time passing is that we can look past the speech to the preparations made and analysis done by Bush Administration officials and conclude quite readily that the situation that followed the invasion took them completely by surprise. And this despite members of the military and diplomatic corps who counseled them otherwise.

The same hubris that made Rumsfeld, Cheney, et. al., disagree with and publicly humiliate people like General Shinseki for being "off message" is what got Bush up on that aircraft carrier to make that speech. So while Bush supporters might still try to defend the speech, and the image, through semantics, you really can't (and shouldn't) deny the message it gave to the country and the world about Iraq.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Importantly, though, "major combat operations" were over, right?

Did you expect us to be out of Iraq a few weeks after that?

I just assumed they were talking about the regime change part. I really didn't think they were talking about the war on terror part.

What should of happened? Is it just the banner that offended you so much? What the hell difference does it make to anything? Should we not praise the military until every terrorist is dead?

It just isn't anything more than partisian point-gathering. It's just so bizzare when you step back and look at it. There was a "mission accomplished" banner after a particular military success. And that was horrible because there was more conflict there in the years to come. It just doesn't make any sense.

It always seems so weird to me that with an administration that did so much that one can criticize, people seem to get most passionate about the trivial. People get more fired up about that banner than the actual running of the war.

[flere-imsaho]

The banner and the speech and the theatricality of it all, especially in context of a) what happened next and b) what we now know about their decision-making apparatus, simply underscores how ill-prepared, poorly-judged and arrogantly-influenced the decisions of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, et. al. were.

Can people honestly look back at the shit Rumsfeld & Cheney spewed ("six days, six weeks, I can't imagine six months" "last throes of the insurgency, if you will", etc, etc, etc) and tell me they all weren't thinking that Bush's little jaunt to the George Washington wasn't the end of major U.S. loss of life and investment in Iraq?

They were not just wrong, they were catastrophically wrong and like it or not, the Mission Accomplished event is the perfect image for the whole boondoggle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Can people honestly ... tell me they all weren't thinking that Bush's little jaunt to the George Washington wasn't the end of major U.S. loss of life and investment in Iraq?

{raises hand}

Yes I believe I could. Anybody who thought those folks were going to be able to govern themselves effectively and in a manner that assured they were no longer a concern to our national interest without someone looking closely over their shoulder had to be in denial or an complete fool.

Now whether or not there were elements in the administration that were kidding themselves or were simply that downright foolish, well that's probably a different question, one that really touches on one of my biggest gripes about the actual running of the war. At some point, I'm afraid key people may have started to believe their own p.r. campaign about "promoting freedom and democracy" and actually began to think that was the point.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yes I believe I could. Anybody who thought those folks were going to be able to govern themselves effectively and in a manner that assured they were no longer a concern to our national interest without someone looking closely over their shoulder had to be in denial or an complete fool.

I agree 100% and so I agree that Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest of the chickenhawks in the administration were/are fools. Dangerous, incompetent fools.

Now whether or not there were elements in the administration that were kidding themselves or were simply that downright foolish, well that's probably a different question, one that really touches on one of my biggest gripes about the actual running of the war. At some point, I'm afraid key people may have started to believe their own p.r. campaign about "promoting freedom and democracy" and actually began to think that was the point.

That too. If I had to guess, I'd say Bush, Wolfowitz, Feith and their hanger-on neocons thought the latter while for Cheney & Rumsfeld it was more about retribution, KBR contracts, oil contracts for friends, and looking like badasses.

[Dutch]

Too many liberal buzzwords in one post, Flere.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Too many liberal buzzwords in one post, Flere.

If Mizzou B-ball fan made a post like that everyone would be complaining about him getting that stuff from blogs.