FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'll just assume it is. Hands up, don't shoot.

Huh. Well I guess you don't believe everything the cops tell you after all.

[Dutch]

I believe everything you say though.

[RainMaker]

Video shows moments before North Miami Police shot unarmed man – WSVN 7News | Miami News, Weather, Sports | Fort Lauderdale

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Video shows moments before North Miami Police shot unarmed man – WSVN 7News | Miami News, Weather, Sports | Fort Lauderdale

I'm going to hazard a guess that this isn't going to help calm things down...

[Dutch]

Not at all. I'm guessing at least 2 or 3 random cops will be executed for this. Plus a lone wolf or two killed after the fact.

I would like to hold the officer that shot him accountable, but I've been wrong before on how this works right now.

[bhlloy]

That's a bad one. I don't see how the officer can possibly justify that.

[Chief Rum]

I won't judge until I hear the side of the officer who shot, but I am really struggling to come up with an acceptable reason for why that should happen, unless there is info we have not been provided about the scene and victim.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Video shows moments before North Miami Police shot unarmed man – WSVN 7News | Miami News, Weather, Sports | Fort Lauderdale

Sounds like a million dollar lawsuit that will be paid once again by the taxpayers.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

That's a bad one. I don't see how the officer can possibly justify that.

The officers justification was he thought the therapist was in danger so he shot at the autistic man but missed and hit the therapist.

At least the cop was able to follow standard procedure to help someone who you believe is in danger by handcuffing them and not treating their gunshot wound afterwards.

[miked]

I guess that toy truck was menacing.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

That's a bad one. I don't see how the officer can possibly justify that.

Apparently they said they thought the black guys life was in danger and meant to shoot the autistic guy sitting down with a toy truck in his hand instead. I'm not kidding.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by miked

I guess that toy truck was menacing.

Well you know, if the truck in France killed 84, and the toy is 1:64 scale, by my math...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by mckerney

The officers justification was he thought the therapist was in danger so he shot at the autistic man but missed and hit the therapist.

At least the cop was able to follow standard procedure to help someone who you believe is in danger by handcuffing them and not treating their gunshot wound afterwards.

This is so stupid, I actually feel like the cop who shot must just be an actually terrible performing cop. I mean, even a racist cop would know he couldn't get away with this one. This guy appears to be a regular dumbass, if this is true.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Or a really lousy shot?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or a really lousy shot?

I would go with the Stormtrooper Cop theory here, too, except for the second great point mckerney made: they left the guy they "weren't aiming at" handcuffed and bleeding on the street.

[EagleFan]

That cop needs another line of work.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or a really lousy shot?

That seems to be the narrative...which is almost worse. We pay those guys to drill for hundreds of hours a year with firearms. The original story reported that three shots were fired.

That means that two missed, and the third hit the guy he was trying to protect.

And we're not even talking just a beat cop. The officer in question appears to be SWAT (from one of the other stories I read).

So, his best case scenario is that he's incompetent both with a firearm and in his ability to assess tense situations...as a member of SWAT.

At the very least, he should probably go slap his career counselor, because I suspect he's not well suited to his profession.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Drake

That seems to be the narrative

I saw that referenced here initially, but hadn't actually seen the source for it until a little while ago. That's coming from the union rep apparently, so seems to be enough of an "official source" to qualify as being a real thing.

From the one photo I've seen, I can kinda see how that's plausible based on the positions of the two civilians. Not sure I know where the cop was but if he was ... at 2 o'clock to them (in relation to the angle of the photo) then shots at the guy sitting up that went wide but low would maybe have hit the guy on the ground (who I gather is the one who was shot).

Still seems like one helluva lousy shot.

[Groundhog]

...but the whole handcuffing part of it? Funny way to act if you accidentally shot someone, no?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

(My daughter has a friend with a 16yo brother who has a fairly severe case of autism. They under no circumstances want to be in a situation where police would come in contact with him.)

I'm sure situations like these only reinforce that feeling. He plays with spatulas (the kind with the rubber end for scraping things off bowls). Drums with them, which I guess helps calm him. Has them on him just about all the time. If a toy truck can be mistaken for a weapon...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'm sure situations like these only reinforce that feeling. He plays with spatulas (the kind with the rubber end for scraping things off bowls). Drums with them, which I guess helps calm him. Has them on him just about all the time. If a toy truck can be mistaken for a weapon...

I don't know a ton about autism, but my nephew has a case that I would consider "severe." He's 15. He barely talks. He rarely/never makes eye contact. He screams at the top of his lungs for longs periods of time with his face inches from face when you do something he doesn't like. He *sometimes* does what my brother and sister-in-law tell him to do immediately, but usually it takes 2 or 3 times even for them, and he ignores pretty much everyone else as if he didn't hear you. There's basically zero chance that he'd comply with an officer's orders. My brother and sister-in-law try their best not to let him out of their sight, but now that he's older, he has gotten out of the house and started walking down the street a few times. And my brother and sister-in-law live in a mostly-white higher-end neighborhood. They are quite worried for him after hearing about this story.

[panerd]

I saw on the news the officer was a "white Hispanic". What determines the order of your ethnicity? Whether you are the cop or the victim?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I don't know a ton about autism, but my nephew has a case that I would consider "severe." He's 15. He barely talks. He rarely/never makes eye contact. He screams at the top of his lungs for longs periods of time with his face inches from face when you do something he doesn't like. He *sometimes* does what my brother and sister-in-law tell him to do immediately, but usually it takes 2 or 3 times even for them, and he ignores pretty much everyone else as if he didn't hear you. There's basically zero chance that he'd comply with an officer's orders. My brother and sister-in-law try their best not to let him out of their sight, but now that he's older, he has gotten out of the house and started walking down the street a few times. And my brother and sister-in-law live in a mostly-white higher-end neighborhood. They are quite worried for him after hearing about this story.

And they should be. My oldest is high functioning to the point that he has his first job and a drivers license at the age of 21. He was involved in a single car accident and the officer who showed up to question him became very hostile and aggressive toward him when he was slow to answer questions and couldn't give a factual recounting of what had happened. He started yelling at him, accused him of being on drugs, of driving distracted, and totally scared the crap out of him. This was his first dealing with the police, all on his own and is really shook him up.

When I got there I explained to the officer that he was high functioning autistic and the officer said he didn't know what that was. That blew me away.

We've looked into getting a card made up that he can pass to the officer to explain himself better before things escalate like that. Keep in mind, the escalation was 100% initiated by the officer.

The Mrs and I were discussing this very event yesterday it disturbed us greatly. There are countless stories of special needs adults, trying to be independent, who end up out of their element, who end up in tazed, cuffed and in jail. At least they weren't shot first.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by panerd

I saw on the news the officer was a "white Hispanic". What determines the order of your ethnicity? Whether you are the cop or the victim?

Actually there's a government standard for this that I recall reading after the George Zimmerman stuff. IIRC, in this case it means that race="Caucasian", ethnicity="Hispanic." Short version is that it's the difference between Zimmerman or that dude from Hamilton vs., say, Pedro Martinez.

EDIT: Yeah, this.

Race and ethnicity in the United States Census - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Race and ethnicity are considered separate and distinct identities, with Hispanic or Latino origin asked as a separate question. Thus, in addition to their race or races, all respondents are categorized by membership in one of two ethnic categories, which are "Hispanic or Latino" and "Not Hispanic or Latino". However, the practice of separating "race" and "ethnicity" as different categories has been criticized both by the American Anthropological Association and members of U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.[6][7]

[Dutch]

So your and my ethnicity is Non-Hispanic? That's weird.

[cuervo72]

Violent arrest of teacher caught on video; officers face... | www.mystatesman.com

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

He started yelling at him, accused him of being on drugs, of driving distracted, and totally scared the crap out of him.

When I got there I explained to the officer that he was high functioning autistic and the officer said he didn't know what that was.

Keep in mind, the escalation was 100% initiated by the officer.

The thing that really strikes me about all these incidents (and others) is how quickly the police involved completely and utterly lose their shit. I mean yes, I know the job can be dangerous and stressful. But, you know, the job can be dangerous and stressful. If you don't have the skills to handle that, you shouldn't be in the job. Do we hire pilots and air traffic controllers who completely lose their shit when things go wrong?

It reminds me how lucky I am. Fact is, as an over-40, white, middle-class male, I'm a member of probably the only group (well, plus rich whites) who can get into an argument with a police officer and have a chance of walking away without getting tazed, shot or arrested.

[Ben E Lou]

I hate to paint with a broad brush, but do y'all *know* any street-beat cops personally, specifically their backgrounds???

I appreciate their service. They do a dangerous job that I wouldn't want to do. That said, to be a street cop requires a high school diploma and either the courage to face fears or the arrogance to be unfazed by the danger. I know several guys from my years of hanging around high schools who ended up becoming cops. Every single one of them fits the following profile:

1. Highest education = high school
2. Grades = Took no advanced classes, GPA between 2.0 and 2.5 (i.e. "just enough to stay eligible for football")
3. College attended = 1 year or less
4. General understanding of autism vs. Down Syndrome vs. Other Mental Illness= "Those kids who were in special ed."
5. Personality = Nice guy, but general demeanor = "big dumb jock"

I have every reason to believe that all but one of them are good cops. (The one that I suspect might not be may well have some PTSD issues from Afghanistan. ) However, unless specifically trained to look for signs of an issue such as autism or if they happen to have someone in their family/friends circle who cares for an autistic person, I have absolutely NO reason to believe that any of them would have the first clue about autism and I would fully expect all of them to truthfully respond that they have no idea what high-functioning autism is.

[PilotMan]

Literally every other professional group has to go through ongoing, continuing education in their professions. There's no excuse for not working to have a better understanding of the greater world they live in.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Literally every other professional group has to go through ongoing, continuing education in their professions. There's no excuse for not working to have a better understanding of the greater world they live in.

I am sorry but do you have any idea the incredible variety of the human race and how many different ways different subsets of people would require different sorts of responses from cops? If you think in any way that any government arm is going to undertake to train police officers to deal with every possible situation, you're out of your mind.

[PilotMan]

"training police officers to deal with every possible situation," is a far reach from understanding special needs populations, learning about barriers to doing your job, and how to best serve your community.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I am sorry but do you have any idea the incredible variety of the human race and how many different ways different subsets of people would require different sorts of responses from cops? If you think in any way that any government arm is going to undertake to train police officers to deal with every possible situation, you're out of your mind.

...and yet we expect our elementary school teachers to do it, while also herding a classroom with 30 six year olds through the set curriculum every day, while continuing to take classes in their academic discipline or in teaching theory (in Indiana. at least -- of course, in Indiana, we also expect the teachers to get their ongoing education on their own dime, just to keep their licenses.)

Maybe the solution isn't "every officer" and something more like community policing specialists or advisors who can organize things like workshops or brown bag lunches, and also keep their finger on the pulse of the community so they know things like where the group homes are and what sorts things officers in their vicinity might encounter.

(I live in a small town, so I imagine this might be more complicated in more urban settings.)

[molson]

There would be advantages to a smaller, better trained, better educated, more worldly, police force, but that would cost a lot more money. And poorer and rural parts of the U.S. are already stretched so thin when it comes to public services.

I've always thought it might be interesting to have a hybrid system in cites where it makes sense - a very small, elite group of well-trained officers, and then a larger, cheaper, less-trained group of unarmed, but still deputized, community "problem solvers" that can handle the vast majority of police calls. But that probably wouldn't last past the first time an unarmed officer is killed.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I am sorry but do you have any idea the incredible variety of the human race and how many different ways different subsets of people would require different sorts of responses from cops? If you think in any way that any government arm is going to undertake to train police officers to deal with every possible situation, you're out of your mind.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

"training police officers to deal with every possible situation," is a far reach from understanding special needs populations, learning about barriers to doing your job, and how to best serve your community.

Found some more info on this. In Georgia, the Police Academy is 408 hours, and 4 hours are spent on "Mental Health, Mental Redardation and Substance Abuse."

(Yes, that is a direct copy/paste from the state public safety web site: 403 Forbidden )

So out of the 408 hours, 4 are spent in the very broad area, including substance. So, what, maybe 30 minutes at most on identifying signs of autism?

Continuing education exists, though I couldn't find any indication that it is required. On the contrary, the couple of articles that I did find made it at least *seem* like it's optional, and none of the classes that I ran across had anything to do with disorders / mental health.

[cuervo72]

Which is concerning given that people call 911 when people (including family) are experiencing psychotic breaks or are threatening suicide.

[molson]

Here's how positive change actually works. Someone involved in an autism education group creates a program to train officers to better respond to hostile situations where autism may be a factor. They propose it to local governments. Local governments are open-minded enough to fund it.

I know there was a lady around here who was very passionate about reducing the amount of bad officer-dog interactions. Instead of engaging in broad hate rhetoric, she put together a program and has gotten a lot of well-received facetime with a bunch of agencies and officers. Then there was an officer who brilliantly handled a dangerous dog-at-large call (got the dogs contained, no shots fired), and the video went viral and that lady got more attention, and hopefully, that will spur access to even more agencies.

[Drake]

As a foster parent, even I'm required to take 15 hours of continuing education classes every year aimed at helping me better understand troubled kids, mental illness, and the latest techniques for parenting traumatized kids.

[cuervo72]

Heh, dog encounters. A state rep who went to my HS introduced a bill concerning police dogs who are injured in the line of duty. At the same time he denounces how Obama has handled BLM and police deaths, and I've seen no mention of family pets shot by police. And, this was trending today:

Police kill family dog at child's birthday party

#AllDogLivesMatter

Good on that lady though.

[stevew]

My boss has a younger autistic son, and I can only imagine how shit like this frightens him.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Heh, dog encounters. A state rep who went to my HS introduced a bill concerning police dogs who are injured in the line of duty. At the same time he denounces how Obama has handled BLM and police deaths, and I've seen no mention of family pets shot by police. And, this was trending today:

Police kill family dog at child's birthday party

#AllDogLivesMatter

Good on that lady though.

So...serving a warrant on an address that's ten years old, the first logical move is to shoot the dog that might be a potential threat before even checking to see if the guy you're looking for even lives there.

Because it's easier to shoot the dog than knock on a neighbor's door or check if there's mail in the mailbox.

[flere-imsaho]

Reminds me of this thread: SWAT raid on Missouri family - Front Office Football Central

[cuervo72]

"police shoots dog video"

About 3,010,000 results (0.47 seconds)

[Ben E Lou]

Back to North Miami...

"Emile Hollant, a second officer, has also been placed on administrative leave without pay after giving conflicting statements to investigators, Spring said"

[Ben E Lou]

More: North Miami police commander suspended | Local News - Home

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Back to North Miami...

"Emile Hollant, a second officer, has also been placed on administrative leave without pay after giving conflicting statements to investigators, Spring said"

Nothing about this situation makes sense. The first report I read said the guy yelled at the cop "why did you shoot me?" after he got shot and the cop responded with "I don't know". Then he was supposedly trying to shoot the Austic guy with a toy truck.

I seems like they're trying to cover up gross incompetence.

[JPhillips]

The officer is damn lucky he's a poor shot. This would be much worse if he had killed an autistic man with a toy.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The thing that really strikes me about all these incidents (and others) is how quickly the police involved completely and utterly lose their shit. I mean yes, I know the job can be dangerous and stressful. But, you know, the job can be dangerous and stressful. If you don't have the skills to handle that, you shouldn't be in the job. Do we hire pilots and air traffic controllers who completely lose their shit when things go wrong?

It reminds me how lucky I am. Fact is, as an over-40, white, middle-class male, I'm a member of probably the only group (well, plus rich whites) who can get into an argument with a police officer and have a chance of walking away without getting tazed, shot or arrested.

Shurg. There are bad cops everywhere, and more importantly cops going out on the street where they think everyone is the enemy. This was the norm when large groups of officers would come in to break up parties at UMass, and they were the ones repeatedly escalating situations out of control. That kid was standing on his own property across the street from the party that allegedly needed to be stopped, but when you send police out in stormtrooper gear you can't be surprised when they think they need to use force.

Though at least now they finally charged the staties who started throwing haymakers at a guy after he gave up and was being handcuffed, so maybe BLM etc has created enough attention that the bad cops start getting punished. (Although I think it's really just the increased video.) Combine that with an increased emphasis/training on de-escalation, stop over-militarizing everyone except SWAT teams, and you'd solve most of the problems.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

"training police officers to deal with every possible situation," is a far reach from understanding special needs populations, learning about barriers to doing your job, and how to best serve your community.

No, it's not. Special needs populations aren't the only subsets out there. Like I said, the human race is a rather diverse group in general. Why should police focus on special needs over other areas? Or vice versa? If they concentrate on special needs, maybe they spend less time dealing with situations where drunk women claim that they assaulted them. Or less time in understanding how to take down someone armed with a knife? Or less time figuring out how to deal with a situation in which all involved don't speak English?

A police officer has to know a LOT, and even then, he/she will be thrown into situations that are entirely uncovered in any of their training.

You have much higher expectations for what they should be capable of doing than I do. I note there are only 24 hours in the day.

[flere-imsaho]

I wouldn't suggest the police need extensive training on how to deal with each and every group that might give them a problem. I would suggest that they adopt an approach to unusual situations that is something other than aggressive escalation.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I wouldn't suggest the police need extensive training on how to deal with each and every group that might give them a problem. I would suggest that they adopt an approach to unusual situations that is something other than aggressive escalation.

Such as?