Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

it's a shame too...Rock would be great as a guest host...he was ALWAYS amazing on the stick. People's Champ/Corporate Champ/Nation/Insulting Rock, there was never a persona he brought out that didn't just...work. Shit, I'll go so far as to say that aside from some of the classic-Flair stuff I have on VHS from the 80's that Rock was the best I've ever seen on the stick.

It was great to watch him during his speech for Flair's retirement.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Matthean

It was great to watch him during his speech for Flair's retirement.

missed that

*runs to check youtube*

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by brassmonkey32

So on the ending of TNA, is Hogan a heel?

Nope, don't think so. He seemed to be playing pissed about it & I expect he'll have a stern lecture for those involved next week ... and the week after that ... and the week after that ... and so on until he's revealed as a full blown heel.

[dubb93]

Is it just me or did Hall, Nash, and Waltman all look and sound drunk. I noticed it during Nash's awful promo first.

My girlfriend was like, is he on drugs? I said I doubt it, but I do think he is drunk. Then later with Waltman and Hall both of those two looked smashed as well. I bet the damn ring smelled like a bar with all three of those guys in it.

Also I really tried to watch Impact tonight, but it was just awful tonight compared to RAW IMHO. And this is coming from someone who hasn't watched in a long time. I watched Impact up until the end of the Hogan promo and switched to RAW and was pissed to see Bret and Shawn in the ring and realized I missed most of it.

The rest of the night I flipped back and forth but the only thing on Impact that kept my attention all night was Angle-Styles going head to head with the Orton match.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Is it just me or did Hall, Nash, and Waltman all look and sound drunk. I noticed it during Nash's awful promo first.

I thought Nash was just out of practice cutting live promos, and probably got less of a script than usual to work with. The other two though, well hell, when was the last time either of them worked in the US not chemically altered?

At least now with Hardy on board maybe they can get hooked up easier.

[rjolley]

Having never seen AJ Styles before, I must say he had some impressive spots last night.

TNA definitely had a mid 90's WCW/WWF feel to it. Whenever I flipped to it, I constantly said, "I didn't know he was in TNA." Very nostalgic moments. Don't know if they'll compete against WWE, but it was more like an show done the old way.

To those who are disappointed in the products of both organizations, what are you looking for? Kinda curious as to why you're so unhappy with it.

And John, I had the same thoughts as your son. I figured Hart would no show WWE and appear on TNA or something like that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rjolley

To those who are disappointed in the products of both organizations, what are you looking for? Kinda curious as to why you're so unhappy with it.

Can't speak for everyone but I can say that I stopped watching when the in-ring product became (IMO) marginalized at the hands of the promos and the convoluted, sensationalistic storylines. What's worse is that there's no...evolution either. There's sensationalism for sensationalism's sake, but otherwise there's no new, original ideas. Just feel like I've seen everything from a storyline perspective that they have to offer, and since by-and-large the in-ring product (at least as shown on TV) isn't of a high-enough quality to keep me around, what is there to watch for?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rjolley

To those who are disappointed in the products of both organizations, what are you looking for? Kinda curious as to why you're so unhappy with it.

I think I've kind of given up on being "disappointed" by the WWE product, it is what it is and I'd say it's actually better now than it was in some years past.
As for TNA, lemme see I saw more of Hogan's cronies last night than I saw of Daniels & Joe, they turned the X-Division into a gigantic clusterfuck, and Bubba the Fucking Love Sponge is now a backstage interviewer.

Out of the 56 "TNA Superstars" listed on the official webpage right now:
-- 14 are Knockouts, leaving 42 men
-- 6 are non-wrestlers (West, Hector, Borash, Tenay, Taz, Urbina), leaving 36 active wrestlers listed

And of those ...
-- 4 are "special cases" - Hogan, Sting, Foley, and Jarrett. There's name value there, enough to probably overcome the age restrictions on their work rate
-- 11 are much more closely associated with the WWF/WCW regardless of their age (Lashley, Dinero, Richards, Nash, Angle, Morgan, Raven, Rhino, Steiner, Devon & Ray)
-- 8 are indy stars they've acquired (Shelly & Sabin, Daniels, Wolfe(Nigel), Joe, Homicide, Lethal, and Suicide (Kaz)
-- 4 are international acquisition of wildly varying caliber (Magnus, Williams, Kiyoshi, and Terry)
-- 9 are essentially TNA talent; i.e. they're names are more associated with TNA than any other promotion & with the exception of Styles they weren't necessarily major indy stars prior to joining TNA (Abyss, AJ, Red, Creed, Eric, Hernandez, Storm & Roode, and the regrettable Jesse Neal)
--------------
Of the 4, I can justify the existence of all but Hogan in some fashion. The cancer on the business he represents cannot be excused.

Of the 11, Angle can still go, Morgan still has potential, the jury is out on Dinero I suppose, and the Dudleys serve a purpose. Heck, if his head is on straight I think Nash can be an asset instead of a liability, more off-screen than on. But Steiner is a fuck-up, Rhino's value has been killed by bad booking, Lashley's heart ain't in it, Richards serves no purpose & Raven doesn't seem to have any direction to speak of other than filler so why use 45 year old filler?

Of the 8, these should be the core of the company's focus. Joe, Daniels, Nigel, Shelly & Sabin, and Homicide are among the best in the world at what they do. Lethal may or may not overcome the stupid angle they stuck him in forever, and I don't know what to make of Kaz.

Of the 4 internationals, what a mixed bag mostly reaching the same end. Williams is a hell of a veteran to have around but has no real name value in the US & even less charisma. Terry & Magnus are just outright awful, Kiyoshi is a generic Japanese talent.

Of the 9, you've got world class talent in Styles. Abyss, Hernandez, Storm & Roode, a rejuvenated Amazing Red all bring something to the table you can work with. They've gotten significantly more mileage out of Eric Young than anyone could have ever dreamed. Creed really deserves an incomplete at this point, he's awfully green for this level & while I'm thrilled for him that he got a shot (he's a kid out of my most local indy) I don't know if he's really ready for this size stage.
-----------

Now look at what's either shown up already or are strongly rumored to be added in the weeks to come
-- Flair is a legend obviously but do we really want to see him jobbing to most of the roster?
-- Hall & Waltman, 'nuff said
-- RVD is an arrest warrant waiting to be served
-- Hardy is an arrest warrant that's already been served
-- Dreamer is a hell of a veteran influence to have but has limited functionality on-screen at this stage of his career
-- The Nasty Boys? Please (although as a one-off last night they did fine)
-- Orlando f'n Jordan? Umm ... why?
-- Val Venis? Amusing as long as it was a one-off thing.

But let's cut to the heart of the problem that leaves any veteran observer with no sense of hope whatsoever: Russo has/had the book, Hogan & Bischoff (and tagalong Jason Hervey) will have all/some portion of the book.
What possible reason is there for any hope at all?

There's young talent that's as good as any in the world today in Joe & AJ. There's name talent that can still go, like Angle (to my admitted surprise). There's quite a few role players who could be used in entertaining fashion.
And there's nobody running the show with the slightest fucking clue how to entertain me except once in a while by accident.

Let those who can wrestle do so.
Let those who can only talk support that work.
Let the devil take the rest.
It ain't that complicated.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Wait, TNA in theory will have 58 active wrestlers on the roster? With only one two hour show.

Actually it's probably worse than that since I omitted Sid, Shannon Moore, Ken Kennedy, and possibly Heidenreich.

And now it's obvious why a number of the younger (non WWF/WCW castoff) wrestlers are nervous about their jobs.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Can't speak for everyone but I can say that I stopped watching when the in-ring product became (IMO) marginalized at the hands of the promos and the convoluted, sensationalistic storylines. What's worse is that there's no...evolution either. There's sensationalism for sensationalism's sake, but otherwise there's no new, original ideas. Just feel like I've seen everything from a storyline perspective that they have to offer, and since by-and-large the in-ring product (at least as shown on TV) isn't of a high-enough quality to keep me around, what is there to watch for?

+1

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually it's probably worse than that since I omitted Sid, Shannon Moore, Ken Kennedy, and possibly Heidenreich.

And now it's obvious why a number of the younger (non WWF/WCW castoff) wrestlers are nervous about their jobs.

I agree that they need to pare down that bloated roster. Also, with some of the in ring talent they have I was very disappointed that 2 of the first 3 matches were knockouts....Sorry, one would have been fine, but use the other slot to highlight some of the other talented guys, maybe a Red vs Daniels match or something, instead of wasting the X division talent in that ridiculous asylum match.

As much as I hate to admit it, I did like some of the nostalgia of the NWO guys and am fine with limited doses of them, but if they become the focus of the promotion TNA is on trouble.

Finally the Styles / Angle match was a solid old school NWA/ECW type match where they let guys showcase their abilities for more than 5 minutes. Angle can still go at his age and Styles is a great worker when he is not trying to be a spot Monkey.

PS. I know Hardy brings baggage, but if he is on top of his game I would love to see him matched with Styles.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I agree that they need to pare down that bloated roster. Also, with some of the in ring talent they have I was very disappointed that 2 of the first 3 matches were knockouts....

Eh, hard for me to knock 'em for that since the women are consistently the highest rated segments week after week.

instead of wasting the X division talent in that ridiculous asylum match.

There's really not anybody left who knows how to book the X division unfortunately.

I know Hardy brings baggage, but if he is on top of his game I would love to see him matched with Styles.

May take a while, since (for the moment at least) both are faces and Hardy is reportedly slated to feud w/ Homicide initially. I can definitely see them trying to turn AJ heel again if the rumored face/heel alignments are accurate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Incidentally, Jeff Hardy was indicted today by a NC grand jury. A date for superior court will be set soon. At the time of his arrest (and I've seen nothing that mentioned any of the charges being removed) he was charged with Felony possession of cocaine, Felony drug trafficking of opium, Felony possession with intent to redistribute a Schedule III drug (two counts), Maintaining a dwelling for drug use and/or distribution, and Possession of drug paraphernalia. (misdemeanor).

Also, in addition to the anticipated debut of The Young Bucks (who haven't impressed me one iota but others are much kinder in their assessment) some reports indicate that the six-sided ring will be destroyed tonight in some sort of angle & that TNA will switch to the traditional four-sided ring going forward.

[Toddzilla]

Don't forget Ken Kennedy is on his way into TNA as well

[CU Tiger]

Tonight?

I was actually intrigued a bit last night.
Enough to give TNA a little bit of an interest at leeast for a few watches.

[molson]

wwe.com has some video from post-RAW, with some of the RAW talent joining Hart in the ring:

WWE: Mediaplayer > Raw: Sheamus vs. John Cena - WWE Championship Match

Ooops - wrong video - it keeps popping up as Cena/Sheamus. It's there if you go to that link and then click on the "TV Show" Tab, then it's the top video on the right.

[BigDPW]

I for one thought that while still rough around the edges the TNA effort came off pretty good last night.

Despite all the smarks hankerings about Hogan turning TNA into a rerun of WCW and destoying the company I thought they laid the foundation last night to do the exact opposite.

The Hall/Waltman angles seemed to hint that the band was back together and then it was made clear that Hogan wanted no part in repeating history. I thought that was a nice swerve of sorts. As long as they continue to play Hogan in that light and he has learned from the WCW failures then I think that it could shape up pretty well. He has indicated such in some interviews. Before last night I was mainly intrigued to see if he really has learned from that stuff. The angles last night hinted that he had but still leave me wanting to watch more which is about all TNA could ask for. Certainly they weren't going to light the world on fire and leapfrog WWE in one night.

The surprise appearanced for the most part I thought were great and while I hope certain people were only around for a short pop and exit (Val Venis, Nasty Boys, Hall) it had a bit of the WCW surpise aspects that always kept me watching that during the Monday Night Wars.

The bits I saw of WWE Raw seemed flat to me last night and most of what I saw was the Bret stuff. The in ring product in WWE has completely lost me now and the storylines are nearly as bad. TNA seemed to break from the mold a bit.

I saw a lot of old bischoff stuff in the production last night. If they properly use the young guys and build their mic skills, entertainment skill, while producing and writing shows much like WCW did at the same time have some of the older guys put young talent over this could be a win for them.

I didn't see much that turned me off last night in TNA except the botching of the XDivision stuff. If they use the new energy and build the young talent right and focus on letting guys who can perform do so in the ring then I remain hopeful.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Early overnight ratings had a 3.37 for Raw, a 1.5 for Impact.

[DaddyTorgo]

how does that compare to the "usual" ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

how does that compare to the "usual" ?

Impact had been stuck in the 1.1 to 1.3 range,

Here's an article that mentions that it was an all-time high for Impact, 2.2 million versus 1.9 million set in April '08. Raw had 5.5 million average last night, almost identical to their average last week.

Basically Bret didn't add any viewers but I didn't think he would, his job IMO was mostly to prevent erosion & it would seem that mission was accomplished.

[DaddyTorgo]

not bad....not bad

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just read the tapings, let the burial of most of the talent begin.

edit to add: Let me correct that, let the burial of talent begin, it'll take a few weeks for them to reach "most".

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by molson

wwe.com has some video from post-RAW, with some of the RAW talent joining Hart in the ring:

Hey look, it's Chris Jericho and a dozen guys I've never heard of.

Classic passive aggressive Vince move. Send out the B-squad. Guess the A-listers only have to go out when it's time for HHH's annual birthday party.

[Neon_Chaos]

After reading the tapings for Smackdown, it seems like they're building a Straight Edge stable for CM Punk to lead.

[RainMaker]

I DVR'd Raw to see Hart's return. Thought it was pretty melodramatic. The opening with Michaels was intense and I thought well done. But the rest of the show seemed crap. They didn't use him much at all except for the weekly "Chris Jericho sucks up and gets shot down by the guest host" bit and an extremely predictable finish with Vince. I did think Bret looked pretty good for a guy his age and was strong on the mic from the start. Just sad they didn't use him more on the show since I'm sure a lot of people like me only tuned in for him.

I don't watch enough to comment, but it seems like Smackdown is pretty good and Raw is a pile of horseshit now?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Hey look, it's Chris Jericho and a dozen guys I've never heard of.

Classic passive aggressive Vince move. Send out the B-squad. Guess the A-listers only have to go out when it's time for HHH's annual birthday party.

Actually, it looked to me like virtually every member of the Raw roster except for DX, Hornswoggle, and Orton were out there, including the heels like Swagger & Miz and the recent push guys like Kofi & MVP.

Cena was in Miami for the Orange Bowl so he wasn't in the building, and obviously they have to keep Hart & HBK separated for story purposes & I would assume that is extended to DX (even if it's personal, there's actually good kayfabe for it). Orton offered to take him out earlier in the show so he kind of had to be left out too. About the only worker who was in the building that I definitely didn't see out there who didn't have a solid storyline reason to avoid it would have been Big Show.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually, it looked to me like virtually every member of the Raw roster except for DX, Hornswoggle, and Orton were out there, including the heels like Swagger & Miz and the recent push guys like Kofi & MVP.

Cena was in Miami for the Orange Bowl so he wasn't in the building, and obviously they have to keep Hart & HBK separated for story purposes & I would assume that is extended to DX (even if it's personal, there's actually good kayfabe for it). Orton offered to take him out earlier in the show so he kind of had to be left out too. About the only worker who was in the building that I definitely didn't see out there who didn't have a solid storyline reason to avoid it would have been Big Show.

you mean Glendale and the Fiesta Bowl, but we get your point.
I agree with you on the rest of it though.

[CU Tiger]

WHAT?
After one week where is TNA?


They kinda suckeed me in last week and *poof* they are gone

[Terps]

Yup... Last Monday was just a one time thing.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

WHAT?
After one week where is TNA?


They kinda suckeed me in last week and *poof* they are gone

I was disappointed too. I would watch wrestling on Mondays if there was two shows to flip between, however with TNA on Thursday and WWE nearly every other day of the week I won't be tuning in to any of it.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I was disappointed too. I would watch wrestling on Mondays if there was two shows to flip between, however with TNA on Thursday and WWE nearly every other day of the week I won't be tuning in to any of it.

exactly...I can dedicate 2 hours a week to catch 2 promotion...but Im not givin 2 hours to 1 consistently and dern sure not 2 days a week.

[DeToxRox]

Mike Johnson is reporting the six sided ring is gone and a traditional 4 sided ring is set up at the Genesis PPV tonight.

[SirFozzie]

They are negotiating with Spike now to get a regular live monday slot.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Mike Johnson is reporting the six sided ring is gone and a traditional 4 sided ring is set up at the Genesis PPV tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

+1

[DeToxRox]

Also, it is being reported Ken Kennedy is going to be replacing Lashley tonight vs Abyss, and Brian Kendrick is backstage, possibly debuting vs Amazing Red.

Another less reputed site has a story that Hall is uncomfortable with his look and is trying to get out of the tag match tonight, and Waltman doesn't want to wrestle either, which would leave Eric Young as Nash's partner.

This is becoming a joke fast if that is true. I do believe the Kennedy/Kendrick stuff tho as it is is from Alvarez/Johnson.

[Flasch186]

Hall uncomfortable with his look? What does that mean?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Hall uncomfortable with his look? What does that mean?

The story goes he just recently put on his trunks and realized how terrible he looks and now doesn't want to work.

Take it FWIW.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Also, it is being reported Ken Kennedy is going to be replacing Lashley tonight vs Abyss, and Brian Kendrick is backstage, possibly debuting vs Amazing Red.

Another less reputed site has a story that Hall is uncomfortable with his look and is trying to get out of the tag match tonight, and Waltman doesn't want to wrestle either, which would leave Eric Young as Nash's partner.

This is becoming a joke fast if that is true. I do believe the Kennedy/Kendrick stuff tho as it is is from Alvarez/Johnson.

Uncomfortable with his look as in, what, I don't want to look like a near 50 year-old drunk?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

The story goes he just recently put on his trunks and realized how terrible he looks and now doesn't want to work.

Take it FWIW.

why doesn't he just wrestle in his street clothes then?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

why doesn't he just wrestle in his street clothes then?

Well I would assume based on A. how fat he is, and B. how drunk he has seemed to be, that he has no ability to even have a bad match, let alone a mediocre one.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Well I would assume based on A. how fat he is, and B. how drunk he has seemed to be, that he has no ability to even have a bad match, let alone a mediocre one.

hehehe

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

why doesn't he just wrestle in his street clothes then?

IIRC there was a quote somewhere along the way since the arrival of Hogan & Co. that they wanted all workers in relatively traditional wrestling attire.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Well I would assume based on A. how fat he is, and B. how drunk he has seemed to be, that he has no ability to even have a bad match, let alone a mediocre one.

Or once he put his trunks on, can't seem to find his street clothes?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

IIRC there was a quote somewhere along the way since the arrival of Hogan & Co. that they wanted all workers in relatively traditional wrestling attire.

aah

[DeToxRox]

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Well I would assume based on A. how fat he is, and B. how drunk he has seemed to be, that he has no ability to even have a bad match, let alone a mediocre one.

On the more recent side of things I saw a match with Sid vs. Hall and it was pretty much Sid utterly and completely dominating until Hall kicked in to get a token win and even Sid helped with the finisher. I still can't imagine anybody looks at Hall and thinks he deserves a wrestling contract from a company that would show him on TV.

Found the video. It's from August '09.

Part I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zreplO2RvY

Part II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0O3S...eature=related

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Matthean

On the more recent side of things I saw a match with Sid vs. Hall and it was pretty much Sid utterly and completely dominating until Hall kicked in to get a token win and even Sid helped with the finisher. I still can't imagine anybody looks at Hall and thinks he deserves a wrestling contract from a company that would show him on TV.

Found the video. It's from August '09.

Part I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zreplO2RvY

Part II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0O3S...eature=related

Holy shit, that was pathetic, the finish was atrocious. I think I am uncomfortable with his look too.

[Mota]

It was horrible. I checked youtube to see if I was playing the match in slow motion or something, it was that slow. Both of those guys are terrible sellers and their offense isn't exactly legit looking anymore, even the audience in that gym couldn't even sit down and watch the match, judging from their reactions it looked to be bathroom break time.

[DeToxRox]

If you get a chance to read TNA spoilers, I suggest not doing it. You may vomit.