The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

If Mizzou B-ball fan made a post like that everyone would be complaining about getting that stuff from blogs.

Good to see that no matter where the topic wanders, all roads lead back to MBBF.

You're in good company, flere.

[CamEdwards]

Hey, why complain about the current president when we're not through complaining about the last one!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Did you expect us to be out of Iraq a few weeks after that?

I just assumed they were talking about the regime change part. I really didn't think they were talking about the war on terror part.

What should of happened? Is it just the banner that offended you so much? What the hell difference does it make to anything? Should we not praise the military until every terrorist is dead?

It just isn't anything more than partisian point-gathering. It's just so bizzare when you step back and look at it. There was a "mission accomplished" banner after a particular military success. And that was horrible because there was more conflict there in the years to come. It just doesn't make any sense.

It always seems so weird to me that with an administration that did so much that one can criticize, people seem to get most passionate about the trivial. People get more fired up about that banner than the actual running of the war.

I think the banner was the symbolization of the war though. It was a sign of incompetence and people who had no idea what was going on. Celebrating a mission as accomplished when the hardest and most deadliest part of the war had yet to begin.

People turned on the news and saw young men and women dying every day. They heard no news of the WMDs that made us go into this war. Then they thought back to the banner and it angered them. Would be no different than President Obama coming out and saying mission accomplished on the economy while we still have some pain left to go.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sure you don't mean "misplaced" instead of "faux"? I don't even agree that it's misplaced frankly but the change would seem more likely to fit what you actually mean based on our previous conversations.

But if you think the anger (over a variety of things, this is just symptomatic) isn't real I can assure that you're badly misreading it.

It isn't real for this issue. I have no doubt there are people angry with him over spending and other issues. I just think this was used as a reason to pick a fight and stir up some racism.

It's how paritisan politics works though. Although people on the Left were mad at Bush for things like the war, they turned every single thing he did into a "major outrage".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It isn't real for this issue. I have no doubt there are people angry with him over spending and other issues. I just think this was used as a reason to pick a fight and stir up some racism.

Actually, we're mad about his blatant racism too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually, we're mad about his blatant racism too.

I still don't see anything in his statements that mentioned race. He said the arrest was stupid, which I and the DA agree with.

Did I miss him raising his fist in the air and yelling "BLACK POWER"?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Did I miss him raising his fist in the air and yelling "BLACK POWER"?

He might as well have.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still don't see anything in his statements that mentioned race. "

Edit: I'm not even responding to the right thing, too many martinis I think

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Too many liberal buzzwords in one post, Flere.

Originally Posted by molson

If Mizzou B-ball fan made a post like that everyone would be complaining about him getting that stuff from blogs.

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Hey, why complain about the current president when we're not through complaining about the last one!

Good to know the echo chamber is still working just fine. Let me know when you guys have an original thought.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Let me know when you guys have an original thought.

After the steaming pile of cut & paste you posted earlier, that probably ain't the best road for you to go down. Kind of has that whole pot/kettle vibe.

[JPhillips]

Imagine if this many Dems wouldn't answer a question about 9/11 truthers.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

After the steaming pile of cut & paste you posted earlier, that probably ain't the best road for you to go down. Kind of has that whole pot/kettle vibe.

Sad to see you lose that "independent thinker" vibe, Jon.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Hey, why complain about the current president when we're not through complaining about the last one!

But... but... but... CLINTON!!!

[RainMaker]

The lady who called the police and was listed in the report denies that she said anything about "black" men and also claims to never have spoken to Sgt. Crowley at the scene. Seems someone embelished the police report.

911 caller in Gates arrest never referred to 'black suspects' - CNN.com

[flere-imsaho]

So let me get this straight, after all this time are there still people here who thought that Cheney, Rumsfeld and et. al. of the neocons really knew what they were doing so well in Iraq and the 5-year counter-insurgency effort we've gone through was just what, bad luck?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

So let me get this straight, after all this time are there still people here who thought that Cheney, Rumsfeld and et. al. of the neocons really knew what they were doing so well in Iraq and the 5-year counter-insurgency effort we've gone through was just what, bad luck?

No, it's largely attributable to worrying too much about politics, political correctness & making nice with the enemy instead of focusing on effective means to accomplish particular tasks.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

He might as well have.

Watch out Jon. I hear he's got a plan to fuck all the white womens.

[RainMaker]

Never heard of this site, but the picture is awesome.

Taki’s Magazine, edited by Taki Theodoracopulos

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Watch out Jon. I hear he's got a plan to fuck all the white womens.

quoted for classiness.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Watch out Jon. I hear he's got a plan to fuck all the white womens.

He cetainly seemed to be enjoying that Italian woman's a$$!

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

quoted for classiness.

Well I'm just on edge ever since I got the fundraising call from the NRA. I had no idea all the things "they" are going to do. And don't even get me started on the plans the U.N. has!

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Well I'm just on edge ever since I got the fundraising call from the NRA. I had no idea all the things "they" are going to do. And don't even get me started on the plans the U.N. has!

Wow, he does snarky comments based on the unique personality/character traits of the poster! I tell ya, it's the little touches like this that make a message board great and keep me coming back to FOFC.

Seriously though, I'd say you actually seem snarkier now than you did this time last year, which strikes me as odd. You do realize your side won the last election, right?

[JPhillips]

I'm not at all joking about the NRA call. The guy was nice, but when he wouldn't let me politely decline it just got crazier and crazier. At the U.N. part I started laughing. I'm sure it's been tested as effective, but it certainly didn't get me thinking of my gun safety class I took as a Boy Scout.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No, it's largely attributable to worrying too much about politics, political correctness & making nice with the enemy instead of focusing on effective means to accomplish particular tasks.

I'm on record (in other threads) as being for a) more men, b) more force, c) broader rules of engagement, d) more operational freedom given to the military commanders (as opposed to the desk jockeys sitting in the White House & Pentagon) and e) clearer objectives in Iraq, assuming we were going to be there anyway.

Speaking to your point, I'd argue that the root cause of the failures in the areas I list above are due to the incompetence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., not necessarily domestic political pressures. And to support this argument I'll note that once Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., started to lose their influence in the Administration in general, and the Iraq War in specific, and you saw the military itself (and especially the more innovative commanders in the military) regain control of the way the war was waged, there was more success on the ground. Success that certainly was helped by some other internal factors (Sunnis turning against Al-Qaeda, Al-Sadr's cease fire), but success nonetheless.

Which is why I'm confused as to why people continue to ridicule the notion that key people in the Bush Administration were unprepared (due to hubris, arrogance, incompetence, etc...) for the situation on the ground after the invasion of Iraq. Maybe someone can explain that to me.

[flere-imsaho]

Speaking of the NRA, Cam, I don't know if he was a member or not, but should we expect to see some sort of condemnation of Hal Turner by the NRA for his recent threats against Judges Easterbrook & Posner?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Speaking to your point, I'd argue that the root cause of the failures in the areas I list above are due to the incompetence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., not necessarily domestic political pressures.

And my argument is that responding to those pressures is the display of incompetence. In other words, I don't believe they didn't know any better (which would have been incompetence via ignorance) but rather they lacked the will to overcome those pressures & bowed to them instead.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And my argument is that responding to those pressures is the display of incompetence. In other words, I don't believe they didn't know any better (which would have been incompetence via ignorance) but rather they lacked the will to overcome those pressures & bowed to them instead.

Well, I'd argue they had both failings. You look back on the public statements and now-available private writings of these guys from 2002/2003 and it's pretty clear they thought the military question would be done by early 2004 and they'd have moved on to conducting deals for oil and reconstruction with an amenable Iraqi government.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And my argument is that responding to those pressures is the display of incompetence. In other words, I don't believe they didn't know any better (which would have been incompetence via ignorance) but rather they lacked the will to overcome those pressures & bowed to them instead.

+1 to this...I'd also add that the public outrage over the continuing deaths and general mayhem over there made it "easier" (in the Bush Admin's eyes) to justify adding troop levels, IMHO.

So, to put it differently...the Bush admin's failure (IMO) was a misjudging of US public will vs. the public outrage that would follow their inappropriate execution of post-war Iraq.

[judicial clerk]

The cop is still a fucking bafoon. Bust into anyone's house and accuse them of breaking in and you'll find a lot of pissed off people. I don't know if it was racist at all, but definitely unnecessary. Cop should have apologized, put his tail between his legs and drove off.

Dude, your hate for the cops is strong! Now, I know you will probably deny this with all the righteous indignation you can muster, but if you are honest you will admit that it gives you a warm fuzzy to read about cops getting hurt or killed. I am attaching a stoy that should put some spring in your step. It is about a couple more " fucking bafoons" who "busted in" to somebody's house but would have been smart to "apologize, put their tail between their legs, and drive off." These guys definately got that ego check you write about. Read this story then go find a mirror and give yourself a high-five!

SEMINOLE, Oklahoma -- Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty against an Oklahoma man charged with first degree murder for the shooting deaths of two Seminole County deputies.


Ezekiel Holbert, 26, was charged Monday for the shooting deaths of deputies Robbie Chase Whitebird and Marvin Williams.


Seminole Shoot-Out
The deputies were trying to arrest Holbert for failing to make a court appearance after Holbert was released on bond in a domestic violence case in February. Holbert was wanted for allegedly trying to strangle his mother.

When the deputies went to the door to serve the warrant, Holbert opened fire, said Jessica Brown, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation spokeswoman.

Deputy Robbie Chase Whitebird, 23, was shot inside the home. Deputy Marvin Williams, 43, was shot in the back as he was leaving the house.

Deputy Whitebird died at the scene. He had worked for the sheriff's office since April of 2008.

The Seminole County Sheriff's Office honors fallen members of the department.

Deputy Williams was flown to OU Medical in Oklahoma City but died in transport. He had worked for the department since 2002.

Jennifer Bowen, 22, who was walking outside near the home, was also hit by gunfire in the arm. She was transported to OU Medical Center in Oklahoma City, where she remains. A fund for Bowen's medical expenses has been set up at the First United Bank of Seminole.

Police were able to use a tactical team robot to enter the home, using a PA system to announce their presence and asked Holbert to surrender. A few minutes later, Holbert surrendered to authorities without incident.

Several agencies including local police officers, Oklahoma Highway Patrol and the Seminole County Sheriff's Office investigated the scene. Officers evacuated the area and asked local businesses to shut down while they were searching for Holbert before his arrest.

In the domestic abuse case, Holbert's mother told police he tried to strangle her after he was inhaling paint thinner, court records show. According to an affidavit, "Ms. Holbert and her kids are in fear of Ezekiel's explosive behavior."

Holbert was found at his mother's house, and she was the one who called police because he was not welcome there. Holbert's mother told authorities that she and her other children were afraid of him, court records show.


Two years ago, his sister said in a filing for a protective order that she feared he would kill somebody.

Holbert is being held in the Pottawatomie County Jail. Seminole County District Attorney Chris Ross said they chose not to place Holbert in the Seminole County jail because they were worried about other inmates and law enforcement being tempted to do something to Holbert.

No attorney appeared with Holbert and District Attorney Chris Ross said he had not yet requested a court-appointed lawyer. When Holbert appeared in court Monday, his behavior was very erratic, including grinning, making strange noises and laughing out loud when he heard he was facing the death penalty.

[larrymcg421]

These cop threads just get worse and worse.

Now we've got people arguing that if you dislike the actions of certain cops that you must want to see cops get killed.

That's some really fucked up logic.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

These cop threads just get worse and worse.

Now we've got people arguing that if you dislike the actions of certain cops that you must want to see cops get killed.

That's some really fucked up logic.

Well Rainmaker's accused me of supporting battery on women in a cop thread, so that definitely goes both ways.

[Flasch186]

And all Ezekials are not bad, take Ezekial Brewman for example.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

Dude, your hate for the cops is strong! Now, I know you will probably deny this with all the righteous indignation you can muster, but if you are honest you will admit that it gives you a warm fuzzy to read about cops getting hurt or killed. I am attaching a stoy that should put some spring in your step. It is about a couple more " fucking bafoons" who "busted in" to somebody's house but would have been smart to "apologize, put their tail between their legs, and drive off." These guys definately got that ego check you write about. Read this story then go find a mirror and give yourself a high-five!

It's a horrible story and sad anytime something like this happens. I don't have a problem with cops as a whole. I know that the overwhelming majority of them are good, honest people. My issue is with the few bad seeds in the ranks and the way they are protected by other officers and the community.

I just see no reason for this guy to be arrested. Sure he was angry and yelling. But I guarantee you that a lot of people would be if they had a cop come in their house and demand identification. The cop should have verified his identity, apologized for the mix-up, and driven away. The blowhard could stand on his porch and yell into the empty air before tiring himself out.

[RainMaker]

Full email sent by Justin Barrett

[DaddyTorgo]

In the Gates case the cop didn't "bust into HIS house." The cop "pursued a suspect into a residence."

Cop didn't know it was Gates' house until his ID was verified. What was he supposed to take the word of someone who he was pursuing as a suspect?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

My issue is with the few bad seeds in the ranks and the way they are protected by other officers and the community.

Really interesting and telling that after this, you post that cop email without the context of what happened to that officer. (Which doesn't fit your vision that bad officers are "protected by other officers and the community") I'm 100% sure that if the reaction involved any wavering, any difference really, you would have been all over it. Since it didn't fit your bias, you ignore it.

Officer suspended for Gates slur in e-mail - Local News Updates - The Boston Globe

"Menino, speaking to the Globe before an evening event in the South End, said he hadn't seen the e-mail Menino said while the officer is not officially terminated, he might as well be "He's gone, g-o-n-e. I don't care, it's like cancer, you don't keep those cancers around."

Unless this officer had used racial slurs on his application to become a police officer, than I'm not sure what more you want.

[RainMaker]

It says on the link I posted that he was suspended. I didn't add any commentary to it so I'm not sure how I'm passing any vision across.

You're the one pretending we live in a fairy tale world where all cops are angels and everyone they arrest is evil. I'm just saying there is a big grey area in between.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It says on the link I posted that he was suspended. I didn't add any commentary to it so I'm not sure how I'm passing any vision across.

You're the one pretending we live in a fairy tale world where all cops are angels and everyone they arrest is evil. I'm just saying there is a big grey area in between.

Everyone knows exactly what you were implying by posting that link. No need to play stupid.

Your link proved that there are other people in the world that can be just as big of a jackass as Gates was in his situation and little else. Had Gates and this other guy you cited both shut their mouths, neither would be in this situation. The lack of respect coming from Gates and this e-mailer is appaling.

There's no gray area. As Colin Powell correctly stated, you show respect to a police officer. If I would have acted like Gates, I would have expected to get my ass thrown in the slammer and my wife likely would have told me she wasn't bailing me out for acting like a dumbass.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Everyone knows exactly what you were implying by posting that link. No need to play stupid.

Your link proved that there are other people in the world that can be just as big of a jackass as Gates was in his situation and little else. Had Gates and this other guy you cited both shut their mouths, neither would be in this situation. The lack of respect coming from Gates and this e-mailer is appaling.

Lack of respect is not against the law.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lack of respect is not against the law.

But completely asshattery like Gates displayed can be.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

In the Gates case the cop didn't "bust into HIS house." The cop "pursued a suspect into a residence."

Cop didn't know it was Gates' house until his ID was verified. What was he supposed to take the word of someone who he was pursuing as a suspect?

You're comfortable with the police being able to enter your home based solely on an anonymous 911 call that was summarized by a dispatcher?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You're comfortable with the police being able to enter your home based solely on an anonymous 911 call that was summarized by a dispatcher?

You'd prefer they not investigate those calls thoroughly?

In all seriousness, do we live on the same planet?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You'd prefer they not investigate those calls thoroughly?

You'd prefer they waste their time doing a thorough investigation on an "incident" where it becomes obvious pretty quickly is BS?

In all seriousness, do we live on the same planet?

Yeah, this isn't Bucc, it's Jon. Of course he's OK with giving exceptional police powers to the state.

[ISiddiqui]

Bud Light for the prez - National Politics Blog - Political Intelligence - Boston.com

THEY ARE DRINKING BUD LIGHT?!!

Impeach him

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You'd prefer they not investigate those calls thoroughly?

In all seriousness, do we live on the same planet?

What did he learn by going into the house that he wouldn't have learned by staying on the porch?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I
You're the one pretending we live in a fairy tale world where all cops are angels and everyone they arrest is evil. I'm just saying there is a big grey area in between.

Nope, I've actually criticized police officers multiple times in these threads, questioned (lack of) discipline decisions, and here, supported the very quick termination of one who was just completely out of control.

That's (one of) the differences between you and me. You track record is 100% criticism/hatred. There's no grey areas at all with you. You even carefully screen the information you post here to eliminate anything that might not support your hate. Perfect example here. I don't believe for a second that you didn't know the result of the link you posted. You left it out because it didn't support your crusade. It if supported it, it'd be in there.

I do though, appreciate that you've apparently taking a huge step forward and resisted the temptation, that I know you had, to say, "now, watch molson come in here and say what this cop did was OK". Apparently you draw the line on that just before racism, but after beating up women. Class act.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

You'd prefer they waste their time doing a thorough investigation on an "incident" where it becomes obvious pretty quickly is BS?

There's still conflicting reports on this so it's tough to draw lines in the sand here.

The police say that the delay/confusion was based on the fact couldn't tell that this was B.S., because Gates wouldnt give them any proper identification, and refused to come outside of the house when they showed up. In other words, Gates was acting very susicipously, and wasn't providing any information to ease that suspicion. I think for most people in this situation, the goal would be to let the police know, ASAP, that this was your house. That wasn't Gates' goal.

You're assuming that the police stayed there past their welcome, well after this was resolved, and that's just not the facts that are known right now.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Bud Light for the prez - National Politics Blog - Political Intelligence - Boston.com

THEY ARE DRINKING BUD LIGHT?!!

Impeach him

I was wondering about that this morning driving in to work (i.e. what beer they'd drink). I figured maybe a good American craft beer would make sense. But Bud Light? Eurgh....

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

There's still conflicting reports on this so it's tough to draw lines in the sand here.

I was talking more about the hypothetical, to be honest, in the context of JPhillips' question and Jon's not-really-an-answer.

I think I've actually managed to stay out of this specific argument (on Gates), so you might be confusing me with someone else.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

There's still conflicting reports on this so it's tough to draw lines in the sand here.

The police say that the delay/confusion was based on the fact couldn't tell that this was B.S., because Gates wouldnt give them any proper identification, and refused to come outside of the house when they showed up. In other words, Gates was acting very susicipously, and wasn't providing any information to ease that suspicion. I think for most people in this situation, the goal would be to let the police know, ASAP, that this was your house. That wasn't Gates' goal.

You're assuming that the police stayed there past their welcome, well after this was resolved, and that's just not the facts that are known right now.

I agree with what mr. molson said, even if his beer tastes like crap