Maximum Football???

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Here's Football Pro on E-Bay. Woot! Was this the first one or the second one???

Second. The first was Front Page Sports: Football. This is the second (the first Football Pro).

It's also the first one of the series that I bought. Man was that a great game. Light years ahead of anything on a console and ashame Seirra and Dynamix didn't put much muscle into the game following this verseion. Every version after this one was basically just more plays, update real player rosters, and maybe some added tweaks here and there.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Second. The first was Front Page Sports: Football. This is the second (the first Football Pro).

It's also the first one of the series that I bought. Man was that a great game. Light years ahead of anything on a console and ashame Seirra and Dynamix didn't put much muscle into the game following this verseion. Every version after this one was basically just more plays, update real player rosters, and maybe some added tweaks here and there.

That's right. I'm pretty sure this was the first of the series I bought, and I'm pretty sure I bought every one up and including '99.

[aran]

i had FBPro98. What an awesome game. It completely astounded me that a game could emulate the NFL like that. For some reason i've always kinda disliked franchise mode in madden 'cause it could not come close to FBPro's, although the on-the-field gameplay was frustrating as all hell.

Speaking of Front Page Sports games, i must've set Basball Pro to simulate every night for over a month. I'd read stats and info after each season and get into it. That was the first sim i really fell in love with.

[cartman]

Wow. After reading the posts over on the MF board, I had to doublecheck the URL to make sure it wasn't Free Republic or Daily Kos...

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Here's Football Pro on E-Bay. Woot! Was this the first one or the second one???


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...QQcmdZViewItem

I had this one, and then 98. Now that I think of it, I have no idea where *either* copy got to.

[QuikSand]

I still have all of them. *sniff*

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

The best part is that he'll throw his weight around in polictical threads. The guy doesn't even have the ability to see that Maximum Football was going to be one of the all-time busts. We are supposed to believe he has the ability to critically think well enough to contribute to a political discussion?

Sorry, but what the hell does any of this have to do with political opinion? If you want to go after him for political opinion, find a damn political thread.

Now for his stance on this game, only one word seems to come to mind... fanboy


Oh, and did I mention. This game wouldn't be worth 40 dollars if it came with a 39 dollar credit.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I still have all of them. *sniff*

I feel your pain, still bummed over the 99 debacle. That was one of the few games that I had sale date stamped in my brain and set the money aside ready to go.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Sorry, but what the hell does any of this have to do with political opinion? If you want to go after him for political opinion, find a damn political thread.

Now for his stance on this game, only one word seems to come to mind... fanboy

I hit on this indirectly on my post up above. The fanboy behavior towards this game is incredibly similar to those who espouse straight line left or straight line right views. It's us against them. Anyone who dare questions our views is the enemy, for it is impossible for us to be wrong, they are morons for feeling we are not 100% correct.

As with all things, the truth lies somewhere in between. Sometimes it is real close to one side or the other, other times its in the middle.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cartman

I hit on this indirectly on my post up above. The fanboy behavior towards this game is incredibly similar to those who espouse straight line left or straight line right views. It's us against them. Anyone who dare questions our views is the enemy, for it is impossible for us to be wrong, they are morons for feeling we are not 100% correct.

As with all things, the truth lies somewhere in between. Sometimes it is real close to one side or the other, other times its in the middle.

On that note, yes I can see a correlation. But to use a person's opinion of a game as some sort of litmus test to their other views is just insane.

The post I quoted (not this quote but the quote being refered to in this one) seemed to be more of an attempt to fan the flames a bit by calling out his political stance and make some kind of relevance judgement on it based on his opinion of the game.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

More nanny-state tripe? Why not let the customers decide if they want to buy it? What a radical idea, eh comrade?

with all due respect, Bubba did bring it upon himself with this balderdash like what I've quoted

[spcd]

I hope you folks forgive a somewhat critical first post. Been lurking for a short while, and must say that while this thread has been hillarious in places, creative and superbly entertaining, it's bitterly mean spirited, and for no other reason than the developer and publisher have conducted themselves as most other developers and publishers do in this industry.

Firstly, to overly critique Matrix's integrity for releasing the game in it's apparent unfinished state appears strange. Hands up anyone who bought CM4 it's week? That game had the dubious honour of being perhaps the only sports sim which couldn't keep the score correctly, yet it was released. More recently, games such as CIV IV and AOE have been shipped knowingly not working on certain graphics cards. So unless you folks keep to FOF and don't buy any other games, the sloppy mess oozing out as version 1 of this game should surprise no one.

Which brings me on to Matrix. I'm mostly a wargamer, and I own a half dozen of their games. I'd never buy another without it being on the market 6 months though. After waiting a year for War In The Pacific to handle what I would assume to be a core part of the game: preventing American leaders mysteriously being replaced by Japanese ones, or Battles In Normandy, where the response to a bug making AI units invincible unless playing on very easy, was.....to play on very easy, then MF looks polished compared to those efforts. However, where Matrix usually excel is their perserverance: they recently released a patch to a game released 12 months ago, and they attempt to truly fix their games. So if this was a "normal" Matrix game, I'd feel assured that within 6-12 months it would have it's bugs taken care of, if not the design.

That rather happily leads to the other problem; the developer. It appears that his combination of ill-advised, yet fairly innocuous comments regarding text sims, and bizarre development practices, have garnered the wrath which has provoked such critical appraisal of this game. There's a reason most programmers should be kept away from message boards about their own game, and from boards in general: they tend to display a woeful lack of professionalism and make infamatory comments. Don't know if any of you have any Paradox games, but whenever Johan displays what can only be charitably described as amateur-hour release methods, or insults a paying customer I cringe, and wonder if their marketing department has ever tried to have him physically restrained or break his fingers. About the only programmer I've ever read for any length of time, who conducts himself with rare elegance and dignity is Marc Vaughn, and not being Marc Vaughn shouldn't be a crime should it? Does Winter make stupid comments? Of course, who doesn't. That alone shouldn't be enough to crucify him. Neither should the posts coming out of Matrix, which are being parsed to a remarkable degree in attempts to further ridicule what is truly, just a normal quality game release these days.

What should though, is the ulcer this game is going to turn into over the coming months. Other Matrix games have had professional programmers working half-time on bugs, Sports Interactive have had full time professionals, and still taken months to fix. I sincerely doubt that this chap would be up to the task if he wasn't doing it part-time-whenever-I-get-10-minutes-to-work-at-it style, so I can't imagine how long even an interim patch would take, especially given the blinkered fan boys masquerading as beta testers which most game company's rely on for their "quality control."

The other feature worthy of slamming IMHO, is this game's concept itself. Having read the interview linked from several years ago, it appears that the motivation to make this game was so that a CFL fan could have a game which didn't have "a bunch of players I've never heard of" in it. Hardly the lofty credentials I'd be looking for if I wanted someone to design a game which was aimed at NFL and College fans. Rather than stick to the 15 people who think CFL is as great a league as he does, Mr Winter disingenously decided to go for customizability tm (and thank you to the person who minted that upthread ) and pretend that this game could handle leagues he obviously wasn't interested in, or cared about. Further, rather than being good in any facet of the game, MF looks mediocre in a dozen of them. Is there really someone out there who wants a bad arcade game, a circa-1990 career mode, or a Play Development System which can't be used for fear that it breaks the AI? I'm not in market research, but I would have thought that the desperate or misinformed rarely collides with sim football fans, the only demographic combination which would appear to actually want this game.

When I first read about the game I was delighted, I'm someone who'd have loved a game sim where I could design plays, a gameplan, go head to head with someone else and get some graphical feedback. But I'd rather go back to Statis Pro Football than attempt to create plays which have to be bad enough for the AI to handle, and as for head-to-head play.....sigh.

But worse than that, it seems to me, that where this game lacks is a devoted and blind collection of fans equipped to silence the naysayers and spiteful. Unfortunately, the three people posting at Matrix, two of whom don't understand how yardage is calculated, aren't up for the task, so it's open season to bash Matrix/Winter for behaviour all too common in the game industry.

Apologies for the length, rambling nature, and semi-contradictory nature of the post, although such a mien seems appropriate given the game itself. It just seems that with such a wealth of truly original material to work with, such as not realizing that special teams was important in football, it seems a waste of time to hammer away for behaviour which just about every other developer/publisher combo are guilty of.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm sorry, but you lost me when you compared Maximum Football's bugs to Civ4 (which worked well and was a great game out of the box for a majority of users.) There is no comparision.

Also, I think you will find that most text sim programmers generally do not go trashing the competition. I also know that at least one text sim developer did offer refunds when they released a game with multiple problems as I got a refund.

I'm still waiting to see what Matrix does as far as refunds for those that want them for this travesty of a release.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by spcd

not being Marc Vaughn shouldn't be a crime should it?

yes...yes it should be.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

Ok, I just actually did read quickly through the rest of your post. Most of the text sim programmers generally do conduct themselves well from what I've seen. Marc is certainly exceptional, but I would argue that Jim represents himself very well. Arlie and Gary generally do a good job of representing themselves and the genre in a positive manner as well. Shaun also manages to represent himself well. I've never seen any of them spout the unprofessional tripe that David has.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Here's Football Pro on E-Bay. Woot! Was this the first one or the second one???


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...QQcmdZViewItem

Look at the box art, silly -- Vol. 2, No. 1. This was the first version of Football Pro with the NFL license, but the second version of the game. The FPS Football didn't have an NFL license. I think this one is commonly called Football Pro '94, but they didn't start the putting the year on it until '95.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spcd

I hope you folks forgive a somewhat critical first post.

You begin on a rather doubtful hope, but ... we'll see.

... for no other reason than the developer and publisher have conducted themselves as most other developers and publishers do in this industry.

Disagree. The assholiness isn't unique for certain. Heck, it isn't even unusual IMO. But I'd say this case steps into more rarified territory with a special combination of programming ineptitude, kindergarten typing skills, and all the people pleasing skills of a rabid komodo dragon. THAT's the hook here, it isn't the same old crap from a developer, it's _worse_ than the same old crap in multiple areas.

the sloppy mess oozing out as version 1 of this game should surprise no one.

To some degree I'd say "see above". Beyond that, I haven't seen too many people here who I would say are surprised by anything that's come to pass with this game. Regardless of any of that however, the aptly described "sloppy mess" deserves the scorn it gets for being so, the sins of others do nothing to excuse this AFAIC.

Which brings me on to Matrix. ... I'd never buy another without it being on the market 6 months though.

Which I imagine probably means you have above-average judgement when it comes to game buying. But again, this really doesn't help this case of the current debacle IMO, if anything it compounds it.

That rather happily leads to the other problem; the developer.

Hmm ... I'm not sure I would use the word "happily" but otherwise you seem to be on the right path here.

There's a reason most programmers should be kept away from message boards about their own game, and from boards in general: they tend to display a woeful lack of professionalism and make infamatory comments.

Preach brother preach.

... and wonder if their marketing department has ever tried to have him physically restrained or break his fingers.

Nicely done. (And something I've wondered in virtually the exact same terms any number of times)

About the only programmer I've ever read for any length of time, who conducts himself with rare elegance and dignity is Marc Vaughn

Agreed, or at least to the praise of Vaughn as the model of how developers can interact positively with the public. He isn't alone in doing a passable job, but I would almost certainly put him at the top of the list in the genre in this regard.

That alone shouldn't be enough to crucify him.

Damn. You were doing so well too

Sorry, gross stupidity gets what it has coming AFAIC.

just a normal quality game release these days.

Again, I don't disagree with your general premise on this point, except that instead of finding the criticism in this instance too harsh, I believe you're really pointing out a different (and more serious) problem: the absence of adequate criticism of product that's released in such half-assed fashion.

it seems a waste of time to hammer away for behaviour which just about every other developer/publisher combo are guilty of.

See above.

All in all, I see a few reasonably good points in your post, I just disagree with the conclusion those points lead you to.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Second. The first was Front Page Sports: Football. This is the second (the first Football Pro).

It's also the first one of the series that I bought. Man was that a great game. Light years ahead of anything on a console and ashame Seirra and Dynamix didn't put much muscle into the game following this verseion. Every version after this one was basically just more plays, update real player rosters, and maybe some added tweaks here and there.

I don't know ... I thought FB Pro '94 (this one) was just the first FB Pro with the NFL license. I though FB Pro '95 was a huge leap forward in presentation, AI and graphics. No doubt '96 was a patch, then '97 was another patch with online play added. I thought '98 was a solid update as well.

The real disappointment was Baseball Pro '94. I'm not sure if I ever made it through a season, since it took my PC about 90 minutes to sim a day of games. The follow-up versions were better, but never fulfilled the promise of Football Pro.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by spcd

...[long thought-out post]...

First of all, welcome to the board. I really hope that you continue to contribute with your opinions on this board because you have given a different viewpoint that I haven't heard thus far. With that said, I am in disagreement with most of it. First of all, you can always argue that some other games require patching after the fact, most do.

The problem with this scenario is that we have a programmer who already had one failed attempt with his first CFL game in which he had given no support after the fact. I am all for someone learning from their mistakes and giving it another go, but the promised released dates that occured over 3 years, the supposed career play, default plays that break the system, stolen logos, display issues, and yardage problems are signs that he didn't really learn too much from his first stint. And it took him over 5 years to do this.

There can be some arguement to whether what was done in this thread was mean-spirited, but there is a fine line between fun and derision and the other board didn't get to see 99% of what was created here unless they knew what the FOFC is, so I don't see how we can affect anything that they did since there is no direct link.

And once again, welcome to the FOFC sir.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

You know, I think we bear some of the responsibility for the state of the game. I mean, we've been hammering Matrix and WinterValley for a long time, especially hard the last few weeks. Do you think they finally got fed up with the negative publicity and decided, "Fuck it, release the game and we'll deal with the bugs later."

And can you blame them? Realistically, theres no way that team of testers was going to uncover all of the bugs at the rate they've been going, so they were in for a world of hurt as far as bugs go no mater how many more times they backed off a release date. At least this way they were able to silence some of their critics, the "Vaporware" crowd.

My impression given a benefit of the doubt is that David is a well-meaning programmer who developed an ambitious idea that he couldn't follow through, ended up with a distribution deal and had no idea how to successfully complete the project.

Where I think things went wrong is that David was overly optimistic at best or simply dishonest at the worst over the years about the state of the game. He created the "vaporware crowd" on his own by insisting for literally years that the game was almost complete.

By and large, I'm somewhat surprised Matrix didn't pull the plug on the game and cut their losses. They seem like a knowledgeable and sharp outfit. I'm assuming they let emotions get the best of them. I think they've developed a friendship with David and they let that interfere with their judgement. I'm sure they also knew pulling the plug would destroy his career, so they continued to give him an opportunity to salvage the game and pull it out of the fire. I can't believe they are happy with the final product, but maybe it's that emotional connection that's keeping them from seeing the flaws that the rest of us have seen.

A lot of the discussion about the game interestingly reminds me of FB Pro '99. I think the parallels are uncanny. Both games were much delayed -- I think FB Pro '99 was originally slated for an August release and didn't end up getting released until after Christmas, when obviously it still wasn't ready. Sierra closed their eyes and ears and keeping insisting everything was fine and all the problems would be fixed with a patch.

That's my impression. Maybe David made the game he wanted, but I doubt it. I think the game he wanted to make is just a bit outside his abilities. I mean, c'mon -- what he basically is trying to do is recreate Football Pro, and that was far from a one-man operation. It was a novel effort unfortunately doomed to failure. And ultimately I don't think that's anyone's fault but David and Matrix.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

That's my impression. Maybe David made the game he wanted, but I doubt it. I think the game he wanted to make is just a bit outside his abilities. I mean, c'mon -- what he basically is trying to do is recreate Football Pro, and that was far from a one-man operation. It was a novel effort unfortunately doomed to failure. And ultimately I don't think that's anyone's fault but David and Matrix.

Actually.. he tried making NFL Pro, CFL Pro and AFL Pro all rolled into one. All games have their own rules and quirks associated with them. If you can't make at least one good, you are setting yourself up to fail trying to do all 3.

I'll give him all the credit in the world for attempting this but, at this point, since this is his hobby, he should have released it on his own at a modest $9.99 price sticker and made it clear it was his dream and while still not an unfinished product, the funds would go into tweaking it long term.. blah blah blah. I wouldn't even touch it at $39.99 for $9.99.. I might have given it a whirl especially if I new he was a hobby type developer. But, I'm long past even considering putting money on this...

[MJ4H]

FB pro 96 was a big leap in graphic quality at least. It went from a really cruddy resolution in the 95 version, to a very crisp resolution in 96.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Or hell, get the whole numbered series.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...ayphotohosting

The memories... I taught my wife the basics of football using Football Pro '95. And then she kicked my arse in the SuperBowl playing with Denver as I played with my Chargers. It's funny, but she still remembers some players from that team and anytime they mention Tom Nalen on Broncos, she flashback to Football Pro '95.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

The memories... I taught my wife the basics of football using Football Pro '95. And then she kicked my arse in the SuperBowl playing with Denver as I played with my Chargers. It's funny, but she still remembers some players from that team and anytime they mention Tom Nalen on Broncos, she flashback to Football Pro '95.

Do people still talk about Tom Nalen???

EDIT: Oh shit, that guy still plays!

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

The memories... I taught my wife the basics of football using Football Pro '95. And then she kicked my arse in the SuperBowl playing with Denver as I played with my Chargers. It's funny, but she still remembers some players from that team and anytime they mention Tom Nalen on Broncos, she flashback to Football Pro '95.

*wipes tear*

This reminds me of my ex-girlfriend. She recognizes like 3 NFL players because of my constant talk about them

Curtis Martin (because I'm a Jets fan)
Kerry Collins (because her older brother looked a lot like him)
Peyton Manning (because she found him "sexy" )

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Peyton Manning (because she found him "sexy )

I hope you dumped that dumb slut FAST.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

*wipes tear*

This reminds me of my ex-girlfriend. She recognizes like 3 NFL players because of my constant talk about them

Curtis Martin (because I'm a Jets fan)
Kerry Collins (because her older brother looked a lot like him)
Peyton Manning (because she found him "sexy" )

That's one of the reasons I started hating the Cowboys. My mom and sister both thought Danny White was "so cute".

I'm 10 years old thinking, "This is football! Stop saying that!!!" Wow, that really annoyed me.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Do people still talk about Tom Nalen???

EDIT: Oh shit, that guy still plays!

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...&contentID=738

Yep....amazing, isn't it? A mention of him when the Chargers play the Broncos and she tells me how she kicked my ass in the playoffs in Football Pro '95. Then every year, we got the new version of football pro and watched its demise with Football Pro '99 when they tried to implement the 3-D engine. It was a shame really. I kept thinking something was wrong with my computer and soon realized it was the game. I couldn't believe it.

:::sniffle:::

[Antmeister]

dola...had to correct my post. She kicked my ass is the Championship game. I don't know why I kept saying SuperBowl considering they are both in the AFC. I just know she won the SuperBowl.

[MIJB#19]

spcd,

Some in this thread have gone out of hand, but there's a thin line between sarcasm and plain bashing. But you have to see that what's been going on with this game is, well, amateurism. And yes, I realize that it's basically started as a hobby, but as some already posted, when Matrix got involved, it wasn't just a hobby anymore.

The Daivd screenshot, the constant 'release tomorrow'. In my education to become a programmer, these were things we learned in the freshman year as being not-done. Sure, mistakes happen in the business, maybe 'Daivd' is dyslextic (sp?), postponing release happens, but the total picture has been a bad prescendant of what turnsout a bug-laden game. Still, I've seen it first hand, software is rushed out the door. Customers are kept in the dark about what is goingon and when it's done, but usually you keep that away from them.

Of course, us FOF fanboys know that FOF2 had some bugs that we'd today call game breakers (playoffs injury bug, teams trading top 1st round picks for 20/20 punters, drafting stud CBs in the 4th rounds, Ryan Leaf being the best QB in the game), yet people played the 'hell' out of it and the same could happen with Maximum Football.

It's not impossible that five years from know we look back to the happenings of the past two weeks and laugh about it, realizing that Maximum Football has become such a good product and how bad it was years ago. With people as dedicated as Erik Rutins on the job, I don't think it's impossible.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I feel your pain, still bummed over the 99 debacle. That was one of the few games that I had sale date stamped in my brain and set the money aside ready to go.

Yeah me too. I remember calling EB daily to see if it was in. I drove through a blizzard to get it once it was in. Two hours drive time to go five miles.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'll give him all the credit in the world for attempting this but, at this point, since this is his hobby, he should have released it on his own at a modest $9.99 price sticker and made it clear it was his dream and while still not an unfinished product, the funds would go into tweaking it long term.. blah blah blah. I wouldn't even touch it at $39.99 for $9.99.. I might have given it a whirl especially if I knew he was a hobby type developer. But, I'm long past even considering putting money on this...

Yup. Whatever "sympathy" or "breaks" or "understanding" I am supposed to give WinterValley because it is not his day job goes away when he charges $40.00 for the game--the price charged for software by full-time professional developers.

If my law firm charges a client full price to draft a contract--and then ends up drafting a contract with lots of errors in it--the client will not be appeased by an explaination that we only put one associate on the project half-time, so what did they expect? They will respond that they expected to get the same quality of service that other law firms (and our own firm) provides for the going rate of legal services. They don't care whether we had 10 partners working on it or one drunk monkey. If they pay full price, they expect full-price quality product.

Same thing with any purchase. If any company decides to cut costs by understaffing production, they have that right. But the customers certainly have the right to complain if the resulting products do not meet the expectation for the price point.

In this case, a $9.99 price tag to help fund the evenings and weekends that it took programming the game--would have come with a whole different set of expectations than did charging full price. And most of the people complaining now would actually be giving encouragement and would be providing more in the way of constructive criticism than anything.

I like the way Matrix has handled this. Daivd rubs me the wrong way, but I am a sucker for anyone's wedding picture. People just look so . . . happy at their wedding; it makes it hard for me to dislike them. I also like the fact that one man is trying to make the best computer football game on the market. I just don't like being asked to spend $40 on it and then being told that I am not to expect $40 worth of product or support.

[albionmoonlight]

dola--

welcome to the board spcd. Well reasoned posts are always welcome here and will (generally) receive a well reasoned response. Heck, you got JonInMiddleGA to disagree with you without threatening to shoot you in the back on the head. We've had posters here for years who haven't managed to accomplish that.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I just don't like being asked to spend $40 on it and then being told that I am not to expect $40 worth of product or support.

That, to me, is the best single crystalization of this whole issue.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

You on the other hand obviously subscribe to the school of thought that you should 'be thought for' by big brother, your loving 'nanny-state' and then you attack me for my 'critical thinking" skills? Unbelievable.

You have no idea what we agree or disagree on. My point is that based on the information we had on Maximum Football you couldn't have been more wrong. It was obvious to a third grader what a mess it would be.

Based on this, it would be hard for me to take your political commentary very seriously. Since the issues are more complicated then Maximum Football and you couldn't put together 1+1, why should anyone believe you can put together ax+by=c?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...&contentID=738

Yep....amazing, isn't it? A mention of him when the Chargers play the Broncos and she tells me how she kicked my ass in the playoffs in Football Pro '95. Then every year, we got the new version of football pro and watched its demise with Football Pro '99 when they tried to implement the 3-D engine. It was a shame really. I kept thinking something was wrong with my computer and soon realized it was the game. I couldn't believe it.

:::sniffle:::

The Football Pro '99 thing was devistating. It was the first time, I recall, where I actually went on the internet and looked at forums to find patches, work arounds, and just more information on a game. I worked so damned hard to try to get that game to work...

It was very disappointing. It may have been shortly thereafter that I first stumbled across FOF. I think that sounds about right.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Now for his stance on this game, only one word seems to come to mind... fanboy

How about... not bright enough to see an obvious trainwreck?

[Yossarian]

Here's a bet.

The price is at $40 for one month, mibbe two at most.

I suspect that Matrix are following the 'unsigned band' model with the price of this one. Release it at full price and sell to the hardcore. Then, when the initial 'surge' of sales has happened, drop the price and sell it to the curious.

The band I was in who got signed to an indi label did this - sold the cd at £11.99 at the 'release party' and for one week. Then dropped the price to £7 for all other gigs / online sales.

Result is that the faithful bankroll the costs and then you just hope the lower price point piques the curiousity of the masses.

[Cydney]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

That, to me, is the best single crystalization of this whole issue.

Exactly! I could hop on down to EB and get WWSM2006 for five bucks less.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

dola...had to correct my post. She kicked my ass is the Championship game. I don't know why I kept saying SuperBowl considering they are both in the AFC. I just know she won the SuperBowl.

Who knows, maybe you had custahmized it back in the day.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Yup. Whatever "sympathy" or "breaks" or "understanding" I am supposed to give WinterValley because it is not his day job goes away when he charges $40.00 for the game--the price charged for software by full-time professional developers.

If my law firm charges a client full price to draft a contract--and then ends up drafting a contract with lots of errors in it--the client will not be appeased by an explaination that we only put one associate on the project half-time, so what did they expect? They will respond that they expected to get the same quality of service that other law firms (and our own firm) provides for the going rate of legal services. They don't care whether we had 10 partners working on it or one drunk monkey. If they pay full price, they expect full-price quality product.

Same thing with any purchase. If any company decides to cut costs by understaffing production, they have that right. But the customers certainly have the right to complain if the resulting products do not meet the expectation for the price point.

In this case, a $9.99 price tag to help fund the evenings and weekends that it took programming the game--would have come with a whole different set of expectations than did charging full price. And most of the people complaining now would actually be giving encouragement and would be providing more in the way of constructive criticism than anything.

I like the way Matrix has handled this. Daivd rubs me the wrong way, but I am a sucker for anyone's wedding picture. People just look so . . . happy at their wedding; it makes it hard for me to dislike them. I also like the fact that one man is trying to make the best computer football game on the market. I just don't like being asked to spend $40 on it and then being told that I am not to expect $40 worth of product or support.

Albion,

You always do have a way with words. I think it would be hard for anyone to disagree with any of that. Well put.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Yes, your next great quest in life can be maybe having a government recall on single-ply toilet paper...I mean folks that might buy that stuff just have no idea what they're in for.

Actually, sir, Charmain Plus (with aloe!) is single-ply, and it is the greatest thing to happen for the bunghole since K-Y. I believe we covered this back on page 17 or so. Get with the program.

[IwasHere]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I just don't like being asked to spend $40 on it and then being told that I am not to expect $40 worth of product or support.

Funny I thought that was BBCF.



And by the way, Cottonelle Wipes are the greatest thing to happen for the "bunghole" in years. No matter how sloppy it gets down there, in the end your ass, like a $15.00 Tijuana hooker, is "Nice and Clean".

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I feel your pain, still bummed over the 99 debacle. That was one of the few games that I had sale date stamped in my brain and set the money aside ready to go.

Me, too. I owned every version, and bought all but the first one on release date (got the first one about two months after release). FB Pro '99 broke my heart.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It was very disappointing. It may have been shortly thereafter that I first stumbled across FOF. I think that sounds about right.

That sounds about right for me, too. I do think a mention of FOF while either waiting for or crying about FP '99 is what got me to the Sideline.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

That sounds about right for me, too. I do think a mention of FOF while either waiting for or crying about FP '99 is what got me to the Sideline.

im sure that if we did a study, most of the old guys from the orig. sideline came to know FOF by looking for something to satiate their football hunger after we got hosed on FP 99.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

im sure that if we did a study, most of the old guys from the orig. sideline came to know FOF by looking for something to satiate their football hunger after we got hosed on FP 99.

that's the case for me. i got into text simming when i picked up FP '99. or, i should say, when i was reading the manual for FP '99 before i found out it was a broken game. still, i was happy to see that something like that existed, so i set out to try to find something similar.

enter FOF.

the rest is hero-fucking history.

[Solecismic]

That's sad in a way. Several companies contacted me back in 1999, and of those, Sierra interested me the most, specifically because of FB Pro.

Their development group worked about an hour away south of Seattle. I went down there, made some decent contacts, talked with their programmers and managers. I felt there was an excellent chance I would add a career mode for FB Pro 2000.

After that visit and quite a bit of email and phone conversations, I was scheduled to go down there again to finalize a plan. We were going to re-release FOF with their additional artwork and licensing and some new features, and then work on integrating the games.

About a week before the meeting, I saw the headlines, and heard that many of the people I met with had been laid off. Never did go to that meeting, and I've never heard back from most of the people I met, though those I have heard from are still in a related industry, at least.

Good people, good product, but the stupidity of Sierra in handling the '99 release completely took the air out of everything. I still have a deep hatred of bass fishing and calf roping as a result.

EA actually called me while this was going on. While I never had the impression that highers up cared about the product, the individuals I worked with were very good and, if we hadn't been screwed by AOL and the NFL on licensing, I'm convinced that FOF Online would have at least had a good chance of success.

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

EA actually called me while this was going on. While I never had the impression that highers up cared about the product, the individuals I worked with were very good and, if we hadn't been screwed by AOL and the NFL on licensing, I'm convinced that FOF Online would have at least had a good chance of success.

FOF Online would have been a dream come true for us FOF-lovers and probably a great means for you to have perenial royalties to help ensure the continuity of Solecismic.

Still you made us all very happy by introducing multiplayer mode through FOF2004 and that helped replace, in many ways, what we missed from not having FOF Online.

Actually, the reason I am replying to your post here is because I was on the solecismic.com website about an hour ago, browsing and reading through the pages and I don't think I have ever told you how much you did for me and in many ways, how much you have meant to me in my day-to-day life ever since I found out about FOF.
I wanted to express my gratitude to you Jim for everything you have put into since 1998 and the first FOF. You have brought me my very best moments of PC gaming and there is not a single day that passes where I don't "think" FOF (wether this is FOF2 and my longtime career, FOF2004, TCY or the IHOF --which exists because of you--).

So a big, big thank you for all the talent, passion and professionalism you have put into.

[Zippo]

this thread is making me want to buy maximum football just to see how it is as bad as everyone says it is.