The 2010 FIFA World Cup thread (will contain spoilers)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Then again, i seem to be the resident "Debbie Downer" of the board with regard to the USMNT these days, so I appreciate your taking everything I say with a grain of salt.

I think it's good to have a fan like you to keep us grounded. But every fan has to at some point adjust his views to the reality of the situation. Sometimes that's you. Sometimes that's me. Hopefully in the end we have a realistic (but not pessimistic or optimistic) view of the squad and what it is capable of.

Your opinions have strong value and they may be right. I just don't agree with the depth to which you express their negativity. The content itself does not differ much from my own, just our interpretations of them (if that makes sense).

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Altidore and Davies are both still very young and developing players. With health and further development, they can be a strong pair up front. If we can develop depth behind them, even better.

As for your opinion, no offense, but you have been extremely pessimistic all tournament long, so I hope you'll allow me to weigh that opinion in reflection of that fact.

Altidore is starting to be the type of player who shows up and scores three goals agains T&T or someone like that but on the big stage is nowhere to be found. He was flat out horrible today...he was a real waste of a player today.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't think we had a BAD tournament...my expectations were pretty low. I think making it out of the group was about the best we could have hoped for.

maybe i'm just overreacting to those in the media or whatever who thought we were somehow now shoe-ins for the semis or something?

i just get frustrated because i think we have more potential that we're not making use of. frustrated with bradley's tactical decisions, frustrated with the untimely injuries, frustrated with the lack of development in some of our players, or at some positions by our national team pool, etc. Frustrated by the fact that the team continues to leak early goals, etc.

[ace1914]

You guys do realize Altidore is only 20 years old? Do you guys remember how inconsistent Landon was? A lot of unbridled talent.

He's going to get to that point in probably 2 years or less. It showed in qualifying. Barring injury, I'm not worried about Jozy's maturation by 2014.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I have been fairly realistic, IMO, and your opinions are far lower than mine. To me that says you stray too far to the pessimistic side. I doubt you'll find many in this thread who have said I have not been realistic, but I would bet we could find many who would say you have been too pessimistic. That's not to discount what you're saying, but I do think you're judging too harshly and maybe should step back and re-evaluate a bit.

...

I don't think anyone, myself included, is saying the US had a great tournament. But there is quite a gulf between "great" and where your opinion has settled.

Reading back, this by me came off too harshly, I think, and doesn't accurately reflect the quality with which I view your opinions here on the side. So I hope you don't take offense.

Like I said in my last post, I think we jsut interpret things differently. I, of course, believe I am taking a realistic view and you a pessimistic view. For you, you're the realist and I am the optimist. It's all on a scale, you know. So be it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

It's a shame you didn't get to see the game today. I saw a guy gutting it out despite obviously not being a full fitness who fought off what easily could have been a penalty call to get a quality shot off.

Not a good game, but nothing even slightly resembling horrible.

Thanks for putting that in better words than I could. I was proud of the effort he made to get free of the CB on that run in the box. He almost had that one.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

It's a shame you didn't get to see the game today. I saw a guy gutting it out despite obviously not being a full fitness who fought off what easily could have been a penalty call to get a quality shot off.

Not a good game, but nothing even slightly resembling horrible.

If he's not at full fitness then he's hurting the team by being out there "gutting it out." For a guy who doesn't really contribute to offensive buildup much (he's more of an "in the box/poacher" type), and whose only job is to put the biscuit in the basket...he didn't do that job today. We can only judge him on that.

I don't think he was as wretched as maybe he was just made out to be by rowech, but it was definitely a poor performance (injured or not) in the biggest game of his career to-date.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by rowech

Altidore is starting to be the type of player who shows up and scores three goals agains T&T or someone like that but on the big stage is nowhere to be found. He was flat out horrible today...he was a real waste of a player today.

Did you not see this kid against both Slovenia and Algeria? He had very good games in both. I'm not worried at all. I mean he did require a huge transfer fee for an American player in the Spanish league. He's got an amazing first touch and uses his body very well. The kid is going to very good and I wouldn't be surprised to see him as a top scorer in La Liga by 2014.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Reading back, this by me came off too harshly, I think, and doesn't accurately reflect the quality with which I view your opinions here on the side. So I hope you don't take offense.

Like I said in my last post, I think we jsut interpret things differently. I, of course, believe I am taking a realistic view and you a pessimistic view. For you, you're the realist and I am the optimist. It's all on a scale, you know. So be it.

No offense taken Chief...no offense taken.

We both want the same thing in the end...we're just at different points on the spectrum of viewing it.

I think the team did just about as good as could be expected in this tournament frankly.

I'm just frustrated and irritated because I think they were capable of doing better.

Does that make sense even??

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Did you not see this kid against both Slovenia and Algeria? He had very good games in both. I'm not worried at all. I mean he did require a huge transfer fee for an American player in the Spanish league. He's got an amazing first touch and uses his body very well. The kid is going to very good and I wouldn't be surprised to see him as a top scorer in La Liga by 2014.

I really do hope you're right.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Does Bradley stay? I think he is still in danger of losing his job

I think it would be shrewd to let him go. Bump him up to a position of prestige but no power.

The problem is:

1) He repeatedly made mistakes with early tactics. In every game except the Algeria game, we gave up an early goal. That is on the coach.

2) In several games, he made poor personnel decisions. Most especially using Findlay repeatedly when he brought nothing to the game.

3) We only led for 3 minutes of the entire WC. That is not good. While the players showed heart and he made adjustments, we by no means dominated.

My point is, even though we met expectations, things could have easily gone the other way.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

If he's not at full fitness then he's hurting the team by being out there "gutting it out." For a guy who doesn't really contribute to offensive buildup much (he's more of an "in the box/poacher" type), and whose only job is to put the biscuit in the basket...he didn't do that job today. We can only judge him on that.

I don't think he was as wretched as maybe he was just made out to be by rowech, but it was definitely a poor performance (injured or not) in the biggest game of his career to-date.

I come to see that anything less than a hoisting of the FIFA World Cup trophy against a Brazil side that you defeated, 25-0, is a bad performance.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Did you not see this kid against both Slovenia and Algeria? He had very good games in both. I'm not worried at all. I mean he did require a huge transfer fee for an American player in the Spanish league. He's got an amazing first touch and uses his body very well. The kid is going to very good and I wouldn't be surprised to see him as a top scorer in La Liga by 2014.

And how were those opponents compared to England and Ghana? That's my point. He's got to be there for big games too.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ace1914

I come to see that anything less than a hoisting of the FIFA World Cup trophy against a Brazil side that you defeated, 25-0, is a bad performance.

not true.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

No offense taken Chief...no offense taken.

We both want the same thing in the end...we're just at different points on the spectrum of viewing it.

I think the team did just about as good as could be expected in this tournament frankly.

I'm just frustrated and irritated because I think they were capable of doing better.

Does that make sense even??

It does make sense, and I agree completely.

Maybe one day we'll be able to celebrate a proper quality American side.

[ace1914]

Like I said earlier,

at some point we have to admit that we just don't have quite enough talent to compete, however, its crystal clear to me that we are getting a helluva lot better than where we were in 2002 (I didn't watch 2006). Regardless, this is an obvious sign that soccer is growing in the U.S., however slow it may be.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Like I said earlier,

at some point we have to admit that we just don't have quite enough talent to compete, however, its crystal clear to me that we are getting a helluva lot better than where we were in 2002 (I didn't watch 2006). Regardless, this is an obvious sign that soccer is growing in the U.S., however slow it may be.

I think 2002 was our best effort. I thought this team had very cleaer weaknesses whereas the 02 team was solid all the way around. Not spectacular but solid. Really, 2014 has to be the moment for the US. That team really should be good.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think 2002 was our best effort. I thought this team had very cleaer weaknesses whereas the 02 team was solid all the way around. Not spectacular but solid. Really, 2014 has to be the moment for the US. That team really should be good.

Unfortunately Ghana will be really good too

[rowech]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Unfortunately Ghana will be really good too

Very true.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think 2002 was our best effort. I thought this team had very cleaer weaknesses whereas the 02 team was solid all the way around. Not spectacular but solid. Really, 2014 has to be the moment for the US. That team really should be good.

This team would have been very solid with a healthy Gooch and Davies. I think this squad had a higher level of pure individual talent than 2002, which is a good sign for the growth of soccer in the U.S.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Unfortunately Ghana will be really good too

If I had time I would like to tally your +America vs. -American posts.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm just amazed that anyone thought the US was going to win today. Or was that expectation only with the casual (or less) fan, and people who actually follow international soccer were basically just hoping against hope?

Vegas/English bookmakers had the US a very very slight favorite in general (I haven't fully caught up on the thread, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse by now).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ace1914

If I had time I would like to tally your +America vs. -American posts.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by ace1914

If I had time I would like to tally your +America vs. -American posts.

This is very easy, click to see how many posts in thread he has made.

DaddyTorgo 207

So thats 207 against, 0 for. Done!

(DT, know I'm just ribbing you)

[DaddyTorgo]

LOL

[tarcone]

If we can find a pure scorer an some defense by the next WC, we will be really good. The core of our team will be in their mid to late 20s.
We need too find those stud 16 year olds righgt now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Radii

Vegas/English bookmakers had the US a very very slight favorite in general (I haven't fully caught up on the thread, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse by now).

Of course those lines are set to influence betting, not to reflect likely outcomes. And I think it's fair to say that not all bettors are rational actors, something I suspect that is even more prominent when wagering on something that's briefly trendy (i.e. I'll give you the English propensity for wagering on footy but I'll be damned if I believe there's a significant number of Americans who wager intelligently on the game with any regularity)

[Abe Sargent]

One of the issues the US has (and Mexico too) is that they are great teams in the Concacaf, which has tons of teams, and they all suck. It even has the bad teams from South America, instead of sending them to Conmebol.

So the US and Mexico, who have great squads, are regularly playing against these chump teams in the Gold Cup and in qualifying. Where do you get battle tested? I don;t think it's any surprise that Europe and South America stay sharp perennially, because they play other tough teams all of the time.

Only twice, in the entire history of the Wold Cup, has a team from Concacaf ever made it out of the group stages in the World Cup other than Mexico or the US - Cuba in 1938 and Costa Rica in 1990.

Not a lot of competition in conference means Mexico and the US aren;t battle hardened. There aren;t any chump games at the World Cup level except when an occasional North Korea sneaks through. Ghana made it out 4 years ago, and only conceded two goals in a very tough group. Slovenia qualified out of a very competitive Euro. Algeria was much tougher than it might have appeared. England was obviously England. These aren;t games against Belize and Haiti. You can't afford to play lazy, but when does teh US learn that? One in a while in the Confederations Cup? Friendlies?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

One of the issues the US has (and Mexico too) is that they are great teams in the Concacaf, which has tons of teams, and they all suck. It even has the bad teams from South America, instead of sending them to Conmebol.

So the US and Mexico, who have great squads, are regularly playing against these chump teams in the Gold Cup and in qualifying. Where do you get battle tested? I don;t think it's any surprise that Europe and South America stay sharp perennially, because they play other tough teams all of the time.

Only twice, in the entire history of the Wold Cup, has a team from Concacaf ever made it out of the group stages in the World Cup other than Mexico or the US - Cuba in 1938 and Costa Rica in 1990.

Not a lot of competition in conference means Mexico and the US aren;t battle hardened. There aren;t any chump games at the World Cup level except when an occasional North Korea sneaks through. Ghana made it out 4 years ago, and only conceded two goals in a very tough group. Slovenia qualified out of a very competitive Euro. Algeria was much tougher than it might have appeared. England was obviously England. These aren;t games against Belize and Haiti. You can't afford to play lazy, but when does teh US learn that? One in a while in the Confederations Cup? Friendlies?

They've simply got to play much tougher friendlies is the answer. Much much tougher. And continue to get more guys playing overseas in top leagues, playing against top teams on a regular basis.

[RainMaker]

I think the U.S. has done a good job of scheduling friendlies against top teams to garner more competition. As well as their experience in the Confederations Cup. I don't think this team was shell shocked or anything. Many of their players play in top leagues and some of the stars have played in the World Cup before.

And while CONCACAF is bad, I think it's important to point out that the U.S. doesn't have a true home field advantage in qualifying. Well at least not like most other teams. Many of their home games play out like neutral sites while going into a country like Honduras or Mexico can be a daunting task.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Should've been Edu and Buddle instead of Clark and Findley. Everyone in the world knew it before Bob Bradley.

Fuck.

Just got home. Watched this game at a sports bar with 200 other folks. Atmosphere was awesome.

This was the MAIN sentiment from the get-go and helped contribute significantly to the loss.

We wasted two of our 3 subs by the 45th minute because of guys who SUCK that were in the starting lineup.

[DaddyTorgo]

The thing that irritates me is that it's not like Bradley didn't know that they sucked. Clark had sucked all tournament. And Findley had shown nothing. And he knew he had Maurice Edu, who the team had won with, who he could have played instead of Clark. But instead he tried to get cute. Same for Findley. Findley had shown nothing all tournament and still kept getting run out there? What's up with that?

As the old saying goes: If you have two starters for one position, you don't really have one true STARTER for a position.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I think it would be shrewd to let him go. Bump him up to a position of prestige but no power.

The problem is:

1) He repeatedly made mistakes with early tactics. In every game except the Algeria game, we gave up an early goal. That is on the coach.

2) In several games, he made poor personnel decisions. Most especially using Findlay repeatedly when he brought nothing to the game.

3) We only led for 3 minutes of the entire WC. That is not good. While the players showed heart and he made adjustments, we by no means dominated.

My point is, even though we met expectations, things could have easily gone the other way.

I don't think 1 is necessarily true. I think the tactics were ok, what gave up the early goals were players playing like shit early on. I think all the early goals were on easy turnover/transitions, were they not? You might be able to point to 2 as a cause of the early goals, but not the tactics.

[RainMaker]

As for today's game, it's disappointing. I think they had a great chance to go somewhat deep into this tournament considering their draw.

I do have to say that I thought Bradley not only handled today's game horribly, he handled the whole World Cup the same way. Findley looked a step behind most of the tournament. And his decisions at midfield were abysmal. Clark had no business being out there and just killed them in the first half. This was surprising considering how well Feilhaber had been playing. The minute Feilhaber came in and they switched up, they immediately started to see progress.

I know some people will say he did a good job getting them to where they are, but I'd disagree. This team is much more talented than any team they've ever had. They had more talent than Slovenia, Algeria, and Ghana. They shouldn't have been scrapping the whole tournament. I'm also factoring in some horrific decisions he made in qualifying (playing Oneywu late in the Costa Rica game).

I just think the program has a chance to turn the corner now. They have guys playing in the top leagues overseas and that should hopefully continue. They need an elite manager now.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Should've been Edu and Buddle instead of Clark and Findley. Everyone in the world knew it before Bob Bradley.

Fuck.

I thought Feilhaber played great and would have rather had him in there with Edu. They were the better team in the second half.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I love football.

It is arguably the most physical contact sport that isn't a contact sport. A friend of mine who plays football often taught me to watch all the small battles on the pitch.

I'm blown away that one ref and two assistants could keep everything in check most of the time.

No offence, but that is the view that is ruining football - it is a contact sport that is becoming a non-contact sport.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think 2002 was our best effort. I thought this team had very cleaer weaknesses whereas the 02 team was solid all the way around. Not spectacular but solid. Really, 2014 has to be the moment for the US. That team really should be good.

The problem the USA may have in 2014 is that there are a number of other teams in transitional periods at the moment who could come back stronger. Even if the USA fields a much better team in 2014, the probably won't have as easy a path to the semis as they had this year.

Italy and France are unlikely to perform as poorly in 4 years, and the German team could be scary good.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

I meant we got jobbed in the Slovenia game (thought the whole country thought that, my bad) the Algeria game there was some kind of controversy on a goal, not as bad but pretty sure it was proven on tv replays it was a bad call, and I maintain that they didn't add the correct amount of time that was wasted. but to each his own. We wouldnt of scored in a minute extra (at least I doubt it) but a minute is a minute and who knows. Regardless its pretty clear I was upset directly after the game. Who doesn't get upset when you really want someone to win, your country especially and they let you down?

Aloha

also, Jay Feely on Twitter:

jayfeely: We have ghanarea!!!

Even assuming that you did get jobbed (50:50 call IMO FWIW) didn;t affect anyhting - you still won the group. Goal or no goal made literally zero differnece, other than making the Algeria game a little more tense for you all.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

You'll likely see 3 squads in the final 8

You will definitely see 3 European squads in the final 8, as the 6 European teams are playing each other.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Overgeneralization. If they saw it happen during a US win, I'll bet they keep watching. If they saw that every soccer match ended 6-5 with exciting plays throughout, they would watch.

Diving is such a little thing to pick as the reason why people don't watch soccer. With respect to the mentality of the American fan, soccer has much bigger issues than diving and time wasting.

I would disagree - for me diving and cheating is the bigget problem with football, and isn't just turning off casual fans, but long-term fans as well.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I know of several people who never watch soccer but were seriously into watching this game. Every one of them complained after the match about the diving. I think it's a fairly big factor based on that, especially since they are not planning on watching any more of the world cup.

Not saying that is THE reason but it certainly is enough to push them away again. All it takes is one thing that sticks in your mind as a negative to push you away from something that you don't normally do/watch/like. This is something that can form a lasting impression.

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

Brilliant!

I agree with all this.

[rowech]

The diving would stop if FIFA would issue cards for it AFTER the game since the officials simply won't see it all.

[PilotMan]

Ghana looked really good on the ball today. Their passing was top notch, and they had two really nice finishes. The second goal was simply great. One touch, left foot, over the keeper. We needed a strike like that today.

I was dissapointed to see both Clark and Findley starting as well. I was expecting to see Edu, and Gomez in there to start.

Dempsey tried to take the game over, and had some really nice moves throughout the game.

Our passing in general today was terrible, we were unable to put the combination together to get good looks on the goal, and turned into one trick pony's at the end with high crosses and deep balls. I know we were tired, and looking for a handball or penalty or desperately something.

I still can't believe we came out flat again, and gave up another early goal. Although I was worried about the letdown from the Algerian match.

I thought the ref was excellent today, he could have been a bit more forceful at the end of the match, but in general he stayed out of the way, and made good calls, while carding guys who deserved it.

We lost, plain and simple. We lost for the reason's that we feared when the tournament started. We had been starting slow in the last qualifiers and friendlies, we knew our defense had some huge question marks. I don't know if having Gooch at the back would have mattered honestly.

Michael Bradley is going to get a long look from some bigger clubs. I thought he played very well, and would be well suited to playing at a bigger club. He has a lot to learn, but I feel like we may finally have a rock to anchor the middle for the long term, something we were sorely missing in '06.

We achieved our goal, but we could have done so much more. It's disappointing but I am still proud for all they accomplished this year. Damn Ghana....again. sigh.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Thats INCREDIBLY harsh - he made NO mistakes that I can think of during the entire tournament and made some very competant saves, on top of that I believe he inspired his team at times when you were against the wall and definitely helped organise the defense well.

The two goals today were fantastic strikers and I didn't think he was at fault for either.

Or to put things another way I think 90% of the other nations in the competition given the choice of ANY player from the US team to add to their roster would choose him, I know England would ....

And he got clunked by Heskey in the first game to boot - who knows if that left any lingering effects?

[tarcone]

Another thing I noticed and it did take away from the game. The center field line. I kept thinking it was over and back (like basketball). Get rid of that and it is more watchable.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by rowech

The diving would stop if FIFA would issue cards for it AFTER the game since the officials simply won't see it all.

Agreed - I don't understand why the 'jumpers for goalposts' mentality has such an effect on the game at the highest level.