The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Radii

If you are voting for Trump in 2020 you are ok with White Nationalism. Full Stop.

By this logic, I should flip my vote to Trump then.

Originally Posted by Every Single Conservative Who Has Tried To Talk Me Into Voting For Trump

If you are voting for Biden in 2020 you are ok with abortion. Full Stop

I'm extremely pro-life, and I'm voting for Biden. Does that mean I'm ok with abortion? No, it doesn't. Not even remotely. It means that despite something about Biden that is absolutely and unequivocally abhorrent, evil, and indefensible, I find it worth preventing the other candidate from being elected. I've referenced it earlier, but I'll say it again: I think it's difficult, maybe impossible, for many on this board to understand that there are those that find Biden so abhorrent that despite the things they see in Trump that are absolutely and unequivocally abhorrent, evil, and indefensible, they find voting for him to be worth preventing Biden from being elected.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It's having a different persepective on the impacts is all it is. Some people think what Obama did is a lot worse, and what Trump did isn't nearly as bad, as what this board in general thinks of those things. It's not a case of fantasyland, it's a case of different priorities and what issues you consider important.

The problem I have with this is the impact of Fox News and Infowars and Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity on a frighteningly large portion of the right wing base of voters. Rush and Fox have been telling people for 2 decades that they are the only news source anyone can trust, and then they lie and fearmonger.

My neighbor is a racist piece of shit (will use the N word 5-10 times in an hour conversation, and that's the nicest thing I can say about her). She only listens to news sources that are Fox News or further right in ideology. She is TERRIFIED of what Biden will do. But what does she think Biden will do? She thinks Biden is Bernie, because that's what Fox tells her. Bernie or left of Bernie.

Our last conversation went something like this:

Her: Biden will destroy our nation. Law And Order will be GONE. The police won't even exist anymore.

Me: That's absurd. Biden is explicitly against many of the goals of many BLM protestors, including the idea of "defunding the police" - I want to defund the Police and I assure you Biden is not in favor of this. I really wish he was.


Her: Biden will destroy it all, if we don't elect trump, there will be civil war because of the things biden will do. All drugs will be legal, all our guns will be gone, no more borders, just free entry for all without any application process. Rapists will be let out of jail and there won't be police to call anymore when they rape and murder.


Me: *head explodes*


There's obviously a strong distinction in this and dialogue on this forum - but this IS the 'dialogue' with many of our family members and neighbors. I'm sure as a much more intelligent person with non-liberal values, you have your valid frustrations... but trying to figure out whether the person telling me why they don't like Ultra-Moderate-Joe-Biden is my neighbor or something more moderate... when, at least for me, well over 50% of the time it's exactly my neighbor... its just tough, man.


I'm sure you guys are frustrated too. Shit just feels doomed.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I think it's difficult, maybe impossible, for many on this board to understand that there are those that find Biden so abhorrent

I think you hit on something here, Ben.

I could understand the anti-Biden position much easier if he were Hillary, or AOC, or Bernie. I can understand finding those people personally and/or politically abhorrent.

But, to me, Biden seems so vanilla. He seems like a decent guy who holds pretty standard moderate liberal positions.

He's kind of the classic "hard guy to love; hard guy to hate" for me. About as close to "Generic moderate Democrat" as you can get. Maybe Tim Kaine and he get to the finals of that competition.

So you might have hit the nail on the head here. It is hard for me to understand hating Biden. Which makes it hard for me to intelligently respond to someone who does.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

By this logic, I should flip my vote to Trump then.

I get what you're saying, and I think you're right, I think its a fair comparison. A single issue abortion voter in theory believes so very strongly about abortion that voting for anyone pro-choice is voting for murder and they will judge people as such.



I believe so strongly that such a major part of Donald Trump's identity and agenda is tied to White Nationalism that I honestly find it impossible to separate from a vote for the man. I did not feel the same way in 2016, but his actions from 2016-2020 have done nothing but enforce and strengthen this. Equality and decent treatment of all people as human beings basically makes me a single issue voter in the same way, and its important enough to me that my own personal value system will not be able to separate this away from a vote for Donald Trump in 2020. A vote for Donald Trump in 2020 will cause me to make value judgement that mean I will never voluntarily associate with such a person.


And, of course, you're free to judge me for my judgement

[Butter]

There is no "moderate" anymore. There are 2 sides and anyone that's not on your side is a super-lefty-lib or a white supremacist.

"Owning the libs" is a legitimate policy goal. It's crazy.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I could understand the anti-Biden position much easier if he were Hillary, or AOC, or Bernie. I can understand finding those people personally and/or politically abhorrent.

But, to me, Biden seems so vanilla. He seems like a decent guy who holds pretty standard moderate liberal positions.

See my rambling reply to Brian above about my neighbor and right wing media propaganda.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

By this logic, I should flip my vote to Trump then.I'm extremely pro-life, and I'm voting for Biden. Does that mean I'm ok with abortion? No, it doesn't. Not even remotely. It means that despite something about Biden that is absolutely and unequivocally abhorrent, evil, and indefensible, I find it worth preventing the other candidate from being elected. I've referenced it earlier, but I'll say it again: I think it's difficult, maybe impossible, for many on this board to understand that there are those that find Biden so abhorrent that despite the things they see in Trump that are absolutely and unequivocally abhorrent, evil, and indefensible, they find voting for him to be worth preventing Biden from being elected.

But it's fair to say the Trump voter in 2020 knows they are voting for a white nationalist, just as it would be fair to say the Biden voter knows they are voting for a pro-choice candidate.

I don't agree with single issue voters, regardless of that single issue, but if that's what you are going to do, it's fair to then look at what you're excusing to favor that single issue. It's fair to criticize the single issue Trump voter because they are ignoring the white nationalism, corruption, threats to democracy, laziness, abhorrent personal morality, etc.

[JPhillips]

Uhhh...

Now here's an ad for you: Sen. Kelly Loeffler's new spot is all about how she's "more conservative than Attila the Hun," and includes an actor portraying a grunting Attila who delivers orders to, among other things, "eliminate the liberal scribes." pic.twitter.com/080nIJGwng

— Jacob Rubashkin (@JacobRubashkin) September 21, 2020

[JPhillips]

Florida man proposes stupid, unconstitutional laws.

Today I announced bold legislation that creates new criminal offenses and increases penalties for those who target law enforcement and participate in violent or disorderly assemblies. We will always stand with our men and women in uniform who keep our communities safe. pic.twitter.com/ITl5GmmrZJ

— Ron DeSantis (@GovRonDeSantis) September 21, 2020

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

But, to me, Biden seems so vanilla. He seems like a decent guy who holds pretty standard moderate liberal positions.

He's kind of the classic "hard guy to love; hard guy to hate" for me. About as close to "Generic moderate Democrat" as you can get. Maybe Tim Kaine and he get to the finals of that competition.

The 1980's and 1990's Joe Biden. Not the mannequin who is about to take office.

[Radii]

"driver is not liable for injury or death" - aimed squarely at Charlottesville, eh?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I could understand the anti-Biden position much easier if he were Hillary, or AOC, or Bernie. I can understand finding those people personally and/or politically abhorrent.

But, to me, Biden seems so vanilla. He seems like a decent guy who holds pretty standard moderate liberal positions.

He's kind of the classic "hard guy to love; hard guy to hate" for me. About as close to "Generic moderate Democrat" as you can get. Maybe Tim Kaine and he get to the finals of that competition.

So you might have hit the nail on the head here. It is hard for me to understand hating Biden. Which makes it hard for me to intelligently respond to someone who does.

I agree with you on Biden, but Radii nailed it...

Originally Posted by Radii

Rush and Fox have been telling people for 2 decades that they are the only news source anyone can trust, and then they lie and fearmonger.

I'm not sure it's possible to overstate the impact of this. I am in continual contact people who are otherwise decent human beings who not only don't *trust* any media to the left of Fox News, but they literally never even *hear* any news from anyone to the left of Fox News. It's an incredibly sad situation. They're scared to death of a Joe Biden administration, which, I agree, is ABSURD. But the right-wing media has been amazingly effective and shutting these people off from reality. Quite honestly, I wonder if history will look at many of them like we do folks who died at Jonestown--brainwashed. I certainly do right now. It is impossible to get through to them, because they trust nothing and no one beyond their trusted news sources. When I tried to give one friend back home some facts when I was there in July, he just looked at me with pity in his eyes and compassion in his voice and said, "Lou, you've bought into the lies of the liberal media. I'll pray for you, brother. I still love you man."



For example, every now and then, when there is an exceptionally egregious police violence incident (North Charleston come to mind immediately, and George Floyd for a while,) they express empathy to me and agreement that the police were in the wrong. But it is like CLOCKWORK--whenever they do, you can bet your BOTTOM dollar that you can head over to YouTube and find a video of Hannity or Limbaugh or Ingraham or Coulter criticizing the police. The police were wrong because Sean Hannity said so. But if Sean Hannity said they were right, then they're right.

Shit just feels doomed.

Apart from my faith, 1000% agree with you here. I see absolutely no solution that does not involve supernatural power.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

The 1980's and 1990's Joe Biden. Not the mannequin who is about to take office.

We can agree on that, only Bloomberg or Tulsi were worse Dem candidates in the primaries in my eyes. The guy won't defund the police, he'll uphold every institution that plays a part in systemic racism in America, honestly if it weren't for Trump he'd feel pretty damn far to the right of me, not that I'd ever call him a republican but it really does take Trump to help me to realize that Biden isn't the guy I'm fighting against at this point.

Oh, did you have something else in mind?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

While ignoring the post with 11 links provided as an answer to his original question.

I did not ignore the links, I scanned through them and saw many that I would not consider "racist" but fall under the "bigoted/discriminatory" category.

There has already been multiple conversations regarding ADL-racism vs what others purport as racism on this board and I think we can all agree there is no point in discussing this further ... if we cannot agree on a definition after umpteenth iterations, there really is not going to be a productive conversation.

The reason that this gets frustrating from the left's point of view is that the same 2 or 3 things are all brought up by every disingenuous "TRUMP 2020" commenter** on every forum as a response to every post about any sort of topic regarding decency in america. It's disingenuous 99.9% of the time and responding to the direct question just results in a goalpost moving "oh yeha well fuck you, trump 2020" that doesn't actually address any facts.

Vegas Vic almost certainly isn't doing that, but he did latch on to a couple of the "talking points" - on this forum with no background regarding past debates, its unfair to make that attack. But that is where the kneejerk reaction may come from, fair or not.

FWIW, my comment in "support" (actually sympathy) of VV was not re: his content or me attacking against thesloppy links (because we've gone round and round and settled on agree to disagree) but on flippant "troll" response from another and his oblivious hypocrisy.

There are people on the forum who I consider 100% disingenuous and I choose to not respond to their comments, ever. It's pointless. I've obviously waffled back and forth on the prolific poster that is Edward64, but am replying today Llikely because we are just talking about the way discussion takes place sometimes, and not the content/policy of the actual discussion itself.

Yes, in my post you quoted, I was talking about how discussions occur and how they needlessly turn into name calling and insults.

Anyway, just catching up and found the way the discourse has gone here to be worth a comment.

Appreciate the thoughtful commentary.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Florida man proposes stupid, unconstitutional laws.

Today I announced bold legislation that creates new criminal offenses and increases penalties for those who target law enforcement and participate in violent or disorderly assemblies. We will always stand with our men and women in uniform who keep our communities safe. pic.twitter.com/ITl5GmmrZJ
— Ron DeSantis (@GovRonDeSantis) September 21, 2020

Wants to make protest of any type illegal, I guess.

I have to assume there's a companion law that outlines the punishments for law enforcement officers who escalate situations or beat protesters, right?

SI

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Wants to make protest of any type illegal, I guess.


SI

Not any type

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I see absolutely no solution that does not involve supernatural power.

Kanye?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I did not ignore the links, I scanned through them and saw many that I would not consider "racist" but fall under the "bigoted/discriminatory" category.

I meant Vegas Vic (and many who are presented with replies when they seemingly ask for data they think doesn't exist - again, VV may well have just not been on the board since then, or one of a number of things, but this is what I'm used to seeing elsewhere).

But anyway, I wasn't referring to you at all, I worded that poorly, sorry!

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Apart from my faith, 1000% agree with you here. I see absolutely no solution that does not involve supernatural power.

Yep, I'm an atheist, I wish I wasn't as it might give me some solace in all this. *gulp*

Seriously, I can't look at any of this too long without just feeling sick to my stomach, grateful that I don't have any kids to leave all of this with, and fearful that we're accelerating all of my worst nightmares well into my own lifetime. I honestly don't know how to deal with that. But I usually keep it to myself to avoid sound like the left side of Jon here I'm also not violent, but I do find myself making jokes about how my straight white ass will certainly die during the revolution and that's probably a good thing. :P I promise they're jokes though!!!

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and to be clear, yes, I completely acknowledge that there are loads, perhaps a majority, of Trump voters who are more like Radii’s neighbor. However, because of the circles in which I have run for the last 33 years or so, I am in contact with a whole lot who aren’t like that at all. Some of them are the nose holder types, (got a random unsolicited text just a few days ago from one, lamenting that he has no other choice but to vote for Trump,) but many of them have been made to honestly and sincerely believe that Donald Trump is the only person who can protect them from societal collapse.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

The 1980's and 1990's Joe Biden. Not the mannequin who is about to take office.

lol

Biden's currently pushing Dem senators to commit to not expanding the courts even if the GOP confirms a nominee. He's a really shitty radical, I guess.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Radii

If you are voting for Trump in 2020 you are ok with White Nationalism. Full Stop. Maybe the way you (collective you, not "you" Vegas Vic) are ok with White Nationalism is to delude yourself that this somehow isn't true, but Trump and the people he caters to are so openly white nationalist, that voting for trump for your own financial interests absolutely means that you are accepting that you're okay with anything that happens to brown people (and women - looking at you supreme court - and trans and LGBT people) in order for you to make an extra few percent on the market.

Maybe I'm saying exactly what you're accusing those on this board of. I'm not suggesting every trump voter belongs in the KKK, but I don't think there's even a shred of doubt in anyone's mind exactly what Trump wants to do regarding race in America and anyone voting for their own wallet is so ungodly selfish that ... man, I just don't know. I don't care what label we put on someone still voting trump in 2020, but "decent human being" is one that we have to remove.

100% agreement here.

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

By this logic, I should flip my vote to Trump then.I'm extremely pro-life, and I'm voting for Biden. Does that mean I'm ok with abortion? No, it doesn't. Not even remotely. It means that despite something about Biden that is absolutely and unequivocally abhorrent, evil, and indefensible, I find it worth preventing the other candidate from being elected. I've referenced it earlier, but I'll say it again: I think it's difficult, maybe impossible, for many on this board to understand that there are those that find Biden so abhorrent that despite the things they see in Trump that are absolutely and unequivocally abhorrent, evil, and indefensible, they find voting for him to be worth preventing Biden from being elected.

As pointed out, Radii and other saying you are ok with White Nationalism doesn't mean you are an advocate for it, you are just ok with it for other gains.

I say that because what you say other conservatives are telling you is indeed true. You are ok with more liberal policies on abortion (I mean this is Joe Biden we are talking about - he of the personally opposed to abortion but doesn't believe his personal religious view should be mandated by the government) because of other things. Doesn't mean you are full in support of it, but you are ok with it.

It is entirely up to you how much you are... well, ok with it. And you may have to tell those conservative friends that you are more ok with abortion than white nationalism (or what have you).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

lol

Biden's currently pushing Dem senators to commit to not expanding the courts even if the GOP confirms a nominee. He's a really shitty radical, I guess.

You know how many leftist friends on Facebook I see who are making appeals which are basically: "I know that Joe Biden is basically a Republican, but we have to get rid of Trump. So this time only, vote for the Republican".

People on the far left (who think Bernie is center-left) literally believe Biden should be in the Republican Party. Biden being some sort of cipher for the far left is incredibly laughable.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Radii

If you are voting for Trump in 2020 you are ok with White Nationalism. Full Stop. Maybe the way you (collective you, not "you" Vegas Vic) are ok with White Nationalism is to delude yourself that this somehow isn't true, but Trump and the people he caters to are so openly white nationalist, that voting for trump for your own financial interests absolutely means that you are accepting that you're okay with anything that happens to brown people (and women - looking at you supreme court - and trans and LGBT people) in order for you to make an extra few percent on the market. .

I wish it was this simple, but it really isn't. One of my very close friends is an ultra conservative Hispanic, who is absolutely not okay with white nationalism, but will vote for Trump strictly for the other pieces of the conservative agenda that he believes in. And this is an intelligent, self made man, who came from a rough area and succeeded through sheer hard work and determination. He is one of the kindest souls you will meet, salt of the earth guy and I look at him almost like a brother. He is religious and generally very open minded, even over our differences. I really think he just looks at Trump as the figurehead of the party, while sincerely believing that most of the republican leadership is not on board with the white nationalist agenda and he just has to ride out the Trump presidency to get to a more reasonable candidate down the road, because the alternative will just never mesh with his beliefs.

The other example, more of an acquaintance, who often annoys the heel out of me is a gay male, who is 100% on board with Trump and quite frankly, based on his reply to one of my rare political rants on FB regarding black athletes being villainized. I tend to think he is completely okay with the white nationalist agenda, which blows my mind, because those that embrace this have no room in their America for the LGBQT community either. With him I think it is definitely a case of supporting a message as well as his conservative beliefs. He chooses to remain willfully ignorant to and/or accept all the bigotry and bias for his own agenda, despite the fact that he is not part of theirs.

The second example makes me shake my head much more than the first, but just like on this board, some people will never compromise their core beliefs (left or right) even when they are a harbinger of potential greater harm to this country down the road.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In 2020, people are arguing if Trump is a racist?! And others are saying well Trump may be a racist but his policies aren't - what do they think his motivations are for those policies?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I was going to post this on FB and opted not to.

Race is a very difficult subject and has a ton of different layers.

My first job was at a small pump manufacturer in the south. I started building pumps, and then wound up becoming a salesman over the next few years.

The shop manager was a good guy, but according to most definitions racist. Not that he treated minorities bad, but the N-word came out regularly during conversations.

HOWEVER, this same guy took every minority that came in through his shop and spent hours training and making them better machinists. When the company was bought and eventually shuttered, he made sure each of the machinists landed on their feet with, in most cases, a better job.

In this case, his speech was clearly racist, but was he actually a racist? What is more important, actions or words?

We had a secretary that would push back on this guy, and she had tons of shock and outrage at his language, but she did nothing but have shock and outrage. She never talked to the guys in the shop. She had as little to do with them as possible. The shop supervisor would have lunch with them on occasion and would buy them lunch if anyone was short or needed cash.

A few years later, I ran into one of the former machinists who had lost the initial job the manager got for him. He was again working for the manager and was very pleased with all the manager had done for him and his family.

The reason I bring this up, you can have someone who is a racist based upon language and rhetoric, but yet they still do well by minorities. Trump is supposedly limiting immigration, was that the reason why wages for African Americans and Latinos increased on his watch?

So for people like myself, the question is what do you do? The guy is disgusting, and definitely not someone that I would want to meet or have a beer with. But, from an economic standpoint, you have many people that appreciate his efforts. Supposedly, you have more minorities considering voting for him that previous Republicans. Why? If they are better off than they were 4 years ago, despite his rhetoric, why should they not look to vote for him.

Reasons I do not want to vote for Biden:

1) Age (which is an issue for Trump as well): I am much more comfortable with Pence if he has to take over than I am Harris.
2) VP candidate: I am not a huge fan of Harris. I look at the process nominating her as checking boxes of minorities to try and get turnout. Nominate Biden, put who we REALLY want as the VP. Let Biden get the nod, then force him out and let the VP step up.
3) Platform: The Democrat platform is against much of my core belief system. Not that the Republicans are perfect, but they are much closer to my belief system than Democrats are.
4) Wages: From 1999 to 2008, my wages doubled. I was completely stagnant from 2009 to 2016, maybe even too a step back. From 2016 to now, I have increased wages by 50%. Next year, I expect to be able to say it is 250% (sales, so projects and commissions play a role. Industrial activity increased sharply after Trump was elected.).

All that said, I am more than likely to vote Libertarian this time around. Need to read up on Jorgensen, but provided she is not the old school libertarian candidate, she will more than likely get my vote.

[Vegas Vic]

I think one of the biggest myths about Trump is that he is a conservative, which is utterly false. Ronald Reagan was a conservative; Trump is a big spending nationalist.

There are several mistakes Trump has made with fiscal policy in the opinion of conservatives. Suspending the federal debt ceiling was a big mistake. Scrapping the Trans-Pacific Partnership was a mistake, and is in line with his protectionist trade strategy, which conservatives think is bad for the country.

He has not gone far enough with tax cuts. Conservatives don't just want the corporate tax rate cut, they want to eliminate it altogether. As a Libertarian, I actually agree with this.

With that being said, there's no question that the Trump administration is much closer to the conservatives' fiscal view than a Biden/Harris administration would be, especially if they get a blank check controlling the White House, the Senate and the House of Representatives.

Does that make them racist for voting for Trump?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Trump is supposedly limiting immigration, was that the reason why wages for African Americans and Latinos increased on his watch?

Highly doubtful. During economic expansions, especially longer economic expansions, minority wage gaps narrow (mostly because employers are more willing to consider applicants they may have passed over). And this era of economic expansion went from 2010 to 2019. Interesting rural areas, such as the ones that Trump won in 2016 experienced some of the lowest wage increases - and you would expect that those locations would be most affected by immigration (agriculture especially).

Anyways, Trump definitely isn't the guy who uses the N-word but helps 'his guys' (one wonders what he thinks of policies to help all black people - and whether he thinks his black people are the 'good ones'). A lot of his policies are in place to dismantle programs to help black and brown people. Dismantling tools used by agencies designed to support minorities and women, such as the EEOC. Getting rid of federal contracting rules to benefit minorities, etc.

And there does not seem to be a rise in Hispanic and Black supporters of Trump from 2016 (quarter to third of Hispanics and 10% of blacks):

A Big Chunk Of People Of Color And White People With Degrees Are Behind Trump | FiveThirtyEight

I will note that Hispanic support for George W. Bush was over 40%.

[Bee]

At this point, I think we can safely say Republicans being fiscally conservative is also a myth. They are only fiscally conservative if a Democrat is president.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I think one of the biggest myths about Trump is that he is a conservative, which is utterly false. Ronald Reagan was a conservative; Trump is a big spending nationalist.

Reagan was a big spending free trader. Trump's white nationalism isn't all that different than Nixon's or Pat Buchanan's, who were definitely considered conservatives.

[Bee]

Voting for Trump doesn't make someone a racist or white nationalist. It just means being a racist and white nationalist isn't a disqualifier for them.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Butter

If a group makes policy against a specific group or groups consistently, you should believe what they're telling you with the policy in the absence of explicit statements.

Agreed, but the policies under discussion are simply *not* unambiguously policies against specific racial groups, as I've already discussed examples of. I think the crux of the issue here is an unwillingness or inability to consider the possibility that people might think about these issues in more than one way.

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm sure as a much more intelligent person with non-liberal values, you have your valid frustrations... but trying to figure out whether the person telling me why they don't like Ultra-Moderate-Joe-Biden is my neighbor or something more moderate... when, at least for me, well over 50% of the time it's exactly my neighbor... its just tough, man.

I'm sure you guys are frustrated too. Shit just feels doomed.

If I wanted to I could quote three regular posters on this forum who have said things in the past month equally ridiculous in my mind to what you describe here. Nobody so much as objected, though I don't know how many didn't for the same reason I didn't - waste of time and all that. I respect the way you interact here but there are times when I would put your statements in that category as well. Things you see as self-evident I see as blatant propaganda, so ...

It sounds to me like you're trying to see things fairly here but also having an emotional response to illogic on the part of people you know.

As someone who is generally economically liberal but not on other issues, I get to see the kind of arguments you are talking about from both sides. I view it as a consequence of the post-truth society we've been heading pell-mell towards for at least 25 years and building the foundation for far longer than that. While we probably disagree on 80% or more of political issues, I'm not any more optimistic than you are here. The only hope for turning it around rests with 'we the people', and a cultural sea change would have to occur for there to be any realistic hope of that. We have to get much better at listening to each other, and right now we just aren't interested in doing that.

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

So you might have hit the nail on the head here. It is hard for me to understand hating Biden. Which makes it hard for me to intelligently respond to someone who does.

I don't think it's so much about hating Biden as it is hating Democrats/liberalism/that whole ideological ball of wax. I.e., anybody who isn't right of center would be viewed the same way.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I.e., anybody who isn't right of center would be viewed the same way.

QFT. At this point, I suspect that most of the right thinks that Biden, Bernie, Warren, Harris, AOC, and Antifa are all pretty much on the same page.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Does that make them racist for voting for Trump?

I'll boil my explanation from above down a bit more since I guess it wasn't clear.

If issues of race is so low on your priority list that you can vote for Donald Trump, I'm not necessarily interested in labeling you racist or anything else, but your system of values differs so far from mine that I don't want to speak with you, ever, if I don't have to.

I get that there is more nuance here - for someone I've known for a long time, this is a more complicated individual conversation, absolutely. But on a generic voter base scale, yeah, this is easy for me.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And you may have to tell those conservative friends that you are more ok with abortion than white nationalism (or what have you).

Do you pull the lever to save the Black person or the fetus from the trolley?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Radii

I meant Vegas Vic (and many who are presented with replies when they seemingly ask for data they think doesn't exist - again, VV may well have just not been on the board since then, or one of a number of things, but this is what I'm used to seeing elsewhere).

Nope, you're right. Explicitly asked for evidence and then ignored it entirely once given.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Radii

If issues of race is so low on your priority list that you can vote for Donald Trump, I'm not necessarily interested in labeling you racist or anything else, but your system of values differs so far from mine that I don't want to speak with you, ever, if I don't have to.

Just to be clear, I'm not voting for Trump, nor did I vote for him in 2016.

If I understand you correctly, if someone doesn't have racial issues at the top of their priority list and votes for Trump because they agree with him on a dozen other issues, you don't want ever to speak to them?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

QFT. At this point, I suspect that most of the right thinks that Biden, Bernie, Warren, Harris, AOC, and Antifa are all pretty much on the same page.

The election is:

I'm afraid Trump will do what he says he'll do

vs.

I'm afraid Biden will do what he's said he won't do and what even the most left in his party haven't proposed.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

If I wanted to I could quote three regular posters on this forum who have said things in the past month equally ridiculous in my mind to what you describe here. Nobody so much as objected, though I don't know how many didn't for the same reason I didn't - waste of time and all that. I respect the way you interact here but there are times when I would put your statements in that category as well. Things you see as self-evident I see as blatant propaganda, so ...

It sounds to me like you're trying to see things fairly here but also having an emotional response to illogic on the part of people you know.

All fair. The most upset I've ever see you was at a statement of mine that I thought was perfectly boring and uncontroversial. I suspect that would happen a lot more if we spent more time discussing the details of my views on race issues.

I'm probably one of the most left leaning members of this forum, so someone on the center or center right on... well pretty much any issue... probably thinks I'm a bit of a nutjob from time to time. I think it became apparent in the Democratic primary thread that a lot of moderate Dems who are thrilled Biden is the nominee may feel the same. I'm okay with that too.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

2) VP candidate: I am not a huge fan of Harris. I look at the process nominating her as checking boxes of minorities to try and get turnout. Nominate Biden, put who we REALLY want as the VP. Let Biden get the nod, then force him out and let the VP step up.

This is nuts. It's nuts like Trump and Pence are secretly lovers nuts. I don't care if you don't like Harris, but there is no secret plan to replace Biden, and even if there were, how would it happen?

edit: And the idea that Harris is a leftist dream candidate isn't close to true. A lot of the left dislikes her as much as they dislike Biden.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

lol

Biden's currently pushing Dem senators to commit to not expanding the courts even if the GOP confirms a nominee. He's a really shitty radical, I guess.

My wife mentioned that if Biden was coming out and saying yes I will pack the court with 6 new Dem SC judges in January it would be a huge help to the R's in the election to get the vote out for them and even more than they already motivated. I have no doubt if he gets elected and McConnel rams through a justice in lame duck or before the election Biden will have no choice but to add justices.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Galaril

My wife mentioned that if Biden was coming out and saying yes I will pack the court with 6 new Dem SC judges in January it would be a huge help to the R's in the election to get the vote out for them and even more than they already motivated. I have no doubt if he gets elected and McConnel rams through a justice in lame duck or before the election Biden will have no choice but to add justices.

I think you underestimate Dems ability to say bygones and move on.

I could live with Biden saying nothing, but I think there's a real risk of dampening turnout if the Dems message is a clear, there's nothing we can do.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaril

My wife mentioned that if Biden was coming out and saying yes I will pack the court with 6 new Dem SC judges in January it would be a huge help to the R's in the election to get the vote out for them and even more than they already motivated. I have no doubt if he gets elected and McConnel rams through a justice in lame duck or before the election Biden will have no choice but to add justices.

You do realize this is Joe Biden we are talking about? I know that liberals and leftists are hoping that the Dems will rally to take this on, but I'm about 50-50 they'll vote to abolish the filibuster. Maybe 10-25% they'll add a SCOTUS slot.

Now they can rally support on what McConnell is about to do and pledge that the only way to save healthcare for all and other rights is to vote heavy for Democrats and they will do these things legislatively (I mean if the ACA gets struck down, one can easily lower Medicaid - which is already Constitutional - eligibility age to 0).

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think you underestimate Dems ability to say bygones and move on.

I could live with Biden saying nothing, but I think there's a real risk of dampening turnout if the Dems message is a clear, there's nothing we can do.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You do realize this is Joe Biden we are talking about? I know that liberals and leftists are hoping that the Dems will rally to take this on, but I'm about 50-50 they'll vote to abolish the filibuster. Maybe 10-25% they'll add a SCOTUS slot.

Now they can rally support on what McConnell is about to do and pledge that the only way to save healthcare for all and other rights is to vote heavy for Democrats and they will do these things legislatively (I mean if the ACA gets struck down, one can easily lower Medicaid - which is already Constitutional - eligibility age to 0).

Well in that case we are fucked because the R's abso- fucking- lutely ramming a justice through in October.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Well in that case we are fucked because the R's abso- fucking- lutely ramming a justice through in October.

Oh yeah. Definitely. But it would be quite interesting if the GOP fuckery leads the Democrats to push for more progressive policies using things that a SCOTUS can't screw around with too much (like a Medicare with no lower age limit with massive subsidies for those under the poverty line).

Some things won't be able to be saved though - abortion rights are likely completely screwed. But LGBTQ rights seem to have Roberts and Gorsuch on board.

The other hope (very distant perhaps) is that Trump gets smashed and people want to jump off that boat as quickly as possible and you get 4 GOP Senators (or rather 3 + Kelly in AZ) to vote no on Trump's nominee in order to distance as much as possible.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Just to be clear, I'm not voting for Trump, nor did I vote for him in 2016.

If I understand you correctly, if someone doesn't have racial issues at the top of their priority list and votes for Trump because they agree with him on a dozen other issues, you don't want ever to speak to them?

Generically speaking, yes. I think most people would consider this an insult, but I'm serious about Ben's comparison to a single issue voter on abortion being apt for me. And again, I fully own this. Judge away.



Issues regarding equality in america are at the top of my list of voting priorities. I believe that even before the 2016 election we were nowhere near equality, so the things we've seen in the last four years are absolutely abhorrent to me. One of the few things Donald Trump actually believes in and has consistent views on is pushing our nation in the opposite direction regarding equality (mostly around race, but LGBT and many other areas, but I'm trying not to complicate this since race is more than enough here IMO).

So... if someone voted for Trump in 2016, witnessed the last 4 years, and still finds any way to justify voting for Trump again in 2020, then yes, I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can give me a reason that you are able to accept aligning your vote with this level of intolerance, knowing that a level of intolerance and hate is actually being perpetrated on actual human beings, and somehow still align with my value system enough that I could accept being around you. This includes family, I am from the south and have a long line of openly racist uncles, aunts, cousins and 2 of my 4 grandparents. The ones that are still alive I have already removed from my life entirely and will never speak to them again. But most of them were openly shitty going back to my teen years, I just didn't realize back then that it was okay to eject shitty human beings from your orbit, even if they share some DNA.


And again, I don't consider this controversial. I want to surround myself with friends and even acquaintances who inspire me as much as I possibly can. I'm very active and involved in making these choices in a few different social sphere's on a regular basis, and in taking stock of the people I give my time to. I've got limited time and limited emotional bandwidth for dealing with people. So I'm going to make a very active effort to surround myself with people who are actively working to move the world in the same direction that I am.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This is nuts. It's nuts like Trump and Pence are secretly lovers nuts. I don't care if you don't like Harris, but there is no secret plan to replace Biden, and even if there were, how would it happen?

edit: And the idea that Harris is a leftist dream candidate isn't close to true. A lot of the left dislikes her as much as they dislike Biden.

Correct. I like Harris a fair bit more than Biden, but she is once again far, far away from what I am looking for in a candidate. VERY much a hold your nose vote - but one that I make without even thinking about it if it was Harris as the candidate and Biden as the VP.

[Ben E Lou]

Am I the only one who thinks that we're looking at attempts at full-blown armed uprisings if the Dems pack the court? What percent of people who don't pay close attention to politics even know that's legal? 25??? And I'd assume the Fox-OANN crowd would be lower.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

but will vote for Trump strictly for the other pieces of the conservative agenda that he believes in.

What are these pieces of agenda? I keep seeing this argument made that they hold their nose over the racist stuff because they believe in his other policies. But he really doesn't stand for anything.

He has no health care plan whatsoever which is particularly bad during a pandemic. His trade war has been terrible and required us to eat up massive debt to keep industries afloat. There doesn't seem to be any sort of platform he is running on besides watching a fuckton of cable news and tweeting about it.

Like I get it if you're a billionaire and he just cut your taxes a ton and has his Treasury Secretary floating trillions for corporate ETFs and junk bonds to keep your stock going up. But what possible benefit has the average person seen that could make them overlook the hardcore racist platform he runs on?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

If I understand you correctly, if someone doesn't have racial issues at the top of their priority list and votes for Trump because they agree with him on a dozen other issues, you don't want ever to speak to them?

What are these dozen other issues? His campaigns have almost exclusively been about race.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Am I the only one who thinks that we're looking at attempts at full-blown armed uprisings if the Dems pack the court? What percent of people who don't pay close attention to politics even know that's legal? 25??? And I'd assume the Fox-OANN crowd would be lower.

This is where I just completely lose the ability to guess about anything. Certainly a large portion of Trump's base that is all-in on 2A talks like they would love nothing more than to have a reason to go shoot a bunch of liberals, but I guess I'm not yet cynical enough to believe this. I'm a bit worried, but a part of me thinks that the Fox-OANN crowd is honestly stretched to their limits already. If Biden simply being elected doesn't generate an armed conflict, does that propaganda wing have the ability to take it to another level? Since we're not operating on facts in any way at all here, does it even matter what actually happens in the real world?