Werewolf XXXIV: Tombstone (GAME OVER - Night 13) - Page 58

hoopsguy · 10-24-2006, 05:23 PM

At the time you died Spleen was a villager - he wasn't converted for another few days.

We had a ton of discussion about the kill the night we took you out, Fouts. I pushed pretty hard for having me go after Bulletsponge that night for the kill. He was the only guy who could take me in a showdown, we were sure of his role at that point, and none of us wanted to be in a position where he randomly shot one of us (he had threatened BK for the first two days of the game).

I would have shown up Tired if I was the killer, but we didn't really care that much. I would have taken heat all day long, then shot the Sheriff right before the deadline. No sheriff = no one in jail. So I would have been around for another day as well before getting put in the slammer. And I was hoping that someone else would challenge me in a showdown, although it turns out the only people who could have challenged would have been dead at that point.

As it was, we went in a different direction and sent Cronin after you. Hard to argue with the results of the overall game - Cowboy win - but I do think we made the wrong play that day. And I made the wrong play the following day not going commando on my teammates and killing Sheriff Chubby at the end of the day to keep him from jailing me.

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:30 PM

I am surprised you let them do it after my ... JAIL HOOPS NOW! post. Villagers should have nailed you to the cross after my death.

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:33 PM

And FWIW, you won because Lathum outed BK. That move made up for some other mistakes.

I thougth the vices would have more of an impact. I thought that, in order to convert, the cowboys would have to hit the right vice. It appears the vices were more for flavor though.

Barkeep49 · 10-24-2006, 05:33 PM

It's funny -- I came up with the everybody reveal BEFORE the game started and when I anticipated being a villager. I think that while it did ultimately cost sndvls and saldana their lives, could have been used as a BS detector making it hard for cowboys to do fake reveals.

As for Fouts, we certainly could have picked a better target that night, no doubt about it. But we killed Fouts based on what he was saying, I believe, rather than role. If there was a better target that night I do not believe it was bulletsponge.

st.cronin · 10-24-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

As it was, we went in a different direction and sent Cronin after you. Hard to argue with the results of the overall game - Cowboy win - but I do think we made the wrong play that day.

Given what I knew at the time, I thought it was a solid play. I was worried about Chubby, though - I was pretty sure I knew his role.

Barkeep49 · 10-24-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fouts

And FWIW, you won because Lathum outed BK. That move made up for some other mistakes.

I thougth the vices would have more of an impact. I thought that, in order to convert, the cowboys would have to hit the right vice. It appears the vices were more for flavor though.

Not sure if this entirely true. For instance Chubby and you scared us because you had no vice. Both were mentioned as people who we'd liked to have converted at one point or another (though in fairness I think just about every player was mentioned at one point or another) but your lack of vice did scare us as we figure it meant you weren't bribable. Not sure if these things matched up or not.

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Not sure if this entirely true. For instance Chubby and you scared us because you had no vice. Both were mentioned as people who we'd liked to have converted at one point or another (though in fairness I think just about every player was mentioned at one point or another) but your lack of vice did scare us as we figure it meant you weren't bribable. Not sure if these things matched up or not.

How did you know I had no vices? I never mentioned that.

saldana · 10-24-2006, 05:37 PM

alan, what would have happened if i had succumbed to chief rum's womanly wiles the night he approached me...i never really understood what the consequences might have been

Barkeep49 · 10-24-2006, 05:37 PM

I will say that having the execution system that we had in this game, it was easier for Cowboys to block their votes simply because on any given day there were less choices about who to vote for and so voting together didn't necessarily rouse suspicion. The only time we faced pressure about votes was when we needed to lynch GE and I beat hoops to the unvote once there was the role reveal and people wondered why hoops didn't unvote. Obviously we needed GE dead. That said, it felt like there was a lot less voting analysis in this game than in most.

Barkeep49 · 10-24-2006, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fouts

How did you know I had no vices? I never mentioned that.

I scanned you Night 1. I was told you had no discernable vices.

st.cronin · 10-24-2006, 05:39 PM

By the way, saldana and some others were highly suspicious of me BEFORE I was converted. I was not playing an eccentric game, either - I was playing as straight as possible.

That's two straight games where I was a villager and a significant number of people were convinced I was suspicious.

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I scanned you Night 1. I was told you had no discernable vices.

Ouch. And the rich get richer. Very tough playing this game blindfolded.

You have no idea whats going on, throw out theories, get slapped for speaking up, and die knowing the bad guys will get all the glory.

Thanks for hosting Alan.

Barkeep49 · 10-24-2006, 05:43 PM

Fouts -- I'm not sure it was as unbalanced as you think. It always felt like we were one decision away from disaster. As was pointed out we were scared terribely about Lathum having been spotted trying to bribe anxiety. This could have easily turned into Lathum being spotted Day 1. We had no idea what kind of seer or bodyguard was out there which made our game cautious as well. I think the fact that both sides think they were so close to disaster suggests it might have been well balanced.

Alan T · 10-24-2006, 05:43 PM

Answering a few posts at once..

If you tried to bribe fouts, he would have turned you down regardless of how much money you offered. He was immune to money bribes. Lathum would have been found out offering money to Fouts and then the villagers would have been left knowing Lathum was looking to hire Fouts for some work and they could determine from there whether or not it was an evil act (conversion) or some villager act.

Vices did play some part in stumping Chief on some targets he wanted, it played less a part in the cowboys bribes mainly because they just got lucky in who they picked. There were plenty of opportunities for them to get busted on a bribe offer out there.

saldana: If Chief had been successful on that roll I think he was looking to get information from you. He would have found out your role was the banker, you had no special night or day actions and what your vices were. He had two other things he could do, he could try to seduce away an item (he was successful with Bullet's gun, and if he had used that on you, he could have stolen your money ; ie: steal your money then when the cowboys killed you no extra money for them, but if they killed Chief they got the extra money instead). His third option is to seduce you into an action. he could have forced you the next day to vote a certain way, or force a night or day action from you (ie: could have forced you to jail someone or release someone from jail). He had to choose which he wanted to try each time, and they had seperate positive and downsides to them however. For you he chose to try to get information from you but failed the roll.

st.cronin · 10-24-2006, 05:46 PM

Agree with Barkeep, I can't believe the cowboys won. There was some absolutely incredible play on both sides.

Alan T · 10-24-2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Fouts -- I'm not sure it was as unbalanced as you think. It always felt like we were one decision away from disaster. As was pointed out we were scared terribely about Lathum having been spotted trying to bribe anxiety. This could have easily turned into Lathum being spotted Day 1. We had no idea what kind of seer or bodyguard was out there which made our game cautious as well. I think the fact that both sides think they were so close to disaster suggests it might have been well balanced.

heh, from the PMs I received, I had a feeling the last 5 days both sides figured they were about to lose the game every day. I think there are things that I can improve before next time I do this game though, but it was kind of fun watching people so unsure of their team's status. The day the cowboys won, Lathum sent a PM almost admitting it was impossible for the cowboys to win.

One thing I liked about this game is I think you all (both the villagers and the cowboys) only scratched the surface on what clues were out there. Perhaps only 60% of the game was even fully recognized. There was alot happening every night, and many possible paths of investigation for people to pursue.

The biggest differences in this game were:

1) THe bodyguard getting lynched early
2) The sheriff locking up the seer with the brutal wolf.
3) Lathum avoiding disaster on 3 different days (day 1, day 3 and the day he revealed).

I think if those things went different, the village would have won a few days ago.

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

Answering a few posts at once..

If you tried to bribe fouts, he would have turned you down regardless of how much money you offered. He was immune to money bribes. Lathum would have been found out offering money to Fouts and then the villagers would have been left knowing Lathum was looking to hire Fouts for some work and they could determine from there whether or not it was an evil act (conversion) or some villager act.

Vices did play some part in stumping Chief on some targets he wanted, it played less a part in the cowboys bribes mainly because they just got lucky in who they picked. There were plenty of opportunities for them to get busted on a bribe offer out there.

saldana: If Chief had been successful on that roll I think he was looking to get information from you. He would have found out your role was the banker, you had no special night or day actions and what your vices were. He had two other things he could do, he could try to seduce away an item (he was successful with Bullet's gun, and if he had used that on you, he could have stolen your money ; ie: steal your money then when the cowboys killed you no extra money for them, but if they killed Chief they got the extra money instead). His third option is to seduce you into an action. he could have forced you the next day to vote a certain way, or force a night or day action from you (ie: could have forced you to jail someone or release someone from jail). He had to choose which he wanted to try each time, and they had seperate positive and downsides to them however. For you he chose to try to get information from you but failed the roll.

Thanks for this post. I suppose vices did have a chance of making an impact, and Chief's role looks like it could have been pretty powerful.

Did Lathum know the consequences for trying to bribe the unbribable?

How did Chubby happen to see Cronin kill me?

Were there any brothers in this game?

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:51 PM

And if there were brothers, how do you use random.org to figure out who they are?

Alan T · 10-24-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fouts

Thanks for this post. I suppose vices did have a chance of making an impact, and Chief's role looks like it could have been pretty powerful.

Did Lathum know the consequences for trying to bribe the unbribable?

How did Chubby happen to see Cronin kill me?

Were there any brothers in this game?

Yes, Lathum was informed in his initial PM that any failed Bribe would result in the target knowing that he tried to bribe them. THe wording was more severe than the end result would have been to install a sense of fear where they wouldn't just go out and try to convert people willy-nilly and blow up their team getting spotted. Regardless any bribe failed would have told the bribe-ee that they were offered money by Lathum.

Chubby chose to follow you the night you died, he wanted to see what you were up to that evening. He happened to be sitting out on a bench and watched your entire death scene from the front row.

Nope, no brothers in this game.

Fouts · 10-24-2006, 05:54 PM

Thanks Alan. I actually enjoy the couple of days I got to play. Even if I was clueless.

Alan T · 10-24-2006, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fouts

And if there were brothers, how do you use random.org to figure out who they are?

The brothers roles as designed would have been implemented if we had a handful more people. One would have had the showdown ability instead of Goldeneagle (he would have just been the retired sheriff with certain jail abilities), and the other brother would have been the young lover. They had two unique roles (Young lover and Trusted Brother) and both would have been villagers. Neither would have had night actions but both would have had open PMs with each other the entire time.

Determining who were the brothers would have just been decided by random.org the same as other roles. Whoever ended up the Young lover and Trusted Brother would have been the brothers.

hoopsguy · 10-24-2006, 06:02 PM

We did not know what would happen if we tried to bribe someone with no vices, but we pretty much decided that wasn't a direction we wanted to go.

So naturally the first two people we have Barkeep look at - Fouts and Chubby - have no vices. And we are trying to avoid appearing tired, so that took us through Day 4. Starting off with three cowboys, and being deathly afraid of early seer scans, we went on the offensive with the bribes even though we had incomplete information. Anxiety Night 1 has been documented. Cronin on Night 3 (I think), we had no information on his vices. And Spleen - no knowledge of vices.

When I came out with the Brothers reveal I was hoping that people had been forthcoming with their reveals on roles and not held that piece of information back. If they had, I was a dead man but what did I have to lose being in jail with basically everyone in the village suspecting me already?

Barkeep did a good job of conveying our paranoia. We started off with only three players, it seemed like 1/2 the village could move around at night and thus put us on locations while we acted at night, and we were sure that one of us was going to be popped by the seer by the end of Night 2 at the latest. We really felt like the game was stacked against us - that was pretty pervasive in our conversation for the time that I was around.

Alan T · 10-24-2006, 06:03 PM

Some other random game information. The number of jail cells was equal to the number of cowboys to start the game. Not sure if anyone ever figured that dynamic out during the game. The number of cells would have scaled upwards or downwards with the number of cowboys depending on the size of the game.

The next cowboy/cell to be added would have been in 2 more players (at #23) . The next villager to be added would have been the Tailor (generic villager role) and the next cowboy to be added would have been the pickpocket (pretty limited cowboy role.) The Tailor would have jumped into the pool of possible morticians if Spleen had died.

hoopsguy · 10-24-2006, 06:07 PM

Alan, I know that I mentioned this to you in our post-game PMs. I would have liked for the list of roles on the first page to not be all-inclusive - to have some of the assigned roles not be listed on there. I felt very restricted as I tried to come up with a BS fake role reveal when every other person had a role on the list. If all the roles are supposed to be listed, then I don't see any reason to include a "may or may not" statement about the roles - just say that they are all listed, along with a couple of additional roles that are not in the game.

Alan T · 10-24-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Alan, I know that I mentioned this to you in our post-game PMs. I would have liked for the list of roles on the first page to not be all-inclusive - to have some of the assigned roles not be listed on there. I felt very restricted as I tried to come up with a BS fake role reveal when every other person had a role on the list. If all the roles are supposed to be listed, then I don't see any reason to include a "may or may not" statement about the roles - just say that they are all listed, along with a couple of additional roles that are not in the game.

Yeah, random.org hated me during role assignments. Most of the vanilla villager roles that wern't listed ended up not getting used. Only a couple that were up there ended up not getting used. I think the big mistake i made here was the important roles that were sure to be in the game were mostly all up there.

spleen1015 · 10-24-2006, 08:14 PM

Alan, with you explaining all of the mechanics of the game, I am even more impressed by this game and your effort. This was my third game after the Lost game and the beginner game, so those are what I have to judge by.

All of WW regulars have done a really awesome job adapting this game into something that continues to be entertaining. Good job to everyone!

10-24-2006, 05:39 PM	#2861
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	By the way, saldana and some others were highly suspicious of me BEFORE I was converted. I was not playing an eccentric game, either - I was playing as straight as possible. That's two straight games where I was a villager and a significant number of people were convinced I was suspicious. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

10-24-2006, 05:46 PM	#2865
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Agree with Barkeep, I can't believe the cowboys won. There was some absolutely incredible play on both sides. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

10-24-2006, 05:23 PM	#2851
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	At the time you died Spleen was a villager - he wasn't converted for another few days. We had a ton of discussion about the kill the night we took you out, Fouts. I pushed pretty hard for having me go after Bulletsponge that night for the kill. He was the only guy who could take me in a showdown, we were sure of his role at that point, and none of us wanted to be in a position where he randomly shot one of us (he had threatened BK for the first two days of the game). I would have shown up Tired if I was the killer, but we didn't really care that much. I would have taken heat all day long, then shot the Sheriff right before the deadline. No sheriff = no one in jail. So I would have been around for another day as well before getting put in the slammer. And I was hoping that someone else would challenge me in a showdown, although it turns out the only people who could have challenged would have been dead at that point. As it was, we went in a different direction and sent Cronin after you. Hard to argue with the results of the overall game - Cowboy win - but I do think we made the wrong play that day. And I made the wrong play the following day not going commando on my teammates and killing Sheriff Chubby at the end of the day to keep him from jailing me.

10-24-2006, 05:30 PM	#2852
Fouts College Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: California	I am surprised you let them do it after my ... JAIL HOOPS NOW! post. Villagers should have nailed you to the cross after my death.

10-24-2006, 05:33 PM	#2853
Fouts College Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: California	And FWIW, you won because Lathum outed BK. That move made up for some other mistakes. I thougth the vices would have more of an impact. I thought that, in order to convert, the cowboys would have to hit the right vice. It appears the vices were more for flavor though.

10-24-2006, 05:33 PM	#2854
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	It's funny -- I came up with the everybody reveal BEFORE the game started and when I anticipated being a villager. I think that while it did ultimately cost sndvls and saldana their lives, could have been used as a BS detector making it hard for cowboys to do fake reveals. As for Fouts, we certainly could have picked a better target that night, no doubt about it. But we killed Fouts based on what he was saying, I believe, rather than role. If there was a better target that night I do not believe it was bulletsponge.

10-24-2006, 05:37 PM	#2858
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	alan, what would have happened if i had succumbed to chief rum's womanly wiles the night he approached me...i never really understood what the consequences might have been

10-24-2006, 05:37 PM	#2859
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	I will say that having the execution system that we had in this game, it was easier for Cowboys to block their votes simply because on any given day there were less choices about who to vote for and so voting together didn't necessarily rouse suspicion. The only time we faced pressure about votes was when we needed to lynch GE and I beat hoops to the unvote once there was the role reveal and people wondered why hoops didn't unvote. Obviously we needed GE dead. That said, it felt like there was a lot less voting analysis in this game than in most.

10-24-2006, 05:43 PM	#2863
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	Fouts -- I'm not sure it was as unbalanced as you think. It always felt like we were one decision away from disaster. As was pointed out we were scared terribely about Lathum having been spotted trying to bribe anxiety. This could have easily turned into Lathum being spotted Day 1. We had no idea what kind of seer or bodyguard was out there which made our game cautious as well. I think the fact that both sides think they were so close to disaster suggests it might have been well balanced.

10-24-2006, 05:43 PM	#2864
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Answering a few posts at once.. If you tried to bribe fouts, he would have turned you down regardless of how much money you offered. He was immune to money bribes. Lathum would have been found out offering money to Fouts and then the villagers would have been left knowing Lathum was looking to hire Fouts for some work and they could determine from there whether or not it was an evil act (conversion) or some villager act. Vices did play some part in stumping Chief on some targets he wanted, it played less a part in the cowboys bribes mainly because they just got lucky in who they picked. There were plenty of opportunities for them to get busted on a bribe offer out there. saldana: If Chief had been successful on that roll I think he was looking to get information from you. He would have found out your role was the banker, you had no special night or day actions and what your vices were. He had two other things he could do, he could try to seduce away an item (he was successful with Bullet's gun, and if he had used that on you, he could have stolen your money ; ie: steal your money then when the cowboys killed you no extra money for them, but if they killed Chief they got the extra money instead). His third option is to seduce you into an action. he could have forced you the next day to vote a certain way, or force a night or day action from you (ie: could have forced you to jail someone or release someone from jail). He had to choose which he wanted to try each time, and they had seperate positive and downsides to them however. For you he chose to try to get information from you but failed the roll.

10-24-2006, 05:51 PM	#2868
Fouts College Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: California	And if there were brothers, how do you use random.org to figure out who they are?

10-24-2006, 05:54 PM	#2870
Fouts College Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: California	Thanks Alan. I actually enjoy the couple of days I got to play. Even if I was clueless.

10-24-2006, 06:02 PM	#2872
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	We did not know what would happen if we tried to bribe someone with no vices, but we pretty much decided that wasn't a direction we wanted to go. So naturally the first two people we have Barkeep look at - Fouts and Chubby - have no vices. And we are trying to avoid appearing tired, so that took us through Day 4. Starting off with three cowboys, and being deathly afraid of early seer scans, we went on the offensive with the bribes even though we had incomplete information. Anxiety Night 1 has been documented. Cronin on Night 3 (I think), we had no information on his vices. And Spleen - no knowledge of vices. When I came out with the Brothers reveal I was hoping that people had been forthcoming with their reveals on roles and not held that piece of information back. If they had, I was a dead man but what did I have to lose being in jail with basically everyone in the village suspecting me already? Barkeep did a good job of conveying our paranoia. We started off with only three players, it seemed like 1/2 the village could move around at night and thus put us on locations while we acted at night, and we were sure that one of us was going to be popped by the seer by the end of Night 2 at the latest. We really felt like the game was stacked against us - that was pretty pervasive in our conversation for the time that I was around.

10-24-2006, 06:03 PM	#2873
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Some other random game information. The number of jail cells was equal to the number of cowboys to start the game. Not sure if anyone ever figured that dynamic out during the game. The number of cells would have scaled upwards or downwards with the number of cowboys depending on the size of the game. The next cowboy/cell to be added would have been in 2 more players (at #23) . The next villager to be added would have been the Tailor (generic villager role) and the next cowboy to be added would have been the pickpocket (pretty limited cowboy role.) The Tailor would have jumped into the pool of possible morticians if Spleen had died.

10-24-2006, 06:07 PM	#2874
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Alan, I know that I mentioned this to you in our post-game PMs. I would have liked for the list of roles on the first page to not be all-inclusive - to have some of the assigned roles not be listed on there. I felt very restricted as I tried to come up with a BS fake role reveal when every other person had a role on the list. If all the roles are supposed to be listed, then I don't see any reason to include a "may or may not" statement about the roles - just say that they are all listed, along with a couple of additional roles that are not in the game.

10-24-2006, 08:14 PM	#2876
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Alan, with you explaining all of the mechanics of the game, I am even more impressed by this game and your effort. This was my third game after the Lost game and the beginner game, so those are what I have to judge by. All of WW regulars have done a really awesome job adapting this game into something that continues to be entertaining. Good job to everyone!

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